1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

The idea that a mob would force Meredith to do anything is downright laughable. And I don't believe for a minute that the citizens of Kirkwall would do such a thing anyway, the vast majority would just stay home. Why do you think we don't see a mob on the way to the Gallows? Because it doesn't exist. Even if it would exist, the Templars and the City Guard are the army of Kirkwall and would be able to put down any rebellion easily, especially considering such people would have barely any arms or armor. Not to mention that it's a stupid idea to give in to a mob's demands in general. If Meredith wants to be Viscount she has to run the city by the laws of Kirkwall, not the law of mob rule.

A mob wouldn't force her to do anything, I doubt she would give in to them, and as a rule no ruler should do that.
If you don't think the people of Kirkwall would form a mob then you are very naive. People always look for someone to blame and when catastrophe that was caused by another ethnic group, the is always persecution.
Of course there is none, after the explosion they would be confused about what happened, but in the next day when the dust was settled and the news of the culprint and who died reached then, I have no doubt that a mob would be formed.
And if the templars/guards tried to put the mob down, it would end in bloodshed and we know Meredith prefers mage blood being spilled.
And she never let the mob rule, she put the mages down before it was formed, the annulement was a clever political move, have she not went full insane, the people would rally her as a heroine who dilivered justice and Meredith would have stayed in power.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

The same system responsable to almost unleash a possessed dragon? I strongly disagree.

 

It wasn't the magic system that unleashed a possessed dragon, it was a war strategy made by imperfect people meant to fight Orlais with the tools at their disposal, and a plan that backfired, as military strategies sometimes do because they're not completely thought through. 

 

Dumb decisions, even without magic, by people in charge can very easily get a lot of people killed. 

 

Napolean going into Russia, Hitler going into Russia, Loghain choosing to focus on Orlais and not on the Blight (and it turns out that he was actually perfectly right about Orlais as they had designs on Ferelden, just not the designs he was thinking,) Celene ordering the deaths of thousands of elves in Halamshiral to save herself politically, the dwarves killing the elven refugees from Arlathan in CadHalash, and a local chantry ordering an exalted march on the Rivaini qunari who chose not to leave Thedas and the land of their birth, and the devestation was so great that the veil itself was sundered and then proceeded to deny ever attacking them. 

 

I don't deny the Avaar who chose to do that made a very dumb move, but it was also a move that went against their very teachings and general beliefs of the avaar and when it is known made the Jaws of Hakkon a pariah among other avaar because they essentially changed the nature of an avaar god.

 

There will always be bad eggs no matter the system. People looking for a flawless system to replace the Circle's won't find one.

 

I simply think the Circle's have more systematic flaws in it and a religious belief tied to it that keeps them from fully exploring the full potential of magic as they limit themselves to the point that they lack a true understanding on some facets of magic to the point that they take religious doctrine as magical theory, especially in regards to the Fade and its denizens, and the overall corruption of the system makes it probably one of the worst places for mages to be to learn magic because even if it's a good Circle, they still will never end up as well-rounded adults. The system itself keeps them isolated, which in turn affects their psyche. 

 

I know that mages in Dragon Age, and the way magic works in the game essentially dictates that mages MUST get training in magic otherwise they are a danger to themselves and to everyone around them, I simply do not think the Circle's are the best solution. Too much systematic corruption, religious dogma, and danger to the emotional, mental and often physical well-being of the mages themselves.

[dragonflight288]

A mob wouldn't force her to do anything, I doubt she would give in to them, and as a rule no ruler should do that.
If you don't think the people of Kirkwall would form a mob then you are very naive. People always look for someone to blame and when catastrophe that was caused by another ethnic group, the is always persecution.
Of course there is none, after the explosion they would be confused about what happened, but in the next day when the dust was settled and the news of the culprint and who died reached then, I have no doubt that a mob would be formed.
And if the templars/guards tried to put the mob down, it would end in bloodshed and we know Meredith prefers mage blood being spilled.
And she never let the mob rule, she put the mages down before it was formed, the annulement was a clever political move, have she not went full insane, the people would rally her as a heroine who dilivered justice and Meredith would have stayed in power.

 

She had not real justification, especially when it's given by Kerras in Act 3 if he still lives that Meredith is going over Elthina's head to get permission for the Right of Annulment directly from the Divine. 

 

Meredith didn't care what the potential mob thought. She didn't care who was guilty, she outright leaves Anders' fate to Hawke despite doing the deed right in front of her. 

 

She simply wanted to Annul the Circle. 

[TK514]

She simply wanted to Annul the Circle. 

 

Insane or not, she was actually right.  It was a blood mage infested hellhole. Meredith may have seized on a convenient excuse, but at the end of the day she shouldn't have had to.  Elthina should have supported her, if not initially for the Annulment itself then at least for a proper investigation.

[Barquiel]

A mob wouldn't force her to do anything, I doubt she would give in to them, and as a rule no ruler should do that.
If you don't think the people of Kirkwall would form a mob then you are very naive. People always look for someone to blame and when catastrophe that was caused by another ethnic group, the is always persecution.
Of course there is none, after the explosion they would be confused about what happened, but in the next day when the dust was settled and the news of the culprint and who died reached then, I have no doubt that a mob would be formed.
And if the templars/guards tried to put the mob down, it would end in bloodshed and we know Meredith prefers mage blood being spilled.
And she never let the mob rule, she put the mages down before it was formed, the annulement was a clever political move, have she not went full insane, the people would rally her as a heroine who dilivered justice and Meredith would have stayed in power.

 

That's just speculation. Occasional incidents might happen, sure. But I don't buy that Meredith was forced to abide by the will of, again, a hypothetical mob. Even a real mob shouldn't influence her actions because as Awakening showed us, giving into a mob for any reason only makes them bolder. Initiate a citywide curfew, patrol the streets, evacuate the circle and send the mages to Starkhaven if you want something really dramatic. But there is absolutely no justification to execute hundreds of mages in this situation.

[dragonflight288]

Insane or not, she was actually right.  It was a blood mage infested hellhole. Meredith may have seized on a convenient excuse, but at the end of the day she shouldn't have had to.  Elthina should have supported her, if not initially for the Annulment itself then at least for a proper investigation.

 

And most of the problems were also a direct result of templar action or inaction. 

 

Beating a mage for talking to a civilian. 

 

Willfully stopping the one templar in-game who is not abusive and is actually trying to solve, not only murders, but the murder of a good Circle mage who was loyal to the system in Act 1, and looking the other way at the foundry where demons were summoned. Poor Emerick. 

 

Executing or tranquilizing three starkhaven mages at random depending on Hawke's actions. 

 

Illegal tranquilizations, and that's something that can be easily discovered and an internal investigation would quickly catch the culprit, especially since every tranquilization requires the signature of both the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander, so for every mage made tranquil illegally, Meredith should be able to prove the templars are out of line due to the lack of record, unless she wasn't interested in cracking down on templar abuse.

 

The absolute lack of accountability the templars faced in Kirkwall ties into the illegal tranquilizations, but also the rape of mages like Kerras going into Alain's room at night and threatening him if he told anyone about it.

 

I've also done the math. In act's 1 and 2, which takes place over 7 years before Act 3, there are only 4-6 instances where Hawke encounters a confirmed blood mage, and not necessarily rogue mages who are criminals but actually use blood magic, and that number may change depending on whether or not the player does all the side quests or not. It's only in Act 3, after Meredith has essentially seized total control of everything, that Kirkwall became a blood-magic war zone. 

 

She cracked down on the mages, and they resisted. The more they resisted, the harder she squeezed, and the harder she squeezed the more they resisted, as Varric says at the beginning of Act 3. 

 

The templars were just as at fault for the situation in Kirkwall as the bad mages, because their actions turned otherwise law-abiding mages into desperate mages who had nothing to lose, or felt they had nothing to lose. 

 

I would likely sympathize a lot more with Meredith if she actually cracked down on her own templars who abused their power, rather than, as far back as Act 1, promote the extremists to high positions over the moderates and good ones. Kerras and Alrik, well before she has the idol, are Knight- Lieutenants, and Thrasks calls Kerras one of her cronies and if the situation on the wounded coast ended in a blood bath then Meredith would consider it justified. Ser Metten who is leading a death squad against non-mages was put in power by Meredith. Even Cullen's own codex in DA2 says he was promoted to Knight-Captain because his views on mages matched her own. 

 

It is my contention that Meredith was willfully ignorant on the actions of her templars, and had a complete disregard to actually enforcing existing Chantry laws on her subordinates and holding them accountable, and their actions and abuses drove the mages to desperate acts for the most part, barring the few who are actually koo-koo for co-co puffs or just plain evil, and thus the templars are responsible for driving the mages to that point.

 

Either that or she's just plain incompetent. Either way, she was not qualified to be Knight-Commander. 

[Shienis]

You know, when you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an abomination, you most probably won't be making rational and calm decisions, especially when you've been hugging a lyrium doll for the past few years.

 

As for whether to stand with her or against her... the options you get are 'kill people' or 'kill people'. The only difference is that one group wears dress and the other armour.

 

The ideal solution would be to put Meredith, Orsino and Anders into Crushing Prison and bring popcorn, but you don't have that option. So why not side with her and try to limit her bloodthirsty killing? If you side with templars, you'll get option to spare some apprentices, I believe. (not sure if I'm not mistaking it with other quest, though, it's been a while since I played DA2)

[dragonflight288]

You know, when you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an abomination, you most probably won't be making rational and calm decisions, especially when you've been hugging a lyrium doll for the past few years.

 

As for whether to stand with her or against her... the options you get are 'kill people' or 'kill people'. The only difference is that one group wears dress and the other armour.

 

The ideal solution would be to put Meredith, Orsino and Anders into Crushing Prison and bring popcorn, but you don't have that option. So why not side with her and try to limit her bloodthirsty killing? If you side with templars, you'll get option to spare some apprentices, I believe. (not sure if I'm not mistaking it with other quest, though, it's been a while since I played DA2)

 

Because if you side with her, you are essentially punishing a collective group with genocide for the actions of an individual who isn't part of that group. 

 

They are not guilty of the crime that they are being punished for, and Meredith knows it. 

[Shienis]

And if you side with Orsino, you're killing a different group. I still fail to see where's the difference. Just because it was Meredith/templar and not Orsino/mage who said the other group should die?

[dragonflight288]

And if you side with Orsino, you're killing a different group. I still fail to see where's the difference. Just because it was Meredith/templar and not Orsino/mage who said the other group should die?

If you side with Orsino, you are defending people not guilty of the crime they are punished for while the Templars are committing genocide without justification.

After the events of DA2 it was confirmed the Chantry did not approve or even believe Meredith was justified.

The difference lies in who deals the first blow, and the very reason for the conflict.

Yes, kill mages or kill Templars is the choice, but it's a conflict where the Templars are forcing the issue, even when there are alternatives. The only reason the alternatives aren't explored is because Meredith, and the Templars were not interested in a peaceful resolution.

[Boost32]

What was being discussed was if it the anulllement was logical, as I said it was (even Meredith say it would prevent mob), if it was justified or morally right is antes matter.

[TK514]

And most of the problems were also a direct result of templar action or inaction. 

 

At the point where she requests Annulment, 'who is at fault' is irrelevant. You don't let a building burn down just because an arsonist started it. You try to put out the fire, then you punish the arsonist.

[Boost32]

tl;de about Avvar.

Ofc the system is responsible, have their mages been on the Circles it would have not happened.
We know 3 Avvars tribes (JoH, JoH 2.0 and the Stone-Bear), 2 of them almost unleashed Hakkon, so it cannot be considered a exception, their mages are dangerous.
And you cant compare the damage caused by a mudane to a mage, there is nothing compared to a Breach, Blight or possessed dragon.

[Ryzaki]

But if abominations were as often and as bad as the games and chantry would have us believe, Tevinter technically should be a ruin, never mind an empire that spanned an entire continent.

 

Eh Tevinter has circles and I'm pretty sure they have a more vicious way of eliminating the weak willed mages than the usual.

[Master Warder Z_]

She had not real justification, especially when it's given by Kerras in Act 3 if he still lives that Meredith is going over Elthina's head to get permission for the Right of Annulment directly from the Divine. 

 

Uh in hindsight would you say she was wrong for that?

 

I mean looking back, The entire circle seems pretty corrupt, maybe that paranoia, that madness, had its roots in reality.

 

She ended up being right about Orsino, she ended up being right about a great many mages under her authority that were either blood mages or conspiring with them.

 

And the Grand Cleric, Maker grant her rest was a soft woman, she should have let Meredith annul the circle years before it blew up like that.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Eh Tevinter has circles and I'm pretty sure they have a more vicious way of eliminating the weak willed mages than the usual.

If I remember everything correctly, most weak willed mages or any mages who displease the Magisters will be eliminated quickly and viciously. Hell, speaking of Tevinter Circle of Magi or regulation in the Imperium, they even have their own Templar Order despite that it's the magisters who hold their leash. The Imperium's templars maybe a magister's puppet, and soldier in other name, but they still able to intervene when mages uses forbidden magic and they also retain the Right of Annulment at their disposal.

 

That said, usually the Imperium templars act only when the magisters point their finger at someone they want to eliminate or when the uses of blood magic went beyond moderate, and when a weak mages or mages who weren't in the position of power attempt to perform sacrifices ritual, demon summoning, the forbidden kind of magic is acceptable only when it's performed by high ranking magisters behind the closed door. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Imperium Templars don't have the magical denying abilities of their southern counterparts making their usefulness...dubious at best.

[Boost32]

That said, usually the Imperium templars act only when the magisters point their finger at someone they want to eliminate or when the uses of blood magic went beyond moderate, and when a weak mages or mages who weren't in the position of power attempt to perform sacrifices ritual, demon summoning, the forbidden kind of magic is acceptable only when it's performed by high ranking magisters behind the closed door.

Or if a corrupt magister implicate a good one, like the case of Maevaris' father.

[Boost32]

Imperium Templars don't have the magical denying abilities of their southern counterparts making their usefulness...dubious at best.

There is one epilogue where some real templars go to Tevinter as mercenary, so maybe, in DA4 , they will have the anti-magic abilities.

[Iakus]

Tevinter minus the slavery = Mage heaven.

Except for the (literally) cuthroat politics 

And the eugenics practice

 

The blood magic and human sacrifice doesn't help either.

And even then, if you're soporoti, you're nobody.

[Iakus]

Eh Tevinter has circles and I'm pretty sure they have a more vicious way of eliminating the weak willed mages than the usual.

Tevinter Circles appear to be very Darwinian.

 

They dont' seem to need Templar abuse and corruption, they do fine on their own.

[Illegitimus]

Imperium Templars don't have the magical denying abilities of their southern counterparts making their usefulness...dubious at best.

 

Who says?  Why wouldn't they?  Canonically they are used by the magisters to deal with those of their number who prove troublesome to the politically dominant ones.  

[Steelcan]

Who says?  Why wouldn't they?  Canonically they are used by the magisters to deal with those of their number who prove troublesome to the politically dominant ones.  

they don't have access to lyrium or the magic blocking abilities it grants

[dragonflight288]

At the point where she requests Annulment, 'who is at fault' is irrelevant. You don't let a building burn down just because an arsonist started it. You try to put out the fire, then you punish the arsonist.

 

The fire was already out. The arsonist was Anders, the Chantry already destroyed. 

 

The circle was not involved, and as such, is not the fire that needs to be extinguished. 

 

What Meredith ought to have done is actually take Anders into custody, likely executed, see to the civilians and make sure no debris harmed or killed anyone, lock down the Gallows and search it thoroughly, work with the guard to keep a mob from forming, and be on the look out for Anders sympathizers and/or copycats, and punish them as they appear. 

 

That would be reasonable measures to take in light of the attack with the authority she wields. 

 

 

Ofc the system is responsible, have their mages been on the Circles it would have not happened.
We know 3 Avvars tribes (JoH, JoH 2.0 and the Stone-Bear), 2 of them almost unleashed Hakkon, so it cannot be considered a exception, their mages are dangerous.
And you cant compare the damage caused by a mudane to a mage, there is nothing compared to a Breach, Blight or possessed dragon.

 

If you blame their system for Hakkon, does that mean you blame the Circle system for Connor and Redcliff? Or do you blame individuals?

 

And all mages are dangerous. Just like all guards are dangerous, all nobles involved in the game of politics are dangerous, every soldier and chevalier is also dangerous. 

 

The avaar mages are especially dangerous because they practice a form of magic that Circle's refuse to touch due to religous dogma, but an avaar is no more or less dangerous than a psychologically traumatized Circle mage. 

 

A single mundane, in a single instant, can't match a mage, but mundanes CAN do just as much damage. I mean, it was the Chantry that sundered the veil in Rivain with their exalted march. It's not just magic that weakens the veil between the mortal world and the fade, it can be torn by excessive violence and bloodshed and trauma, like the Denerim alienages's orphanage as a result of Howe's purges, and demons were coming into the world in that orphanage.

 

Something that wouldn't have happened had it not been for mundane soldiers committing barbarous acts, something that is unfortunately all too common in the lives of elves and the game of politics in Thedas. 

 

 

Uh in hindsight would you say she was wrong for that?

 

I mean looking back, The entire circle seems pretty corrupt, maybe that paranoia, that madness, had its roots in reality.

 

She ended up being right about Orsino, she ended up being right about a great many mages under her authority that were either blood mages or conspiring with them.

 

And the Grand Cleric, Maker grant her rest was a soft woman, she should have let Meredith annul the circle years before it blew up like that.

 

But the real question was if she was right because she forced the mages into a position where they had no choice but prove her right because they were desperate, or if they were truly rotten from the start. 

 

I find the Circle system in Kirkwall to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Meredith saw the dangers of mages and blood magic so put in very harsh conditions on the mages to keep it from happening, but those very conditions made the mages desperate enough to lash out, which resulted in harsh penalties, and eventually many of the mages resort to the tactics she wanted to prevent, and then she uses those mages as evidence to support having those policies in place when most of them probably wouldn't have bothered had they been treated with respect and dignity, as people with emotions.

 

I don't think Meredith was going out of her way to abuse the mages, but she certainly did nothing to stop the templars under her command who were abusing their authority, and even promoted the extremists who did in fact abuse that authority.

 

The abuse, lack of accountability of the templars, and extremely rigid and uncompromising conditions the mages had to deal with drove most of them to the very acts she wanted to prevent, when most just wanted to live their lives.

 

And when the Chantry leadership as a whole says that the Annulment was unjustified, and if Hawke supports the mages, a codex written by another Knight-Commander outright saying Meredith was wrong pretty much speaks volumes on the nature of Meredith's actions. 

 

So in hindsight, I'd say that Meredith's overzealosness created the very problem she wanted to prevent, and most of those mages you mentioned would have been innocent had she not been so harsh, or had punished the templars who actively broke Chantry law and abused their authority over mages.

[dragonflight288]

Eh Tevinter has circles and I'm pretty sure they have a more vicious way of eliminating the weak willed mages than the usual.

 

Probably, but that is merely supposition in the absence of lore.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's also no way to prove you're right either.