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[dragonflight288]

Then that means that pretty much your arguments could easily be ignored and Mage freedom works without problems. What would you do if Mage freedom wound up being better than circles?

 

I usually support mages as I feel the templars and seekers through systematic abuse of their powers and privileges have lost all trust in their ability to monitor magic and treat mages fairly and with dignity. 

 

But I also recognize the threat untrained magic can be to not only the mage but also everyone around them.

 

I'm all for reformation, or at least forming a system where mages can be treated with dignity and also get the help and training they need. The Dalish have a Keeper and First, as well as other mages depending on the clan (it kind of sucks that the only good things you hear about the Dalish in Inquisition have to be heard while playing as a Dalish yourself,) the Avaar form alliances with spirits and learn magic directly from them, and these spirits/gods of theirs in turn protect them from the demons, and sometimes even in physical battles as well, the Rivaini have the Seers and a pseudo-circle system. 

 

Some work better than others and in different aspects. 

 

But no matter the method, all mages do need training in order to control their powers so they don't hurt themselves or those around them. Wynne discovered she had magic by setting a bully's head on fire, for example. 

 

I have no problem allowing fully trained mages being around people, but at the very least, don't underestimate how dangerous a mage just discovering their power can be, even if just by accident. Say they discover their magic and no one is hurt but they burnt down the season's crop. It would spell economic doom to the entire town unless reparations can be made.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I usually support mages as I feel the templars and seekers through systematic abuse of their powers and privileges have lost all trust in their ability to monitor magic and treat mages fairly and with dignity.

But I also recognize the threat untrained magic can be to not only the mage but also everyone around them.

I'm all for reformation, or at least forming a system where mages can be treated with dignity and also get the help and training they need. The Dalish have a Keeper and First, as well as other mages depending on the clan (it kind of sucks that the only good things you hear about the Dalish in Inquisition have to be heard while playing as a Dalish yourself,) the Avaar form alliances with spirits and learn magic directly from them, and these spirits/gods of theirs in turn protect them from the demons, and sometimes even in physical battles as well, the Rivaini have the Seers and a pseudo-circle system.

Some work better than others and in different aspects.

But no matter the method, all mages do need training in order to control their powers so they don't hurt themselves or those around them. Wynne discovered she had magic by setting a bully's head on fire, for example.

I have no problem allowing fully trained mages being around people, but at the very least, don't underestimate how dangerous a mage just discovering their power can be, even if just by accident. Say they discover their magic and no one is hurt but they burnt down the season's crop. It would spell economic doom to the entire town unless reparations can be made.

Funny how that's pretty much what Leliana does when the mages create the college

[Jaison1986]

I usually support mages as I feel the templars and seekers through systematic abuse of their powers and privileges have lost all trust in their ability to monitor magic and treat mages fairly and with dignity. 

 

But I also recognize the threat untrained magic can be to not only the mage but also everyone around them.

 

I'm all for reformation, or at least forming a system where mages can be treated with dignity and also get the help and training they need. The Dalish have a Keeper and First, as well as other mages depending on the clan (it kind of sucks that the only good things you hear about the Dalish in Inquisition have to be heard while playing as a Dalish yourself,) the Avaar form alliances with spirits and learn magic directly from them, and these spirits/gods of theirs in turn protect them from the demons, and sometimes even in physical battles as well, the Rivaini have the Seers and a pseudo-circle system. 

 

Some work better than others and in different aspects. 

 

But no matter the method, all mages do need training in order to control their powers so they don't hurt themselves or those around them. Wynne discovered she had magic by setting a bully's head on fire, for example. 

 

I have no problem allowing fully trained mages being around people, but at the very least, don't underestimate how dangerous a mage just discovering their power can be, even if just by accident. Say they discover their magic and no one is hurt but they burnt down the season's crop. It would spell economic doom to the entire town unless reparations can be made.

 

I think all mage supporters (the resonable ones at least) would agree that mages need a place of learning and it would be easier for them to live amongst their kind. But the templars have proven to be unsuitable for their task and it's better to remove them and find a better party to do it, be the Inquisition or the mages themselves. Considering how in Rivain the mages were living in relative peace with the common people, the templars were pretty much there just to keep appearances, since we never had any reports of trouble there until the seekers came.

[Kakistos_]

Then that means that pretty much your arguments could easily be ignored and Mage freedom works without problems. What would you do if Mage freedom wound up being better than circles?

 

Since there's absolutely no evidence that the white chantry circles make a society any safer: no

We only have this quote... "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

And there's Leliana's epilogue, of course.

THIS! The thing that everyone likes to conveniently ignore is the FACT that Mage freedom is already working in Thedas and HAS BEEN for thousands of years. The Avvar we encounter in the Jaws of Hakkon are proof of this as we see that they use their Magic for the greater good of their community. The Chantry's Circle system in contrast miraculously failed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

THIS! The thing that everyone likes to conveniently ignore is the FACT that Mage freedom is already working in Thedas and HAS BEEN for thousands of years. The Avvar we encounter in the Jaws of Hakkon are proof of this as we see that they use their Magic for the greater good of their community. The Chantry's Circle system in contrast miraculously failed.

Yes they proved they aren't threat to the world like with hakkon twice ouch...

[thesuperdarkone2]

Yes they proved they aren't threat to the world like with hakkon twice ouch...

You mean the part where a nonmage was the one who woke Hakkon again or where a MAGE is the reason Hakkon isn't awake

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

THIS! The thing that everyone likes to conveniently ignore is the FACT that Mage freedom is already working in Thedas and HAS BEEN for thousands of years. The Avvar we encounter in the Jaws of Hakkon are proof of this as we see that they use their Magic for the greater good of their community. The Chantry's Circle system in contrast miraculously failed.

While I agree that the Circle system failed, your other point is debatable. The plot of Jaws of Hakkon is started way back in the backstory by those same Avvar mages creating a monster, as Komandor already pointed out. (And it's so strange to find myself agreeing with him twice in one thread.) The Dalish system fails at least once each in the first two games, and while I don't know them to have yet failed in Inquisition I don't think they're done making new content for it yet. So, the day's still young there. We don't actually know what's going on in Rivain but they do the same thing Anders did, which I think is the same thing those Avvar did; unless they're much better at it than both the other two practitioners, the same thing is going to happen. And even Dorian, who is the best thing in the games to come out of Tevinter, is to some degree ashamed of the place. If the White Circle system as it was practiced before Asunder failed, it's far from the only system for dealing with magic that bad things resulted from. And the really serious bad thing that comes to mind when I think "failed Circle" was at least contained in a Tower on an island which as far as I know has no usable bridges to it.

 

 

You mean the part where a nonmage was the one who woke Hakkon again or where a MAGE is the reason Hakkon isn't awake

He didn't argue that nonmages can't be dangerous or that mages can't do good. He's arguing that the reason Hakkon is a danger is because there were free mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You mean the part where a nonmage was the one who woke Hakkon again or where a MAGE is the reason Hakkon isn't awake

I mean where mage broguht it to our world and it started to threaten it ,non-mage in first place can't interact with spirits and demons unless they are summoned.

That first inquisitor fixed problem that could have been started only by a mage is another matter. 

[TK514]

The Dalish system fails at least once each in the first two games, and while I don't know them to have yet failed in Inquisition I don't think they're done making new content for it yet. So, the day's still young there.

 

 

The Elf clan in the Exalted Plains has a teenage mage who gets himself killed with Blood Magic, as I recall.  Three for three.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Elf clan in the Exalted Plains has a teenage mage who gets himself killed with Blood Magic, as I recall.  Three for three.

How serious is this screw up? Does it summon a demon, or destroy his clan? Or does he merely overtax himself and bleed to death in a relatively safe failure of magic?

 

Edit: Okay, now that I've finally found it... wow. Okay, he implies that he's using Spirits, and there's Blood Magic. I think that combination usually means demons? And this one wasn't even sealed like Merril's. That doesn't go as badly as the other failures can, since his stupidity only costs his own life, but "three for three" doesn't sound too misplaced here.

[Drasanil]

THIS! The thing that everyone likes to conveniently ignore is the FACT that Mage freedom is already working in Thedas and HAS BEEN for thousands of years. The Avvar we encounter in the Jaws of Hakkon are proof of this as we see that they use their Magic for the greater good of their community. The Chantry's Circle system in contrast miraculously failed.

 

You mean by being the first group known to create a possessed-dragon-abomination that had the power to wipe out the only country holding back the second blight with the aim of unleashing it on said country?  How exactly does that fall under the "greater good of their community" or anyone's notion of greater good for that matter? 

 

Truly, a ringing endorsement of mage freedom if ever I saw one. Maybe you would care to review your "FACTS"? 

[Boost32]

How serious is this screw up? Does it summon a demon, or destroy his clan? Or does he merely overtax himself and bleed to death in a relatively safe failure of magic?
 
Edit: Okay, now that I've finally found it... wow. Okay, he implies that he's using Spirits, and there's Blood Magic. I think that combination usually means demons? And this one wasn't even sealed like Merril's. That doesn't go as badly as the other failures can, since his stupidity only costs his own life, but "three for three" doesn't sound too misplaced here.

You can count five out five.
Forgot about Velanna and her killing spree in Awekening?
And a Dalish clan that summoned Imshael in TME, they were wiped out in the end.

The Dalish system have already proved to be too dangerous to continue.

[TK514]

The Dalish we've met certainly don't seem to be following the whole 'We don't interact with spirits' thing very well, that's for certain.

[TobiTobsen]

THIS! The thing that everyone likes to conveniently ignore is the FACT that Mage freedom is already working in Thedas and HAS BEEN for thousands of years. The Avvar we encounter in the Jaws of Hakkon are proof of this as we see that they use their Magic for the greater good of their community. The Chantry's Circle system in contrast miraculously failed.

 

Another fact that people like to forget/ignore: Every civilization with free mages is also more or less run by them. They nearly all have a small mage upper class and a big "normal" people lower class.

 

There will never be equality, because mages and "normal" people aren't equals.

[Barquiel]

Another fact that people like to forget/ignore: Every civilization with free mages is also more or less run by them. They nearly all have a small mage upper class and a big "normal" people lower class.
 
There will never be equality, because mages and "normal" people aren't equals.

And how is that worse than anything else Thedas has to offer? None of Thedas' governments are democratic, and your bloodline seems to be important for all of them.

I can't believe I have to explain the correlation between "keeping bombs away from people" and "people being safer". If the majority of mages are within a Circle, then incidents will either happen within the Circle or the number of incidents ocurring on the outside will be severely diminished because, again, most mages are in the Circle. Uldred is a good example. How many non-mage civillians did he kill? Zero. How many would he have killed had he been in Denerim?
If all mages are outside, then all incidents happen outside in which case, more people die. It's just basic logic. The pro-mage position is to endanger a 100 people so that one mage can have no restrictions.

Considering all those societies are ruled by mages, whether it be a tyranny or a benevolent oligarchy, I can only assume the author is a mage supremacist.

Which never mentions safety at all.

The Uldred incident only happened because of the Chantry and the templars, it never would have happened in Denerim. Uldred cuts a deal with Loghain for mages in Ferelden to be free. Therefore it's safe to assume that nobody would have died if there were no circles. But instead who knows how many of innocent mages died because the templars didn't let anyone out. But I guess their lives don't count...

Of course you do...

I seriously doubt mages would enjoy unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas if they were turning into abominations left and right. Same with Rivain

[Iakus]

You mean by being the first group known to create a possessed-dragon-abomination that had the power to wipe out the only country holding back the second blight with the aim of unleashing it on said country?  How exactly does that fall under the "greater good of their community" or anyone's notion of greater good for that matter? 

 

Truly, a ringing endorsement of mage freedom if ever I saw one. Maybe you would care to review your "FACTS"? 

Don't forget that their system "works" because their weaker mages have a mysterious tendency to die in their sleep....

[TobiTobsen]

And how is that worse than anything else Thedas has to offer? None of Thedas' governments are democratic, and your bloodline seems to be important for all of them.
 

 

You can change feudalism. You cannot change magic.

[Barquiel]

You can change feudalism. You cannot change magic.

Well, if they ever figure out democracy in Thedas, we can talk about that

But as long as we have incompetent and/or horrible people like Cailan, Florian and Gaspard who can rule (or think they can rule) their countries simply because it's their birthright, I don't see why a magocracy is worse.

[Boost32]

And how is that worse than anything else Thedas has to offer? None of Thedas' governments are democratic, and your bloodline seems to be important for all of them.The Uldred incident only happened because of the Chantry and the templars, it never would have happened in Denerim. Uldred cuts a deal with Loghain for mages in Ferelden to be free. Therefore it's safe to assume that nobody would have died if there were no circles. But instead who knows how many of innocent mages died because the templars didn't let anyone out. But I guess their lives don't count...Of course you do...I seriously doubt mages would enjoy unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas if they were turning into abominations left and right. Same with Rivain

Or its safe to presume that more people would have died if Uldred was free.

[Iakus]

But as long as we have incompetent and/or horrible people like Cailan, Florian and Gaspard who can rule (or think they can rule) their countries simply because it's their birthright, I don't see why a magocracy is worse.

They can't drag an entire city into the Fade.

[Barquiel]

They can't drag an entire city into the Fade.

I don't see your point. The mad Florian's rule had brought the Orleasian empire to the brink of collapse. Gaspard put his country in more danger than ever in an effort to seize power for himself. A bad non-mage ruler can do just as much damage as bad mage rulers. And unlike some other countries Tevinter didn't have a civil war in the last years...

[Iakus]

I don't see your point. The mad Florian's rule had brought the Orleasian empire to the brink of collapse. Gaspard put his country in more danger than ever in an effort to seize power for himself. A bad non-mage ruler can do just as much damage as bad mage rulers.

 

A bad non-mage ruler requires others to do their bidding.  Gaspard needed an army.  Florian needed the Venatori.  

 

The Baroness just needed blood and a Pride Demon.

[Shienis]

But as long as we have incompetent and/or horrible people like Cailan, Florian and Gaspard who can rule (or think they can rule) their countries simply because it's their birthright, I don't see why a magocracy is worse.

 

And why it's better?  

[Deztyn]

I feel loved.

They probably are. The problem is that the southern mages are not even that, and I think a system that treats mages as subhuman without clear and present evidence that it is necessary needs to go.

Instead, you endorse a system that only works because everyone else is indisputably treated subhuman and it's entirely unnecessary?

Bottom line, I can't agree with the position that everything non-magical people have, their livelihood, their homes, their families, their lives is worth risking just so mages don't feel restricted in their five star prisons where they already have acess to luxuries most people don't such as an education.

Vivienne has so many great lines on the subject. I don't think most people who criticize her have even bothered to explore them. Diasagreeing with her opinion is one thing, but I don't know how anyone can think she's insincere when you can feel the condemnation dripping from every word. Her voice actress does an amazing job conveying how much genuine anger and scorn she has for the rebels.

And BTW, that doesn't make the mage "plight" all that unique. People with power abusing it happens all over the world. Tevinter for instance.

"Every Circle was different, their templars were different, their politics unique... and every person within each tower had an experience of Circle life unique to themselves. Some people suffered, and some were content. Some were cruel, some compassionate, and some indifferent. The same is true of people everywhere, in all circumstances, whether they are mages or not."
See what I mean? Viv has a line for everything.

Lambert restricting the mages could also have to do something with a serial killer running rampant in the White Spire and a mage from that circle trying to assassinate the Divine...

QFT.
Asunder makes it clear that these are new restrictions, and one of the reasons for the unrest in the tower.

Since there's absolutely no evidence that the white chantry circles make a society any safer: no

We only have this quote... "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Here's a quote from David Gaider on the subject:
"They exist without controlling mages. Meaning that if a mage turns into an abomination and causes destruction, or otherwise causes problems, they simply suffer and deal with it. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that not everyone is going to consider that a viable alternative."

Couldn't say it better myself.

And there's Leliana's epilogue, of course.

For the moment.

Moments aren't very long.

And a Dalish clan that summoned Imshael in TME, they were wiped out in the end.

Not only did Ishmael wipe them out, he also went on to cultivate a nice red lyrium farm for Corypheus.

The Uldred incident only happened because of the Chantry and the templars, it never would have happened in Denerim. Uldred cuts a deal with Loghain for mages in Ferelden to be free. Therefore it's safe to assume that nobody would have died if there were no circles. But instead who knows how many of innocent mages died because the templars didn't let anyone out. But I guess their lives don't count...

Who knows how many innocent templars died because they were locked away to prevent any threats from escaping?

Who knows how many innocent people were protected because the templars didn't let anyone out?

But I guess their lives don't count either?

I seriously doubt mages would enjoy unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas if they were turning into abominations left and right.

For the moment

I don't see your point. The mad Florian's rule had brought the Orleasian empire to the brink of collapse. Gaspard put his country in more danger than ever in an effort to seize power for himself. A bad non-mage ruler can do just as much damage as bad mage rulers. And unlike some other countries Tevinter didn't have a civil war in the last years...

The problem with this reasoning is that everything a normal ruler can do, a mage ruler can do as well. Except the mage ruler can also blood magic away anyone who refuses to follow them and set demons on their opposition in addition to the mundane ways of keeping control of their empire.

[Barquiel]

And why it's better?

 
It isn't better. But I don't think it's worse than any other form of government that currently exists in Thedas
 

A bad non-mage ruler requires others to do their bidding.

Monarchs usually don't have a problem to find such people...