If I rember the original Dark Phoenix saga, wasn't Phoenix corrupted by exposure to human emotion.That's precisely whom I had in mind. Jean Grey is not demonic but she can get out of control without her choosing due to the Phoenix.
Religion is well known to hold hands with the extremism. Just give them a little power and it aways go downhill. Religion might not be the only source of extremism, but it's more prone to fall towards it then other ideologies.
Correction: All beliefs in general hold hands with extremism. Most of the wars in 20th century, our last century, were wars that had nothing to do with religion and were fought with extremist as well.
So no, it's not religion that's the issue. It's just us going way crazy about anything.
.-. Yo
speak of the devil and he shall appear.
So? It doesn't change fact they created disaster threatening the world , a disaster that they could have cause only thanks to having mages and was caused mainly because of avvar attitude toward spirits.Poor decisions in case of mages often have devastating consequences for the world and that is reason why they are isolated from society , so people can contain consequences of their poor decisions or/and of their weakness and deal with it.
Again so what? Their flaws cost world dearly and that is why threat they pose need to be dealt with, that mages are flawed humans is pretty much one of reasons why they are massive threat...
Merril in control?
Please she succumbed to demon moment she faced one ,avoiding that she was toy for another demon if hawke didn't save her in first case it would end for her poorly ,same marethari taking bullet for her.
Weak argument Tevinter almost destroyed world and still exist because others cleaned their mess, pretty much almost all if not all dalish clans we saw had problems that mages caused.Loghain was leader had people behind him and pretty much sure he didn't do more damage than blight that was caused by mages and in first place he did those "bad" things in order to stop very problem that was caused by mages.
I don't know if they would gave up and went to home ,but for sure they wouldn't summon ubermega demon that threatening the world without mages.Either they would just deal with it they can't do anything or were crushed by others.
Mages did not create every disaster threatening the world. The Fade and Demons are natural phenomena of Thedas and would exist regardless of Mages. The Blight also exists independent of Mages and there is evidence to suggest that the Blight and perhaps even Darkspawn existed in Thedas long before the Magisters breached the Fade. But I sense that those facts will not sway you. If you insist on blaming those events on Mages then blame them on the individual responsible. Corypheus. Blaming every other Mage, even if they were born centuries later is grossly unfair.
Can't be completly incorrect then, hm?
So? The Keepers are still all mages. Doesn't matter by what means they rule, the position is still mage exclusive and most of the Keepers (and some Firsts) we've met till now are a rather big danger to their surroundings.
Marethari, Zathrian, Thelhen and Velanna endager and/or kill quite a few people with feats that would be impossible for non-mages.
I'll give you that one. Still, just as mentioned above by other posters, the Avvar mages are not really the best example of free mages doing the world any good.
Just like the Avaar the Wardens are another example of how free mages are not healthy for their surroundings. Avernus brought down an entire castle through sundering the fade and releasing demons everywhere, while the entire mage chapter of the orlesian order thought that massive blood magic rituals to enslave their fellow wardens and giant demon armies would be a grand idea after they failed to notice a fake calling.
I assume you take that from the Seers and the Allsmet codex entry? Because that codex explicitly states that the Seers are the village leaders. How is that just spiritual leading?
So we've got one King/Queen sitting in his/her castle and the feudal structure under them is made up from mages.
You stated that every society with Free Mages is ruled by them. I corrected and informed you that a most of them are in fact not ruled by Mages. Yes, your statement was completely incorrect. You are nitpicking and grasping at straws. The Rivani Seers are not rulers by any definition i.e. "Having supreme power over a nation". Do you really consider a Spiritual/community leader a RULER? You cannot dismiss the fact that they owe their allegiance to an actual RULER.
In most of the events you cited Mages are working side by side with their non-Magical comrades. Avernus is following the orders of his MUNDANE Commander. The Avvar Mages are following the orders of their MUNDANE Thane. You cannot blame Mages for everything. The Avvar Mages are an excellent example of Mages doing good. The Jaws of Hakkon DLC clearly illustrates that they are a benefit to their society on multiple fronts. Avvar Augers act as intermediaries between the Avvar and Spirits and the Spirits in turn warn the Avvar of danger, help them in battle and even ward away Demons.
The Avvar Clans range throughout the entire Frosback Mountains. The Jaws of Hakkon are ONE clan of mundane AND Mage alike that used Magic as a weapon of war. The Chantry and even Qunari do this. You cannot condemn EVERY Avvar Auger and Mage because of the actions of a few while under the command of their NON-Mage leader.
Kakistos, since you never actually replied when I explained why virtually all societies where mages are free they rule over others, I think I'll just post i here again.
Your arguments are the underlined ones, if you do not recall them.
A many of the societies that we know anything about with Free Mages are in fact not ruled by Mages. The Wardens, Rivain, the Avvar ARE NOT ruled by Mages and have mundane leaders.
(snip)
And you ignore that all evidences points to the Magister bringing the Blight to the world, there was no mention of them before the seven ventured into the Black City or the fact they have been transformed into Darkspawn.
And they have almost destroyed the world with their mages, it doesnt matter if a mudane ordered them, if they were in the Circles it would have not happened.
The Grey Wardens are worse, their mages almost gave a army of demons to Corypheus. And now are you going to say it was a mudane? Because Corypheus is a mage, Erimond is a amge and even Clarel is a mage.
You can say all you like about the Avvars, but we only know 3 clans, Ths Stone-Bear, Jaws of Hakkon and Jaws of Hakon 2.0. 2 of those clan had their mages do things that would have devastated half of a country because of their magic. I dont condemm them, but they need to be put in a quarentine zone for things like Hakkon, not happen again.
And those societies failed to check their mages.
"Having supreme power over a nation". Do you really consider a Spiritual/community leader a RULER? You cannot dismiss the fact that they owe their allegiance to an actual RULER.
Rivain is so fractured politically and culturally that the Kings/Queens of Rivain, as well as the Rivainy Chantry, have next to no power outside the capital. In effect the Seers do rule, that they theoretically owe allegiance to a "RULER" doesn't preclude them from effectively having most/all the power.
A many of the societies that we know anything about with Free Mages are in fact not ruled by Mages. The Wardens, Rivain, the Avvar ARE NOT ruled by Mages and have mundane leaders.
Wardens aren't a "society", they're a military group with in a society. And even at that they generally take precautions against mages by limiting the numbers they recruit. Though that seems to have been retconned [to disastrous effect] with Clarel and her seemingly numberless hordes of mages.
As stated above, Rivain is effectively ruled by mages despite having a muggle king/queen.
The Avvar, yes the Thane rules. The Shamans only counsel, guide and interpret the will of the gods. That last bit is key, how many superstitious barbarians do you think are prone to going against the "will of the gods" despite the fact that they're technically in charge? How many tribesmen will follow a Thane who considered accursed/rejected by the gods? The Thanes may rule, but the shamans still have a lot of power, to the point of effectively being able to rule if they choose so, given the whole communing with the objects of worship thing.
Rivain is so fractured politically and culturally that the Kings/Queens of Rivain, as well as the Rivainy Chantry, have next to no power outside the capital. In effect the Seers do rule, that they theoretically owe allegiance to a "RULER" doesn't preclude them from effectively having most/all the power.
Wardens aren't a "society", they're a military group with in a society. And even at that they generally take precautions against mages by limiting the numbers they recruit. Though that seems to have been retconned [to disastrous effect] with Clarel and her seemingly numberless hordes of mages.
As stated above, Rivain is effectively ruled by mages despite having a muggle king/queen.
The Avvar, yes the Thane rules. The Shamans only counsel, guide and interpret the will of the gods. That last bit is key, how many superstitious barbarians do you think are prone to going against the "will of the gods" despite the fact that they're technically in charge? How many tribesmen will follow a Thane who considered accursed/rejected by the gods? The Thanes may rule, but the shamans still have a lot of power, to the point of effectively being able to rule if they choose so, given the whole communing with the objects of worship thing.
This seems based on the assumption that having mages have any kind of power in a society is a bad thing. The Rivaini and the Avvar seem happy enough, why are we trying to enforce something they clearly don't want or need?
Edit: I curse you all for getting me involved in this debate again.
This seems based on the assumption that having mages have any kind of power in a society is a bad thing. The Rivaini and the Avvar seem happy enough, why are we trying to enforce something they clearly don't want or need?
Edit: I curse you all for getting me involved in this debate again.
Because their mistake can splash in the others, like the Jaws of Hakkon almost had.
This seems based on the assumption that having mages have any kind of power in a society is a bad thing. The Rivaini and the Avvar seem happy enough, why are we trying to enforce something they clearly don't want or need?
Mages, as a group, having power in a society is bad. We've already addressed why in this very thread before. Having a society happily consider abominations as something no different than a hurricane or wildfire, doesn't actually make it good. It just means people have resigned themselves to putting up with it and effectively think it's out of their control.
Know which societies don't think abominations are just a fact of life, that think they can actually be managed and minimised and that actually are able to effectively do exactly that most of the time? Those societies not controlled by mages.
Mages, as a group, having power in a society is bad. We've already addressed why in this very thread before. Having a society happily consider abominations as something no different than a hurricane or wildfire, doesn't actually make it good. It just means people have resigned themselves to putting up with it and effectively think it's out of their control.
Know which societies don't think abominations are just a fact of life, that think they can actually be managed and minimised and that actually are able to effectively do exactly that most of the time? Those societies not controlled by mages.
Abominations? Such as what? Connor? Wynne? An mage could go an lifetime possessed by an spirit and no one would be the wiser. I'm not sure what kind of imaginary moral high ground you people follow, considering we have places such as Orlais, were people constantly lose their lives over the petty game, and no one seems to care. Yet the idea of an mage ruler is an calamity.
Because their mistake can splash in the others, like the Jaws of Hakkon almost had.
The Jaws weren't the fault of mages. But you're right, don't really think that gives us the right to enforce a system they don't want on them though.
Mages, as a group, having power in a society is bad. We've already addressed why in this very thread before. Having a society happily consider abominations as something no different than a hurricane or wildfire, doesn't actually make it good. It just means people have resigned themselves to putting up with it and effectively think it's out of their control.
Know which societies don't think abominations are just a fact of life, that think they can actually be managed and minimised and that actually are able to effectively do exactly that most of the time? Those societies not controlled by mages.
Or they're willing to pay the price for the benefits that magic can provide, you can't have everything for nothing. Like nuclear power there's always inevitable dangers, you make your peace with that and mitigate the dangers.
Are those the same societies that resulted in this?
Totally functional.
Abominations? Such as what? Connor? Wynne? An mage could go an lifetime possessed by an spirit and no one would be the wiser.
Given the Rivaini consider them on the level of natural disaster, I'd Connors as opposed to Wynnes, and given the Rivaini are fool enough to invite possession they're far more likely to happen.
I'm not sure what kind of imaginary moral high ground you people follow, considering we have places such as Orlais, were people constantly lose their lives over the petty game, and no one seems to care. Yet the idea of an mage ruler is an calamity.
Already addressed this just last page. Ignoring the answer, waiting a bit and then bringing the topic back up as if its some totally new insight doesn't fool anyone.
Are those the same societies that resulted in this?
Totally functional.
Notice how Uldred, even with out the Warden, was confined to the interior of the circle itself with an annulement army being sent for to deal with it, as opposed to say rampaging across the countryside causing natural disaster-levels of damage? It's a heck of a lot more functional than Rivain's attitude of "Sucks to be you, oh and here's your new Seer here's hoping she won't go bad like the last one."
And you ignore that all evidences points to the Magister bringing the Blight to the world, there was no mention of them before the seven ventured into the Black City or the fact they have been transformed into Darkspawn.
And they have almost destroyed the world with their mages, it doesnt matter if a mudane ordered them, if they were in the Circles it would have not happened.
The Grey Wardens are worse, their mages almost gave a army of demons to Corypheus. And now are you going to say it was a mudane? Because Corypheus is a mage, Erimond is a amge and even Clarel is a mage.
You can say all you like about the Avvars, but we only know 3 clans, Ths Stone-Bear, Jaws of Hakkon and Jaws of Hakon 2.0. 2 of those clan had their mages do things that would have devastated half of a country because of their magic. I dont condemm them, but they need to be put in a quarentine zone for things like Hakkon, not happen again.
And those societies failed to check their mages.
I'm not ignoring anything. There is evidence to suggest otherwise. Corypheus himself states that the "Golden City" was already black. The Blight existed independently of his actions. Murals by the ancient Elves suggest that they fought Darkspawn, long before The actions of the seven Magisters. The Red Lyrium in the Primeval Thaig proves that the Blight had a presence in Thedas before Tevinter.
It does matter that Mages were ALLIED with mundanes. The notion that Mages are alone responsible for everything bad that happens is ridiculous especially confounded with the fact that they were working in tandem with non-Magical allies.
The Grey Wardens, warrior and Mage alike, were tricked and manipulated by the mechanizations of a Darkspawn Magister of whom the few that even knew he existed thought he was dead and an immensely powerful Demon whose power no one could have predicted. The Mages were not the only Wardens performing the ritual the majority of the Order was and Clarel switches to the Inquisitor's side as soon as she realizes they are being deceived. You present this as if the Wardens were presenting a Demon Army to Corypheus willingly. You know full well that they were not.
The various clans that populate the Frostback Mountains share the common name "Avvar" because they share a common beliefs, practices and culture otherwise it would be Insert Name Clan 1 and Insert Name Clan 2. They are not nomadic and separated like the Dalish. The Avvar of Stone-Bear Hold are the first we meet in person but their methods are not unique to their clan. The lore for the Avvar regarding their spirits was established years ago and is not limited to one Clan but a universal definer attributed to an entire group...The Avvar.
Rivain is so fractured politically and culturally that the Kings/Queens of Rivain, as well as the Rivainy Chantry, have next to no power outside the capital. In effect the Seers do rule, that they theoretically owe allegiance to a "RULER" doesn't preclude them from effectively having most/all the power.
Wardens aren't a "society", they're a military group with in a society. And even at that they generally take precautions against mages by limiting the numbers they recruit. Though that seems to have been retconned [to disastrous effect] with Clarel and her seemingly numberless hordes of mages.
As stated above, Rivain is effectively ruled by mages despite having a muggle king/queen.
The Avvar, yes the Thane rules. The Shamans only counsel, guide and interpret the will of the gods. That last bit is key, how many superstitious barbarians do you think are prone to going against the "will of the gods" despite the fact that they're technically in charge? How many tribesmen will follow a Thane who considered accursed/rejected by the gods? The Thanes may rule, but the shamans still have a lot of power, to the point of effectively being able to rule if they choose so, given the whole communing with the objects of worship thing.
Seriously? I provide you with evidence that Rivaini Seers do not rule and you just dismiss it because it doesn't go along with your narrative????? Rivani Mages DO NOT rule. That is a fact. Rivain has a NON MAGE Queen. That is a fact. You can call the ocean polka dotted all you wish it will never be true.
Mages, as a group, having power in a society is bad. We've already addressed why in this very thread before. Having a society happily consider abominations as something no different than a hurricane or wildfire, doesn't actually make it good. It just means people have resigned themselves to dealing with it and effectively think it's out of their control.
Know which societies don't think abominations are just a fact of life and can actually be dealt with before they happen? Those not controlled by mages.
Abominations are rare. Even the Chantry acknowledges this. The Mages of the Avvar and Rivain have developed methods capable of removing unwanted Spirits from their hosts and the Spirits working with the Avvar ward off Demons making the possibility of Abominations even more remote.
A grand assumption there. We don't know how the "natural disasters"of Rivain are dealt with. If they ravaged the countryside I doubt the Rivaini people would be as ok with seers as they are.
Given the Rivaini consider them on the level of natural disaster, I'd Connors as opposed to Wynnes, and given the Rivaini are fool enough to invite possession they're far more likely to happen.
Already addressed this just last page. Ignoring the answer, waiting a bit and then bringing the topic back up as if its some totally new insight doesn't fool anyone.
Notice how Uldred, even with out the Warden, was confined to the interior of the circle itself with an annulement army being sent for to deal with it, as opposed to say rampaging across the countryside causing natural disaster-levels of damage? It's a heck of a lot more functional than Rivain's attitude of "Sucks to be you, oh and here's your new Seer here's hoping she won't go bad like the last one."
Mages did not create every disaster threatening the world. The Fade and Demons are natural phenomena of Thedas and would exist regardless of Mages. The Blight also exists independent of Mages and there is evidence to suggest that the Blight and perhaps even Darkspawn existed in Thedas long before the Magisters breached the Fade. But I sense that those facts will not sway you. If you insist on blaming those events on Mages then blame them on the individual responsible. Corypheus. Blaming every other Mage, even if they were born centuries later is grossly unfair.
Yes they did... Demons would be almost non-existant in thedas without mages (and less threatening) as there are even barely any incidents in series where non-mages damaged veil and allowed demon to come through.Blights are results of magisters power hunger a problem that could have been only caused by mage (or person like inquisitor but that is another matter) whether blight existed long before and was locked up in black city or magisters created blight doesn't matter what matters that they are one who unleashed it onto world in their power hunger. So your facts are irrelevant to the matter that pretty much as far only mages are responsible for all world threats and non-mages are in no position to cause world-threat ,same for magisters unleashing blight onto world.
Yes they did... Demons would be almost non-existant in thedas without mages (and less threatening) as there are even barely any incidents in series where non-mages damaged veil and allowed demon to come through.Blights are results of magisters power hunger a problem that could have been only caused by mage (or person like inquisitor but that is another matter) whether blight existed long before and was locked up in black city or magisters created blight doesn't matter what matters that they are one who unleashed it onto world in their power hunger. So your facts are irrelevant to the matter that pretty much as far only mages are responsible for all world threats and non-mages are in no position to cause world-threat ,same for magisters unleashing blight onto world.
A grand assumption there. We don't know how the "natural disasters"of Rivain are dealt with. If they ravaged the countryside I doubt the Rivaini people would be as ok with seers as they are.
You're also ignoring the fact that countless Templars, mages and apprentices are killed by the abominations that get unleashed in the Circle. Sending an annulment army is great and all but that doesn't provide comfort to the dozens of dead men, women and children.
That's nothing but an gigantic BS argument anyway. They say the possessed seers are natural disaster, wrecking havoc and etc. Then how come, there are templars in Rivain? One would think that templars, warriors trained to kill abominations, would be alarmed by mages wrecking havoc. But the true is that we never heard about it at all. Violence only started in Rivain when the Seekers came. Why? Because the seers are like Wynne, not Connor. If the Avvar can handle possession with little to no incident, I don't see why Rivain would be that different.
Demons can come through the Veil where there's violence or death or even just general misery, terror or despair. You don't need mages to get demons. In fact I would speculate that most demons who get through the Veil weren't brought across due to mages.
Again this is what i have said and again such cases are almost non-existant and much less threatening ,pretty much almost all cases of damaged veil in series are mages doing ,avoiding that mages can summon demon or pretty much become an abomnation what is even more doors for demons to enter Thedas.
Seriously? I provide you with evidence that Rivaini Seers do not rule and you just dismiss it because it doesn't go along with your narrative????? Rivani Mages DO NOT rule. That is a fact. Rivain has a NON MAGE Queen. That is a fact. You can call the ocean polka dotted all you wish it will never be true.
And I disproved your assertion by explaining that Rivain is a fractured society with a weak monarchy. In effect it DOES NOT RULE and HAS NEXT TO LITTLE POWER OUTSIDE THE CAPITAL, MEANING SEERS DO IN EFFECT RULE.
Duuuur I can bold/capslock too ![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
A grand assumption there. We don't know how the "natural disasters"of Rivain are dealt with. If they ravaged the countryside I doubt the Rivaini people would be as ok with seers as they are.
Actually we do know. Bioware used the words natural disaster to describe it for a reason. If it wasn't meant to be comparable to a natural disaster they would have compared it to something else, like a freak lightning strike, a passing hail storm, or a mildly unpleasant heat wave.
You're also ignoring the fact that countless Templars, mages and apprentices are killed by the abominations that get unleashed in the Circle. Sending an annulment army is great and all but that doesn't provide comfort to the dozens of dead men, women and children.
The point is there is less death and devastation than it were to occur outside of the circle. It contained a potential disaster which is exactly it's job.
That's nothing but an gigantic BS argument anyway. They say the possessed seers are natural disaster, wrecking havoc and etc. Then how come, there are templars in Rivain? One would think that templars, warriors trained to kill abominations, would be alarmed by mages wrecking havoc. But the true is that we never heard about it at all. Violence only started in Rivain when the Seekers came. Why? Because the seers are like Wynne, not Connor. If the Avvar can handle possession with little to no incident, I don't see why Rivain would be that different.
1) Yes because Bioware compared it to natural disasters, when what they really meant to say was slight inconvenience 
2) There are templars in Rivain, however the Chantry has almost no influence or power outside of Dairsmuid. Meaning they can be alarmed all they want and still not be able to do a thing about it.
That's nothing but an gigantic BS argument anyway. They say the possessed seers are natural disaster, wrecking havoc and etc. Then how come, there are templars in Rivain? One would think that templars, warriors trained to kill abominations, would be alarmed by mages wrecking havoc. But the true is that we never heard about it at all. Violence only started in Rivain when the Seekers came. Why? Because the seers are like Wynne, not Connor. If the Avvar can handle possession with little to no incident, I don't see why Rivain would be that different.
It could be that the Templars in Rivain are similar to those in Tevinter in that they are loyal to Rivain first, the Chantry second. According to the lore, the Chantry knew nothing about what was happening in Rivain beyond Dairsmuid, so that's why the Templars didn't do anything regarding the seers.
And now I bow out of this thread. Knowing who's been posting in here, it's probably best if I avoid this thread in the future.
A grand assumption there. We don't know how the "natural disasters"of Rivain are dealt with. If they ravaged the countryside I doubt the Rivaini people would be as ok with seers as they are.
You're also ignoring the fact that countless Templars, mages and apprentices are killed by the abominations that get unleashed in the Circle. Sending an annulment army is great and all but that doesn't provide comfort to the dozens of dead men, women and children.
Given that abominations are treated as just part and parcel of Rivain society, I imagine yhey react to them the same way people react to earthquakes or riots. Cultural indoctrination is a powerful thing, human societies have been ok with bloodshed on a regular basis on levels that would horrify modern people. See the Mesoamerican societies, slavery during the Roman Empire, the Crusades (and other religious conflict such as the 30yrs war or wars with the Ottomans) and so on.
Those casualties are contained to small area though, had Uldred been able to operate unchecked for the amount of time it would take to organize a templar response the devastation could have rivaled the Blight itself.
Mages, as a group, having power in a society is bad.
Too general. Even the Circle system requires some measure of power and political pull being allotted to the mages in order to function correctly.
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