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[Boost32]

The only Annulment to occur after Kirkwall was Dairsmuid, and that was after both the mages and the Templars went rogue.

It was before, not after.
It was the Chantry who send the Seekers there.

[The Baconer]

It was before, not after.
It was the Chantry who send the Seekers there.

 

That's what the writer of the note assumes, and it's possible that the local Chantry did, but it also makes an explicit reference to what happened at the White Spire (Asunder), and the following uprising. This makes it chronologically impossible for the Dairsmuid Annulment to occur before the Mage/Templar rebellion.

[Boost32]

That's what the writer of the note assumes, and it's possible that the local Chantry did, but it also makes an explicit reference to what happened at the White Spire (Asunder), and the following uprising. This makes it chronologically impossible for the Dairsmuid Annulment to occur before the Mage/Templar rebellion.

It could be at the same time, isnt there a time gap from Lambert imprisioning them and both factions going rogue?

[The Baconer]

It could be at the same time, isnt there a time gap from Lambert imprisioning them and both factions going rogue?

 

Not if the other Circles had already broke off from the Chantry, no. It would have happened before the Nevarran Accords were officially nullified by Lambert, but the rebellion was already in full swing.

[Boost32]

Not if the other Circles had already broke off from the Chantry, no. It would have happened before the Nevarran Accords were officially nullified by Lambert, but the rebellion was already in full swing.

Or maybe its just Bioware screwing up with the timeline, it wouldnt be the first time.

[The Baconer]

Or maybe its just Bioware screwing up with the timeline, it wouldnt be the first time.

 

It's dated 9:40, this is not out of place on the timeline.

[Barquiel]

This is why the common man fears and hates mages. This isn't a fear you can unlearn, it isn't a fear that is entirely unjust or misplaced, and it isn't a fear you can blame on Chantry propaganda.

Of course I can. We do not see such fear with the Dalish, Chasind or Rivvain...where you have mages living cheek and jowl with non-mages for centuries or more. The people in the White Chantry nations fear magic because they are generally uneducated and ignorant towards the way it works. And keeping the mages and the rest of Thedas separated merely widens the gap between them, resulting in neither group understanding the other. And that's the fault of the chantry and the templars. But with enough education people might start to understand magic better, and thus naturally become more tolerant of mages. And if more was done to integrate mages into society on a normal level and the stigma were to disappear, I think far fewer mages would succumb to demonic suggestion as well.

As for the rest...Celene and Gaspard used scorched earth tactics in their war. No mages involved. I think that's a bit worse than the loss of some crops. Collateral damage happens in war. It's unavoidable. Not to mention that Tevinter is still a functional nation not overrun by abominations...or a bloody wasteland burned to the ground by frightened children

[MisterJB]

Of course I can. We do not see such fear with the Dalish, Chasind or Rivvain...where you have mages living cheek and jowl with non-mages for centuries or more.

You don't consider the possibility they are the ones lacking education?

After all, Tevinter claims that magic is a sign the Maker has choosen mages to rule and the Dalish claim that all elves were mages once and thus, elven mages are the closest there is to the ideal of the Ancient Elves and, naturally, they should rule.

None of this is any less propaganda than the Chant. Why is it Andrastian society then that is wrong?

 

But with enough education people might start to understand magic better, and thus naturally become more tolerant of mages.

Why?

It might lead to less kids lynched because of crops but beyond that?

Can mages conjure fire, electricity, etc whenever they please? Yes.

Can they control minds without any outward sign? Yes.

Can they use other people as living blood batteries? Yes.

Oh and, BTW, with the Entropy school they can make you explode from the inside out with a touch, trap you in a waking nightmare. paralyze you, etc.

 

If your intention is to educate, that means both the good and the bad.

And knowing all of this, why should people fear mages any less? What is it that they are unaware of that would make them become tolerant?

 

 

Not to mention that Tevinter is still a functional nation not overrun by abominations...or a bloody wasteland burned to the ground by frightened children

 

If giving them supreme power over life and death is the only way to keep a mage confortable enough not become an Abomination, it's too high a price.

 

 

 

[OrionAnderson]

 We do not see such fear with the Dalish, ...where you have mages living cheek and jowl with non-mages for centuries or more.

Chasind and Rivain may (or may not) be good examples. The Dalish don't fear mages, but they really should. They don't because they are ruled by mages, and their religion/ideology/traditions lead them to value magic. They're the flipside of the Andrastian commonfolk -- humans fear magic because they don't understand it; Dalish embrace magic because they don't understand it.

 

Seriously though the Dalish clans are some kind of nightmare fusion of Tevinters and apostates. The Keeper practice whatever magic they want, in secret. The elves probably wouldn't have approved  of Zathrian and Marethari dealing with demons, but no one knew about it, and it's not clear if anyone would have had the authority to interfere. The Keepers certainly don't keep themselves in line. Even when Zathrian's own magic is killing his people, he doesn't feel any obligation to tell them what he's done. Marethari pursues her feud with Merrill until it results in the entire clan being killed. The Keepers don't even bother to control their subordinates. Velanna's Keeper either couldn't or didn't want to stop her from running off to murder humans, disturb the veil, and invite reprisals on her clan. Worse, the Dalish seem to have no plan to cope with possession. There are no Templars, and if the Keeper is possessed, their apprentice is the only mage on hand to resist. That seems like a likely TPK. Even if it's the First who's possessed, they might overpower or ambush the Keeper, and then it's all over.

 

Oh, and in DAI Someone (vivien? solas?) implies that the Dalish exile or execute unwanted mage-children, so they don't even have the moral high ground.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As for the rest...Celene and Gaspard used scorched earth tactics in their war. No mages involved. I think that's a bit worse than the loss of some crops. Collateral damage happens in war. It's unavoidable. Not to mention that Tevinter is still a functional nation not overrun by abominations...or a bloody wasteland burned to the ground by frightened children

As I've previously noted, there are in fact parallels between Tevinter's treatment of mages and the rest of Thedas's. Tevinter has Circles and the Harrowing, and according to David Gaider they lock up all but the highest ranking mages (these being necessarily near the top as far as power due to the way Tevinter handles politics, and as I've already said powerful mages are really unlikely to turn) in a way reminiscent of the White Chantry's actions. (You may disregard that last bit if later works haven't born it out.)

 

I also agree with Detzyn that the letter from Teagan really does seem like it discounts the stuff that happened in actual combat (or else it would probably be a much longer list and include blood money of a far more literal sort) and that you are making far less of a farmer's crop being lost than it deserves. Yes, Celene and Gaspard are responsible for worse. No, that cannot be used as an argument that what the mages did isn't that bad.

 

 

Worse, the Dalish seem to have no plan to cope with possession. There are no Templars, and if the Keeper is possessed, their apprentice is the only mage on hand to resist. That seems like a likely TPK. Even if it's the First who's possessed, they might overpower or ambush the Keeper, and then it's all over.

 

Oh, and in DAI Someone (vivien? solas?) implies that the Dalish exile or execute unwanted mage-children, so they don't even have the moral high ground.

I think I remember a mage NPC in Haven saying that she was born Dalish, but exiled at a scarily young age because they didn't have room for another mage. I think I also remember reading online that if you're Dalish yourself, you have the option to say your clan doesn't have that policy. And I'll also note that the halla keeper in Zathrian's clan throws Primal magic at you if you try to massacre them.

 

As for the Dalish plan to deal with abominations, I remember reading online that Merrill says it's "murder them in the face." I don't remember if she said how they pull that off. (Probably with arrows, because I wouldn't want to try and knife one.)

[MisterJB]

True, even the Dalish know better than to have more than three mages in the clan at once.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

True, even the Dalish know better than to have more than three mages in the clan at once.

That's not the impression I got from hearing Lanaya talk about the competition between her and the other potential firsts. I'm pretty sure that she was thinking of a larger pool of competitors for the title than herself and Elora.

 

At any rate I don't think we're intended to be able to come up with any general idea of how the Dalish work. I think between the varyingly friendly Dalish Clans and their different rules on mages, we're supposed to conclude that as much as they seem to want to be, they are not a monolithic group.

 

Edit: I also don't think we're supposed to use them as evidence that mages aren't all that dangerous. Because, you know, just about half of the Dalish mages we've actually met are evidence against that idea. (At least in single-player, and potentially not-counting the EM Quizzy.)

[TK514]

It is Merrill who tells you that sometimes a Keeper goes bad and the entire clan has to hunt them down.  And that sometimes they are successful, and sometimes entire clans just disappear.

 

When your nomadic, dying culture's plan for dealing with Abominations is "Sometimes we all die", you probably aren't a very good example to aspire to.  The same can be said for Rivain.  "Oh well, Betty got A-Bombed, murdered everyone I ever cared about, and turned them into undead.  Que Sera Sera." is pretty much the opposite of a sane and successful prevention plan.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It is Merrill who tells you that sometimes a Keeper goes bad and the entire clan has to hunt them down.  And that sometimes they are successful, and sometimes entire clans just disappear.

 

When your nomadic, dying culture's plan for dealing with Abominations is "Sometimes we all die", you probably aren't a very good example to aspire to.  The same can be said for Rivain.  "Oh well, Betty got A-Bombed, murdered everyone I ever cared about, and turned them into undead.  Que Sera Sera." is pretty much the opposite of a sane and successful prevention plan.

... well, frack.

[The Baconer]

As I've previously noted, there are in fact parallels between Tevinter's treatment of mages and the rest of Thedas's. Tevinter has Circles and the Harrowing, and according to David Gaider they lock up all but the highest ranking mages (these being necessarily near the top as far as power due to the way Tevinter handles politics, and as I've already said powerful mages are really unlikely to turn) in a way reminiscent of the White Chantry's actions. (You may disregard that last bit if later works haven't born it out.)

 

I would say that, based on current information, that isn't how Tevinter functions at all. Circle attendance is not mandatory, and is seen as a privilege.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I would say that, based on current information, that isn't how Tevinter functions at all. Circle attendance is not mandatory, and is seen as a privilege.

Could you give a source?

[The Baconer]

Could you give a source?

 

World of Thedas Vol. 1 pg. 103, and dialogue with Dorian concerning the general opportunities of non-Altus mages.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

World of Thedas Vol. 1 pg. 103, and dialogue with Dorian concerning the general opportunities of non-Altus mages.

Noted. Thanks.

 

(Though that does lead one to wonder if Tevinter isn't a chaotic realm of demons in at least certain areas.)

[Master Warder Z_]

Noted. Thanks.

 

(Though that does lead one to wonder if Tevinter isn't a chaotic realm of demons in at least certain areas.)

 

Given that mage instruction isn't mandatory and you likely have many poorer families that have mages that lack the resources to send them to circles?

 

Plus no Templars so really, they are sort of screwed when possession does go down.

 

Then again its Tevinter, its backwards in most regards

[Sports72Xtrm]

 

Who's bringing them to justice?

 

The mage rebels are expected to enforce responsible magic boundaries. If they're not, Divine Leliana has eyes and ears everywhere and will root out the corruption. Like Cassandra says, if there is something worth knowing about, Leliana will find it. It'll keep the mages honest, and still gives them freedom and responsibility. And there's always the Inquisition, the protector of ordinary men full of ex templars willing to fight injustice, chaos, and magical corruption. And I assume they will continue to grow and embed their agents in other countries' borders, acting as recon and special forces to train the populace. With Leliana's criminal ties, they can even covertly scout and supply  (via smuggling) the populace with lyrium to train templar inquisition agents. Giving mages freedom doesn't mean throwing away order.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The mage rebels are expected to enforce responsible magic boundaries. If they're not, Divine Leliana has eyes and ears everywhere and will root out the corruption. Like Cassandra says, if there is something worth knowing about, Leliana will find it. It'll keep the mages honest, and still gives them freedom and responsibility. And there's always the Inquisition, the protector of ordinary men full of ex templars willing to fight injustice and magical corruption. And I assume they will continue to grow and embed their agents in other countries' borders, acting as recon and special forces to train the populace. With Leliana's criminal ties, they can even covertly scout and supply the populace with lyrium to train templar inquisition agents. Giving mages freedom doesn't mean throwing away order.

Okay.

 

But that doesn't answer my main objection to mages in the general population. You'll remember that I said that the abuse of magic on its own wouldn't be enough to justify the mandatory Circle thing, for exactly this reason. How do you picture abominations being handled?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Okay.

 

But that doesn't answer my main objection to mages in the general population. You'll remember that I said that the abuse of magic on its own wouldn't be enough to justify the mandatory Circle thing, for exactly this reason. How do you picture abominations being handled?

I believe either the Bright Hand or the College of Enchanters form a mandatory training curriculum for all mages. They will have the responsibility of training and watching over the mages, with phylacteries if they wish in exchange for full autonomy of their cabals. In exchange, they unionize and negotiate trade of their magical wares to support their college like the seers negotiate on behalf of villages with the nobles of Rivain. If there is an abomination, I would suggest the College start employing spirit healers and seers to be warned by spirits of empending danger like the Avvar and Cole to deal with the threat quickly and decisively. It's proven to be effective and practical. Worse case scenario, Leliana will be informed of something and the Inquisition invades, conscripting mages who surrender and annulling those who don't.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I believe either the Bright Hand or the College of Enchanters form a mandatory training curriculum for all mages. They will have the responsibility of training and watching over the mages, with phylacteries if they wish in exchange for full autonomy of their cabals. In exchange, they unionize and negotiate trade of their magical wares to support their college like the seers negotiate on behalf of villages with the nobles of Rivain. If there is an abomination, I would suggest the College start employing spirit healers and seers to be warned by spirits of empending danger like the Avvar and Cole to deal with the threat quickly and decisively. It's proven to be effective and practical. Worse case scenario, Leliana will be informed of something and the Inquisition invades, conscripting mages who surrender and annulling those who don't.

Mandatory training is good. At least you're not ignoring the danger of untrained mages. And I have no objection to the semi-Circles selling magic.

 

But can spirits tell when there's an abomination loose? And how does this solution control where the abominations form?

[Vit246]

When your nomadic, dying culture's plan for dealing with Abominations is "Sometimes we all die", you probably aren't a very good example to aspire to.  The same can be said for Rivain.  "Oh well, Betty got A-Bombed, murdered everyone I ever cared about, and turned them into undead.  Que Sera Sera." is pretty much the opposite of a sane and successful prevention plan.

 

Why do you people keep talking about Rivain as if its Seers spontaneously turn renegade or into abominations all the time and its population is nonchalant about it?

[Master Warder Z_]

Why do you people keep talking about Rivain as if its Seers spontaneously turn renegade or into abominations all the time and its population is nonchalant about it?

Because they view abominations as acts of nature? There is no mention of frequency but it is a culture that allows possession, so I'd say abominations rampaging wouldn't be as rare as elsewhere