Who knows how many innocent templars died because they were locked away to prevent any threats from escaping?
Templars? Innocent? Are you kidding? Since when those cruel sadistic monsters who oppress the poor pure nice mages are innocent? Or even humans?
/sharkasm off
It isn't better. But I don't think it's worse than any other form of government that currently exists in Thedas
Since it isn't better, then there's no need to change it. 
Monarchs usually don't have a problem to find such people...
Yet they still require them.
The point is, and has always been, that mages can be incredibly destructive by themselves. Even against their will.
Templars? Innocent? Are you kidding? Since when those cruel sadistic monsters who oppress the poor pure nice mages are innocent? Or even humans?
/sharkasm off
Since it isn't better, then there's no need to change it.
Not only did Ishmael wipe them out, he also went on to cultivate a nice red lyrium farm for Corypheus.
Oh, it gets better.
According to WoT volume 2, Imshael let some of the children escape and make it to another Dalish clan.
One that barely had enough supplies for themselves for the winter.
He was quite interested in seeing what that clan will choose to do with the kids.
Oh, it gets better.
According to WoT volume 2, Imshael let some of the children escape and make it to another Dalish clan.
One that barely had enough supplies for themselves for the winter.
He was quite interested in seeing what that clan will choose to do with the kids.
probably eat them, barbarians
But as long as we have incompetent and/or horrible people like Cailan, Florian and Gaspard who can rule (or think they can rule) their countries simply because it's their birthright, I don't see why a magocracy is worse.
Cailan, Florianne, and Gaspard are just more argument for why people with power need regulations imposed on them, just like the mages.
But as long as we have incompetent and/or horrible people like Cailan, Florian and Gaspard who can rule (or think they can rule) their countries simply because it's their birthright, I don't see why a magocracy is worse.
I think I've already pointed this out, but...
As part of the plot that made her the Empress, Celene faked an assassination attempt against herself to gain sympathy. She did this by killing all of her elven servants, except for one who escaped. (You might have met her in Inquisition.) Now, that the Muggle Empress Celene did this was terrible, but what would a Mage Empress Celene be like? Celene found herself in one situation where killing all her elven servants was a prudent move, and did it. If she found that killing one of her servants every so often led to a new bridge assembling itself out of bedrock, or a rival's palace collapsing, or a storm swallowing a boat with an annoying noble on it?
The very worst mundane rulers still aren't as bad as the very worst magical rulers, if the rules of magic in your setting mean that you should be a horrible person for best results.
You can count five out five.
Forgot about Velanna and her killing spree in Awekening?
And a Dalish clan that summoned Imshael in TME, they were wiped out in the end.
The Dalish system have already proved to be too dangerous to continue.
I was counting Awakening as part of Origins (hence why I say "at least once each") and wasn't counting TME since it's not a game. But you're not wrong that those are failures of the Dalish system. (Even if Imshael has the mitigating factor that he was bound until outsiders came along and freed him.)
I think I've already pointed this out, but...
As part of the plot that made her the Empress, Celene faked an assassination attempt against herself to gain sympathy. She did this by killing all of her elven servants, except for one who escaped. (You might have met her in Inquisition.) Now, that the Muggle Empress Celene did this was terrible, but what would a Mage Empress Celene be like? Celene found herself in one situation where killing all her elven servants was a prudent move, and did it. If she found that killing one of her servants every so often led to a new bridge assembling itself out of bedrock, or a rival's palace collapsing, or a storm swallowing a boat with an annoying noble on it?
The very worst mundane rulers still aren't as bad as the very worst magical rulers, if the rules of magic mean that you should be a horrible person for best results.
And
You know, the one at the bottom was what I had in mind when I wrote that, and I'd read the other one, but this is the first time I've read them both and realized they're probably different perspectives of the same event.
Incorrect. If you speak with Orsino and various Templars in the Gallows just before "The Final Straw" it is revealed that Meredith already sent the request to Orlais.
Can you provide a source for this? Because I have not found any evidence of Orsino saying that, and the confrontation between him and Meredith in The Final Straw would have been a perfect opportunity for him to bring that up. Before Anders' act of terror, Meredith's plan is to go through the Circle to hunt for Blood Mages but not to kill all mages. You can see the cutscene inquestion here:
Cailan, Florianne, and Gaspard are just more argument for why people with power need regulations imposed on them, just like the mages.
And yet they don't. It's just like Dorian says "everything happens the way it does for one reason. Because it's aways had been done this way".
Tradition is an vile thing.
Can you provide a source for this? Because I have not found any evidence of Orsino saying that, and the confrontation between him and Meredith in The Final Straw would have been a perfect opportunity for him to bring that up. Before Anders' act of terror, Meredith's plan is to go through the Circle to hunt for Blood Mages but not to kill all mages.
Ambient dialogue in the Gallows from one of the Templars. Karras, I believe.
EDIT: Here.
https://youtu.be/0mp4DEYTCH8?t=19s
Cailan, Florianne, and Gaspard are just more argument for why people with power need regulations imposed on them, just like the mages.
That is difficult because they are the people making the regulations.
No one in political power will ever institute policies that limit what they themselves can do.
While I agree that the Circle system failed, your other point is debatable. The plot of Jaws of Hakkon is started way back in the backstory by those same Avvar mages creating a monster, as Komandor already pointed out. (And it's so strange to find myself agreeing with him twice in one thread.) The Dalish system fails at least once each in the first two games, and while I don't know them to have yet failed in Inquisition I don't think they're done making new content for it yet. So, the day's still young there. We don't actually know what's going on in Rivain but they do the same thing Anders did, which I think is the same thing those Avvar did; unless they're much better at it than both the other two practitioners, the same thing is going to happen. And even Dorian, who is the best thing in the games to come out of Tevinter, is to some degree ashamed of the place. If the White Circle system as it was practiced before Asunder failed, it's far from the only system for dealing with magic that bad things resulted from. And the really serious bad thing that comes to mind when I think "failed Circle" was at least contained in a Tower on an island which as far as I know has no usable bridges to it.
He didn't argue that nonmages can't be dangerous or that mages can't do good. He's arguing that the reason Hakkon is a danger is because there were free mages.
I suppose that depends on what you define as success and failure. When I point out the various societies as examples of success I score this by a Mage's ability to live side by side with their people while maintaining control of themselves and their abilities. All the societies I have mentioned have displayed this. Now if your standards for working Mage freedom are that Mages are 100% complete saints, absolutely no bad apples and never ever make mistakes or questionable decisions then Mage Freedom will of course always be a failure.
The Jaws of Hakkon are ONE Avvar Clan, composed of Warriors, Rouges and Mages WORKING TOGETHER. They ALL made questionable decisions, not just the Mages. The vast majority of Avvar had nothing to do with their plan, the majority of Avvar Mages had nothing to do with their plan. If you deem that Mage Freedom doesn't work because a few individuals make poor decisions then by that vain all of civilized society has failed. That is an unreasonable standard.
The Dalish cases you cite, presumably Merrill and Zathrien, are both cases of poor judgement. Merrill and Zathrien did not make poor decisions just because they were Mages but because, like everyone, they are fallible and flawed. You will note that both of them while dealing even with Demons and Blood Magic maintained full control and did not spontaneously erupt into Abominations nor did they control or lead anyone by force.
If every Dalish Mage acted in with the same accord then the Dalish would cease to be, but as you know they have gone on like this for hundreds of years and their Hunters, who vastly outnumber the Keepers, are content to let them lead. The Dalish had Free Mages long before they became nomadic and is was not their Mages that destroyed them, it was the Chantry. Logain, notably non-Magical, made poor decisions as well and did more damage than Merrill and Zathrien combined.
You mean by being the first group known to create a possessed-dragon-abomination that had the power to wipe out the only country holding back the second blight with the aim of unleashing it on said country? How exactly does that fall under the "greater good of their community" or anyone's notion of greater good for that matter?
Truly, a ringing endorsement of mage freedom if ever I saw one. Maybe you would care to review your "FACTS"?
The Jaws of Hakkon were one Avvar clan composed of mostly mundane men and women. Mages were a small yet crucial part of their forces. Do you really think that had the Jaws of Hakkon not had Mages they would have all just given up and gone home? You forget the fact that they were stopped by a Free Mage, Inquisitor Ameridan. You also forget that Mages are crucial in the fight against Darkspawn and without them Grey Wardens would not exist.
Another fact that people like to forget/ignore: Every civilization with free mages is also more or less run by them. They nearly all have a small mage upper class and a big "normal" people lower class.
There will never be equality, because mages and "normal" people aren't equals.
Your statement is completely incorrect. Tevinter Mages rule. Dalish Keepers lead out of tradition and not by force. The Avvar are led by Thanes and their Auger only advises while other Mages are as equals among the warriors. Warden Mages are treated equally and can be of any rank in the Order. The Rivaini Seers are only Spiritual leaders and meet once a year to pledge fealty to Rivain's Queen/King.
The Jaws of Hakkon are ONE Avvar Clan, composed of Warriors, Rouges and Mages WORKING TOGETHER. They ALL made questionable decisions, not just the Mages. The vast majority of Avvar had nothing to do with their plan, the majority of Avvar Mages had nothing to do with their plan. If you deem that Mage Freedom doesn't work because a few individuals make poor decisions then by that vain all of civilized society has failed. That is an unreasonable standard.
The Dalish cases you cite, presumably Merrill and Zathrien, are both cases of poor judgement. Merrill and Zathrien did not make poor decisions just because they were Mages but because, like everyone, they are fallible and flawed. You will note that both of them while dealing even with Demons and Blood Magic maintained full control and did not spontaneously erupt into Abominations nor did they control or lead anyone by force.
If every Dalish Mage acted in with the same accord then the Dalish would cease to be, but as you know they have gone on like this for hundreds of years and their Hunters, who vastly outnumber the Keepers, are content to let them lead. The Dalish had Free Mages long before they became nomadic and is was not their Mages that destroyed them, it was the Chantry. Logain, notably non-Magical, made poor decisions as well and did more damage than Merrill and Zathrien combined.
The Jaws of Hakkon were one Avvar clan composed of mostly mundane men and women. Mages were a small yet crucial part of their forces. Do you really think that had the Jaws of Hakkon not had Mages they would have all just given up and gone home? You forget the fact that they were stopped by a Free Mage, Inquisitor Ameridan. You also forget that Mages are crucial in the fight against Darkspawn and without them Grey Wardens would not exist.
So? It doesn't change fact they created disaster threatening the world , a disaster that they could have cause only thanks to having mages and was caused mainly because of avvar attitude toward spirits.Poor decisions in case of mages often have devastating consequences for the world and that is reason why they are isolated from society , so people can contain consequences of their poor decisions or/and of their weakness and deal with it.
Again so what? Their flaws cost world dearly and that is why threat they pose need to be dealt with, that mages are flawed humans is pretty much one of reasons why they are massive threat...
Merril in control? 
Please she succumbed to demon moment she faced one ,avoiding that she was toy for another demon if hawke didn't save her in first case it would end for her poorly ,same marethari taking bullet for her.
Weak argument Tevinter almost destroyed world and still exist because others cleaned their mess, pretty much almost all if not all dalish clans we saw had problems that mages caused.Loghain was leader had people behind him and pretty much sure he didn't do more damage than blight that was caused by mages and in first place he did those "bad" things in order to stop very problem that was caused by mages.
I don't know if they would gave up and went to home ,but for sure they wouldn't summon ubermega demon that threatening the world without mages.Either they would just deal with it they can't do anything or were crushed by others.
There is no danger that a mage poses or is susceptible to that is unique to them. We have learned even Tranquil and Templars can be possesed, non-mages can summon and commune with demons (Lady Harrimonn used a desire demon to take control of Starkhaven), and all people face temptation when presented with power. Is a mage any more dangerous than a petulant lord's brat who uses his father's soldiers to burn down an alienage?
The problem the Circles were created to solve has no solution. It's the problem of free will. There will always be those who choose to use the abilities at their disposal for evil purposes, just as there will always be those who chose to use them for good. Blood Mages and power hungry mages will always exist, but the Circles add onto that the desperate and the despairing. They make the problem worse, not better.
Punishing people for something that's out of their ability to control (the fact that they have magic in the first place, not what they do with it) will never lead to stability or peace. The Circles were not safe places for mages because they lived their entire lives with the twin swords of Annulment and Tranquility hanging over their heads, even if they didn't realize it.
I am for a place where mages can live, study, and grow in relative security. But what the Circles provided was the illusion of security.
I suppose that depends on what you define as success and failure. When I point out the various societies as examples of success I score this by a Mage's ability to live side by side with their people while maintaining control of themselves and their abilities. All the societies I have mentioned have displayed this. Now if your standards for working Mage freedom are that Mages are 100% complete saints, absolutely no bad apples and never ever make mistakes or questionable decisions then Mage Freedom will of course always be a failure.
The Jaws of Hakkon are ONE Avvar Clan, composed of Warriors, Rouges and Mages WORKING TOGETHER. They ALL made questionable decisions, not just the Mages. The vast majority of Avvar had nothing to do with their plan, the majority of Avvar Mages had nothing to do with their plan. If you deem that Mage Freedom doesn't work because a few individuals make poor decisions then by that vain all of civilized society has failed. That is an unreasonable standard.
The Dalish cases you cite, presumably Merrill and Zathrien, are both cases of poor judgement. Merrill and Zathrien did not make poor decisions just because they were Mages but because, like everyone, they are fallible and flawed. You will note that both of them while dealing even with Demons and Blood Magic maintained full control and did not spontaneously erupt into Abominations nor did they control or lead anyone by force.
If every Dalish Mage acted in with the same accord then the Dalish would cease to be, but as you know they have gone on like this for hundreds of years and their Hunters, who vastly outnumber the Keepers, are content to let them lead. The Dalish had Free Mages long before they became nomadic and is was not their Mages that destroyed them, it was the Chantry. Logain, notably non-Magical, made poor decisions as well and did more damage than Merrill and Zathrien combined.
My definition of success: every magical threat that a culture manages to take down or prevent from happening in the first place is a success. Every such threat that they create that causes serious damage relative to the size of their culture, or worse yet cause serious damage to both their own and another culture, is a failure.
By that standard, all of the cultures in question have both succeeded and failed countless times. The second most dramatic of these failures was the White Chantry's Circles rebellion, which was partially because they'd lost sight of mages humanity. (Though Corypheus certainly fanned the flames when given the chance, whether or not he had the influence to start it off.) Easily the largest is Corypheus's assault on the Gold City, so Pre-Andraste Tevinter is definitely the biggest failure.
So, by my standards, the White Chantry system is the second biggest failure due to the massive explosion that is the Mage Rebellion. Fine. I haven't denied that. The thing is, I think that this system can be rebuilt bearing in mind that it made mistakes, and go back to only dramatically failing once a century. Vivienne's epilogue slide, in which mages have increased responsibility and freedom doesn't seem like a bad example, though all of that is vague enough that I could be entirely wrong. Still, if it is what it sounds like (namely, the Templars guarding the mages from themselves and from mundanes and guarding mundanes from the mages while recognizing that they're all human or equivalent to such) that could be exactly the system Thedas needs. This emphasis on the basic humanity of mages might also mean that idiots like Isolde are less inclined to find the idea of a mage child humiliating, and keep them away from proper training on that ground.
And once it goes back to only creating a massive threat once every century or so and that threat being Annulled before it catches its breath, it becomes more consistently reliable than the Dalish (who seem to lose clans to this often enough to be worth commenting on and are less able to take the loss than humanity is able to take the loss of an entire city) and judging by the Gaider quote that popped up a while ago it'll also be more consistently reliable than Rivain. (To the best of my knowledge we don't actually know how reliable Tevinter is beyond our efforts to gauge the implications of the fact that we don't actually know, but there's other reasons not to prefer the system they have.)
There is no danger that a mage poses or is susceptible to that is unique to them. We have learned even Tranquil and Templars can be possesed, non-mages can summon and commune with demons (Lady Harrimonn used a desire demon to take control of Starkhaven), and all people face temptation when presented with power. Is a mage any more dangerous than a petulant lord's brat who uses his father's soldiers to burn down an alienage?
The problem the Circles were created to solve has no solution. It's the problem of free will. There will always be those who choose to use the abilities at their disposal for evil purposes, just as there will always be those who chose to use them for good. Blood Mages and power hungry mages will always exist, but the Circles add onto that the desperate and the despairing. They make the problem worse, not better.
Punishing people for something that's out of their ability to control (the fact that they have magic in the first place, not what they do with it) will never lead to stability or peace. The Circles were not safe places for mages because they lived their entire lives with the twin swords of Annulment and Tranquility hanging over their heads, even if they didn't realize it.
I am for a place where mages can live, study, and grow in relative security. But what the Circles provided was the illusion of security.
First off, my understanding is that you meet Allure and Harriman in Tevinter Ruins under the Harriman estate. It seems to me that meeting a demon in a Tevinter Ruin is more likely than non-mages being able to summon them but that not being a widespread problem.
Also: a mage who goes abomination is much more dangerous than the lording's brat. The one thing abominations have that other demoniacs do not is magic of their own to go with it. A possessed mundane is able to use the demon's magic, a possessed Templar has that and anti-magic, a possessed tree becomes amubulatory and has its durability and the demon's magic, and a mage has the demon's (usually limited in scope) magic plus their own. That does kinda sound like the sort of threat where entire cities falling to it is not necessarily unprecedented, given that a Rage Demon (the weakest of the original demons apart from the Wisps) in a cat can kill two well-trained knights with the power to block magic.
I don't view the Circles so much a way to prevent mages from abusing muggles as a way of teaching them not to go abomination and (if that fails) making sure as many abominations as possible form away from densely populated areas. If that failed with Connor (which is the logical rebuttal, so inb4), it was partially because Isolde was just a complete idiot (and why doesn't she have to deal with any legal sanctions for her actions?), partially because of her humiliation over the situation (which was partially due to the stigma on magic I hope can be mitigated by Divine Victoria,) and just partially because Jowan put Connor in a bad place (and it's unclear what good he would have been as a teacher, for that matter.)
There will almost certainly be mages abusing muggles and abominations forming in urban centers despite the Circles. The Circle doesn't so much solve the problem as mitigate it. But mitigating helps.
There is no danger that a mage poses or is susceptible to that is unique to them. We have learned even Tranquil and Templars can be possesed, non-mages can summon and commune with demons (Lady Harrimonn used a desire demon to take control of Starkhaven), and all people face temptation when presented with power. Is a mage any more dangerous than a petulant lord's brat who uses his father's soldiers to burn down an alienage?
The problem the Circles were created to solve has no solution. It's the problem of free will. There will always be those who choose to use the abilities at their disposal for evil purposes, just as there will always be those who chose to use them for good. Blood Mages and power hungry mages will always exist, but the Circles add onto that the desperate and the despairing. They make the problem worse, not better.
Punishing people for something that's out of their ability to control (the fact that they have magic in the first place, not what they do with it) will never lead to stability or peace. The Circles were not safe places for mages because they lived their entire lives with the twin swords of Annulment and Tranquility hanging over their heads, even if they didn't realize it.
I am for a place where mages can live, study, and grow in relative security. But what the Circles provided was the illusion of security.
Not rly...
In first place, they were possessed or were in contact because demons were already brought into real world ,what in pretty almost all cases is mage fault.And there is that only mages can become an abomnation.
Again,circle as i said was created to deal with such examples and contain them so they won't harm the world.Pretty much Uldred example is showing where he turned into abomnation because of his ambition and pride ,fortunately thanks to the circle threat was contained now i poorly see situation where urlded or somone like uldred lead to such situation in the middle of the city destroying it and creating an army of undead and abomnations and then unleashing it upon world.
Nope, mages were under threat of RoT until Harrowing and even then in most cases it was possible choice , unless of course you were criminal then it was used as punishment. Mages have to live under constant "fear" they will become possessed circle or not it is simple reality.
There is no danger that a mage poses or is susceptible to that is unique to them. We have learned even Tranquil and Templars can be possesed, non-mages can summon and commune with demons (Lady Harrimonn used a desire demon to take control of Starkhaven), and all people face temptation when presented with power. Is a mage any more dangerous than a petulant lord's brat who uses his father's soldiers to burn down an alienage?
The problem the Circles were created to solve has no solution. It's the problem of free will. There will always be those who choose to use the abilities at their disposal for evil purposes, just as there will always be those who chose to use them for good. Blood Mages and power hungry mages will always exist, but the Circles add onto that the desperate and the despairing. They make the problem worse, not better.
Demons are drawn to mages more than ordinary folks thanks to their stronger connection to the Fade. This also makes them easier to possess. Templars are much harder for demons to possess. And Tranquil don't even show up as alive to a demon's senses, making them unlikely to even be noticed, let alone possessed.
Also, Lady Harriman was a blood mage. She tried controlling the desire demon and ended up being influenced by it herself even as she thought she was in charge.
A mage is more dangerous than a petulant lord's brat because the mage can burn down an alienage just by willing it.
But yes, ultimately the problem is free will. There will always be those who will abuse their power, be they mage, Templar, or nobleman. The problem is, a mage cannot be stripped of their power, and can single-handedly cause tremendous amounts of damage and loss of life through misuse of their power, deliberately or even accidentally.
Pro circle supporters, what do you think of the college?
College of Enchanters at least seems to want to maintain ties with the Inquisition if not the Chantry.
The Bright Hand is a disaster waiting to happen though.
Edit: Not sure I qualify as "Pro-Circle" though. More "Pro- 'some sort of policing needs to be done'"
Pro circle supporters, what do you think of the college?
I think it reacted quite admirably when it caught that Thalmor murderer in its midst. Oh, wait, wrong setting.
Honestly, I don't know if there's enough information to go on. The wiki on Inquisition's epilogue is pretty vague. There's potential for it to be as good as the Circle, I guess, but we don't know whether or not it is. If mages enforce the necessary bits of the Circle's discipline on their own (and make sure not to hire any Alriks or Merediths) and they allow the Inquisition to supervise them somewhat in order to catch them if they slip, then that's just as good as the Circle and in some ways better.
On the other hand a College of free mages can also be a way for mages to scheme free of Templar supervision, spread arts that ought to be strictly controlled if they aren't flatly forbidden, and plot to gain influence using dubious means. The College might even wind up throwing its lot in with Tevinter, or plotting to conquer the rest of Thedas and then conquer Tevinter.
I imagine that there are some College mages with each vision, but I don't think we know which is going to win. The wiki page certainly isn't giving us much to go on, and my understanding is that it's giving us all that the epilogue does. Tl;dr, I have no idea what I think of the College.
Your statement is completely incorrect. Tevinter Mages rule.
Can't be completly incorrect then, hm?
Dalish Keepers lead out of tradition and not by force.
So? The Keepers are still all mages. Doesn't matter by what means they rule, the position is still mage exclusive and most of the Keepers (and some Firsts) we've met till now are a rather big danger to their surroundings.
Marethari, Zathrian, Thelhen and Velanna endager and/or kill quite a few people with feats that would be impossible for non-mages.
The Avvar are led by Thanes and their Auger only advises while other Mages are as equals among the warriors.
I'll give you that one. Still, just as mentioned above by other posters, the Avvar mages are not really the best example of free mages doing the world any good.
Warden Mages are treated equally and can be of any rank in the Order.
Just like the Avaar the Wardens are another example of how free mages are not healthy for their surroundings. Avernus brought down an entire castle through sundering the fade and releasing demons everywhere, while the entire mage chapter of the orlesian order thought that massive blood magic rituals to enslave their fellow wardens and giant demon armies would be a grand idea after they failed to notice a fake calling.
The Rivaini Seers are only Spiritual leaders and meet once a year to pledge fealty to Rivain's Queen/King.
I assume you take that from the Seers and the Allsmet codex entry? Because that codex explicitly states that the Seers are the village leaders. How is that just spiritual leading?
So we've got one King/Queen sitting in his/her castle and the feudal structure under them is made up from mages.
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