1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Looking at these arguments, I have come to the conclusion that mages need some form of supervision. Be it from other mages or an institution.

I'm with you on mages need some form of supervision or to be under surveillance. For their own sake as well as others. I believe the Templars need to exist as long as people who wield magic existed, but the power abusing or all the problem in the past should not be overlooked, and whether the Inquisition is suitable to supervise the mages only time will tell. On other details such as our personal preference on who should be the Divine, who rules Orlais, whether Cass should restore the Seekers or let it die..well on those detail let's agree to disagree.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

You would paint finding common ground as a weakness? The Inquisition would help restore order and subdue the templars persecuting free mages and the mage rebels are able to allocate resources to bring lawless apostates to justice, fight corypheus, and seal the breach. It's literally a win-win scenario for everyone involved considering the templars just told the Inquisition to go to hell until they gather a big enough petition from nobles to soothe their egos.

 

If we are looking at the mage-templar approach or invitation rationally, one will end up approaching the mages over the templars.

 

Why ?

 

1) The Templars, as you stated, told the Inquisition to go to hell. Fiona did request your aid in Val Royeaux.

 

2) Theirinfal Redoubt is far and isolated from any civilization. It is also not very close to Haven which is the Inquisition's initial base of operations. On the other hand, Redcliffe is close of Haven and heavily populated by citizens.

 

3) You get exposed to Time Magic as soon as you enter the main town of Redcliffe. The potential problem is being shown before you even meet Alexius. With the Templars, it is all hidden and covered up until the middle of the questline.

 

4) Tevinter occupation of a region in Ferelden and its subsequent enslavement of a large group of mages is a far more pressing issue than a group of Templars holed up in an abandoned fortress somewhere.

 

Unless you are playing as a Chantry Loyalist or someone who has a phobia towards magic, there is very little reason to take the Templar path.

[Iakus]

If we are looking at the mage-templar approach or invitation rationally, one will end up approaching the mages over the templars.

 

Why ?

 

1) The Templars, as you stated, told the Inquisition to go to hell. Fiona did request your aid in Val Royeaux.

 

2) Theirinfal Redoubt is far and isolated from any civilization. It is also not very close to Haven which is the Inquisition's initial base of operations. On the other hand, Redcliffe is close of Haven and heavily populated by citizens.

 

3) You get exposed to Time Magic as soon as you enter the main town of Redcliffe. The potential problem is being shown before you even meet Alexius. With the Templars, it is all hidden and covered up until the middle of the questline.

 

4) Tevinter occupation of a region in Ferelden and its subsequent enslavement of a large group of mages is a far more pressing issue than a group of Templars holed up in an abandoned fortress somewhere.

 

Unless you are playing as a Chantry Loyalist or someone who has a phobia towards magic, there is very little reason to take the Templar path.

1) Except Leliana, Josephine and a bunch of nobles get together and arrange a summit (also, technically it wasn't the Templars who told you to go to hell, though that wasn't clear yet)

 

2) So?  It's not like you go in looking fro a fight.

 

3) The scope of said problem appears pretty limited unless you go further into the quest, past the point of no return

 

4) It is a pressing issue.  But one that it technically Alistair's and/or Anora's problem.  Plus there's this whole rogue army of highly trained mage hunters bunkering downin one of Ferelden's old forts.

[TK514]

3) You get exposed to Time Magic as soon as you enter the main town of Redcliffe. The potential problem is being shown before you even meet Alexius. With the Templars, it is all hidden and covered up until the middle of the questline.

 

4) Tevinter occupation of a region in Ferelden and its subsequent enslavement of a large group of mages is a far more pressing issue than a group of Templars holed up in an abandoned fortress somewhere.

 

 

These two in specific are equally good arguments for getting the Templars on your side before tackling the mages.

 

When going after mages with mage slaves using an unknown type of magic, which is better?  Rushing in with no idea what you're doing and hoping for the best, or going to get the folks who's entire purpose for existing is to shut down magic?

[dragonflight288]

My thoughts precisely. The moment Leliana reforms the chantry mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas.

 

The moment a softened Leliana does that.

 

A hardened Leliana will have the Chantry run with the blood of those who disagree. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The moment a softened Leliana does that.

 

A hardened Leliana will have the Chantry run with the blood of those who disagree. 

 

That's the thing with Leliana. She is not weak but she is fragile. Her emotions change easily, based on small incidents.

 

Cassandra on the other hand doesn't do that. Which is why she is the best choice for Divine IMO.

 

Heck, when you go into the bleak future during In Hushed Whispers, you will see that Leliana is cynical and broken. You see Vivienne broken and resigned to her fate. However, you see Cassandra there reciting the Chant of Light, even when all hope is lost.

[dragonflight288]

That's the thing with Leliana. She is not weak but she is fragile. Her emotions change easily, based on small incidents.

 

Cassandra on the other hand doesn't do that. Which is why she is the best choice for Divine IMO.

 

Heck, when you go into the bleak future during In Hushed Whispers, you will see that Leliana is cynical and broken. You see Vivienne broken and resigned to her fate. However, you see Cassandra there reciting the Chant of Light, even when all hope is lost.

 

I also think Cassandra would make a great Divine, but she doesn't have the patience or the temperament to deal with the politics and the clerics who disagree with her.

 

Not saying that's a bad thing, but Cassandra is also something akin to a blunt-force-trauma approach in how to deal with problems, and some gamers may not think that's what the Chantry needs.

 

Which is why there is such fascinating debate on who actually makes the best Divine. 

[Shienis]

If we are looking at the mage-templar approach or invitation rationally, one will end up approaching the mages over the templars.

 

Why ?

 

1) The Templars, as you stated, told the Inquisition to go to hell. Fiona did request your aid in Val Royeaux.

 

2) Theirinfal Redoubt is far and isolated from any civilization. It is also not very close to Haven which is the Inquisition's initial base of operations. On the other hand, Redcliffe is close of Haven and heavily populated by citizens.

 

3) You get exposed to Time Magic as soon as you enter the main town of Redcliffe. The potential problem is being shown before you even meet Alexius. With the Templars, it is all hidden and covered up until the middle of the questline.

 

4) Tevinter occupation of a region in Ferelden and its subsequent enslavement of a large group of mages is a far more pressing issue than a group of Templars holed up in an abandoned fortress somewhere.

 

Unless you are playing as a Chantry Loyalist or someone who has a phobia towards magic, there is very little reason to take the Templar path.

 

You don't need to be Chantry loyalist or phobia of magic to go see the templars.

 

When you're leaving Val Royeaux:

 

And if you're listening carefully to what the Lord Seeker, Cassandra, Barris and that random thug say, you get a hint that the templars might be in trouble:

 - Lord Seeker Lucius speaks like extremely extreme fanatic: "The only destiny that demands respect here is mine." Really? What kind of sane person would say that?

 - Cassandra says he's completely different than before - it can mean he's drunk with power, but also he could be influence by someone/something (and not just mind control or demons, he could be bribed or blackmailed)

 - Barris was sympathising with the Inquisition - if there's one, there might be more

(this is approximately how my thought process went during my first playthrough, when I had absolutely no idea what awaits me further and tried to avoid any spoilers)

 

Now, Fiona only invites you to Redcliffe. There's no indication that mages are in any greater danger than anyone else. (the war, the Breach, winter...)

"Take this as an invitation to Redcliffe. An alliance could help us both." Which is much friendlier offer than what Lucius said, I agree. But no sign of danger/mystery/WTF.

 

 

And when I returned to Haven, I already had enough points to go to the templars, so I went there. Until my next playthrough when I went to mages (to see how it looks like from their side) I knew nothing about time magic.

 

 

Conclusion: At the time you're leaving Val Royeaux, you have about as much reason to go to templars (want to find out what's going on with them and recruit them) as you have to go to mages (want to have easy conversation about terms of alliance). It really depends on your preferences.

[Deztyn]

I used to take Cole and Vivienne out in the same party hoping to see Vivienne get frustrated and upset exactly like that, but eventually I stopped because it seemed to only result in poor Cole receiving verbal abuse from her, what with referring to him as a pet and an "it" and such. Glad to see evidence that it really was getting to her.

Wonderful isnt, it?

How he can dredge up horrors like walking through the place you're responsible for, seeing the mangled corpses of your charges and knowing that they were brutally murdered by their fellow mages simply for having a different ideology and wanting to stay in the towers. And then he can put your trauma on display for everyone else to see too.

My thoughts precisely. The moment Leliana reforms the chantry mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas.

And it will disappear as soon as the neighbor girl accidentally freezes her entire family to death while arguing with her dad about curfew.

The Chantry isn't responsible for the fear and hate of magic.

Magic is responsible.

Pretty words and impassioned speeches might sway people's hearts for a time, but as soon as people start having to deal with the problems magic causes, that fear will return. The worst thing about Leliana as Divine is that she's the only one capable of truly changing the tide of public opinion, but that goodwill is wasted in the absence of any methods to deal with magical threats or ensure the safety and schooling of young mages. The new mage college does not have the money or manpower to effectively see to those issues across nations. The Chantry is in every city and village, the mages can't be. So when magical troubles appear, and they will, there won't be anyone in a position to do anything about it.

There's your "For the moment." qualifier.

If we are looking at the mage-templar approach or invitation rationally, one will end up approaching the mages over the templars.
[...]
Unless you are playing as a Chantry Loyalist or someone who has a phobia towards magic, there is very little reason to take the Templar path.

You also have the option of simply believing Cullen and thinking that unknown magic + unknown magic could have nasty repercussions and the people who can nullify magic instead are the safer choice.

The game does lead you towards the mages, but there are compelling reasons for an Inquisitor to choose the templars anyway.

Even if the Inquisitor wants to help with the mage situation, as TK said, you may still want to seek a templar alliance first. It's very easy to imagine the Inquisitor getting to Redcliffe, realizing she's out of her depth and heading for the templars hoping for assistance with the Breach and dealing with Redcliffe. Of course she has no way of knowing that by then it will be too late.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Even if the Inquisitor wants to help with the mage situation, as TK said, you may still want to seek a templar alliance first. It's very easy to imagine the Inquisitor getting to Redcliffe, realizing she's out of her depth and heading for the templars hoping for assistance with the Breach and dealing with Redcliffe. Of course she has no way of knowing that by then it will be too late.

I seem to remember it being made fairly clear in the radial menu that if you pick the mages, the Templars are going to be left to whatever's happening in their ranks. I can only assume the same is made abundantly clear if you pick Templars. Or were you speaking from the perspective of an Inquisitor who can't see the radial menu?

[Iakus]

I seem to remember it being made fairly clear in the radial menu that if you pick the mages, the Templars are going to be left to whatever's happening in their ranks. I can only assume the same is made abundantly clear if you pick Templars. Or were you speaking from the perspective of an Inquisitor who can't see the radial menu?

That's metagaming.

 

My first playthru I ignored that statement and wondered what I would role-play.  And yes, I decided that meeting with the Templars before going into a situation with potentially hostile mages would have been the smarter move.

[Deztyn]

Yep. I meant from the viewpoint of the Inquisitor.

Sidenote: I hate those messages.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yep. I meant from the viewpoint of the Inquisitor.

Sidenote: I hate those messages.

Speaking as someone who accidentally romanced Zevran once, I really don't mind the consequences of whatever you do being made fairly clear.

 

Edit: Although I suppose you can argue that this one shouldn't have been made. I suppose it does make the big shock in In Your Heart Shall Burn less right the #(*@ out of nowhere, and you can argue that that's not a good thing.

[The Baconer]

I'm with you on mages need some form of supervision or to be under surveillance. For their own sake as well as others. I believe the Templars need to exist as long as people who wield magic existed, but the power abusing or all the problem in the past should not be overlooked, and whether the Inquisition is suitable to supervise the mages only time will tell. On other details such as our personal preference on who should be the Divine, who rules Orlais, whether Cass should restore the Seekers or let it die..well on those detail let's agree to disagree.

 

Finally, a kindred spirit :>

[Boost32]

I'm with you on mages need some form of supervision or to be under surveillance. For their own sake as well as others. I believe the Templars need to exist as long as people who wield magic existed, but the power abusing or all the problem in the past should not be overlooked, and whether the Inquisition is suitable to supervise the mages only time will tell. On other details such as our personal preference on who should be the Divine, who rules Orlais, whether Cass should restore the Seekers or let it die..well on those detail let's agree to disagree.

I know you support Gaspard and doesn't like the Seekers, but you don't like Cass as Divine? Doea it mean you like Leliana as Divine? Damn WCA, I expected better

[MisterJB]

You would paint finding common ground as a weakness? The Inquisition would help restore order and subdue the templars persecuting free mages and the mage rebels are able to allocate resources to bring lawless apostates to justice

Who's bringing them to justice?

[Iakus]

 

Who's bringing them to justice?

 

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 

The question that just keeps coming around no matter what gets proposed 

[GranfalloonMembr]

The moment a softened Leliana does that.

 

A hardened Leliana will have the Chantry run with the blood of those who disagree. 

 

I didn't take this post as saying Vivienne was a better candidate, but it doesn't sound like she's any better than a hardened Leliana. Wiki says:

 

Three revolts follow in quick succession, and her response is immediate and vicious.

 

I can't think of any situation where you can say a revolt was "viciously" put down that doesn't involve blood being spilled or excessive force.

 

It also says that while mages rise quickly in the new Circle with more freedom and responsibility, she makes sure all true power lies with her. So she's still the same selfish person as always.

 

Of the three possible Divines, Vivienne is the only one who seems completely unsympathetic to mages. Leliana wants them to be free. Cassandra tells you that she used to think the Rite of Tranquility was a neccesary evil, but she's questioning a lot of what she once believed, and she the fact that she thought it a necessary evil (as opposed to simply necessary) speaks well of her. I forget exactly what all I talked about with her, but long story short: she believes that a lot of the things which were done to mages over the years were wrong.

 

Vivienne acts like everything is their fault.

[Drasanil]

Vivienne acts like everything is their fault.

 

That's because everything is their [the rebel mages] fault.

 

Mage blows up a Chantry and a Grand Cleric, not long after that another mage tries to assasssinate the Divine. Their reaction? "Hey I know! Lets start a rebellion, attack the [much more popular] templars and cast down the circles [the one thing 99% of the population thinks keeps them safe]! That'll prove we're on the up and up!" herpaderp

[The Baconer]

That's because everything is their [the rebel mages] fault.

 

It's not, but that isn't her position anyway.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

That's because everything is their [the rebel mages] fault.

 

Mage blows up a Chantry and a Grand Cleric, not long after that another mage tries to assassinate the Divine. Their reaction? "Hey I know! Lets start a rebellion, attack the [much more popular] templars and cast down the circles [the one thing 99% of the population thinks keeps them safe]! That'll prove we're on the up and up!" herpaderp

 

The blame for blowing up the Kirkwall's Chantry is on Anders, and Anders alone. As I recall, Anders is a Grey Warden mage/abomination. You will not see Vivienne or any Chantry Loyalist mention this fact, they will happily gloss over it.

 

Logically speaking, the Chantry should have actually gone to war against or declared an Exalted March or declared Right of Annulment against Grey Wardens or Grey Warden mages. Ah, but we know the Chantry does not have the guts to do that now, don't we ? They would rather march on Circle Mages instead of Grey Warden mages because they know they would get their collective arses kicked hard by the Wardens.

 

The mage rebellion has valid reasons. Especially since Templars and the Chantry decided that they should clamp down hard on the wrong group of mages. They should have gone and hunt for Warden mages and mages who let spirits willingly possess them. Where the mage rebellion was wrong was when it went full retard in Redcliffe.

[Drasanil]

The blame for blowing up the Kirkwall's Chantry is on Anders, and Anders alone. As I recall, Anders is a Grey Warden mage/abomination. You will not see Vivienne or any Chantry Loyalist mention this fact, they will happily gloss over it.

 

Logically speaking, the Chantry should have actually gone to war against or declared an Exalted March or declared Right of Annulment against Grey Wardens or Grey Warden mages. Ah, but we know the Chantry does not have the guts to do that now, don't we ? They would rather march on Circle Mages instead of Grey Warden mages because they know they would get their collective arses kicked hard by the Wardens.

 

Sure, the relevant part here is Grey Warden, not mage. After all everyone knows the joining is what gives ordinary muggles magical abilities and makes them susceptible to demonic possession.

 

I mean sure Anders abandoned the wardens, identified only as a mage, spent years working for "mage freedom", had extensive contact with disgruntled mages and a known history of anti-circle sentiment. But that's no excuse for mistaking all his actions for that of mages as opposed to the True Conspirators™ the Grey Warden Order!

 

  

[thesuperdarkone2]

Sure, the relevant part here is Grey Warden, not mage. After all everyone knows the joining is what gives ordinary muggles magical abilities and makes them susceptible to demonic possession.

I mean sure Anders abandoned the wardens, identified only as a mage, spent years working for "mage freedom", had extensive contact with disgruntled mages and a known history of anti-circle sentiment. But that's no excuse for mistaking all his actions for that of mages as opposed to the True Conspirators™ the Grey Warden Order!

And that justifies killing every Mage in kirkwall and subsequently getting rid of all those oriviledges Vivienne loves to talk about for something they didn't even do?

Would you still say the same if Meredith decided to kill all Fereldens in Kirkwall because anders is from Fereldens?

[MisterJB]

 

The increased restrictions did not come about just due to Anders but rather the natural result of the tensions which had been pilling up for sometime.

 

Fiona is ellected to Grand Enchanter. Being belligerent, she tries to declare the Circles independent. In response, the Divine closes the College. Afterwards, the Resolutionists begin bombing public places.

Anders destroys the Chantry, Meredith Annuls the Kirkwall Circle. Outraged, some Circles rebel and the Templars Annul those. Trying to maintain the Order, they restrict the privileges of the mages. There is an attempt of the life of the Divine and the Lord Seeker is assigned to the White Spire, etc.

Really, this is all to be expected.

[The Baconer]

Outraged, some Circles rebel and the Templars Annul those.

 

The only Annulment to occur after Kirkwall was Dairsmuid, and that was after both the mages and the Templars went rogue.