1551 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Other than the freedom of association which is expressed through fraternaties?

Or the right to vote which is expressed when the Senior Enchanters choose a First Enchanter?

Or maybe the right to not be made a Tranquil after a sucessfull Harrowing which we have been told is a law?

Or perhaps the right to security which we can see exists when even in Kirkwall people like Karras or Alrik have to conceal their crimes from the Knight Commander. And that is in Kirkwall. Seems to me there is accountability.

http://dragonage.wik..._Templar_Letter

 

Yes, some Templars can abuse mages and conceal their crimes...just like normal guardsman can making the mage "plight" not that unique.

 

Or various mages being allowed to wander the countryside unattended.

Or Meredith requesting permission to search the mages' quarters.

And so on and so forth.

 

We see the Mages' rights being upheld again and again.

[Iakus]

 
They probably are. The problem is that the southern mages are not even that, and I think a system that treats mages as subhuman without clear and present evidence that it is necessary needs to go.

Again, I like the circle system in Tevinter...but that doesn't mean life is perfect there.

The system doesn't treat them as subhuman, the people do.  Mages have a right to exist. Otherwise there wouldn't be Circles to begin with.  And as pointed out, no one would bother to educate mages, but rather let common folk lynch them.  And there'd be no outrage at all when Templars do abuse mages.

 

If you want to see people who have 'no right to exist"  look at casteless dwarves.  or saarebass, or Tevinter slaves.

 

When Templars abuse mages, they have to twist the words of the Chantry's teachings to justify themselves (Alrik was blatantly violating Chantry law).  When one of these others is abused, that is considered right and proper by their laws.

[MisterJB]

 

Everyone should visit the former personal palaces that have been opened to the public in France. They defy description.

 

Wonder how Emperor Drakon's compares to them.

[Shienis]

That doesn't change the fact that mages have basically no rights...not even the right to exist, if some mage-hating templar decides you're a blood mage or a danger or whatever reason someone can produce or fabricate. So according to Vivienne mages should  "protest" abuses by the templars. Great...the problem is that the templars aren't held accountable for their actions. We saw that again and again.

Well, if that is the problem, shouldn't that be fixed, instead of implementing temporary workarounds like blowing up chantries and dissolving circles? But that's too much work, compared to rebellions...

[daveliam]

Seriously, the White Spire was housed in Emperor Drakon's former palace.

They were literally living in a palace.

 

They were being educated when most people in Orlais can't read.

 

There's guards and high walls to protect them when peasants in Amaranthine were being killed in droves by Darkspawn.

 

They have nobility paying for the things they produce when there are poor who are starving.

 

There are bad things about living in the Circle. No family life, little privacy, a do or die test and there is just no justice that there are thugs stabbing people with common weapons in the streets while mages who have never harmed anyone are locked up.

 

But they are NOT being treated as subhumans. They have better living conditions that most of Thedas.

 

Even the Templar abuses are probably no more frequent than noble, chevalier or just guardsman abuse.

 

Answer fast, where would you rather live?


 

 

Yeah, it's a gilded cage.  Don't get me wrong, a gilded cage is still a cage.  But it's certainly not the same as living in squallor.  It's subjective whether or not it's a good living condition.  Personally, I think I would be a Wynne-type who would thrive under those conditions.  But I can understand why some it's not for some people. 

[Iakus]

 

 

Everyone should visit the former personal palaces that have been opened to the public in France. They defy description.

 

Wonder how Emperor Drakon's compares to them.

 

Emperor Drakon actually thought well of mages, and helped establish teh Circles so they could practice magic in safety

 

And given he tried to abolish the Game, as well as all but a few noble titles, and spend virtually his entire adult life saving Thedas from the Second Blight, he strikes me as an okay guy.

[Barquiel]

Other than the freedom of association which is expressed through fraternaties?
Or the right to vote which is expressed when the Senior Enchanters choose a First Enchanter?
Or maybe the right to not be made a Tranquil after a sucessfull Harrowing which we have been told is a law?
Or perhaps the right to security which we can see exists when even in Kirkwall people like Karras or Alrik have to conceal their crimes from the Knight Commander. And that is in Kirkwall. Seems to me there is accountability.
http://dragonage.wik..._Templar_Letter
 
Yes, some Templars can abuse mages and conceal their crimes...just like normal guardsman can making the mage "plight" not that unique.

 
The first two points are pretty useless because the fraternaties and first enchanters have little to no power. The Knight-Commander can always overrule (and kill any mage), no matter what the first enchanter says. We see that in Ferelden, Kirkwall and the White Spire. For example, Greagoir only permitted seven mages to participate at Ostagar (to stop the Fifth Blight) when Irving openly disagreed with the decision. And there were only seven mages in Ostagar. Edmonde's opinion has been constantly ignored as well, and I doubt many first enchanters supported Lamberts "reforms" after Kirkwall.

And the Chantry has persistantly showed no real interest in holding the Templars accountable even for basic human rights of the circle mages. All the so-called regulations in the world are no good if no one bothers to follow them. A simple walk around the Gallows courtyard would've given Meredith or the seekers all the evidence needed to hold someone like Alrik accountable.
 

Well, if that is the problem, shouldn't that be fixed, instead of implementing temporary workarounds like blowing up chantries and dissolving circles? But that's too much work, compared to rebellions...

Well, to me the entire Circle system in the south is a totalitarian nightmare and rotten to the core. If the circles could be sufficiently repurposed as a school and not a prison, it could work.

[TK514]

Yes, just like nobility can ignore the law and murder(or worse) any commoner they like.  They don't even have to twist the law or hide their actions to do it, unlike the Templars.

 

Frankly, seven mages to assist in dealing with what everyone believed at the time was a large darkspawn raid was more than generous.  Given that no one knew it was a Blight until after Ostagar except Duncan, who refused to offer any proof, Greagoir can hardly be faulted for not turning out the Tower to deal with it.  You conveniently neglect to mention that, once it is clear that it IS a Blight, he either offers full Templar assistance or defers to Irving, depending on how Broken Circle plays out.

[TobiTobsen]

Meredith, the poster child for everything that people see as wrong with the Templar order and Knight Commander of one of the, if not THE, most opressiv circles in Thedas, cannot search the mage quarters simply because Orsino says so.

Yet somehow this whole balancing system of Knight Commander and First Enchanter is a farce?

[MisterJB]

 
The first two points are pretty useless because the fraternaties and first enchanters have little to no power. The Knight-Commander can always overrule (and kill any mage), no matter what the first enchanter says.

In Kirkwall, where there are more Templars than anywhere else outside of Orlais and the Viscount is afraid of the Knight Commander and the Grand Cleric is not interested in exerting her authority and the Veil is especially thin which justified a great deal of Meredith's actions, there was still a shouting match on the streets over something as banal as searching their quarters.

 

It's more accurate to say that, as with everything in life, there is competition between Templars and mages within the Circles. Sometimes the KC is the most powerful one while, other times, it's the FE.

For instance, I can't imagine a Templar killing a mortalitasi for no reason and getting away with it.

 

 

 
For example, Greagoir only permitted seven mages to participate at Ostagar (to stop the Fifth Blight) when Irving openly disagreed with the decision. And there were only seven mages in Ostagar.

That's called a compromise. Gregoir wanted none, Irving wanted a lot and they met in the middle.

That's the CIrcle working.

Besides, the First Enchanter has the final say in what happens within the Circle but the law still has to be upheld. If the Knight Commander can't even prevent him from sending how many mages he pleases to the outside world, that defeats the purpose of the Templars being there.
 

Edmonde's opinion has been constantly ignored as well, and I doubt many first enchanters supported Lamberts "reforms" after Kirkwall.

Edmonde is the same First Enchanter who, twenty years prior, had lead a group of mages against the current Knight Commander for his betrayal of the Chantry.

And the Chantry has persistantly showed no real interest in holding the Templars accountable even for basic human rights of the circle mages. All the so-called regulations in the world are no good if no one bothers to follow them. A simple walk around the Gallows courtyard would've given Meredith or the seekers all the evidence needed to hold someone like Alrik accountable.

Where's the evidence? We know Alrik and Karras were covering their tracks.

 

And BTW, that doesn't make the mage "plight" all that unique. People with power abusing it happens all over the world. Tevinter for instance.
 

Well, to me the entire Circle system in the south is a totalitarian nightmare and rotten to the core. If the circles could be sufficiently repurposed as a school and not a prison, it could work.

Because it works so well in Tevinter.

 

[Barquiel]

In Kirkwall, where there are more Templars than anywhere else outside of Orlais and the Viscount is afraid of the Knight Commander and the Grand Cleric is not interested in exerting her authority and the Veil is especially thin which justified a great deal of Meredith's actions, there was still a shouting match on the streets over something as banal as searching their quarters.
 
It's more accurate to say that, as with everything in life, there is competition between Templars and mages within the Circles. Sometimes the KC is the most powerful one while, other times, it's the FE.
For instance, I can't imagine a Templar killing a mortalitasi for no reason and getting away with it.
 
That's called a compromise. Gregoir wanted none, Irving wanted a lot and they met in the middle.
That's the CIrcle working.
Besides, the First Enchanter has the final say in what happens within the Circle but the law still has to be upheld. If the Knight Commander can't even prevent him from sending how many mages he pleases to the outside world, that defeats the purpose of the Templars being there.
 
Edmonde is the same First Enchanter who, twenty years prior, had lead a group of mages against the current Knight Commander for his betrayal of the Chantry.
 
Where's the evidence? We know Alrik and Karras were covering their tracks.
 
And BTW, that doesn't make the mage "plight" all that unique. People with power abusing it happens all over the world. Tevinter for instance.
 
Because it works so well in Tevinter.

Gregoir was at least somewhat reasonable (apart from the fact that he abuses pregnant mages...). And iirc, he only agreed to send seven mages because he was ordered to, not because Irving convinced him. And then we have Lambert, who could restrict freedoms at will...and all these first enchanters including Edmonde were completely powerless. There is also no shouting match between Lambert and Edmonde on the streets, because no mage is allowed to leave the circle. How is that balanced?

Alrik's illegal tranquilizations could not have escaped the notice of the Knight Commander, as all tranquilizations require the approval of both the FE and the KC (theoretically). So, for every illegal tranquilization, there is an absent record with Meredith's and Orsino's signature...and nobody noticed this?

Considering that Tevinter isn't overrun by abominations...yes, it works.

[Shienis]

  If the circles could be sufficiently repurposed as a school and not a prison, it could work.

If it's that kind of school where teachers and guardians have more authority than students, I agree. But I would not be happy to see a place where teachers can't even raise their voice unless they want to be accused of bullying and abuse. (the other extreme of situation where one group is meant to watch over another)

[Shadow Quickpaw]

Wait... Meredith was trying to get permission from Orsino? It seemed more like she was saying: "Get out of my way."

 

Not to mention that the previous shouting match at the begining of act III wasn't about Circle rights, it was about Templars stopping a new Viscount from being elected. Oh yeah, that happened. Templars interfering with city leadership (with the Divine's blessing, I might add).

[Boost32]

Gregoir was at least somewhat reasonable (apart from the fact that he abuses pregnant mages...).

Non-canon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Gregoir was at least somewhat reasonable (apart from the fact that he abuses pregnant mages...). And iirc, he only agreed to send seven mages because he was ordered to, not because Irving convinced him. And then we have Lambert, who could restrict freedoms at will...and all these first enchanters including Edmonde were completely powerless. There is also no shouting match between Lambert and Edmonde on the streets, because no mage is allowed to leave the circle. How is that balanced?

Considering that Tevinter isn't overrun by abominations...yes, it works.

Lambert wasn't a Templar, he was a Seeker. The reason he could restrict the mages as he chose and nobody could say him nay was because he was in charge of preventing the Templars from unreasonably doing so to the mages, and the people who were supposed to be able to prevent him from doing so were unarmed priests. I agree that his actions showed the system failing, but don't confuse his actions for the way things were supposed to be. Lambert's ability to restrict the mages wasn't a feature, it was a bug.

 

Tevinter exists. That's not the same as it working well. This has been pointed out previously.

[TobiTobsen]

Lambert wasn't a Templar, he was a Seeker. The reason he could restrict the mages as he chose was because he was in charge of preventing the Templars from unreasonably doing so to the mages. He was the one to whom Orsino was supposed to be able to complain. I agree that his actions showed the system failing, but don't confuse his actions for the way things were supposed to be. Lambert's ability to restrict the mages wasn't a feature, it was a bug.

 

It exists. That's not the same as it working well. This has been pointed out previously.

 

Lambert restricting the mages could also have to do something with a serial killer running rampant in the White Spire and a mage from that circle trying to assassinate the Divine...

[Bowie Hawkins]

Meredith called for the Rite of Annulment before Anders' actions. She set the kindling herself.

 

No, Meredith called for the Rite as a direct response to Anders committing mass murder with the bombs he built.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, Meredith called for the Rite as a direct response to Anders committing mass murder with the bombs he built.

She'd called for it before, but been refused. That's why Anders committed the mass murder: he knew that if he got every single person in immediate reach who could say Meredith nay, she'd use her temporary authority to push the Annulment through.

 

Lambert restricting the mages could also have to do something with a serial killer running rampant in the White Spire and a mage from that circle trying to assassinate the Divine...

I mean, fair point, but my understanding is that he also showed a complete lack of trust for mages in general during his Motive Rant about his former friend who turned to Blood Magic.

[MisterJB]

And then we have Lambert, who could restrict freedoms at will...and all these first enchanters including Edmonde were completely powerless. There is also no shouting match between Lambert and Edmonde on the streets, because no mage is allowed to leave the circle. How is that balanced?

Lambert is not a Knight Commander in charge of a specific Circle in which he must be equal with the First Enchanter. He is the Lord Seeker, he is effectivelly in charge of the entire system. Above him, only the Divine and since she agreed with him when he demanded that only the FEs be allowed to participate in the conclave and that Pharamond be made Tranquil again, chances are his decisions to restrict privileges in light of the recent crysis most likely had her seal of approval.

 

If you oppose this, you are effectively opposing the very principle of mages being ruled by normal people in which case, I must ask why is this not ok but Tevinter is?

Alrik's illegal tranquilizations could not have escaped the notice of the Knight Commander, as all tranquilizations require the approval of both the FE and the KC (theoretically). So, for every illegal tranquilization, there is an absent record with Meredith's and Orsino's signature...and nobody noticed this?

We don't know what is going on behind the scenes.
We do know Alrik feared official sanctions and Orsino never mentions any illegal tranquilizations.

 

For instance, what if it what he was, mostly doing, was ioverblowing things mages did out of proportions?
A mageling wanting to see her family suddenly becomes a vicious bloodmage who summoned demons when confronted with Templars.

 

I'm not saying they didn't drop the ball but it doesn't necessarely means his crimes were as obvious as it seem to us.

 

Considering that Tevinter isn't overrun by abominations...yes, it works.

 

If "Not overrun by Abominations" is the best you can say about it...

Do you have a graph that dissects how Tevinter's Circles work differently from the Chantry's and proves how this leads to a smaller number of Abominations during the same time period?

 

Because "Not overrun by Abominations" doesn't mean there aren't more Abominations than in the South. All it means is that they haven't destroyed Tevinter yet.

We know for a fact there are more blood mages.

And of course, there's the fact non-mages are batteries, at best, in Tevinter which is a direct consequence of mages being free.

[The Baconer]

Meredith, the poster child for everything that people see as wrong with the Templar order and Knight Commander of one of the, if not THE, most opressiv circles in Thedas, cannot search the mage quarters simply because Orsino says so.

Yet somehow this whole balancing system of Knight Commander and First Enchanter is a farce?

 

Say what you want about checks and balances here, but I think this is actually a good example of Meredith's ineffectiveness. She's already bent every rule, and had good justification for a search. If you're going to disregard established law and procedure for "doing whatever it takes", don't stop halfway.

 

The only one stopping Meredith from searching the Circle was Meredith.

[The Baconer]

I'm not saying they didn't drop the ball but it doesn't necessarely means his crimes were as obvious as it seem to us.

 

It seems Meredith had removed all the brakes from the Tranquil process. Wielding the brand over petty infractions, things that Orsino would never approve of, implies that the First Enchanter's input wasn't even required, and one needed little justification to satisfy the Rite's performance.

 

Thus, Meredith created an environment in which Alrik and others like him could thrive, in the absence of any organized system that would inhibit their actions or lead to their quick discovery.

[Barquiel]

If you oppose this, you are effectively opposing the very principle of mages being ruled by normal people in which case, I must ask why is this not ok but Tevinter is?

what I am opposing is the Chantry rule over mages through their soldiers.

There needs to be compulsory education for young mages (these mages should be allowed to visit their families or have their families come visit them). I guess something like the harrowing is also needed for the end of a mages apprenticeship, but even that needs to be revised and if possible a better way found (at least mages should be better prepared for it). I would also still keep tranquility around for mages who want to voluntarily go through it. But when a mage passes his/her harrowing its basically like a graduation, and after that they should be allowed to come and go; no restrictions.

[Master Warder Z_]

what I am opposing is the Chantry rule over mages through their soldiers.

 

And this is different from any government, society or civilization in Thedas that's gotten past the stone age how?

 

You create laws that will be palpable to the majority, you create people to enforce those laws, you punish people who violate them, that's governance.

[Barquiel]

I think the Chantry was a poor choice for management of mages from the start. Their doctrine has a strong slant against magic and they tend to exacerbate people's fear and rejection of mages, rather than try to integrate mages into society or foster acceptance.

[Iakus]

  

I mean, fair point, but my understanding is that he also showed a complete lack of trust for mages in general during his Motive Rant about his former friend who turned to Blood Magic.

Funny how his experiences in Tevinter shaped his distrust in mages in general...