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Vivienne's description of relative "freedom" in circle towers: retcon, sugar coating, or her own personal experience only?


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#426
TK514

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What about those charming children with Wynne when you meet her? They are obviously no threat, but the templars would still butcher or tranquilize them if our heros hadn't arrived (Wynne says she'll fight you if you side with the Templars and propose the Right of Annulment because in addition to the innocent mages in the Tower, even the children would get killed).

Why not spare these mages and examine them after the battle is over, and then monitor them closely for some weeks? Is that too much work? I really can't think of a scenario where the right of annulment would be necessary.

 

Amalia and Connor are obvious examples of why children at not exempt.



#427
Master Warder Z_

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Amalia and Connor are obvious examples of why children at not exempt.

 

Indeed they are especially at risk of possession.



#428
thesuperdarkone2

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Now pro Templars justify child killing. Guess nothing is too forbidden for you people.

#429
TheKomandorShepard

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Now pro Templars justify child killing. Guess nothing is too forbidden for you people.

It is logical to kill few to protect far more.



#430
dragonflight288

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When she called for the annulment, the reasons were there for her call to be valid.  Yes, she used Anders as an excuse, but that only speaks to the fact that official channels failed.

 

That Annulment was not justified in that it punished the collective whole for the crime of someone outside of that group. 

 

Meredith's argument for the Annulment at the time she asks Hawke to help her, is not blood mages. It's not magical corruption. It's not even the mages role in Thrask's rebellion to oust Meredith. 

 

Her one and only reason to appeal to the Champion for aid with the Annulment is "magic has destroyed the Chantry. The people will demand blood." That is her entire argument for Annulment at the time she calls for it. 

 

As such, being right about Orsino being a blood mage or hiding blood mages, and there being blood mages hidden in the Circle is irrelevant. When she says "the people will demand blood because magic killed the Grand Cleric," and Orsino says "The Circle didn't even DO this!" I'm more inclined to side with the mages in this conflict because they are not being punished for something they did or even for corruption in the Circle. The stated reason at the time Annulment is called is because the Grand Cleric was killed by magic and Meredith was going to give the people blood. 

 

So her reasons for calling Annulment are irrelevant because she gave none of those reasons at the time she called it. 

 

 

I'll ask you a question I find startlingly relevant here.

 

Does it honestly matter? These mages became what people fear from mages, demon summoning, mind controlling, walking abominations. If the answer to that question to you is yes, then I'll ask another. Does what they endure justify that? If not, then what is was the purpose of it? How does using blood magic, summoning demons and alike actually gain them freedom?

 

How does vengeance become justice? If you will forgive that horrible pun.

 

If your answer to the first question is no then I'll simply conclude with this.

 

Kirkwall dug its own grave, regardless of what drove them to it, what justification they had.

 

By reacting as they did, they condemned themselves in the eyes of their own institution.

 

 

Oh you mean the ones who weren't murdered in cold blood by a mage?

 

It matters in that they are people who, ought to be treated with a certain level of caution simply because of the nature of magic itself, but they are people nonetheless, and most of them are not guilty of any crimes. 

 

Vengeance isn't justice, as Anders clearly shows, but desperate acts aren't vengeance either. There are quite a few court cases in real life where desperation or acting under duress got them off the charge. It's circumstantial and changes from person to person, but in many cases in Kirkwall I feel Templars, or the corrupt ones, were the driving force behind most of the mages acts. There are a few cases where you have a genuinely bad mage, but the vast majority of mages I saw in DA2 were desperate because of how heavy-handed the templars were, and how the punishment pretty much always went far beyond the crime.

 

And let me ask you a question.

 

Where is the justice for every mage who suffered at the hands of a templar who abused their authority over mages? 

 

Justice, as a concept and not the spirit, punishes only the guilty in accordance to the severity of the crime. If a mage is living in the Circle and isn't breaking any Chantry rules or laws, and gets raped or illegally made tranquil by the templars, then justice dictates that the templar in question punished.

 

Justice is not one-sided. It punishes the guilty regardless of status. It doesn't deal in grey. Only black and white, absolutes. It cares nothing for if the guilty party or the victims is a mage, templar or a farmer. 

 

So yes, I say it very much matters, at least in regards to Kirkwall I'll always support the mages there, not because I support blood mages or abusing magical power, but because they suffered unjustly at the hands of a corrupt system that will not punish its own.

 

The templars have shown, through their abuse of authority, that they are not fit to be the caretakers of mages in the Circles. They have become too corrupt and biased due to centuries of religious fervor and practices.

 

And no, I meant the Chantry leadership in Val Royeaux, the ones who oversee ALL templars and Chantry practices, and supposed to oversee the Seekers. The Divine, and her aids felt that Meredith's call for Annulment was unjustified.


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#431
TK514

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No one inside? Given the context, that is in no way exclusive to the mages. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

The fact is, Meredith and the others at large didn't want an Annulment because it was right, or effective. They wanted it because it was easy, and they could feel vindicated on top of that. That is the perfect summation of the Chantry and Seekers approach to Kirkwall: minimum effort. They did a great job of letting everyone know that they were absolutely aware of the situation, and were beyond displeased, but Maker forbid they actually do anything about it.

 

Screw PC intervention. Meredith asks for help in liquidating the mages, rationalizing that it would be best to get the chaos out of the streets as quickly as possible. Of course, there wouldn't be fighting on the streets in the first place, if she hadn't just told the mages they were going to be killed for a crime they didn't commit. So I'm perfectly content with no intervention at all. Let the chaos spill over without inhibition, and the horror be brought to the people's doorsteps. Let the blood flow indiscriminate.

 

So your answer is, rather than the unfortunate deaths of a few, let the world burn.



#432
dragonflight288

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Now pro Templars justify child killing. Guess nothing is too forbidden for you people.

 

That is kind of uncalled for. 

 

I generally support mages, especially in the context of Kirkwall, but personal attacks are never appropriate, be it from templar supporters or mage supporters. 


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#433
Barquiel

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Amalia and Connor are obvious examples of why children at not exempt.


Yes, and it was more than obvious that they are possessed. But the children in the Ferelden Tower showed no sign of possession. Their only crime is being born with magical ability.

I admit, how people can defend this is somewhat beyond me…

#434
TK514

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Yes, and it was more than obvious that they are possessed. But the children in the Ferelden Tower showed no sign of possession. Their only crime is being born with magical ability.

I admit, how people can defend this is somewhat beyond me…

 

Really?  Remind me, who knew Amalia was possessed aside from the PC's party that was there when it happened?


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#435
thesuperdarkone2

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That Annulment was not justified in that it punished the collective whole for the crime of someone outside of that group. 
 
Meredith's argument for the Annulment at the time she asks Hawke to help her, is not blood mages. It's not magical corruption. It's not even the mages role in Thrask's rebellion to oust Meredith. 
 
Her one and only reason to appeal to the Champion for aid with the Annulment is "magic has destroyed the Chantry. The people will demand blood." That is her entire argument for Annulment at the time she calls for it. 
 
As such, being right about Orsino being a blood mage or hiding blood mages, and there being blood mages hidden in the Circle is irrelevant. When she says "the people will demand blood because magic killed the Grand Cleric," and Orsino says "The Circle didn't even DO this!" I'm more inclined to side with the mages in this conflict because they are not being punished for something they did or even for corruption in the Circle. The stated reason at the time Annulment is called is because the Grand Cleric was killed by magic and Meredith was going to give the people blood. 
 
So her reasons for calling Annulment are irrelevant because she gave none of those reasons at the time she called it. 
 
 

 
It matters in that they are people who, ought to be treated with a certain level of caution simply because of the nature of magic itself, but they are people nonetheless, and most of them are not guilty of any crimes. 
 
Vengeance isn't justice, as Anders clearly shows, but desperate acts aren't vengeance either. There are quite a few court cases in real life where desperation or acting under duress got them off the charge. It's circumstantial and changes from person to person, but in many cases in Kirkwall I feel Templars, or the corrupt ones, were the driving force behind most of the mages acts. There are a few cases where you have a genuinely bad mage, but the vast majority of mages I saw in DA2 were desperate because of how heavy-handed the templars were, and how the punishment pretty much always went far beyond the crime.
 
And let me ask you a question.
 
Where is the justice for every mage who suffered at the hands of a templar who abused their authority over mages? 
 
Justice, as a concept and not the spirit, punishes only the guilty in accordance to the severity of the crime. If a mage is living in the Circle and isn't breaking any Chantry rules or laws, and gets raped or illegally made tranquil by the templars, then justice dictates that the templar in question punished.
 
Justice is not one-sided. It punishes the guilty regardless of status. It doesn't deal in grey. Only black and white, absolutes. It cares nothing for if the guilty party or the victims is a mage, templar or a farmer. 
 
So yes, I say it very much matters, at least in regards to Kirkwall I'll always support the mages there, not because I support blood mages or abusing magical power, but because they suffered unjustly at the hands of a corrupt system that will not punish its own.
 
The templars have shown, through their abuse of authority, that they are not fit to be the caretakers of mages in the Circles. They have become too corrupt and biased due to centuries of religious fervor and practices.
 
And no, I meant the Chantry leadership in Val Royeaux, the ones who oversee ALL templars and Chantry practices, and supposed to oversee the Seekers. The Divine, and her aids felt that Meredith's call for Annulment was unjustified.

Don't forget the magebane shield description which outright says that an annulment was declared to cover up that the knight commander went on a Mage killing spree.

Also, would Meredith supports still help her if a ferelden refugee blew up the chantry and she ordered the execution of every Ferelden in Kirkwall due to people wanting justice?
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#436
ComedicSociopathy

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Really?  Remind me, who knew Amalia was possessed aside from that party that was there when it happened?

 

You'd think that Templars would be able to tell the difference between a possessed mage and one that's not possessed. 


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#437
TK514

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You'd think that Templars would be able to tell the difference between a possessed mage and one that's not possessed. 

 

And yet we're explicitly told that they can't in DA:O.


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#438
Steelcan

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You'd think that Templars would be able to tell the difference between a possessed mage and one that's not possessed.

possessed ones tend to start butchering everyone and everything in sight, its a good starting point

#439
ComedicSociopathy

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And yet we're explicitly told that they can't in DA:O.

 

1. Where do they say this in Origins?

2. Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition says that you can test for possession. 



#440
Master Warder Z_

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Where is the justice for every mage who suffered at the hands of a templar who abused their authority over mages? 

 

Where is the justice for every blood thrall in Tevinter? Where is the justice for all the people the Qunari mind erased?

 

It is all  within the same place: nowhere.

 

Where is the justice for every Templar struck down by mage for simply doing his duty? Where is the Justice for every person slain by a rampaging abomination, when the locals go "Oh well...its like if your house fell in." Where is the justice for all the innocents harmed by magic, themselves included?

 

If you want an arbitrary concept like 'justice' to be upheld you need to look at the root cause itself.

 

Human nature.



#441
Steelcan

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The Right of Annulment in general isn't a terrible idea. If the Hero of Ferelden hadn't intervened Wynne and her brrod would have undoubtedly fallen prey to the abominations eventually.

And if there weren't enough templars to kill all the abominations then they'd have spread out across Ferelden. They would have been wrong to kill plainly not possessed children that were actively resisting demons, but that's only because the situation wasn't a total loss yet, it was still a salvageable one by the Warden.

#442
Master Warder Z_

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1. Where do they say this in Origins?

2. Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition says that you can test for possession. 

 

1. When Cullen and Gregoir talk after the boss battle with Uldred if you don't immediately agree with Greg, Greg will reluctantly admit there is no method of determining if they are in pact with demon.

2. Using blood magic or physical violence :P



#443
ComedicSociopathy

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Where is the justice for every blood thrall in Tevinter? Where is the justice for all the people the Qunari mind erased?

 

It is all  within the same place: nowhere.

 

Where is the justice for every Templar struck down by mage for simply doing his duty? Where is the Justice for every person slain by a rampaging abomination, when the locals go "Oh well...its like if your house fell in." Where is the justice for all the innocents harmed by magic, themselves included?

 

If you want an arbitrary concept like 'justice' to be upheld you need to look at the root cause itself.

 

Human nature.

 

So just because their are instances of justice not being served in the world we shouldn't bother with attempting to uphold it?



#444
Master Warder Z_

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So just because their are instances of justice not being served in the world we shouldn't bother with attempting to uphold it?

 

Not at the level he'd want.

 

Practicality will serve far better.

 

Justice is a resource that organizations and nations can scarcely afford more often then not.



#445
ComedicSociopathy

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1. When Cullen and Gregoir talk after the boss battle with Uldred if you don't immediately agree with Greg, Greg will reluctantly admit there is no method of determining if they are in pact with demon.

2. Using blood magic or physical violence :P

 

1. Which is why he'll detain them until he can be relatively sure that their trustworthy. Also, making a pact with a demon and being an abomination aren't necessarily the same thing. 

2. Templars use blood magic to power their phylacteries, so why not use another form of it to determine whether a mage is an abomination? I'd rather be punched in the gut to prove I'm not abomination then be immediately sentenced as one and killed. 



#446
The Baconer

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So your answer is, rather than the unfortunate deaths of a few, let the world burn.

 

That's exactly what is happening, facilitating the unfortunate deaths of a few, so that more are spared in the future. The point is to make the people know that this is a problem that affects everyone. With a contained Annulment, they'll simply click their tongues, thinking "horrible thing, but I'm sure it was for the best", and nothing will be solved. Come the new generation of mages within the Gallows, the cycle will continue. Corruption among mages and Templars alike will still be rampant, mages will kill Templars, Templars will kill mages, commoners will get caught in the crossfire.

 

Alternatively, Meredith's ****-up that leads to open warfare and demon summoning on the streets is a problem they can't ignore. Now the Chantry must commit to some kind of effort at overhauling the Gallows.



#447
Master Warder Z_

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1. Which is why he'll detain them until he can be relatively sure that their trustworthy. Also, making a pact with a demon and being an abomination aren't necessarily the same thing. 

 

You asked, I told.

 

The lines are there.



#448
MisterJB

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At the time of the Annulment, Meredith's decisions are being based on what the voices in her head, who just happen to be part of the curse the Maker placed on the world per Chantry lore, tell her to do. The same voices who told Bartrand to carve up his servants.

Following the advice of the crazy, Tainted lady with way too much power on her hands is a bad idea.


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#449
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Now pro Templars justify child killing. Guess nothing is too forbidden for you people.

Nothing necessary is too forbidden for us. That's an important distinction.



#450
Ariella

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Now the Chantry must commit to some kind of effort at overhauling the Gallows.


Overhaul? That island should be burned to the bare earth, salted and no one should ever set foot there again.

All the bloody history that would make the veil thin and that's the ideal place to put a circle of magi. An institution dedicated to protecting mages from possession.

Not to mention Kirkwall is Thedas' Hellmouth with all the weird crap the band of three found.