1551 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Being right about Fiona doesn't validate everything else about Vivienne.

No, I was referring to her tone of disdain whenever you discuss the mages problems with her. She genuinely doesn't understand what the hell these malcontents are complaining about.

 

She does understand, but she doesn't agree with their method of retaliation.

 

 

I even remember Vivienne saying "Some of the Circles are quite permissive. Too permissive, in retrospect."

It already is better than they deserve, apparently.

But it is no surprise that someone who's lived in the graces of a duke would be numbed to it all.

 

This is true, and Vivienne occasionally says stupid things, but her approach to fixing the Circles is better than the tepid, indecisive efforts of Cassandra or the absolute disposal of the Circles by Leliana (who then replaces them with nothing).

[Sports72Xtrm]

Some of Corypheus's manipulations were pretty good. The Wardens legitimately had reason to think they had no choice other than the one they took. No individual Templar had any reason to know the true power of Red Lyrium (that Corypheus can control you through the Taint) until it was too late.

 

This one? Sucked. They feared imminent destruction and were sitting right next to a castle that kept out ogres and shrieks not ten years ago.

 

And hey, you know what the mages could have done that could have made all of this irrelevant if it had worked? Had the Divine pull on Lambert's leash instead of doing what they did.

 

As for mages not being strongarmed in to rebellion, that's a bit of an oversimplification. The heads of the Fraternities voted to rebel. One of these heads was the Aequitarian head, who was originally a Libertarian and who we don't know actually consulted his new constituents. And either way we know that not all the mages who rebelled wanted to. I don't remember his name, but there is that one mage in Redcliffe who explicitly says "I'm stuck with these clowns because if I try to leave the Templars will murder me."

The Divine doesn't have any control over the Seekers. You naively believe that Lambert would follow her if given the choice. This guy went behind her back and ordered Evangeline to murder Wynne and Rhys if they discover anything that empowers mages from the Rite of Tranquility.

 

Ironically, Fiona had southern thedas' best interest at heart as she didn't want Ferelden to be implicated in their war and just wanted safe passage to a place where their magic wouldn't be persecuted. You see Fiona as a coward because you want to dehumanize her, her rebellion, you don't empathize with them and scorn them. Hardly unbias. Yes she made a mistake, but it was a human mistake. Like Fenris killing the Fog Warriors for Danarius, sometimes people do things they regret during a moment of weakness.

 

And that guy apparently should have taken arms against the mage rebels like a loyalist then to prove to the templars he was still loyal. Isn't that what Vivienne advocated? What I got from him is that he chose the mage rebellion because he believed in mage solidarity. If he decided to go to Fiona's refuge, it was out of free will. He could have deserted or gone into hiding like the others. It's hardly the conscription you make it out to be.

[The Baconer]

The Divine doesn't have any control over the Seekers. You naively believe that Lambert would follow her if given the choice. This guy went behind her back and ordered Evangeline to murder Wynne and Rhys if they discover anything that empowers mages from the Rite of Tranquility.

 

All things considered, that's not exactly a bad thing. Lambert was such a colossal moron, they'd only need to give him enough rope to eventually hang himself. Mages would have come out looking better for all, Seekers potentially get Order-66'd, win-win for everyone.

[Sports72Xtrm]

All things considered, that's not exactly a bad thing. Lambert was such a colossal moron, they'd only need to give him enough rope to eventually hang himself. Mages would have come out looking better for all, Seekers potentially get Order-66'd, win-win for everyone.

That's under the assumption Lambert is inept at the politcal game. I don't know if he had lived the war would have been any easier. It would have played out differently most definitely without Corypheus' interference.

[MisterJB]

The Circle is ineffective anyways. in DA:O, we have Uldred amassing a demon and abomination army and in DA 2 we have Orsino becoming so desperate he made himself a harvester and the mages became either abominations, blood mages, or died fighting or was hiding.

 

How many civillians were killed?
None. Why? Because Uldred and Orsino were in a Circle removed from the population. The Circle works.

 

 

 

Yes? Is there an implication you're trying to push here?

If there are Templars and they are doing most of the work, we can't really use it as an example of mages taking the initiative to police themselves.

Mages working as private contractors, maybe.

 

 

[The Baconer]

That's under the assumption Lambert is inept at the politcal game. I don't know if he had lived the war would have been any easier. It would have played out differently most definitely without Corypheus' interference.

 

That's not an assumption. None of Lambert's great endeavors in Asunder (or even before it *cough*) were successful.

 

 

If there are Templars and they are doing most of the work, we can't really use it as an example of mages taking the initiative to police themselves.

Mages working as private contractors, maybe.

 

We can absolutely use that as an example of mages working to prevent and punish mage-related crimes. Apparently it was a successful enough program that they were trusted to live outside of Chantry surveillance.

[Illegitimus]

 

And that guy apparently should have taken arms against the mage rebels like a loyalist then to prove to the templars he was still loyal. Isn't that what Vivienne advocated? 

 

No, that's not what Viv advocated.  She kept her head down until the Inquisition showed up as an organization that would put an end to the mage rebellion but not kill her.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Circle is ineffective anyways. in DA:O, we have Uldred amassing a demon and abomination army and in DA 2 we have Orsino becoming so desperate he made himself a harvester and the mages became either abominations, blood mages, or died fighting or was hiding. Yes mages are demon portals but how is corralling them all in a tiny tower going to prevent that? Seems to me, it just makes the demons job more easier as they know where all the mages are going to be so they can put demons into them like Uldred did. And templars are ok at fighting mages, but blood mages, or blood mages possessed by demons who has full knowledge of even the inept mages' magical powers; and can summon a demon army?- well you have situations like what the Grey Wardens in Adamant went through. In game, sure the protagonist always saved the day but what if one Circle overrun by demons actually were able to form a competent threat and wage a war that none of southern thedas could handle? Abominations to players are just mooks, but what if they had the conviction and the cunning of Corypheus? Spells disaster to me.

The Templars had the Ferelden Circle contained, and could have sent for an army or two as backup. If the demons know where most of the mages are, so does the entire rest of the continent and its Templars. The threat isn't that abominations will form, because lets face it, that's going to happen. The threat is that they'll form in seclusion and have some time to get their act together or escape into a populated area. (Speaking of "populated area" it kinda helps that the Ferelden Circle is on an island.)

 

The Templars have had to burn down an entire Circle an average of once every hundred years. That's horrible, but even assuming that it was always justifiable (and that's questionable) the long period of time between the Annulments and the fact that there's more than one Circle location means the Circles usually work. Probably because if the "demon portals" are stuck in with any abomination that forms, the abomination is also stuck in with magic-blocking knights and a large number of the guys who are half the danger of an abomination.

 

 

Employing preventive and counter measures against abominations hardly is mutually exclusive to it.

To use this issue alone as the sole justification for any methods used is also oversimplifying it.

This issue alone seems to me to be enough to justify putting restrictions on mages, and while I can also point to the abuse of magic by apostates I think the abominations would be enough on its own whereas the abuse of magic in and of itself wouldn't be.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Templars had the Ferelden Circle contained, and could have sent for an army or two as backup. If the demons know where most of the mages are, so does the entire rest of the continent and its Templars. The threat isn't that abominations will form, because lets face it, that's going to happen. The threat is that they'll form in seclusion and have some time to get their act together or escape into a populated area. (Speaking of "populated area" it kinda helps that the Ferelden Circle is on an island.)

 

The Templars have had to burn down an entire Circle an average of once every hundred years. That's horrible, but even assuming that it was always justifiable (and that's questionable) the long period of time between the Annulments and the fact that there's more than one Circle location means the Circles usually work. Probably because if the "demon portals" are stuck in with any abomination that forms, the abomination is also stuck in with magic-blocking knights and a large number of the guys who are half the danger of an abomination.

When a mage becomes an abomination, they aren't just Circle apprentices who cast the measly mundane fireballs. They are dominated by beings of pure magic, possibly aware of shape-shifting techniques to escape the tower, can take full utilization of Avexis' dragon controlling techniques, or Feynriels' dreaming abilities. Even if they don't have special innate abilities, demons are masters of blood magic which kills templars and summon manifesting demonic thralls to tank for them. A real abomination, who actually casts spells and doesn't just claw at you, would take an army to fight. The Ferelden Circle, had Uldred corrupted what remained of the Circle, would have been fighting an army of those things. The Ferelden templars would be overrun by then and all of them turned into Thralls. An abomination, with human creativity and cunning, and their magical power, could wage a war that could triumph over templars if they focus on creating more possessions and dispersing.

 

The Ferelden Circle was barely contained due to the decisive action of the HOF, but if it wasn't I wonder if it would have created a threat possibly rivaling the blight. I see the obvious danger of mage abominations corralled together than a single abomination, though still potentially dangerous, is easier to subdue if not corralled with those like them.

[MisterJB]

 

We can absolutely use that as an example of mages working to prevent and punish mage-related crimes. Apparently it was a successful enough program that they were trusted to live outside of Chantry surveillance.

It's not applicable to this mage rebellion since their intent is to police themselves whereas in Rivain, if we believe the codex, the Templars police the mages with occasional help from Seers. If the mages were arguing for more freedoms in return to helping Templars pursue dangerous mages, it would be more appropriate.

 

And their freedom is probably more due to a third of Rivain supporting than in anyone recognizing they aren't dangerous.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

When a mage becomes an abomination, they aren't just Circle apprentices who cast the measly mundane fireballs. They are dominated by beings of pure magic

 

Which thankfully can still be turned off with the snap of the finger by a Templar, that's the kicker, Templar abilities work on Demonic magic too.

 

Ser summed it up pretty bad assely too.

 

"We deny the mage his magic. We deny the demon its magic. We are the beacon of right on the battlefield.

[The Baconer]

It's not applicable to this mage rebellion since their intent is to police themselves whereas in Rivain, if we believe the codex, the Templars police the mages with occasional help from Seers. If the mages were arguing for more freedoms in return to helping Templars pursue dangerous mages, it would be more appropriate.

 

I believe such arrangements are more preferable than the homologous divisions of power that were in place before.

 

 

And their freedom is probably more due to a third of Rivain supporting than in anyone recognizing they aren't dangerous.

 

They are recognized as dangerous, just not dangerous enough to be confined to the Circles, even according to the local Chantry.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Which thankfully can still be turned off with the snap of the finger by a Templar, that's the kicker, Templar abilities work on Demonic magic too.

 

Ser summed it up pretty bad assely too.

 

"We deny the mage his magic. We deny the demon its magic. We are the beacon of right on the battlefield.

If the blood mage hasn't mind controlled you or use some sort of stun and have you bleeding out of every orifice, then he'll have a rage demon pop behind them and pluck out the templars' heart. And then there's the case that pride demons have both physical and magical attacks. It gets complicated.

[Master Warder Z_]

If the blood mage hasn't mind controlled you or use some sort of stun and have you bleeding out of every orifice, then he'll have a rage demon pop behind them and pluck out the templars' heart. And then there's the case that pride demons have both physical and magical attacks. It gets complicated.

 

Right because every demon knows of blood magic and how to employ it or open tears in the veil and allow more demons into the waking world, and because Templars are easy to catch unaware and because the demon is somehow immune to being beheaded.

 

Templars are good at killing demons and mages because they negate their primary advantage, because they are made to do that job.

[Drasanil]

She has an odd way of granting more personal freedom, dragging back the mages by force if they say no.

 

You have the personal freedom to practice medicine with out a licence, doesn't make getting thrown in jail for it wrong. A bunch of mages freely chose to go rogue [again] and start another rebellion [again] after the rebellion agreed to have the issue settled by the Inquisition the first time around.

 

You can't blame Vivienne for crushing the threat to a barely stabilised Chantry/Orlais/Ferelden and settling the issue by force when clearly those mages were simply not interested in getting anything but their own way consequences be damned. 

[Kakistos_]

The Dales was wipped so their society doesn't exist anymore. The Dalish, Avvars, Chansid have very low numbers and we saw mages from the first 2 groups yo f*ck up and cause a lot of destruction, there are a lot of problems that comes from their mage (werewolf curse and possesed dragon comes yo mind).
Get e Wardens have almost destroyed the Thedas because of their mages.
And? They werent innocents, they were criminals breaking the law, they should have surrendered.

I did not mention the Dales but the Dalish. The Dales were Destroyed by the CHANTRY. Twice. NOT by their free Mages. Their decedents and beliefs live on in the Dalish. The Dalish, Avvar and Chasind have smaller numbers in comparison to larger nations but their strength is not insignificant. They all have their share of military feats and have been counted as threats by larger powers. You know this.

 

If they were nothing more than little bands of people camping in the woods then we would have never heard about them. The Avvar have twice been a threat to Orlais, the strongest nation in Thedas. And yes, they have used Magic as a weapon of war. The Chantry and even the Qunari do the same. If the Dalish were weak the Grey Wardens would not bother with them. The Casind warred with Tevinter and their legends still inspire fear. If their numbers are as insignificant as you would paint them then one catastrophe, one Abomination would wipe them out.

 

As I have repeated they have existed with Free Mages for thousands of years. Clearly they are doing something right. You cannot dismiss them just because they do not fit your erroneous narrative. Rivain does not have low numbers and has too existed since before the Chantry with Free Mages. Rivain participated in the Battle of the Silent Plains where Archdemon Dumat was killed, thanks to Mages. They also successfully rebelled against Tevinter. The Grey Wardens would not exist without Mages as it was they who discovered how to kill the Archdemon Dumat. Wardens did not almost destroy Southern Thedas, Corypheus did. They were tricked and put under his thralldom just like the Red Templars were.

 

Transplanting methods used by minuscule communities at local level and applying them to nations numbering in the millions with multiple settlements across a vast territory with the largest containing hundreds of thousands of inhabitants and all obeying a central authority.
Well, I don't see why not.

Just ignore the fact that Keepers and Seers and Shamans rule and that is one of the veryconsequences of mage freedom that the
Circles safeguard against, regardless of whether this rule is achieved through force or cultural domination.

You'd think Dean would havê said this enough but just because the culture of the Dales or Traditional Rivain persist, it doesn't mean their mages are not causing devastation. It just means it is not enough to wipe them out.

But yeah, sure. Let's tell Orlais they are weakening their communities by removing the mages. Just look at the powerhouses that are the Dalish, Avvar and Rivain.
Now, they are something.

See my post above. These societies are not miniscule. I think you are fully aware of this. Keepers, Seers and Shamans do not rule. Keepers lead but do not hold absolute power as Keeper is only one of several prominent positions within a Clan. Their position is one of tradition, they hold no whip and force no one to follow. Seers, also like Keepers, act as Spiritual Guides but do not rule.. The Avvar Shamans do not rule, the Thane does. The Shamans or Augars advise the Thane and other Free Mages.

 

The Circle failed. These cultures with Free Mages have not. In all three cases Mages are promoted to their position out of tradition and use their talents to the benefit of their people. If these Mages, who have been free for hundreds of years, regularly caused devastation do you not think these traditions would stop?

 

Why is it that the normal people of Thedas believe tbe Circles to be necessary?

1-Because mages can maliciously hurt others with their great powers.

2-Because they don't believe mages will prosecute crimes commited by mages against normals.

3-Because they don't wish the return of Tevinter.

4-Because mages can be possessed.

Só, let us see.

1-There were groups of mages burning people alive in the Hinterlands for fun because they believed magic gave them the right.

2-The mages in Redcliff completely failed to prevent or punish these crimes commited by their fellow mages against normals.

3-They sided with Tevinter and assisted in the occupation of Redcliff.

So, 3 out of 4.

"Normal" people of Thedas believe that Circles are necessary because the Chantry tells them so. Just like "normal" people believed that Templars were infallible. Just like "normal" people believe that Elves are lesser because of their race.

 

It is stated multiple times that those Mages were no longer affiliated with those in Redcliff and that the Templars were causing just as much death and destruction. Ignoring that the Templars were just as destructive is willful ignorance. You know full well that the Mages did not assist with the occupation of Redcliffe. The tone of your post suggest that you are among those who believe that Tevinter is "EVIL". Yes, the Mages "allied" with Tevinter, if you want to call it that and so are the Dwarves of Orzammar.

 

But how have the Avvar and the Rivaini addressed the threat of possession? 

Because the Avvar and Rivani Mages are unrestricted in their use of Magic both have developed methods to remove Spirits from their hosts. This is something that a Circle Mage would incorrectly tell you is impossible. The Avvar also foster beneficial relationships with local Spirits on behalf of their society. The Spirits help look out for Mages vulnerable to Possession as well as ward of Demons making their community safer for all.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Because the Avvar and Rivani Mages are unrestricted in their use of Magic both have developed methods to remove Spirits from their hosts. This is something that a Circle Mage would incorrectly tell you is impossible. The Avvar also foster beneficial relationships with local Spirits on behalf of their society. The Spirits help look out for Mages vulnerable to Possession as well as ward of Demons making their community safer for all.

While I don't have the time to address most of what's going on in this thread, (I'm currently sitting in my GM's living room hoping the mechanics argument ends and the game starts back up) this bit I can just refute right off. Circle mages can remove demons from mages if they have enough time and resources. This has been known since the first freaking game.

 

Although I am curious as to your source as to the Avvar and Rivaini mages being able to do that since I don't remember ever encountering any evidence of that. In addition, I would think that the Chantry would search out and use this technique if they thought it existed due to provably being willing to remove demons without killing the host. (The reason I think this is because the Chantry technique requires lyrium, which I strongly doubt the Avvar can find. If they thought there was a way to get around that requirement, the Circle would want to know what it was.)

[MisterJB]

Rebel mages distributing propaganda phamplets in villages when most people can't read.

Check your privilege, mages.

[TK514]

 

Although I am curious as to your source as to the Avvar and Rivaini mages being able to do that since I don't remember ever encountering any evidence of that. In addition, I would think that the Chantry would search out and use this technique if they thought it existed due to provably being willing to remove demons without killing the host. (The reason I think this is because the Chantry technique requires lyrium, which I strongly doubt the Avvar can find. If they thought there was a way to get around that requirement, the Circle would want to know what it was.)

 

I think it's mentioned in the Jaws of Boredom DLC.

[MisterJB]

 

If it wasn't so insensitive to use real people's suffering to win an internet argument about videogame politics, I would consider posting some photos of people who suffered third degree burns and then ask pro-mages if they would really feel so safe around people who can do that to others with a snap of their fingers.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Napalm jelly!

[thesuperdarkone2]

If it wasn't so insensitive to use real people's suffering to win an internet argument about videogame politics, I would consider posting some photos of people who suffered third degree burns and then ask pro-mages if they would really feel so safe around people who can do that to others with a snap of their fingers.

Coming from the guy who wants his Mage lover and child free and away from circles.

I could also post pictures of prison rape but that might go against actually serve a point against pro-Templars. Also, yes I would feel safe with a Mage just as I would feel safe against a complete stranger who could just as easily rob, kill, stab, or rape me.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Funny how people never mention the last line of all true power being in Vivienne's hands, meaning the mages don't have any actual power like before

 

That is a pretty big non-sequitur you got there.

 

Vivienne holding that power in itself is a very big deal for all mages, not just herself. It sets precedent for magekind holding titles/office. If you ask me, that is a much greater (in a sense of being both superior and having more impact) than just cutting them loose on society.

 

'Not like Vivienne is going to rule forever.

[thesuperdarkone2]

That is a pretty big non-sequitur you got there.

Vivienne holding that power in itself is a very big deal for all mages, not just herself. It sets precedent for magekind holding titles/office. If you ask me, that is a much greater (in a sense of being both superior and having more impact) than just cutting them loose on society.

'Not like Vivienne is going to rule forever.

The other candidates make it seem like their changes will last last their reigns. Vivienne's ending guarantees that all her benefits will be gone the minute she isn't divine.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The other candidates make it seem like their changes will last last their reigns. Vivienne's ending guarantees that all her benefits will be gone the minute she isn't divine.

I am curious how you figure. Bear in mind I haven't seen the endings.