1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Sports72Xtrm]

Mandatory training is good. At least you're not ignoring the danger of untrained mages. And I have no objection to the semi-Circles selling magic.

 

But can spirits tell when there's an abomination loose? And how does this solution control where the abominations form?

Cole was able to uncover envy when no one else was. I've read stories of mages being guided by spirits whether it's to be at the right time or right place from stories from WoT. And the Avvar, well it says their spirits even kill an abomination turned bad in their sleep if they have too. They are able to sense malice or feel something that wants to hurt. So yes, they can sense an abomination going rogue or evil. Assuming the mage isn't a lawless apostate, the mages would be able to track it with the phylactery or notify Inquisition agents to help hunt it down. If they have a really good relationship with the nobility, they could even gain favors if they are sent tithes for sellswords or just troops to help in hunting it down. Nobody wants abominations summoning demons or creating more abominations.

[MisterJB]

The mage rebels are expected to enforce responsible magic boundaries. If they're not, Divine Leliana has eyes and ears everywhere and will root out the corruption. Like Cassandra says, if there is something worth knowing about, Leliana will find it. It'll keep the mages honest, and still gives them freedom and responsibility. And there's always the Inquisition, the protector of ordinary men full of ex templars willing to fight injustice, chaos, and magical corruption. And I assume they will continue to grow and embed their agents in other countries' borders, acting as recon and special forces to train the populace. With Leliana's criminal ties, they can even covertly scout and supply  (via smuggling) the populace with lyrium to train templar inquisition agents. Giving mages freedom doesn't mean throwing away order.

That wasn't my original question but whatever.

 

Anyway, may I assume this is what you propose would happen in a Divine Leliana ending? Because, for instance, you speak of her rooting out corruption but, in her epilogue, there is no mention whatsoever of her setting any policies. She just removes the Circle and hopes for the best.

 

If so, I can find many things wrong with it and many problems that are not adressed. But it's a couple of lines, not an essay so it's understandable.
 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Finally, a kindred spirit :>

Ah, I'm afraid I only dislike the Seekers very much, but not enough for me to convince Cass to let it die in my main world state though.

 

I know you support Gaspard and doesn't like the Seekers, but you don't like Cass as Divine? Doea it mean you like Leliana as Divine? Damn WCA, I expected better

Aye, I prefer the Inquisition's allies someone who keep his word, and I just want to get rid of those vipers on Orlais's throne. (seriously, the Game can sod off). I'm not a big fan of the Seekers, but they're still around in my main world state. Oh, where and how did you get this notion that I like Leliana as Divine. I actually prefer Cass as Divine since I find myself agreeing with her policy, the Circle, the Templar Order has it place but it needs a huge reform. Come on, Boost. Have some faith in me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Cole was able to uncover envy when no one else was. I've read stories of mages being guided by spirits whether it's to be at the right time or right place from stories from WoT. And the Avvar, well it says their spirits even kill an abomination turned bad in their sleep if they have too. They are able to sense malice or feel something that wants to hurt. So yes, they can sense an abomination going rogue or evil. Assuming the mage isn't a lawless apostate, the mages would be able to track it with the phylactery or notify Inquisition agents to help hunt it down. If they have a really good relationship with the nobility, they could even gain favors if they are sent tithes for sellswords or just troops to help in hunting it down. Nobody wants abominations summoning demons or creating more abominations.

Yes, but what's the range on that? And what are the limitations? I know Cole is able to creep Iron Bull out by reading Tama's mind from across at least one fairly decently sized body of water, but I don't know how many other spirits can do that and how.

 

What I'm trying to ask, in short, is "how would 'a lawless apostate' who turns abomination be handled?"

[Deztyn]

Of course I can. We do not see such fear with the Dalish, Chasind or Rivvain...where you have mages living cheek and jowl with non-mages for centuries or more. The people in the White Chantry nations fear magic because they are generally uneducated and ignorant towards the way it works. And keeping the mages and the rest of Thedas separated merely widens the gap between them, resulting in neither group understanding the other. And that's the fault of the chantry and the templars. But with enough education people might start to understand magic better, and thus naturally become more tolerant of mages. And if more was done to integrate mages into society on a normal level and the stigma were to disappear, I think far fewer mages would succumb to demonic suggestion as well.

As for the rest...Celene and Gaspard used scorched earth tactics in their war. No mages involved. I think that's a bit worse than the loss of some crops. Collateral damage happens in war. It's unavoidable. Not to mention that Tevinter is still a functional nation not overrun by abominations...or a bloody wasteland burned to the ground by frightened children

So your argument is "Two armies fighting a war can do the same kind of damage as a single mage not engaging in battle can by mistake, so the people should stop fearing mages."

Is that an accurate summary?

Do you really believe that telling the world that mages are really nice people underneath the powerful forces they (sometimes) control will change how they feel when an abomination shows up and wipes out a village (or two with no templars to stop them after the first)? When small children immolate other small children in what would normally be a quickly forgotten playyard scuffle? When a well-meaning mage summons a "benevolent" spirit that turns out to be a demon and slaughters your friends before it's stopped?

That bit in Asunder I quoted? The Senior Enchanter arguing with the peasant would have set the man on fire because she didn't like what he was saying if a templar hadn't been there to diffuse the situation.

The dangers of magic are real and present wherever there are mages. The Chant of Light calls magic a gift from The Maker, doesn't stop everyone from seeing it as a curse.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Yes, but what's the range on that? And what are the limitations? I know Cole is able to creep Iron Bull out by reading Tama's mind from across at least one fairly decently sized body of water, but I don't know how many other spirits can do that and how.

 

What I'm trying to ask, in short, is "how would 'a lawless apostate' who turns abomination be handled?"

Killed by the Inquisition, or Seekers, or the College if they can muster it I suppose. Just like they did in the Circles in the past. I shouldn't have to explain an obvious truth. Not every magical incident has to be handled by the College and shouldn't held accountable for it. If you blame the College administration for everything that goes wrong that is beyond their control, it's going to be Anders and the Kirkwall rebellion again. It's been that way for the Circles in the past as well. Demons and maleficar will still be about and slip through the cracks. No system is perfect. The College can only be responsible for those who choose to register themselves in the College. Are you saying that the College should be held accountable for those who chose to not participate in the system? An abomination who is not registered with the college should be treated as the fault of the mage college when it should be the fault of the parents or the individual? Reasonably, it should just chalk it up to like an unavoidable disaster which will be resolved when it is hunted down and killed. That's why they are apostates. And with Leliana's spy network and the Inquisition's agents, they can track such dangerous apostate abominations down and kill it. It's their job isn't it?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Killed by the Inquisition, or Seekers, or the College if they can muster it I suppose. Just like they did in the Circles in the past. I shouldn't have to explain an obvious truth. Not every magical incident has to be handled by the College. It's been that way for the Circles in the past as well. Demons and maleficar will still be about and slip through the cracks. No system is perfect. The College can only be responsible for those who choose to register themselves in the College. Are you saying that the College should be held accountable for those who chose to not participate in the system? An abomination who is not registered with the college should be treated as the fault of the parents or the individual, and just chalk it up to like an unavoidable disaster which will be resolved when it is hunted down and killed. That's why they are apostates.

I've already noted in previous threads that I'd be okay with the mages being controlled by mages as long as individual mages aren't free to hurt others. This is actually close enough to the previous Circle that I have no problems with it.

[Sports72Xtrm]

So your argument is "Two armies fighting a war can do the same kind of damage as a single mage not engaging in battle can by mistake, so the people should stop fearing mages."

Is that an accurate summary?

Do you really believe that telling the world that mages are really nice people underneath the powerful forces they (sometimes) control will change how they feel when an abomination shows up and wipes out a village (or two with no templars to stop them after the first)? When small children immolate other small children in what would normally be a quickly forgotten playyard scuffle? When a well-meaning mage summons a "benevolent" spirit that turns out to be a demon and slaughters your friends before it's stopped?

That bit in Asunder I quoted? The Senior Enchanter arguing with the peasant would have set the man on fire because she didn't like what he was saying if a templar hadn't been there to diffuse the situation.

The dangers of magic are real and present wherever there are mages. The Chant of Light calls magic a gift from The Maker, doesn't stop everyone from seeing it as a curse.

And such abuse of magic must be punished and fought but persecuting mages just to make you feel secure in your base jealousy is not an appropriate reason to persecute mages. No one is saying mages should be above the law, but to say that muggles are unable to control their need for vengeance or bigotry  and thus it's easier to condone divisive ignorance instead of having it go through an orderly system to seek justice is unreasonable.

[Barquiel]

So your argument is "Two armies fighting a war can do the same kind of damage as a single mage not engaging in battle can by mistake, so the people should stop fearing mages."

Is that an accurate summary?

Do you really believe that telling the world that mages are really nice people underneath the powerful forces they (sometimes) control will change how they feel when an abomination shows up and wipes out a village (or two with no templars to stop them after the first)? When small children immolate other small children in what would normally be a quickly forgotten playyard scuffle? When a well-meaning mage summons a "benevolent" spirit that turns out to be a demon and slaughters your friends before it's stopped?

That bit in Asunder I quoted? The Senior Enchanter arguing with the peasant would have set the man on fire because she didn't like what he was saying if a templar hadn't been there to diffuse the situation.

The dangers of magic are real and present wherever there are mages. The Chant of Light calls magic a gift from The Maker, doesn't stop everyone from seeing it as a curse.

 

- A freehold in Rainesfere was burned to the ground when a mage inside lost control of his abilities.
- Two farms outside Redcliffe Village suffered crop loss and structural damage due to frost spells.
- Five people in Redcliffe Village were injured by lightning spells cast by panicked children.
Do you really want to compare this to the damage we see in the Exalted Plains? And why should mages use frost spells outside Redcliffe? That definitely sounds like collateral damage from the war to me. I give you the panicked children. But if you think a "normal" army + hundreds of refugees wouldn't have done any damage in a similar situation...ok. I disagree. And that Teagan has the nerve to ask for money for something like this after I solved his little dragon problem in the hinterlands, no comment. But that's another issue....

If you begin to integrate mages and magic as a positive asset to society, then yes. It will change Thedas views on mages (as Leliana's epilogue indicates). But mages can't really give anything positive to people of Thedas if you lock them away. The Chantries anti-mage propaganda being forced fed to everyone from birth and some horror story every couple of years do the rest.

 

And mages don't have the right to defend themselves against some guy looking for vengeance...unless the Chantry says they can?

[Iakus]

 

As for the Dalish plan to deal with abominations, I remember reading online that Merrill says it's "murder them in the face." I don't remember if she said how they pull that off. (Probably with arrows, because I wouldn't want to try and knife one.)

If a Keeper goes abomination, the clan has to bring him or her down.  That's...likely going to have a lot of collateral damage.

[Iakus]

Noted. Thanks.

 

(Though that does lead one to wonder if Tevinter isn't a chaotic realm of demons in at least certain areas.)

Putting on a good front and concealing unpleasant details is practically a Tevinter passtime.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Tevinter does not have or does not appear to have lots of abomination cases because magic is prevalent there. Many people practice it. Magical education in Tevinter is also top notch. That could have something to do with why there are no mentions of abominations. I'm guessing if you cannot resist a demon in Tevinter you are seen as a weak wimpy mage.

[dragonflight288]

Mandatory training is good. At least you're not ignoring the danger of untrained mages. And I have no objection to the semi-Circles selling magic.

 

But can spirits tell when there's an abomination loose? And how does this solution control where the abominations form?

 

Jaws of Hakkon, the Avaar practices of magic.

 

They form friendships and alliances with the spirits, and the spirits in turn actually help protect the plan from the demons and other real world threats, taking blows for the warriors in their stead. It takes time and patience, but the Avaar, who treat the spirits as their gods, essentially will a new spirit into being to replace an old one who died to help them, because of the flexible nature of the Fade and spirits themselves. 

 

They also willingly allow themselves to be possessed by these spirits, and these spirits in turn teach them magic. It's a bond of friendship, and when that training is over, the Avaar have a ritual that separates the spirit from the mage. 

 

I found it incredibly fascinating. 

 

Of course, there is a codex where they had to kill an exceptionally weak mage who couldn't control her powers, but it was written in a very solemn tone, and one that suggests they hated doing it but have to for the good of the tribe. 

 

So, to answer your question, yes.

 

In fact, the Auger of the Avaar we deal with knew exactly how I handled Redcliff and the time traveling before my Inquisitor met him because the spirits told him, and he told me that they're very curious about the one with the bright hand. He allowed them to see me, then bid them on their way.

 

In many ways, I think the Avaar have the best magic system in place.

[dragonflight288]

Putting on a good front and concealing unpleasant details is practically a Tevinter passtime.

 

But if abominations were as often and as bad as the games and chantry would have us believe, Tevinter technically should be a ruin, never mind an empire that spanned an entire continent.

[GranfalloonMembr]

 

That's because everything is their [the rebel mages] fault.

 

Mage blows up a Chantry and a Grand Cleric, not long after that another mage tries to assasssinate the Divine. Their reaction? "Hey I know! Lets start a rebellion, attack the [much more popular] templars and cast down the circles [the one thing 99% of the population thinks keeps them safe]! That'll prove we're on the up and up!" herpaderp

 

I won't go into the events that kicked off that rebellion. Varric already summed it up quite nicely at the beginning of the third act of DA2. Suffice to say that the mages didn't just rebel for no reason.

 

Turns out that Vivienne is right about them not being able to win. Storyline-wise, they need to pledge themselves to Tevinter to avoid being crushed. Gameplay-wise, the rebel mages in the Hinterlands have hired sellswords to tank for them because they'd die too easily without them.

 

So maybe Fiona made a big mistake, but I think something needed to be done. If Kirkwall were truly the exception and most mages were treated fine, the original Cole would never have died, and the members of the Starkhaven Circle would have had no reason to run in DA2. As best I can recall, Vivienne doesn't suggest any alternative besides "Do nothing. Just be good little mages and hope you're not one of the ones they arbitrarily make Tranquil." I could be forgetting something. If so, tell me.

 

 

And that justifies killing every Mage in kirkwall and subsequently getting rid of all those oriviledges Vivienne loves to talk about for something they didn't even do?

Would you still say the same if Meredith decided to kill all Fereldens in Kirkwall because anders is from Fereldens?

 

Anybody who thinks that Meredith's decision made a lick of sense--either in-universe or out--has something wrong with them. I really can't stand Sebastian most of the time, but he's the only one who bothers to suggest punishing Anders instead of the Circle after the Chantry is gone.

 

Of course I can. We do not see such fear with the Dalish, Chasind or Rivvain...where you have mages living cheek and jowl with non-mages for centuries or more. The people in the White Chantry nations fear magic because they are generally uneducated and ignorant towards the way it works. And keeping the mages and the rest of Thedas separated merely widens the gap between them, resulting in neither group understanding the other. And that's the fault of the chantry and the templars. But with enough education people might start to understand magic better, and thus naturally become more tolerant of mages. And if more was done to integrate mages into society on a normal level and the stigma were to disappear, I think far fewer mages would succumb to demonic suggestion as well.

 

E.g., Sera. The girl actively tries to be ignorant. I took her and Solas to the tomb where Solas talked about about the old Emerald Knights. It wasn't a long and boring lecture or anything. He just says something like "Some people say the Emerald Knights were great heroes, and others say they were bloodthirsty murderers. Both may be true," and Sera responds by blowing a raspberry.

 

Like "Shut up Solas, stop making me learn things! I don't want to learn anything, not even for ten or fifteen seconds!"

 

I figure that's why she's so scared of magic. The people who raised her told her all kinds of horror stories, and she doesn't want to learn any more about it. All she knows is "Magic=Bad" and that's all she wants to know.

 

But anyway, back to Vivienne. Her statement about how people fear mages because of children accidentally killing or injuring people is stupid.

 

You know how you teach people not to fear mages after that? Even stupid people like Sera? You tell them "It was an accident. This building burned down, but even a child without any magic could have burned it down by playing with fire irresponsibly. The answer for a non-magical child is to teach them what not to do and how to safely build a fire. We are going to take this kid away and teach her what not to do and how to safely use the magic. Then there will be no more accidents, and she can even use her power to heal injuries and save lives."

 

If ignorant peasants were told this kind of thing all the time, then I believe it would at least reduce the number who saw all mages as boogeymen.

 

 

Tevinter does not have or does not appear to have lots of abomination cases because magic is prevalent there. Many people practice it. Magical education in Tevinter is also top notch. That could have something to do with why there are no mentions of abominations. I'm guessing if you cannot resist a demon in Tevinter you are seen as a weak wimpy mage.

 

That's my impression as well: who keeps abominations from running amok in Tevinter? Other mages. It seems to work. And Dorian was very open about what was wrong with the Imperium, so he surely would have mentioned that if it were a problem.

 

On the subject of Tevinter: from all that the NPCs in the different games have told me, very few of the Imperium's problems are because of magic. They have slavery and those slaves are abused and sometimes killed, but that's because people made a bad law, not because of magic. As for the Imperium being ruled by mages, well, how is a ruling class of mages any worse or better than a ruling class of people with noble blood like in Ferelden and Orlais? Soporati may have to resign themselves to having no say in affairs of state in Tevinter, but non-nobles have to resign themselves to having no say in affairs of state in Ferelden.

 

Ideally, in any nation, those who make the big decisions would be those most qualified to do a good job and do the right thing. That isn't the case in any of the nations I named in the above paragraph, and it would be very good if they all reformed. But I'm having a hard time seeing what makes Tevinter drastically worse than Orlais or Ferelden. Blood magic, using unwilling victims, to gain or cling to power? No, I don't suppose they do that in Orlais, but they do abuse their subjects in non-magical ways.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Tevinter minus the slavery = Mage heaven.

[GranfalloonMembr]

Tevinter minus the slavery = Mage heaven.

 

Yeah, Feynriel seems to settle in well there.

 

Of course, even if slavery were gone it would still be a place where, as Dorian tells us, everybody who isn't a mage hopes that their child will be one, or their grandchild, etc. Because if not, they can only go so far.

 

As Dorian described selling oneself into slavery (as opposed to being born into it or being taken against your will), it reminded me of what one minor character in Mass Effect 2 said about legal indentured servitude. In the system described in ME2 (which I see you've played, but which I'll describe for those who haven't), all contracts required the "owner" to provide well for the servant, absolutely forbid any abuse, and ensured the servant would gain their freedom back after working for a fixed period of time. If Tevinter had safeguards like those in place to protect slaves, and if the only slaves were ones who had chosen to indenture themselves as an alternative to poverty, then it would be...well, it would still not be good, but it would be a lot less bad.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But if abominations were as often and as bad as the games and chantry would have us believe, Tevinter technically should be a ruin, never mind an empire that spanned an entire continent.

The Chantry isn't trying to communicate that it happens often. They actually admit they're rare. The danger isn't supposed to be that it happens often, but that when it does happen large areas are suddenly a lot more dangerous to live in than they were. (Which, you know, seems like a good reason to want it to happen in an isolated area with a whole bunch of Templars around. Ideally on an island at that.)

 

And mages don't have the right to defend themselves against some guy looking for vengeance...unless the Chantry says they can?

 

All it took to solve the situation (somewhat) peacefully was to point a sword at them and tell them to screw off. Adrian instead went for an attack. The former is self-defence. The latter is somewhat questionable.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Turns out that Vivienne is right about them not being able to win. Storyline-wise, they need to pledge themselves to Tevinter to avoid being crushed.

They thought they did. I've pointed out several times that since they were sitting right next to a castle that we're consistently told is practically invincible, the assertion that they actually did need to do this is a questionable one.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ideally, in any nation, those who make the big decisions would be those most qualified to do a good job and do the right thing. That isn't the case in any of the nations I named in the above paragraph, and it would be very good if they all reformed. But I'm having a hard time seeing what makes Tevinter drastically worse than Orlais or Ferelden. Blood magic, using unwilling victims, to gain or cling to power? No, I don't suppose they do that in Orlais, but they do abuse their subjects in non-magical ways.

I agree that there's less to choose than there should be, but at least an Orlesian noble is less likely to directly benefit from harming his/her servants. Celene killed every servant she had minus her favorite as part of a semi-cunning plot that made her look like a victim of an unprovoked attack, and while I don't remember the details that's part of why she's the Empress. There's about a hundred more ways than that to kill large numbers of your servants for a huge political gain if you happen to be a maleficar. And if your rival is another maleficar and he just did one of them, you might have to choose between following suit and following his servants.

[Boost32]

Aye, I prefer the Inquisition's allies someone who keep his word, and I just want to get rid of those vipers on Orlais's throne. (seriously, the Game can sod off). I'm not a big fan of the Seekers, but they're still around in my main world state. Oh, where and how did you get this notion that I like Leliana as Divine. I actually prefer Cass as Divine since I find myself agreeing with her policy, the Circle, the Templar Order has it place but it needs a huge reform. Come on, Boost. Have some faith in me.

Well, you said you wasnt sure if Cassandra was the best Divine, I was confused for a moment

In many ways, I think the Avaar have the best magic system in place.

The same system responsable to almost unleash a possessed dragon? I strongly disagree.

Anybody who thinks that Meredith's decision made a lick of sense--either in-universe or out--has something wrong with them. I really can't stand Sebastian most of the time, but he's the only one who bothers to suggest punishing Anders instead of the Circle after the Chantry is gone.

Of course it made sense, the people of Kirkwall would want to start a witch hunt, they would form a mob and demand mage's blood. Her premise was anulling the Circle would prevent a bigger bloodshed, and in the end the Kirkwall Circle was filled with maleficars and abominations, good ridance I say.

[Shienis]

Of course it made sense, the people of Kirkwall would want to start a witch hunt, they would form a mob and demand mage's blood. Her premise was anulling the Circle would prevent a bigger bloodshed, and in the end the Kirkwall Circle was filled with maleficars and abominations, good ridance I say.

 

Provided there would be any people of Kirkwall left to form a mob...

[Drasanil]

Of course it made sense, the people of Kirkwall would want to start a witch hunt, they would form a mob and demand mage's blood. Her premise was anulling the Circle would prevent a bigger bloodshed, and in the end the Kirkwall Circle was filled with maleficars and abominations, good ridance I say.

 

This. No one is disputing the fact red lyrium drove Knight-Commander Meredith mad. However, being mad does not preclude some of your decisions from being sensible, such as the one to annul the circle. 

 

You either get peasant lynch mobs hanging every mage they can get their hands on willy-nilly, or templars quickly and cleanly executing mages that are of dubious character, background or providence. If I were a circle mage I'd much rather the latter as at least my previous credentials/history would give me some hope of survival and, if not, at least I would get a clean death as opposed to having a bunch of hygienically challenged yahoos doing a poor job of hanging me. 

[Barquiel]

The idea that a mob would force Meredith to do anything is downright laughable. And I don't believe for a minute that the citizens of Kirkwall would do such a thing anyway, the vast majority would just stay home. Why do you think we don't see a mob on the way to the Gallows? Because it doesn't exist. Even if it would exist, the Templars and the City Guard are the army of Kirkwall and would be able to put down any rebellion easily, especially considering such people would have barely any arms or armor. Not to mention that it's a stupid idea to give in to a mob's demands in general. If Meredith wants to be Viscount she has to run the city by the laws of Kirkwall, not the law of mob rule.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Well, you said you wasnt sure if Cassandra was the best Divine, I was confused for a moment

Nah, I didn't say that. Sorry, I think the mistake is on my part, what I meant to say in response to Habits Honeypot's comment earlier is that I'm only agreeing with him on mages need supervision part, but I wasn't sure the Inquisition will be the best guardian for them, and other than that I'll have to politely disagree with him. Oh, I'm quite certain that Cassandra is the best Divine in my humble opinion since most decisions I made favor her, and I try super hard to stop Leliana or Vivienne ascension. Honestly, I'm quite a staunch Divine Cassandra supporter.