1551 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Overhaul? That island should be burned to the bare earth, salted and no one should ever set foot there again.

All the bloody history that would make the veil thin and that's the ideal place to put a circle of magi. An institution dedicated to protecting mages from possession.

Not to mention Kirkwall is Thedas' Hellmouth with all the weird crap the band of three found.

 

Yes, the best solution is to probably not even have a Circle located in Kirkwall, which is another consideration they would have to take.

[MisterJB]

What about those charming children with Wynne when you meet her? They are obviously no threat, but the templars would still butcher or tranquilize them if our heros hadn't arrived (Wynne says she'll fight you if you side with the Templars and propose the Right of Annulment because in addition to the innocent mages in the Tower, even the children would get killed).

Why not spare these mages and examine them after the battle is over, and then monitor them closely for some weeks? Is that too much work? I really can't think of a scenario where the right of annulment would be necessary.

 

Let's say during an Annulment, the Templars discover 50 mages resisting the demons. They leave the non combantants behind and enlist the rest. Great, right?

Well, what if they were all possessed. Now, when you meet the main force of the demons, they will reveal their true selves and attack the Templars from within their lines.

And if they try to retreat, those left behind will be there to box them in.

 

It's not an easy decision. Yes, you risk killing  innocent people. Just like you are taking a risk if you do not kill them.
 

[TK514]

That's exactly what is happening, facilitating the unfortunate deaths of a few, so that more are spared in the future. The point is to make the people know that this is a problem that affects everyone. With a contained Annulment, they'll simply click their tongues, thinking "horrible thing, but I'm sure it was for the best", and nothing will be solved. Come the new generation of mages within the Gallows, the cycle will continue. Corruption among mages and Templars alike will still be rampant, mages will kill Templars, Templars will kill mages, commoners will get caught in the crossfire.

 

Alternatively, Meredith's ****-up that leads to open warfare and demon summoning on the streets is a problem they can't ignore. Now the Chantry must commit to some kind of effort at overhauling the Gallows.

 

I suppose you are I are just going to have to disagree about the scale of 'a few'.  The best outcome I could see from your way would be moving the mages to somewhere that isn't Kirkwall, but that's hardly going to solve the underlying problem, nor would it, in any way, show that Annulment wasn't justified.  If anything, it would suggest that annulment should have happened earlier, and I don't think that's the lesson you'd like the Chantry to learn.

[MisterJB]

Now pro Templars justify child killing. Guess nothing is too forbidden for you people.

Yes, Pro-Templars contemplate the possibility of having to kill children for the greater good and deal with everything that carries.

 

Pro-mages release bombs into the general population and if they explode and kill children, they can just shrugg their shoulders, avoid taking up any responsability because "it's not what we wanted, non-mages kill people too" and continue to pretend they have the moral high ground.

[The Baconer]

I suppose you are I are just going to have to disagree about the scale of 'a few'. 

 

As in: less than the number that would be killed in future, later annulments and conflicts. I don't personally feel comfortable labeling all the Circle mages as being "a few" either, but I guess if your demographic is considered an acceptable target it stops being horrific.

 

The best outcome I could see from your way would be moving the mages to somewhere that isn't Kirkwall, but that's hardly going to solve the underlying problem, nor would it, in any way, show that Annulment wasn't justified.  If anything, it would suggest that annulment should have happened earlier, and I don't think that's the lesson you'd like the Chantry to learn.

 

The Annulment is going to happen one way or another. If it is a bloody, destructive, and terrifying mess for all involved (perfect conditions for the situation in which Meredith declared it), then it will be more abundantly clear for the Chantry that the management was unsustainable and ineffective. They can only blame themselves.

[TK514]

As in: less than the number that would be killed in future, later annulments and conflicts. I don't personally feel comfortable labeling all the Circle mages as being "a few" either, but I guess if your demographic is considered an acceptable target it stops being horrific.

 

 

The Annulment is going to happen one way or another. If it is a bloody, destructive, and terrifying mess for all involved (perfect conditions for the situation in which Meredith declared it), then it will be more abundantly clear for the Chantry that the management was unsustainable and ineffective. They can only blame themselves.

 

There is a significant difference between 'acceptable' and 'necessary'.  Nothing in your suggestion prevents future annulments or conflicts.  In fact, you're basically advocating Anders' methods, and that led directly to another annulment and all out war.

[Master Warder Z_]

 

Yes, Pro-Templars contemplate the possibility of having to kill children for the greater good and deal with everything that carries.

 

Pro-mages release bombs into the general population and if they explode and kill children, they can just shrugg their shoulders, avoid taking up any responsability because "it's not what we wanted, non-mages kill people too" and continue to pretend they have the moral high ground.

 

 

It's done for the lulz obviously.

[Iakus]

 

2. Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition says that you can test for possession. 

Mages can test for possession.  Merrill and Anders could test Keran to make sure he isn't possessed.  But it must be something rather specialized, as Bethany cannot.(she says she hasn't made a study of demons)

 

That said, Gregoir would have to bring in more mages to test the Circle survivors, which takes time.  I doubt Wynne could do it all on her own, after all.  

[TK514]

Mages can test for possession.  Merrill and Anders could test Keran to make sure he isn't possessed.  But it must be something rather specialized, as Bethany cannot.(she says she hasn't made a study of demons)

 

That said, Gregoir would have to bring in more mages to test the Circle survivors, which takes time.  I doubt Wynne could do it all on her own, after all.  

 

For that matter, Anders' method is, at best, a guess, and Merril's is, if I recall correctly, 'smelling blood magic'.  Which is probably why, after they've administered their 'tests', you still have the option to be suspicious.

[MisterJB]

Lass, we live in a world that has Circles. And those Circles have to be guarded by men with swords and lyrium. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Leliana ? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Fiona and you curse the Templars. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Fiona's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that Circle. You need me on that Circle. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a woman who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way.

 

 

 

[ComedicSociopathy]

 

Yes, Pro-Templars contemplate the possibility of having to kill children for the greater good and deal with everything that carries.

 

Pro-mages release bombs into the general population and if they explode and kill children, they can just shrugg their shoulders, avoid taking up any responsability because "it's not what we wanted, non-mages kill people too" and continue to pretend they have the moral high ground.

 

 

Pro-Mage and Pro-Anders terrorism are not the same thing. At least in my eyes. That bastard gets the murder knife as far am concerned. 

 

Anyways, while I obviously consider killing children a horrible travesty I'm willing to consider that in extreme cases where said child is an rampaging abomination killing people every which way with no possibility of using the Connor or Avvar method of exorcism to free him or her that ending their life is necessary.

 

But killing a child just because there's a chance that he's secretly an abomination or could be become one regardless of circumstances feels far to extreme. 

[dragonflight288]

Where is the justice for every blood thrall in Tevinter? Where is the justice for all the people the Qunari mind erased?

 

It is all  within the same place: nowhere.

 

Where is the justice for every Templar struck down by mage for simply doing his duty? Where is the Justice for every person slain by a rampaging abomination, when the locals go "Oh well...its like if your house fell in." Where is the justice for all the innocents harmed by magic, themselves included?

 

If you want an arbitrary concept like 'justice' to be upheld you need to look at the root cause itself.

 

Human nature.

 

The issue with your examples in comparison to the mage/templar dilemma in the Circles is really straightforward. 

 

The Qunari and the Imperium are entire societies. Yes, there should be justice for the people oppressed, but their laws in their societies, while are not right, make their actions legal, agree with them or not, and I don't agree with them at all. 

 

In the case of the Circle's and how mages and templars get along, there are written laws given by the Chantry that are meant to protect mages and the templars are supposed to uphold them, and the Seekers are supposed to root out corruption from within the chantry and the templars. 

 

But the real issue is that the templars, especially in Kirkwall, are deliberately breaking Chantry law and are abusing their authority over mages, and the Seekers under Lambert, and possibly before him, are ignoring their own duties in favor of an ideology and are deliberately overlooking corruption and turning the other way.

 

When a law is set, there are consequences for breaking it, consequences that are meant to discourage others from breaking that law as well. But when the rules are not enforced, the consequences and the punishments never come, then the system fails. 

 

The Circle's purpose is designed to protect mages from the world, but also to protect the world from the dangers of magic. 

 

Just because Tevinter has slaves and blood magic, the Qunari have removed all concept of free will and choice does not mean I can't stand up for the people abused by any system. It just so happens that this thread is about mages and magic, so I will point out that the templars have failed their mandate to protect mages and protect the world, and the system that they fought to uphold is inherently flawed.

 

Not that it matters really, since Cassandra, Vivienne or Leliana each address the issue with the Circle's in each gamer's individual playthrough and players can choose which path they want to take. 

[dragonflight288]

Mages can test for possession.  Merrill and Anders could test Keran to make sure he isn't possessed.  But it must be something rather specialized, as Bethany cannot.(she says she hasn't made a study of demons)

 

That said, Gregoir would have to bring in more mages to test the Circle survivors, which takes time.  I doubt Wynne could do it all on her own, after all.  

 

Wynne wouldn't even pass anyway since she actually IS possessed. 

[The Baconer]

There is a significant difference between 'acceptable' and 'necessary'. 

 

Could have fooled me.

 

 

Nothing in your suggestion prevents future annulments or conflicts.

 

The alternative will only aggrandize future annulments and conflicts of the same kind that lead to the most recent cataclysm.

 

 

In fact, you're basically advocating Anders' methods, and that led directly to another annulment and all out war.

 

Anders' bomb itself was a preventable issue (one that would, in fact, fall directly under the Seekers' jurisdiction), but we seem to be operating on the assumption that the state of the Circle would have rendered an Annulment justified regardless of the reason Meredith used to enact it. If that is true, the next question should be why the Gallows had arrived at that state, and what can be done to mitigate that. The Chantry, at the time, was not interested in any of this, and they were perfectly content to stay hands-off as long as it never escalated to a scandal that would reflect poorly on them.

 

So, if a mass-death event cannot be avoided, it can either occur in a way that forces a progressive change in the Circle system, or all the Templar, mage, and civilian lives lost can be all for nothing (the implication of siding with Meredith).

[Master Warder Z_]

 and the Seekers under Lambert, and possibly before him, are ignoring their own duties in favor of an ideology and are deliberately overlooking corruption and turning the other way.

 

Actually if you recall what Cassandra literally said: They thought Meredith was justified given how many cases of magical abuse, blood magic, demon summoning, possession etc.

 

When you have literal mountains of evidence, its hard to not be taken at your word.

[MisterJB]

Pro-Mage and Pro-Anders terrorism are not the same thing. At least in my eyes. That bastard gets the murder knife as far am concerned. 

 

Anyways, while I obviously consider killing children a horrible travesty I'm willing to consider that in extreme cases where said child is an rampaging abomination killing people every which way with no possibility of using the Connor or Avvar method of exorcism to free him or her that ending their life is necessary.

 

But killing a child just because there's a chance that he's secretly an abomination or could be become regardless of circumstances feels far to extreme. 

 

By "bombs", I meant free mages.
 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Lass, we live in a world that has Circles. And those Circles have to be guarded by men with swords and lyrium. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Leliana ? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Fiona and you curse the Templars. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Fiona's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that Circle. You need me on that Circle. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a woman who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way.

 

 

Probably. Maybe. Possibly. Might of. 

 

I'm not going to weep for that idiotic Fiona clone they had in this game, but questioning someone's methods and tactics for protecting others doesn't need to be a bad thing, right. There's always room to improve your policy and make things better for everyone, yes. Vivienne and Cassandra seem to think so anyway. Having a closer examination of things like the Rite of Annulment would be equitable for both sides. Just a thought.

 

Oh, nice reference by the way. Gotta love Nicholson hamming it up with a speech. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Actually if you recall what Cassandra literally said: They thought Meredith was justified given how many cases of magical abuse, blood magic, demon summoning, possession etc.

 

When you have literal mountains of evidence, its hard to not be taken at your word.

 

Tons of extreme amounts of blood magic, demon summoning, possession and a Knight-Commander whose methods don't seem to be helping the situation...

 

Seekers: Not our problem! 

[TK514]

Could have fooled me.

 

If you can't tell the difference, I can't help you.

 

 

The alternative will only aggrandize future annulments and conflicts of the same kind that lead to the most recent cataclysm.

 

The Ferelden Annulment had no such effect.  You seem to be drawing conclusions with no basis.

 

Anders' bomb itself was a preventable issue (one that would, in fact, fall directly under the Seekers' jurisdiction), but we seem to be operating on the assumption that the state of the Circle would have rendered an Annulment justified regardless of the reason Meredith used to enact it. If that is true, the next question should be why the Gallows had arrived at that state, and what can be done to mitigate that. The Chantry, at the time, was not interested in any of this, and they were perfectly content to stay hands-off as long as it never escalated to a scandal that would reflect poorly on them.

 

Anders, and by extension his bomb, fell under Templar jurisdiction as an Apostate/Abomination, and they were, in fact, hunting him.  A conversation you can have directly with Cullen.  The Chantry, in the person of the Divine, was extremely interested in the events of Kirkwall, which is why Leliana was sent with the explicit message that Elthina should remove to Val Royeaux before things got worse and/or the Exalted March showed up.

 

So, if a mass-death event cannot be avoided, it can either occur in a way that forces a progressive change in the Circle system, or all the Templar, mage, and civilian lives lost can be all for nothing (the implication of siding with Meredith).

 

Nothing you've suggested would force the Chantry to consider change, and, from my perspective, your methods only lead to more persecution and fear, particularly against mages, and act as a justification for increased Templar crackdown, even among those that might have previously have been moderate.

[Boost32]

If you blame their system for Hakkon, does that mean you blame the Circle system for Connor and Redcliff? Or do you blame individuals?

And all mages are dangerous. Just like all guards are dangerous, all nobles involved in the game of politics are dangerous, every soldier and chevalier is also dangerous.

The avaar mages are especially dangerous because they practice a form of magic that Circle's refuse to touch due to religous dogma, but an avaar is no more or less dangerous than a psychologically traumatized Circle mage.

A single mundane, in a single instant, can't match a mage, but mundanes CAN do just as much damage. I mean, it was the Chantry that sundered the veil in Rivain with their exalted march. It's not just magic that weakens the veil between the mortal world and the fade, it can be torn by excessive violence and bloodshed and trauma, like the Denerim alienages's orphanage as a result of Howe's purges, and demons were coming into the world in that orphanage.

Something that wouldn't have happened had it not been for mundane soldiers committing barbarous acts, something that is unfortunately all too common in the lives of elves and the game of politics in Thedas.

The system have not fail with Connor, have he been sent to the Circle Redcliff would not have happened, Hakkon was summoned by mages taught by the Avvar system, there is no way a Circle mage would have done something like that.

The comparsion is bad, the level of destruction of a mage is way bigger than a guard and can be way bigger than a noble. Mages created the biggest horror in Thedas, there is no noble that can compare to what mages can do nanda even then the nobles need a lot of people to compare the destruction a single mage can cause.

Ofc he is, they summoned a powerful spirit and put it in a dragon, how it is not more dangerous than a Circle mage?

Again, to compare the damage you need a lot of mudane to have the same power of destruction a single mage have, you need to acknowledging it.

And how it relate to mages? Mages doesnt even need to want to do horrible things for it to happen, they need constant supervision, they cant be let on their own.

[The Baconer]

The Ferelden Annulment had no such effect.  You seem to be drawing conclusions with no basis.

 

 

What are you even talking about? What does the Ferelden Annulment have to do with anything?

 

 

Anders, and by extension his bomb, fell under Templar jurisdiction as an Apostate/Abomination, and they were, in fact, hunting him.  A conversation you can have directly with Cullen.  The Chantry, in the person of the Divine, was extremely interested in the events of Kirkwall, which is why Leliana was sent with the explicit message that Elthina should remove to Val Royeaux before things got worse and/or the Exalted March showed up.

 

Mages that are beyond the Templars' abilities to track down and pacify become a matter for the Seekers.

 

The Divine had enough of a vested interest to send a single agent, who then proclaims with confidence that some fringe group was behind the unrest, and then summarily f***s off, content with her erroneous perspective of Kirkwall's situation. Years later, the tension is still not resolved, the Chantry still can't be bothered to give a single f***. This was the scope of their competence, and it's really not surprising that things went ass-up the way they did.

 

 

Nothing you've suggested would force the Chantry to consider change, and, from my perspective, your methods only lead to more persecution and fear, particularly against mages, and act as a justification for increased Templar crackdown, even among those that might have previously have been moderate.

 

That would be the case if they lacked the presence of mind to follow up with an inquiry, in order to discern exactly why it turned so back and why Meredith's methods weren't working.

 

Well, as it turns it out they did opt for the path of willful ignorance, and as expected the "Meredith just wasn't Meredithin' enough" approach only begat more death and destruction. It's a shame that it took that many gallons of blood for them to realize which way is up.

[Master Warder Z_]

and a Knight-Commander whose methods don't seem to be helping the situation...

She had many admirers as you recall

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

She had many admirers as you recall

That means very little as far as how much good she was doing.

[Master Warder Z_]

That means very little as far as how much good she was doing.

 

I'm just saying, she had as many fans as critics which could have confounded the issue even more then the positive reports.

 

If the Seekers are told she's doing an excellent job with a rebellious circle and the accounts, paper work and etc all match up with that...well what are you going to do? Go in there and what stalk every one of the Templar Garrison and Mage circle to see if their inaccurate?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm just saying, she had as many fans as critics which could have confounded the issue even more then the positive reports.

 

If the Seekers are told she's doing an excellent job with a rebellious circle and the accounts, paper work and etc all match up with that...well what are you going to do? Go in there and what stalk every one of the Templar Garrison and Mage circle to see if their inaccurate?

Isn't that kinda their job?