If the Seekers are told she's doing an excellent job with a rebellious circle and the accounts, paper work and etc all match up with that...well what are you going to do? Go in there and what stalk every one of the Templar Garrison and Mage circle to see if their inaccurate?
Yes? Especially when the condition of the Circle is not seeing an actual improvement after a decade?
Yes? Especially when the condition of the Circle is not seeing an actual improvement after a decade?
You know, since the thread began with Vivienne, I would like to give my thoughts on her.
I do not like Vivienne because she is only in it for herself, a quality that I find distasteful in people in games as much as I do in real life. Everything that Vivienne does is ultimately to advance her position and interests. She seems to lack compassion and empathy. Even when her lover dies, from a weird concoction that no one has ever heard before in game that somehow mysteriously failed, she shows little sadness and instead uses his death to get herself more power.
Some might say that the fact that she warms up to some of the followers as well as the Inquisitor and use this as proof of her being redeemable. However, does it really say much about someone that they have the ability to make friends? Even self-absorbed jerks want to have friends, because it gives them people to surround themselves with who will reinforce how awesome they are.
You know that saying about "If you on a date and your partner is nice to you but mean to the waitress, they are not a nice person"? That is Vivienne in a nutshell. She simply has no regard for people outside of her circle that do not have something to offer her. Look at how she treat Blackwall, for instance.
It's the same "F**k you if you're not my friend" attitude that you see in politicians and other rich powerful people. If she tithes to charity, it isn't because she cares about the poor and the weak, it is because it is the politically correct and expected thing to do. It is no different when some politician poses with some cute babies for votes.
It has been mentioned and it is common knowledge that Vivienne is supportive of Templars but not Mages, but did not touch on the reason for that: See, supporting the Templar order is a politically correct thing to do with the people Vivienne wishes to ingratiate herself with, the nobility and the Chantry, while supporting mages is not. Therefore, Vivienne does not support the Mages, even though she has had every opportunity to understand the motivation behind the mage rebellion.
I can imagine Vivienne being very pro-Mage if she was born and raised in Tevinter, because that is the politically correct opinion there and because being pro-Mage in Tevinter would let her move up through the Magisterium and the Imperial Chantry.
Does this mean I hate Templars ? No. I can see myself getting along well enough with Cassandra and Cullen and their ideas, especially Cullen's idea on how Mages should be supervised and Cassandra on how she plans to reform the Seekers. However Cullen and Cassandra have these opinions because of something more profound that political correctness.
As a player, I really cannot fault the writing because there are plenty of people like Vivienne around in the real world, and people like that would inevitably try to play nice with the Inquisition in order to advance their goals. For what she is, she's written quite well.
Nonetheless, from a roleplaying perspective I think she is a shallow and self-absorbed person who I know would turn on anyone in the party or the organization if she thought it would offer her a leg up in the grand scheme of things. I would go as far as to say that Vivienne reminds me of Littlefinger from Game of Thrones and no, that is not a compliment.
In that respect she is completely untrustworthy as a companion and a threat to the integrity of the Inquisition if she decides that throwing her lot in with another organization or another group would serve her better. I keep her at arm's length to keep an eye on her, but I would never trust her to have my back and I would not give her the opportunity to acquire any power.
Tl;dr: Scheming politicians suck.
It has been mentioned and it is common knowledge that Vivienne is supportive of Templars but not Mages, but did not touch on the reason for that: See, supporting the Templar order is a politically correct thing to do with the people Vivienne wishes to ingratiate herself with, the nobility and the Chantry, while supporting mages is not. Therefore, Vivienne does not support the Mages, even though she has had every opportunity to understand the motivation behind the mage rebellion.
I don't think so because Vivienne's position about the circles never changes no matter who she is talking to. She really believes that the circles are the best thing for everyone, or would be if they were run more consistently.
I don't think so because Vivienne's position about the circles never changes no matter who she is talking to. She really believes that the circles are the best thing for everyone, or would be if they were run more consistently.
I stated that her opinion will change if she was born and raised in Tevinter or if she is living in Tevinter and wishes to engage in politicking there. Look at her the way you would look at a politician or at Littlefinger.
While I don't have the time to address most of what's going on in this thread, (I'm currently sitting in my GM's living room hoping the mechanics argument ends and the game starts back up) this bit I can just refute right off. Circle mages can remove demons from mages if they have enough time and resources. This has been known since the first freaking game.
Although I am curious as to your source as to the Avvar and Rivaini mages being able to do that since I don't remember ever encountering any evidence of that. In addition, I would think that the Chantry would search out and use this technique if they thought it existed due to provably being willing to remove demons without killing the host. (The reason I think this is because the Chantry technique requires lyrium, which I strongly doubt the Avvar can find. If they thought there was a way to get around that requirement, the Circle would want to know what it was.)
The Avvar techniques are explained in the Jaws of Hakkon DLC and were introduced years ago in Dragon Age (Table Top RPG). The Rivani Seers are mentioned in more detail in The World of Thedas vol 1. Solas also mentions them but I cannot recall exactly what he says. I believe it is during Cole's personal quest. The Amulet he request is of Rivaini origin, further illustrating their knowledge of Spirits.
"Normal" people in Thedas are terrified of mages and would lynch them given half a chance. Templars protect mages from them as much as they protect people from renegade mages.
Even Vivienne doesn't really believe this.
Cole: You're lying. You're... twist the words right, and it will show its true form. Blood or banishment, either will suffice.
Cole: You like the templars. You think they were right.
Cole: You don't need to be protected.
Vivienne: It can learn after all.
At the point where she requests Annulment, 'who is at fault' is irrelevant. You don't let a building burn down just because an arsonist started it. You try to put out the fire, then you punish the arsonist.
Meredith called for the Rite of Annulment before Anders' actions. She set the kindling herself.
Not only the banter that you posted have not to do with what lalus was saying, but also it was take out of the context of the conversation.Even Vivienne doesn't really believe this.
Cole: You're lying. You're... twist the words right, and it will show its true form. Blood or banishment, either will suffice.
Cole: You like the templars. You think they were right.
Cole: You don't need to be protected.
Vivienne: It can learn after all.
Probably, but that is merely supposition in the absence of lore.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's also no way to prove you're right either.
True but come on now. It's common sense. We know how they treat mages lower on the totem pole via Dorian. Anyone who thinks Tevinter is a mage heaven is deluding themselves. Maybe for those mages on the top it is...but that's also true for everywhere else.
Not only the banter that you posted have not to do with what lalus was saying, but also it was take out of the context of the conversation.
Yep pretty sure that conversation is about damn demon possession. Edit: wait that impression was from another banter not this one. XD the Vivienne almost got possessed bit I mean.
The whole banter for lack of cherrypicking
The human mage Inquisitor enjoyed certain freedoms in the Circle as well. S/he was still able to attend family gatherings and such, so that character presumably had a rather easygoing existence in the Ostwick Circle.
Yeah s/he was also from a privileged family. Basically, you don't get rights if you don't have the right family or ability to leverage power. Most of the mages that had any freedom were exceptions.
Meredith called for the Rite of Annulment before Anders' actions. She set the kindling herself.
Because she had reason. And, given what we found out about blood magic in the circle going right up to the First Enchanter himself, she was right.
Yeah s/he was also from a privileged family. Basically, you don't get rights if you don't have the right family or ability to leverage power. Most of the mages that had any freedom were exceptions.
Rhys didn't come from a privileged family, and he admits to being allowed to leave the White Spire before the recent Templar crackdown.
True but come on now. It's common sense. We know how they treat mages lower on the totem pole via Dorian. Anyone who thinks Tevinter is a mage heaven is deluding themselves. Maybe for those mages on the top it is...but that's also true for everywhere else.
It's safe to assume that life is not perfect in Tevinter for these mages, but it's certainly better than being imprisoned under the guard of armored drug addicts, being denied the right to have relationships or marry, being unable to raise own children...and basically having little to no rights at all.
I mean, there's a reason why we don't hear from any Laetan mages joining the White Chantry Circles.
I stated that her opinion will change if she was born and raised in Tevinter or if she is living in Tevinter and wishes to engage in politicking there. Look at her the way you would look at a politician or at Littlefinger.
If she was born and raised in Tevinter she'd be a different person with different opinions and loyalties. But the Vivienne who actually exists isn't pretending when she vocally supports the circles (with some slight changes). Those are her actual opinions. She figures the circles are the best way to keep mages, herself included, from ending up tied to stakes and I suspect she believes that Tevinter is destined for another bloody revolution with magisters going to the stake, or the guillotine.
It's safe to assume that life is not perfect in Tevinter for these mages, but it's certainly better than being imprisoned under the guard of armored drug addicts, being denied the right to have relationships or marry, being unable to raise own children...and basically having little to no rights at all.
I mean, there's a reason why we don't hear from any Laetan mages joining the White Chantry Circles.
THe mages of Tevinter are totally caught up in a version of the Grand Game that makes Orlais seem tame in comparison. Everyone must put on the facade of being the perfect mage, the perfect citizen or face social ostracism if not outright assassination. Power and prestige are everything.
There's a reason virtually everyone practices at least some blood magic.
And ask Dorian, an altus who stands to inherit a magistership, about having the right to have relationships, marry, and have children. It's all perfectly fine, as long as you have a relationship with the right person (or keep an unauthorized relationship secret), marry the right person who can boost your social standing, and have children with the right person, and advance Tevinter's eugenics program.
THe mages of Tevinter are totally caught up in a version of the Grand Game that makes Orlais seem tame in comparison. Everyone must put on the facade of being the perfect mage, the perfect citizen or face social ostracism if not outright assassination. Power and prestige are everything.
There's a reason virtually everyone practices at least some blood magic.
And ask Dorian, an altus who stands to inherit a magistership, about having the right to have relationships, marry, and have children. It's all perfectly fine, as long as you have a relationship with the right person (or keep an unauthorized relationship secret), marry the right person who can boost your social standing, and have children with the right person, and advance Tevinter's eugenics program.
I asked him, and he told me that their great families arrange marriages...just like everywhere else in Thedas.
I asked him, and he told me that their great families arrange marriages...just like everywhere else in Thedas.
Did he also say the rest of what Iakus said? Because I'm pretty sure that's less freedom than elsewhere in Thedas. In Ferelden, who you do is your own business as long as your spouse is on the list, and in Orlais there's more rules but at least the things Dorian wanted to do would be considered a quirk of character more than anything else as long as he also married a woman and had kids by her. (Or at least let her have kids who looked like him.) Yes, that's a suboptimal amount of freedom, but it's still a bit unfair to compare it to Tevinter's lack of freedom. (Especially in Ferelden's case.)
It's safe to assume that life is not perfect in Tevinter for these mages, but it's certainly better than being imprisoned under the guard of armored drug addicts, being denied the right to have relationships or marry, being unable to raise own children...and basically having little to no rights at all.
I mean, there's a reason why we don't hear from any Laetan mages joining the White Chantry Circles.
Probably because they'll be killed on sight or suspected of being bloodmages. Tevinter mages are highly distrusted everywhere else. Even Dorian is distrusted by the masses of the Inqusition.
And that's assuming they can even get out of Tevinter.
As for having little to no rights how do you think mage slaves have it? Pretty sure a blood battery would rather be in a well adjusted circle.
To find out how Tevinter treats lower class mages, one need look no further than a conversation in Redcliffe.
Did he also say the rest of what Iakus said? Because I'm pretty sure that's less freedom than elsewhere in Thedas. In Ferelden, who you do is your own business as long as your spouse is on the list, and in Orlais there's more rules but at least the things Dorian wanted to do would be considered a quirk of character more than anything else as long as he also married a woman and had kids by her. (Or at least let her have kids who looked like him.) Yes, that's a suboptimal amount of freedom, but it's still a bit unfair to compare it to Tevinter's lack of freedom. (Especially in Ferelden's case.)
Nobles are expected to marry and have children. There is no difference between Tevinter, Orlais and Ferelden. Now we don't know if your average mage quaestor in some backwater town in Tevinter is allowed to marry for love, but Dorian explicitely says "great families".
And if some tevinter mage wants to undergo Harrowing and join a circle, I doubt the chantry would forbid it. Yes, I know that mages who flee to Tevinter end up as slaves, what I meant is that laetans have a better life than your average circle mage.
what I meant is that laetans have a better life than your average circle mage.
and I don't think we can accurately say that, sans Kirkwall there hasn't been much to say against the average life in a Circle, three hot meals, a top notch education, protection (unless there's an annulment which are exceedingly rare) by the templars, no conscription as they are rarely deployed in war (except by Wardens).
Many mages who have come from it have praise for it, Vivienne, Wynne, Minaeve, many random mages we meet in Inquisition, and even Bethany comes to get used to life there.
It's safe to assume that life is not perfect in Tevinter for these mages, but it's certainly better than being imprisoned under the guard of armored drug addicts, being denied the right to have relationships or marry, being unable to raise own children...and basically having little to no rights at all.
I mean, there's a reason why we don't hear from any Laetan mages joining the White Chantry Circles.
Why? Living in some of the most imposing buildings in Thedas (the White Spire was housed in Emperor Drakon's former palace), being provided with food, clothes, an education, having guards there to keep bandits, darkspawn, etc away from you; even the sense of community in the Circle might be better than the backstabbing of Tevinter society. Rhys was nearly killed by three mageling brats while he was there.
The Circles are very good places to be.
Adralla was a Tevinter mage who willingly joined the Southern Circles.
In fact, you'd think the Litany of Adralla would be something every child outside of Tevinter should be able to recite on demand.
Lord Seeker Lambert recites it in Asunder and boom Cole is visible. There is no indication he even used a special ability which requires lyrium or anything. Just read it from a paper.
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