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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 
Nobles are expected to marry and have children. There is no difference between Tevinter, Orlais and Ferelden. Now we don't know if your average mage quaestor in some backwater town in Tevinter is allowed to marry for love, but Dorian explicitely says "great families".

And if some tevinter mage wants to undergo Harrowing and join a circle, I doubt the chantry would forbid it. Yes, I know that mages who flee to Tevinter end up as slaves, what I meant is that laetans have a better life than your average circle mage.

I don't think that answered my objection. In fact I think my objection answered that.

 

As for the first sentence of the second paragraph... maybe? I think Adralla got away with it. Although it's worth noting that she was working on a way to block blood magic at the time; if the Templars and First Enchanters looked over it and went "Oh, wow, this might actually work" that's a huge feather in her cap.

 

With regards to the first half of the second sentence of the first paragraph: and you don't think that's a point in the White Chantry's favor if it turns out they accept refugees and treat them little differently than they do natives? Or at least against Tevinter, since they're enslaving refugees?

 

Last bit: debatable, but JB's already answered why. Let me just add, though, that the Circle mages are all guaranteed that their standards of living will be those standard for their Circle. According to the wiki, a mage in Tevinter who isn't a magister has the life his skills can buy him. It seems to me that that means a mage who fails at maging in Tevinter will probably be enslaved, or killed, or Tranquil'd, or allowed to starve. A mage who fails at maging in the White Chantry's lands will be Tranquil'd and then still offered room and board. If Tevinter allows the very best of the mages to rise well above what the White Chantry (usually) allows, it sounds like it also allows the worst to fall well below it.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Why? Living in some of the most imposing buildings in Thedas (the White Spire was housed in Emperor Drakon's former palace), being provided with food, clothes, an education, having guards there to keep bandits, darkspawn, etc away from you; even the sense of community in the Circle might be better than the backstabbing of Tevinter society. Rhys was nearly killed by three mageling brats while he was there.

The Circles are very good places to be.

Adralla was a Tevinter mage who willingly joined the Southern Circles.

Doesn't Dorian justify slavery using this argument?

[dragonflight288]

Doesn't Dorian justify slavery using this argument?

 

He actually talks about slums, alienages and the overall discrimination that the poor, especially elves, face in the south and how the very culture itself keeps these people from rising and barely able to make a living, and then says that if a poor person in Tevinter existed and couldn't make a life, they could sell themselves into slavery and have guaranteed food, shelter, and if they are skilled, a pseudo-livelihood. 

 

If you talk to Krem, however, and his/her father selling himself into slavery, it tells a kind of different tale. Krem's father was a weaver and a tailor. A local magister decided to put on a charity case of making clothes for the poorer families and made shirts and such on slave labor, and because of that was able to sell the clothes for next to nothing and Krem's father couldn't compete with that and ended up being forced into selling himself into slavery to provide for his family. 

 

Dorian talks about how that while the option exists, and that some magisters most certainly treat their slaves poorly and as blood batteries, he leaves out the fact that sometimes the skilled labor are forced to sell themselves into slavery because they can't compete with the market slave labor brings. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Doesn't Dorian justify slavery using this argument?

That's it can be a more comfortable life than the alternative? Yes he does. Your point is?

[MisterJB]

Doesn't Dorian justify slavery using this argument?

 

Yes, and?

 

Does that mean all future uses of that argument are automatically wrong even if the situation in question is entirely different?

 

What if I said "These people can barely remember their own names. If we allowed them outside without supervision, they'd get lost or wander into the middle of a road. Yes, we are keeping them locked in here but it's for their own good. We try to make their lives confortable."

 

or

"Yes, we are keeping these people locked in but they have an extremely virulent disease. If we allowed them contact with others, we'd have an outbreak in no time. We try to make them as confortable as we can."

 

Same argument in both instances? Are they wrong?

 

There are enough differences between mages and slaves that the argument is defensible in one but not in the other.
 

[Kakistos_]

Because she had reason.  And, given what we found out about blood magic in the circle going right up to the First Enchanter himself, she was right.

Orsino only resorted to Blood Magic when he was backed into a corner, like most of the Mages. Do you really blame him for using  any tools at his disposal to try and keep himself alive? Were you in his position would you just sit down and die like a good little Mage?

[Drasanil]

Orsino only resorted to Blood Magic when he was backed into a corner, like most of the Mages. Do you really blame him for using  any tools at his disposal to try and keep himself alive? Were you in his position would you just sit down and die like a good little Mage?

 

Yeah because learning how to turn yourself into a massive harvester is really something mages only pick up in the spur of the moment. Orsino might not have opnely used blood magic before that point, but he was more than happy to go over Quentin's research and learn everything about it for years prior while covering for him. That was most certainly not a choice of desperation.

[TK514]

Orsino only resorted to Blood Magic when he was backed into a corner, like most of the Mages. Do you really blame him for using  any tools at his disposal to try and keep himself alive? Were you in his position would you just sit down and die like a good little Mage?

I wouldn't have supported a blood mage serial killer for years, then slaughtered my fellow mages so I could turn myself into an abomination.

 

So, yes, I do blame him and no, I don't think his corruption was a spur of the moment thing.

[Kakistos_]

Yeah because learning how to turn yourself into a massive harvester is really something mages only pick up in the spur of the moment. Orsino might not have opnely used blood magic before that point, but he was more than happy to go over Quentin's research and learn everything about it for years prior while covering for him. That was most certainly not a choice of desperation.

Yes, Orsino knew about Quentin's research but decried it as too dangerous. Orsino is at fault for being able to read now?

 

I wouldn't have supported a blood mage serial killer for years, then slaughtered my fellow mages so I could turn myself into an abomination.

 

So, yes, I do blame him and no, I don't think his corruption was a spur of the moment thing.

We do not know if Orsino was actually hiding Blood Mages or if he knew Quentin was a serial killer. He did not kill his fellow Mages, they were killed by Templars. It was quite obvious that Orsino was desperate, as Varric also says, as he could have used that technique elsewhere. He could have attacked and used the bodies of the fallen as soon as Meredith called for the Rite of Annulment or in the Gallows court yard when the Mages were being pushed back.

 

That he used it after Meredith's forces had gathered and many Mages had already died is not an insignificant detail. But this is besides the point. I do not believe that Meredith was in any way "right" when she called for the Annulment of Mages that had absolutely nothing to do with the Chantry's destruction, even if they were Blood Mages. Many of the Blood Mages we saw went down that road because Meredith's tyranny and Elthina's inaction forced them there. You cannot just expect them to sit there and take abuses like confinement, Tranquility and rape because the religion that calls them evil says they have to.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes, Orsino knew about Quentin's research but decried it as too dangerous. Orsino is at fault for being able to read now?

 

We do not know if Orsino was actually hiding Blood Mages or if he knew Quentin was a serial killer.

His research was necromancy. How do you imagine Orsino thought he was researching that? And we know he was hiding Quentin, at least.

[Master Warder Z_]

His research was necromancy. How do you imagine Orsino thought he was researching that? And we know he was hiding Quentin, at least.

Plus he was an elf and therefore arrogant and slightly demented

[dragonflight288]

deleted my own comment because it got too personal, and was inappropriate. 

[TK514]

Yes, Orsino knew about Quentin's research but decried it as too dangerous. Orsino is at fault for being able to read now?

We do not know if Orsino was actually hiding Blood Mages or if he knew Quentin was a serial killer. He did not kill his fellow Mages, they were killed by Templars. It was quite obvious that Orsino was desperate, as Varric also says, as he could have used that technique elsewhere. He could have attacked and used the bodies of the fallen as soon as Meredith called for the Rite of Annulment or in the Gallows court yard when the Mages were being pushed back.

He's at fault for supplying information he knew was blood magic to a man he knew was an apostate, and not stopping said apostate when he knew what was going on.

He admits to murdering his fellow mages, and he admits to knowing what Quentin was doing.

[thesuperdarkone2]

He's at fault for supplying information he know was blood magic to a man he knew was an apostate, and not stopping said apostate when he knew what was going on.

Watch that scene again. He admits to murdering his fellow mages.

That only happens if you help the Templars. If you help mages, the bodies were killed by Templars. Also remember that you weren't supposed to kill Orsino if you sided with the mages originally.

[TK514]

That only happens if you help the Templars. If you help mages, the bodies were killed by Templars. Also remember that you weren't supposed to kill Orsino if you sided with the mages originally.

And?  He murders his fellow mages and admits to knowing what Quentin was doing and helping him.  The dialog is unambiguous and in game.

[Boost32]

It was a good ridance annuling the Kirkwall Circle, its even possible to spare the few reedemable mages, its a win-win in the end.

[The Baconer]

It was a good ridance annuling the Kirkwall Circle, its even possible to spare the few reedemable mages, its a win-win in the end.

 

Except the institutional corruption still remains (again, nothing solved), as is demonstrated when Hawke is summarily ousted and forced into hiding... as Red Lyrium fills the void left behind by blood magic.

 

A swerve nobody could have predicted, to be sure.

[Barquiel]

With regards to the first half of the second sentence of the first paragraph: and you don't think that's a point in the White Chantry's favor if it turns out they accept refugees and treat them little differently than they do natives? Or at least against Tevinter, since they're enslaving refugees?
 
Last bit: debatable, but JB's already answered why. Let me just add, though, that the Circle mages are all guaranteed that their standards of living will be those standard for their Circle. According to the wiki, a mage in Tevinter who isn't a magister has the life his skills can buy him. It seems to me that that means a mage who fails at maging in Tevinter will probably be enslaved, or killed, or Tranquil'd, or allowed to starve. A mage who fails at maging in the White Chantry's lands will be Tranquil'd and then still offered room and board. If Tevinter allows the very best of the mages to rise well above what the White Chantry (usually) allows, it sounds like it also allows the worst to fall well below it.

 
Sure, Tevinter's treatment of refugees is pretty terrible. But that wasn't my point. My point was simply that the average mage who is born in Tevinter has a better life than the average mage in the south. Yes, there are exceptions (slaves, priviliged mages like Vivienne). And I mean sure, Dorian says the average laetan just has some boring job "counting numbers and shuffling papers", but they're not starving or anything (and I don't think you have to be a very talented mage to get such a job). And "counting numbers and shuffling papers" definitely sounds much better than being locked up in some tower, where you're being watched 24/7 by heavily armed lyrium addicts and constantly told how you are a dangerous, borderline sub-human monster all the time.

I simply believe that the circles in the south should be like the Tevinter Circles where they are basically prestige universities instead of prisons. And most importantly, mages should have the right to have a life outside the circles.

[Sports72Xtrm]

 
Sure, Tevinter's treatment of refugees is pretty terrible. But that wasn't my point. My point was simply that the average mage who is born in Tevinter has a better life than the average mage in the south. Yes, there are exceptions (slaves, priviliged mages like Vivienne). And I mean sure, Dorian says the average laetan just has some boring job "counting numbers and shuffling papers", but they're not starving or anything (and I don't think you have to be a very talented mage to get such a job). And "counting numbers and shuffling papers" definitely sounds much better than being locked up in some tower, where you're being watched 24/7 by heavily armed lyrium addicts and constantly told how you are a dangerous, borderline sub-human monster all the time.

I simply believe that the circles in the south should be like the Tevinter Circles where they are basically prestige universities instead of prisons. And most importantly, mages should have the right to have a life outside the circles.

Agree with this. I'd also like to add that if the Circles are so great, why is it that people like Finn choose not to return to them? And for all the talk about having to feign perfect citizenship in Tevinter, it's really the same in the Circles except people feign content for the Circles. Orsino even says, they keep quiet, pretend to be content to being persecuted and incarcerated, never object to the Templars for fear of being labeled a malcontent. Even the Rite of Tranquility is abused to silence dissidents. If people want to defend jowan from being made tranquil they will be overrule by the templars and be branded a troublemaker. Not to mention that whole contradictory magic is a gift and a curse paradoxical b.s.? The injustice is in the Circle too, maybe much more than it is in Tevinter. But at least in Tevinter you can work your magic and not be criminalized for it. I'd rather feign nationalism than self-loathing.

[Boost32]

Except the institutional corruption still remains (again, nothing solved), as is demonstrated when Hawke is summarily ousted and forced into hiding... as Red Lyrium fills the void left behind by blood magic.
 
A swerve nobody could have predicted, to be sure.

And now they are gone too, good ridance.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

In the Descent DLC, we learned that Lyrium is the blood of the Titans, who are a race of large sentient creatures that is the Stone and shapes the Stone.

 

We also learned that being exposed to pure Lyrium can give Dwarves some form of magic ability / spellcasting capability, although this magic is different from conventional Fade magic.

 

This means that Templars are utilizing this form Dwarven magic / Lyrium magic, albeit a very weak version of it because Templars take shots of refined Lyrium and it is that Lyrium (in its refined form as opposed to a pure Lyrium) that give them their abilities.

 

If we put two and two together, does this mean Templars are utilizing a form of Blood Magic ? Does this mean that Templars are Blood Mages ? Does this make Templars worse that actual Blood Mages, since Blood Mages use the blood of normal creatures but Templars use the blood of ancient mythical creatures that shape Thedas ?

 

Now for those who say:- "Well, mages use Lyrium too." Yes. However, mages do not cast spells from Lyrium. By this I mean mages do not use Lyrium as the source of their power. Mages use the Fade or conventional blood or the Taint. The Lyrium is simply to replenish their mana or to boost their damage.

 

On the other hand Templars rely on Lyrium for their abilities. Without Lyrium, they cannot cast their "spells". Which means that Templars draw their power from Lyrium, similar to how a conventional Blood Mage draws upon conventional blood to cast their spells.

[Sports72Xtrm]

In the Descent DLC, we learned that Lyrium is the blood of the Titans, who are a race of large sentient creatures that is the Stone and shapes the Stone.

 

We also learned that being exposed to pure Lyrium can give Dwarves some form of magic ability / spellcasting capability, although this magic is different from conventional Fade magic.

 

This means that Templars are utilizing this form Dwarven magic / Lyrium magic, albeit a very weak version of it because Templars take shots of refined Lyrium and it is that Lyrium (in its refined form as opposed to a pure Lyrium) that give them their abilities.

 

If we put two and two together, does this mean Templars are utilizing a form of Blood Magic ? Does this mean that Templars are Blood Mages ? Does this make Templars worse that actual Blood Mages, since Blood Mages use the blood of normal creatures but Templars use the blood of ancient mythical creatures that shape Thedas ?

 

Now for those who say:- "Well, mages use Lyrium too." Yes. However, mages do not cast spells from Lyrium. By this I mean mages do not use Lyrium as the source of their power. Mages use the Fade or conventional blood or the Taint. The Lyrium is simply to replenish their mana or to boost their damage.

 

On the other hand Templars rely on Lyrium for their abilities. Without Lyrium, they cannot cast their "spells". Which means that Templars draw their power from Lyrium, similar to how a conventional Blood Mage draws upon conventional blood to cast their spells.

It's not really blood magic. For one, blood magic closes you off from the Fade, lyrium makes the connection stronger. Magic itself relates to the Fade and bringing it into the real world to reshape reality. Only mages can do that. Templars shuts the Veil down by reinforcing it so while the act of magic is opening the curtain (i.e., the Veil) to make reality more malleable, templars keep the curtain close. There's power it's true, but for templars they don't utilize it by casting spells. A more apt comparison is that a templar is something akin to a titan reaver. Someone that drinks some other powerful creatures blood to transform themselves to have attributes like that creature. At least that is from my understanding.

[Boost32]

Raw Lyrium doesn't give dwarves magical powers, it kills them. Some way the Lyrium of the Guardian made Vala reconect with the Titans, but if a dwarf tries to do the same with normal raw Lyrium he/she will die.

No it doesn't mean they are blood mages, they are the same as the Reavers, drink blood and gain some kind of magical power.

Blood mages take can kill their subject to empower their magical and the more horrible the death is, more powerful the blood magic will be.
Vala never told us that the Titans don't want their blood mined and no one, besides the ones who were there, knows Lyrium is actually blood.

[Master Warder Z_]

Titans are masochistic

[MisterJB]

Orsino only resorted to Blood Magic when he was backed into a corner, like most of the Mages. Do you really blame him for using any tools at his disposal to try and keep himself alive? Were you in his position would you just sit down and die like a good little Mage?

So, in the time it took for the Order to reach the Gallows, Circle mages, who had never used blood magic before, managed to summon and control demons and fuse several bodies into a fully functional organic WMD? Just like that?

No, I find it far more likely Orsino and a percentage of Circle mages had been practicing it for some time.
There's Huon, Grace, Alain. No reason to assume we caught them all.