She has an odd way of tyrannical, granting mages more personal freedom and responsibility than they have known in a long time, if ever, under the circles.
"F*ck the Divine".
Fiona had little interest in diplomacy. Really, Wynne warns her the vote would lead to war and her response was that they couldn't control the actions of the Templars, only theirs.
So, it's not like she didn't expect a war, she probably just overrated their chances. She is not very smart.
Well, they knew the Templars were going to attack them. They said that those among their number who harmed others would be punished with full knowledge that they were going to be dealing with Templar interference at least at first. They either didn't realize that that was going to be a logistical problem, or thought they could handle it and couldn't. Neither of these is a good recommendation for a group that's fighting for independence from the group that was governing them. Or, and this I don't want to believe, they knew they weren't going to be able to do it effectively at first and said they would anyway as justification for their rebellion.
That's completely unfair. When you have a war of genocide and time warping magic, [possibly blood magic] obstructing government administration, you can't expect the mage rebellion to function as it's meant to. Would any government be able to uphold it's laws when they have wars in their doorstep killing their police and diverting their resources? Had Fiona not been manipulated by Alexius through magic no less, perhaps she should have got her **** together. And we know mages are capable of policing themselves, look at the Rivaini seers.
This is about giving mages power? I thought it was about freedom.
A mage being the manifestation of the Maker's will upon Thedas? What greater victory could there be?
That's a theory I never put much stock into, there is no evidence it was magic-no that is merely a fairy tale Tevinter dreamed up after her death to justify their loss of Thedas.
After all if there was actual citable sources for Andraste's magic surely they would have been revealed during the many centuries after her death.
Funny how people never mention the last line of all true power being in Vivienne's hands, meaning the mages don't have any actual power like before
What actual power like before? The power that was easily dismissed without recourse, thus leading to the tension that resulted in rebellion?
That's a theory I never put much stock into, there is no evidence it was magic-no that is merely a fairy tale Tevinter dreamed up after her death to justify their loss of Thedas.
After all if there was actual citable sources for Andraste's magic surely they would have been revealed during the many centuries after her death.
I'm talking about Viv, you muppet.
Funny how people never mention the last line of all true power being in Vivienne's hands, meaning the mages don't have any actual power like before
The major difference between the status quo ante bellum and the status quo after Vivienne's ascension (apart from mages having just a little hope due to the fact that at least one has made it to the top) is that if she says the Templars have to do something, they have to do it, which clearly wasn't true before. Vivienne clearly communicates that she does not approve of some of the stuff the Templars got up to before, and now has the power to do something about it.
That's completely unfair. When you have a war of genocide and time warping magic, [possibly blood magic] obstructing government administration, you can't expect the mage rebellion to function as it's meant to. Would any government be able to uphold it's laws when they have wars in their doorstep killing their police and diverting their resources? Had Fiona not been manipulated by Alexius through magic no less, perhaps she should have got her **** together. And we know mages are capable of policing themselves, look at the Rivaini seers.
No, it's really not. Instead of doing anything about the apostates, the "true rebel mages" washed their hands of them. If Alexius interfered in a way that made this necessary, that's just one more reason Fiona should not have taken that deal. And if the war made it impossible for the mages to do it with or without him, the mages should never have taken the actions they knew would cause the Templars to declare it.
That's a theory I never put much stock into, there is no evidence it was magic-no that is merely a fairy tale Tevinter dreamed up after her death to justify their loss of Thedas.
After all if there was actual citable sources for Andraste's magic surely they would have been revealed during the many centuries after her death.
Given that we aren't entirely sure what happened during Christ's life, and the fact that the Chantry clearly attempted to burn the book this theory is introduced by, I'm not so sure about that. But I don't think that's what Baconer was talking about. I thought he was referring to the fact that both Divines are now mages.
That's completely unfair. When you have a war of genocide and time warping magic, [possibly blood magic] obstructing government administration, you can't expect the mage rebellion to function as it's meant to. Would any government be able to uphold it's laws when they have wars in their doorstep killing their police and diverting their resources? Had Fiona not been manipulated by Alexius through magic no less, perhaps she should have got her **** together.
So, again, mages can police themselves but only if everything is alright. If complications appear, they'll just wash their hands clean of the matter.
Because, really, there is a difference between having resources stretched thin which impacts the efficacy of your police forces who still intend to bring criminals to justice and just saying "eeeeh, f*ck it. You're on your own." because it's risky,
The mages went for option b.
And we know mages are capable of policing themselves, look at the Rivaini seers.
You have an extensive list showing how Seers consistently prevent and punish crimes commited by mages?
You have an extensive list showing how Seers consistently prevent and punish crimes commited by mages?
They were obligated to assist Templars when called upon for assistance, in return for being allowed to live and operate outside the Circle.
They were obligated to assist Templars when called upon for assistance, in return for being allowed to live and operate outside the Circle.
Yes the local garrison that was corrupted enough to allow this mockery of a circle to operate in that fashion.
They were obligated to assist Templars when called upon for assistance, in return for being allowed to live and operate outside the Circle.
The determinant factor there being the Templars.
She has an odd way of tyrannical, granting mages more personal freedom and responsibility than they have known in a long time, if ever, under the circles.
She has an odd way of granting more personal freedom, dragging back the mages by force if they say no.
There's a difference between "more" and "unlimited."
She's definitely an improvement over the old Circle, and I'm not sure not having a Circle would be,
The determinant factor there being the Templars.
Yes? Is there an implication you're trying to push here?
A mage being the manifestation of the Maker's will upon Thedas? What greater victory could there be?
There's a difference between "more" and "unlimited."
She's definitely an improvement over the old Circle, and I'm not sure not having a Circle would be,
Funny how people never mention the last line of all true power being in Vivienne's hands, meaning the mages don't have any actual power like before
"like before"? Did the mages have actual power before?
Essentially what that line means is that that First Enchanters have less autonomy...and so do the Templar commanders. What this adds up to is on average more latitude for mages who aren't First Enchanters because they aren't subject to the whims of local bosses, and Vivienne imposes a more consistent regime which puts much less restriction on them unless there's an actual reason to lock them up. Additionally they are given more opportunity to put their skills on the market if they so choose as long as it isn't a way that might lead to pitchforks and torches. Vivienne is trying to impose a "government of laws not men". The foremost problem with it, is that its questionable whether any of what she is trying to do will outlive her. I expect a backlash the moment she dies.
It is purely by accident that Vivienne happens to be a mage.
A minority being represented by the someone who's privileged and unsympathetic doesn't accomplish half as much as it should.
What makes you think she is unsympathetic? Because she isn't brash or impulsive like Fiona or Adrian?
No, it's really not. Instead of doing anything about the apostates, the "true rebel mages" washed their hands of them. If Alexius interfered in a way that made this necessary, that's just one more reason Fiona should not have taken that deal. And if the war made it impossible for the mages to do it with or without him, the mages should never have taken the actions they knew would cause the Templars to declare it.
The True Rebel mages got most of their leadership blown to hell by the Conclave and Rhys was kidnapped by the Red Templars. The Mage rebellion's itself was disorganized at the time and many were in hiding. Many of them were reeling from the Conclave and Fiona's refuge (which was the only known rebel mage safehouse) was taking in any mage they believed to be refugees. Such a disaster can't be held against the mages when they were infiltrated and sabotaged and not fully represented. It's like if the entire cabinet of the U.S. government were blown up, and the U.S.' leadership was crippled and directionless and an ISIS sleeper cell was appointed head of the military by a president who's way in over his head. Yes Fiona shouldn't have taken the deal but she was manipulated with time magic. How can you expect her to be rational during a state of chaos? Can Celene, or the Wardens, or the Templars not say that they have not been manipulated? All of Thedas was being manipulated by Corypheus, Fiona made a mistake but it was because of Corypheus' doing that ensured she would react that way. Even you have to admit that a person under duress does not act rationally.
Fiona's only crime was asking the mages if they wanted to rebel. She did not strong arm anyone into the rebellion, Rhys voted on behalf of the Aquetarians to fight.
And they decided to fight after much abuse and provocation from the templars. I know you are not empathetic to the mage rebellion, but their grievances were real and worth considering. Not even a dog would have loyalty to its owner after so many constant betrayals. They decided to fight and Fiona doesn't regret it, Adrian doesn't regret it, maybe Rhys doesn't even regret it.
Free choice is a very basic right, my friend.
Nothing excessive about it.
The right to not get eaten by abominations is another one. You're trying to make this situation simple where it's deliberately written not to be.
What makes you think she is unsympathetic? Because she isn't brash or impulsive like Fiona or Adrian?
The right to not get eaten by abominations is another one. You're trying to make this situation simple where it's deliberately written not to be.
Are you surprised?
The right to not get eaten by abominations is another one. You're trying to make this situation simple where it's deliberately written not to be.
The Circle is ineffective anyways. in DA:O, we have Uldred amassing a demon and abomination army and in DA 2 we have Orsino becoming so desperate he made himself a harvester and the mages became either abominations, blood mages, or died fighting or was hiding. Yes mages are demon portals but how is corralling them all in a tiny tower going to prevent that? Seems to me, it just makes the demons job more easier as they know where all the mages are going to be so they can put demons into them like Uldred did. And templars are ok at fighting mages, but blood mages, or blood mages possessed by demons who has full knowledge of even the inept mages' magical powers; and can summon a demon army?- well you have situations like what the Grey Wardens in Adamant went through. In game, sure the protagonist always saved the day but what if one Circle overrun by demons actually were able to form a competent threat and wage a war that none of southern thedas could handle? Abominations to players are just mooks, but what if they had the conviction and the cunning of Corypheus? Spells disaster to me.
The True Rebel mages got most of their leadership blown to hell by the Conclave and Rhys was kidnapped by the Red Templars. The Mage rebellion's itself was disorganized at the time and many were in hiding. Many of them were reeling from the Conclave and Fiona's refuge (which was the only known rebel mage safehouse) was taking in any mage they believed to be refugees. Such a disaster can't be held against the mages when they were infiltrated and sabotaged and not fully represented. It's like if the entire cabinet of the U.S. government were blown up, and the U.S.' leadership was crippled and directionless and an ISIS sleeper cell was appointed head of the military by a president who's too in over his head. Yes Fiona shouldn't have taken the deal but she was manipulated with time magic. How can you expect her to be rational during a state of chaos? Can Celene, or the Wardens, or the Templars not say that they have not been manipulated? All of Thedas was being manipulated by Corypheus, Fiona made a mistake but it was because of Corypheus' doing that ensured she would react that way. Even you have to admit that a person under duress does not act rationally.
Fiona's only crime was asking the mages if they wanted to rebel. She did not strong arm anyone into the rebellion, Rhys voted on behalf of the Aquetarians to fight.
And they decided to fight after much abuse and provocation from the templars. I know you are not empathetic to the mage rebellion, but their grievances were real and worth considering. Not even a dog would have loyalty to its owner after so many constant betrayals. They decided to fight and Fiona doesn't regret it, Adrian doesn't regret it, maybe Rhys doesn't even regret it.
Some of Corypheus's manipulations were pretty good. The Wardens legitimately had reason to think they had no choice other than the one they took. No individual Templar had any reason to know the true power of Red Lyrium (that Corypheus can control you through the Taint) until it was too late.
This one? Sucked. They feared imminent destruction and were sitting right next to a castle that kept out ogres and shrieks not ten years ago.
And hey, you know what the mages could have done that could have made all of this irrelevant if it had worked? Had the Divine pull on Lambert's leash instead of doing what they did.
As for mages not being strongarmed in to rebellion, that's a bit of an oversimplification. The heads of the Fraternities voted to rebel. One of these heads was the Aequitarian head, who was originally a Libertarian and who we don't know actually consulted his new constituents. And either way we know that not all the mages who rebelled wanted to. I don't remember his name, but there is that one mage in Redcliffe who explicitly says "I'm stuck with these clowns because if I try to leave the Templars will murder me."
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