1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Excella Gionne]

I like listening to Solas and Vivienne's arguments on the Circles. It's truly engaging.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

The Ferelden circle was supposed to be the most liberal of them and the mages weren't even allowed to go outside after Anders escaped a few (dozen) times. Then again, Finn and Ines could apparently go on long, unsupervised field trips. You'd think they'd spare a templar or two.

So really, Anders was screwing it up for mages long before his little act of terrorism in Kirkwall.

*pats Anders on the back*

Good job buddy.

[LightningPoodle]

Why people necro I'll never understand. Well I will, and I do, but seriously? Let old ghosts rest and all that jazz.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

I'd say it's her personal experience. The Circles lasted a very long time. Even when they did break, it wasn't a threshold reached by natural progression. Anders nuked the place, and Meredith had gone mad.

Templars are not badguys by default, and mages are less than likely to be well-adjusted. Dragon Age II went to great lengths to show how unstable the whole thing was. Templars say mages can't be trusted, so what do the mages do? Show everyone that they can't be trusted.

[GranfalloonMembr]

Vivenne outright admits she never lived in a Circle. I'd say take her opinions with a grain of salt. I doubt she'd be as positive if she lived in a more restrictive Circle like Kirkwall.

 

THIS!!!!

 

You know what Vivienne reminds me of, from the real world?

 

Vivienne reminds me of the sort of person who happened to get filthy, stinking rich through a combination of hard work and lucky breaks. Which is not bad in and of itself...but some people who accomplish this and live in the lap of luxury with more money than they know what to do with end up having zero sympathy for poor people.

 

If you ask for their thoughts on poor people, they will say something like "They're just lazy bums. I worked hard and got rich, and it's easy. If they don't have jobs and aren't rich, it's because they aren't even trying. They're all pathetic and you shouldn't shed any tears for them."

 

Similarly, if you ask for Vivienne's thoughts on mages, she's like "They're all like spoiled children, ungrateful for the power that was handed to them and throwing a tantrum. Life in a Circle wasn't bad for me, so I really doubt it could have been that bad for anybody else. I mean, surely Kirkwall was the exception and most Circles treated mages as well as mine did."

 

Vivienne had the good fortune to land in a Circle without harsh templars, the good fortune to be given permission to live outside that Circle's tower, and the good fortune to catch a noble's eye.

 

This is a woman who approves of sentencing a prisoner to the Rite of Tranquility. Forget about what the prisoner did or what kind of person the prisoner was, that is a fate far worse than death, as we saw with Karl in DA2. If Vivienne had ever actually lived in a Circle where she was in danger of being made Tranquil, she would likely not wish it on anybody. But she has never known true hardship, so she has no compassion for her fellow mages who have experienced true hardship.

 

Think about this: you know how Cullen wanted to use the Rite of Annulment on the Ferelden Circle in Origins, and how Cullen didn't trust mages as far as he could throw them in the second game? Well, now Cullen of all people thinks that mages should have more freedom than they used to, while Vivienne thinks that there was nothing wrong with the old system.

 

Vivienne speaks from the privileged position of someone who's bedded a noble.

 

Indeed.

[Iakus]

When? She doesn't live in a circle now, but I'm fairly certain she has to have stayed at one at some point.

She's lived in two at least: Ostwick and Monstsimmard

[Iakus]

 

THIS!!!!

 

You know what Vivienne reminds me of, from the real world?

 

Vivienne reminds me of the sort of person who happened to get filthy, stinking rich through a combination of hard work and lucky breaks. Which is not bad in and of itself...but some people who accomplish this and live in the lap of luxury with more money than they know what to do with end up having zero sympathy for poor people.

 

If you ask for their thoughts on poor people, they will say something like "They're just lazy bums. I worked hard and got rich, and it's easy. If they don't have jobs and aren't rich, it's because they aren't even trying. They're all pathetic and you shouldn't shed any tears for them."

 

Similarly, if you ask for Vivienne's thoughts on mages, she's like "They're all like spoiled children, ungrateful for the power that was handed to them and throwing a tantrum. Life in a Circle wasn't bad for me, so I really doubt it could have been that bad for anybody else. I mean, surely Kirkwall was the exception and most Circles treated mages as well as mine did."

 

Vivienne had the good fortune to land in a Circle without harsh templars, the good fortune to be given permission to live outside that Circle's tower, and the good fortune to catch a noble's eye.

 

And if she is made DIvine, she works on reforming the Templar and Circle systems so all mages can have those opportunities as well.

[daveliam]

Yeah, the OP's claim that Vivienne admits to having never lived in a circle?  Not true.  She specifically talks about living in Ostwick until being transferred as an apprentice to Montsimmard, where she still has quarters. 

[Ryzaki]

I mean hell she admits to being friends with the Human mage's possible teacher (if you say she was during the conversation with her after recruiting her). If she never was in a circle how would that have occurred

[GranfalloonMembr]

I like listening to Solas and Vivienne's arguments on the Circles. It's truly engaging.

 

The one I've heard so far started out with Vivienne saying that the 

Spoiler

Grey Warden

mages lived outside the supervision of the templars and the Circle and, oh hey, look at how that turned out!

 

It's another reason I hate her so much. That's a low blow since it references recent traumatic events, and it's also a dumb argument since those mages lived outside of Circle and templar supervision for decades without all turning into abominations or trying to conquer all of Thedas or whatever.

[prosthetic soul]

Let's be honest here.  Vivienne talking about her fellow mages and how grateful they should be is ridiculous.  She's like one of those once in a blue moon African-American Republicans you see on TV wearing a $500 suit who insist on telling the impoverished minorities to "stop complaining and get a job."  Meanwhile, this conservative is living in a luxurious mansion in Rhode Island or something.  This is why I will always hate Vivienne.  She's a hypocrite and a terrible character who uses fallacious logic for why mages should be locked up in Circles. 

 

And before anyone accuses me of being liberal-biased, no.  I am not a liberal.   I'm what you'd call....well, let's just say in terms of political alignment I swing both ways.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I like listening to Solas and Vivienne's arguments on the Circles. It's truly engaging.

 

.... and in the end, Solas shows everyone why apostates are not a threat to be casually overlooked and disregarded.

[ShadowLordXII]

 Truth hurts, dudn't it?

 

Except Vivienne's "truth" isn't universally true.

 

She's speaking based on her own experiences, experiences which cannot be used to measure the lot of other mages. In fact, Vivienne's criticism of Mages isn't completely wrong, it's just has assumptions and stuff that throws it in the wrong direction. She basically throws all blame for the war at the feet of the mages while ignoring any faults of the Chantry or the Templars which even Chantry Members like Leliana, Cassandra, Cullen, Giselle, Barris, and even Justinia herself were willing to admit. That makes Viv's "truth" less truthful and more of a biased stubborn statement ignorant of the inherent failings of the sinking system that she's defending even as it continues to fail.

 

In fact, here's something I found regarding Vivienne: "When asked to compare Vivienne to food, Mary Kirby described her as "Ortolan Bunting," a notorious French dish. This kind of bird dish is a delicacy in France. The bird is caught alive and then blinded or put in a darkened cage. In the cage, the birds are force-fed until they get very fat and then drowned in a snifter of Armagnac. After which they are roasted for eight minutes."

 

Vivienne is a bird whose really comfortable with her cage and thus doesn't understand why people would want to leave this cage. And since she was exposed to the abuses and problems of the Circle System, she can't really understand why anyone would hate it, even if the alternative is genuinely worst.

[Iakus]

Except Vivienne's "truth" isn't universally true.

 

She's speaking based on her own experiences, experiences which cannot be used to measure the lot of other mages. In fact, Vivienne's criticism of Mages isn't completely wrong, it's just has assumptions and stuff that throws it in the wrong direction. She basically throws all blame for the war at the feet of the mages while ignoring any faults of the Chantry or the Templars which even Chantry Members like Leliana, Cassandra, Cullen, Giselle, Barris, and even Justinia herself were willing to admit. That makes Viv's "truth" less truthful and more of a biased stubborn statement ignorant of the inherent failings of the sinking system that she's defending even as it continues to fail.

 

Vivienne admits that her experiences aren't the same as other mages.  That each person's experience is unique.

 

SHe also admits that there have been abuses and corruption within the Templar ranks, and that there are legitimate grievances that need to be addressed.

 

What she does not agree with is open war.  As she explains it, after Anders' little church-bombing and a blood mage attempting to assassinate the DIvine, this rebellion only further legitimizes every muggle's fear of mages running amok. 

 

Edit:  Let's put it another way; Vivienne is a political animal, and to her mind, the mage rebellion was the Circles going full-on Trump.

[Master Warder Z_]

Heh necro thread

[ComedicSociopathy]

There's no such things as the "norm" for a Circle. Vivienne flat out admits that when you talk with her. Every Circle is different, with a differing dynamic between mage and templar relations and apparently even different levels of adherence to actual Chantry regulations and doctrine. In Kirkwall Meredith gets to illegally bypass Orsino and make any mage she considers a danger Tranquil, while in Rivani Circle mages are allowed to live with their families and communicate with spirits. 

 

Point is, every Circle is different and while Vivienne had the fortune of being in two different Circles that were relative liberal and gave her ample opportunities to leave her Circle on a regular basis, which of course lead her to believe that the Circle system was benign and necessary, and that the "malcontents" were being selfish and whiny, not all Circles are even remotely like Ostwick. 

 

The ultimate failing of the Circles is that the Seekers and the Chantry seemed to be pretty lax in making sure that all Circles followed the exact same model, policies and structure. 

[dragonflight288]

There's no such things as the "norm" for a Circle. Vivienne flat out admits that when you talk with her. Every Circle is different, with a differing dynamic between mage and templar relations and apparently even different levels of adherence to actual Chantry regulations and doctrine. In Kirkwall Meredith gets to illegally bypass Orsino and make any mage she considers a danger Tranquil, while in Rivani Circle mages are allowed to live with their families and communicate with spirits. 

 

Point is, every Circle is different and while Vivienne had the fortune of being in two different Circles that were relative liberal and gave her ample opportunities to leave her Circle on a regular basis, which of course lead her to believe that the Circle system was benign and necessary, and that the "malcontents" were being selfish and whiny, not all Circles are even remotely like Ostwick. 

 

The ultimate failing of the Circles is that the Seekers and the Chantry seemed to be pretty lax in making sure that all Circles followed the exact same model, policies and structure. 

 

Until the Rivaini circle got investigated because mages were allowed to spend time with families and then was annulled for training Seers, a practice that the majority of Rivaini's, even non-mages, support.

[Master Warder Z_]

Until the Rivaini circle got investigated because mages were allowed to spend time with families and then was annulled for training Seers, a practice that the majority of Rivaini's, even non-mages, support.

Because those freaks let themselves become possessed, its really no surprise that once that cat got out the of the bag, extreme steps are taken.

It flies in the face of Chantry and Circle regulations.

[dragonflight288]

Because those freaks let themselves become possessed, its really no surprise that once that cat got out the of the bag, extreme steps are taken.

It flies in the face of Chantry and Circle regulations.

 

Chantry regulations and zealotry often leads to genocide, like the 15 or so annulments, or the Rivaini born Qunari who chose not to leave for Par Vollen, and the exalted march there resulted in a sundered veil and a chantry who denied it. 

 

It seems to me that half the time there are problems with magic, the Chantry is at the root of it. Mage desperation due to templar abuses and an order of Seekers refusing to actually address corruption in the Chantry and the templars, often as Cassandra discovers in the secret book, are actually a source of corruption, as mages are not treated as people or, depending on the circle, allowed to even form relationships with each other, and when they lash out at unjust treatment, the Chantry uses it as proof that the measures were justified in the first place. 

 

Yes, they were allowing themselves to be possessed, but for all we know we have a bunch of women like Wynne or the Avaar in Jaws of Hakkon. 

 

Wynne and the Avaar Shamans alone are proof that the Chantry's approach is not actually the correct one. Their regulations are guided more on fear of the past and the potential for damage, justified potential mind you, but their heavy-handedness blinds them to alternate paths, ones that may very well be far better. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Freaks who let themselves be possessed, and when they rampage its answered with a "oh well **** happens"

*snorts*

I'm not debating the humanity of abominations because its not debatable. They have none, subhuman wretches who are better off dead.

Like those Qunari you mentioned.

There are no alternatives with Qunari or Demons. You kill them or they kill you.

Weekes can butcher the lore all he likes to pretty that up but its that simple

[Master Warder Z_]

And you can not bother replying, I'm not interested in a debate

[GoldenGail3]

What about Wynne? Does she not count?

[dragonflight288]

What about Wynne? Does she not count?

 

According to some of the more-hardcore chantry and templar defenders (not all) then she does not count. 

 

Because technically under Chantry and Circle definitions, she IS an abomination. And the definition for abomination for the Chantry and the Templars is "any mage that is possessed." 

[GoldenGail3]

True, but she isn't Anders. Anders.... Was a living defenation of a abomantion gone rogue.