1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Vit246]

The existence of the Seers in Rivain as a revered tradition more than implies that the Rivaini have been doing this symbiotic possession thing for a long time and they know what they are doing and it apparently works well enough. They're not stupid. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The existence of the Seers in Rivain as a revered tradition, more than implies that the Rivaini have been doing this symbiotic possession thing for a long time and they know what they are doing. They're not stupid.

Considering innocent people still die horribly and its dismissed as a fluke or accident excuse me while I laugh at that notion.

But your right, their not stupid.

Their corrupt, self entitled and weak which is worse

[thesuperdarkone2]

Funny how Vivienne forgets to mention how all circles got rid of mage rights and privileges that Vivienne boasts about as shown in Asunder

[MisterJB]

"One cannot unlearn a primal fear. Like fire or heights, it is not about prejudice. It is about survival.

I care for the witch hunts that will come. I care for the angry mobs who string up mages on gibbets for the vultures.

I care that my stupid brethren will kill and be killed by frightened people defending their families from monsters.

I will stand in opposition to that, whatever you may do."

 

This is a quote from Vivenne which illustrates her main concern and why she is one who takes the dialogue in directions not discussed before.

She praises the Circles but she is not Wynne. She acknowledges some Templars are horrible but she is not Anders.

Her main topic is the fact that mages are dangerous to people and people are dangerous to mages. She worries about how the world would function without a Circle which stands in contrasts to Anders or the mage rebellion who care about nothing but immediate freedom with naught a thought to lives lost now and in the future.

 

Her personality can be unpleasant which is probably why she receives half the hate she does. She can be condescending and lords her magic over others.

None of which changes the fact she has good point.

[MisterJB]

Funny how Vivienne forgets to mention how all circles got rid of mage rights and privileges that Vivienne boasts about as shown in Asunder

 

That proves her point.

Mages will hurt people and people, in turn, will hurt mages. Remove the Circle and these occurrances becomes more commonplace because more mages will interact with more people.

 

[MisterJB]

Chantry regulations and zealotry often leads to genocide, like the 15 or so annulments, or the Rivaini born Qunari who chose not to leave for Par Vollen, and the exalted march there resulted in a sundered veil and a chantry who denied it. 

The qunari are in a constant state of war against everyone else in the world. They are no different from Darkspawn in that regard and should be treated no differently.

There can be no middle term or negotation with qunari, only slaugther for they know only slaugther and forced conversion. In that, they are worse than darkspawn.

So, yes that was one of the few times where "kill them all" is the best, nay, only option.

 

It seems to me that half the time there are problems with magic, the Chantry is at the root of it. Mage desperation due to templar abuses and an order of Seekers refusing to actually address corruption in the Chantry and the templars, often as Cassandra discovers in the secret book, are actually a source of corruption, as mages are not treated as people or, depending on the circle, allowed to even form relationships with each other, and when they lash out at unjust treatment, the Chantry uses it as proof that the measures were justified in the first place. 

It's true that, irregardless of the frequency, some mages do become dangerous due to the Chantry.

However, would removing the Circles really improve things?

 

We must take into consideration the fact that, regardless of the why they are dangerous, without the Templars stopping them, all of the mages can be near innocent people whom they can harm. Not all of them will, of course, but those who will, whether through evil doing or just accidents, would have been prevented had they been in the Circles. Those few mages who becomes dangerous because of the Chantry are still, for the most part, within a Circle and thus not a danger to the innocents.

 

And then, of course, one can't help but wonder whether, without the Circles and Templars, the numbers of mages who believe their magic places them above others won't begin increasing.

Basically, pro-mages often accuse the Circle of instilling a sense of self-hate on the mages. However, is the opposite not also possible? That the Circles are what prevent Magister mentalities from being created? How many of the mages we consider to be good mages won't reveal themselves to be very different if fear of the Templars is suddenly no longer there?

 

 

Yes, they were allowing themselves to be possessed, but for all we know we have a bunch of women like Wynne or the Avaar in Jaws of Hakkon. 

 

Wynne and the Avaar Shamans alone are proof that the Chantry's approach is not actually the correct one. Their regulations are guided more on fear of the past and the potential for damage, justified potential mind you, but their heavy-handedness blinds them to alternate paths, ones that may very well be far better. 

 

"Proof" is a very objective word for a matter so very subjective.

There may be some merit to the Avaar ways but there is also much fault and many ways in which they are not applicable to the larger world.

For instance, we are told Rivains see Abominations as a natural disaster no different from an hurricane or earthquake. However, since Abominations are created due to the actions of two sentient beings and the fact that Seers do invite spirits thus opening themselves to possession, should there not be greater accountability like the Circle system provides?

 

And what of Anders where a spirit and a human corrupted each other?

 

Then, there is the fact that the Avaar and even the Seers often exist as small communities and thus their methods are difficult, if not impossible, to apply in nations numbering the million with multiple settlements of hundreds of thousands of people and with central authority.

 

Furthermore, the Seers rule traditional communities in Rivain. Being ruled by mages is one of the dangers of magic that the Circle seeks to prevent.

 

 

 

[GranfalloonMembr]

"One cannot unlearn a primal fear. Like fire or heights, it is not about prejudice. It is about survival.

I care for the witch hunts that will come. I care for the angry mobs who string up mages on gibbets for the vultures.

I care that my stupid brethren will kill and be killed by frightened people defending their families from monsters.

I will stand in opposition to that, whatever you may do."

 

 

All right JB, that quote right there? Perfectly illustrates what is wrong with Vivienne.

 

Which is not to say that she's wrong about the possibility of "normal" people responding to the indiscriminate fighting in the Hinterlands with renewed anti-mage sentiment. Like you say, she does make a good point here and there. Even I can admit that, much as I despise the ******.

 

But look at how she phrases it: "[M]y stupid brethren will kill and be killed by frightened people defending their families from monsters."

 

She is placing all the blame--all of it--on the rebelling mages.

 

This whole "fear of mages" thing reminds me of the "fear of mutants" thing that has been a staple of the X-Men comics for decades. And, much like in X-Men, there are people trying to find mutants whose powers are manifesting so that they can help those mutants learn how to control their powers and thus not be a threat to others or to themselves.

 

Here's a difference: Professor Xavier (as much of a jerk as he could be at times) never forced anybody to join any of his teams or to accept his teaching. He didn't need to, for one thing, because every mutant he discovered either voluntarily accepted (Cyclops) or had already learned to use their powers on their own and didn't need his help (Dazzler). The Templars do force everybody into a Circle, whether the individual warrants that restriction or not. Bethany was never a threat to anybody, for example, but they still force her into the Kirkwall Circle.

 

Here's another difference, specific to Vivienne: in the X-books, particularly during Claremont's run, we would see lots of persecution of mutants by ordinary humans. This was usually chalked up to prejudice, i.e. "They saw what Magneto did and they think all mutants are like that, which is stupid, but there you have it. So it's up to us to show them that they're wrong, by being heroes." But with Vivienne, when mages are persecuted, she blames it on the mages. The "stupid" mages. For being uppity, for not working within a system that had always been unfair to them, for daring to fight back in Kirkwall and then everywhere else.

 

I don't agree with the way Anders touched it off, but it's my opinion that the Mage Rebellion needed to happen, because mages weren't getting a fair shake and deserved better. Even in DA2, when you look at the various mages who resort to blood magic or who turn into abominations, what's usually the cause? The mages in question have been given a reason to fear, or to be angry, or to become desperate. There is one mage, during "The Last Straw", who only succumbs to temptation and turns into an abomination when she is surrounded by templars about to hack her to pieces. If mages were treated better, that wouldn't happen. Even Anders only went off the deep end after he spent years trying to make things better for mages without doing anything terrible and wound up nothing to show for it except lots of frustration. If Meredith hadn't been clamping down so hard, Anders never would have had reason--real or imagined--to do what he did. Not even with Justice/Vengeance trying to convince him.

 

I haven't finished the game, and I guess I'll need to do that really fast so that I don't get any more spoiled than I already am. But I'm going to say this: if Solas does something bad before it's all said and done (which I saw a hint of in an earlier post, and I hope I'm wrong about that because I really like Solas), it doesn't change the fact that Solas lived his entire life outside of a Circle, taught himself magic, is usually one of the most calm and restrained people I know, and has spent extremely long periods of time in the Fade without succumbing to possession. So whatever Solas does or doesn't do, up to this point he has been living proof that an apostate can live outside of a Circle without being a danger to others. So is Dorian, for that matter. Dorian, from all I have seen, has perfect control. I cannot imagine any circumstance in which Dorian would turn into an abomination or anything like that.

 

As somebody pointed out earlier, when Vivienne says that mages should be grateful for the power they have, it's really ridiculous. Especially when, in what is the very same conversation if I'm not mistaken, she talks about how most mages' powers manifest when they accidentally set people on fire or something--why the hell should a mage be grateful for that "gift"? Particularly when it results in templars coming to drag them away from their families and everybody they know in chains (literally in chains, in the case of Anders), and when they end up imprisoned for the next several years at least?

 

Continuing the X-Men comparison, there are mutants who--like mages--need to be careful they don't kill somebody by mistake, even after they get a handle on their powers. Rogue immediately comes to mind, and there were some stories back in the day about how Storm needed to avoid getting really angry since her emotional state was reflected by the weather outside. But neither of those characters had "handlers" like the templars, ready to put them down at the first sign of trouble. Nor should they have.

[leaguer of one]

The qunari are in a constant state of war against everyone else in the world. They are no different from Darkspawn in that regard and should be treated no differently.

There can be no middle term or negotation with qunari, only slaugther for they know only slaugther and forced conversion. In that, they are worse than darkspawn.

So, yes that was one of the few times where "kill them all" is the best, nay, only option.

 

 

Wrong. The only thing we can do is make them understand they can't do things by force. The qunari at least think.

[Kakistos_]

That proves her point.

Mages will hurt people and people, in turn, will hurt mages. Remove the Circle and these occurrances becomes more commonplace because more mages will interact with more people.

People hurt people. Human, Dwarf, Elf, Mage, it makes no difference. Remember the whole Civil War during the Blight thing? Celene's "cleansing" of the Alienage? The Exalted Marches that destroyed the Elves homeland? Twice.

[Deztyn]

Wrong. The only thing we can do is make them understand they can't do things by force. The qunari at least think.

Sure.

And as soon as they think something heretical like, "Maybe this Qun thing is the wrong way to live" and can't be re-educated and shown the error of their ways, it's time to break out the Qamek.

Individuals like Bull who spend a significant amount of time away from the rest might have a chance to see the value in other ways of living, but as a group they are too heavily indoctrinated to come to that conclusion on their own.

The only chance they have of changing as a culture is to prove that their way of living is wrong on such a scale that it effects the majority of their people at the same time. Which necessitates beating them into submission, scattering them to the four corners of Thedas, and perhaps, if we're feeling merciful, grant them tiny little corners of good Andrastian cities where they can properly learn to embrace The Chant and repent for their sins.

[ShadowLordXII]

Sure.

And as soon as they think something heretical like, "Maybe this Qun thing is the wrong way to live" and can't be re-educated and shown the error of their ways, it's time to break out the Qamek.

Individuals like Bull who spend a significant amount of time away from the rest might have a chance to see the value in other ways of living, but as a group they are too heavily indoctrinated to come to that conclusion on their own.

The only chance they have of changing as a culture is to prove that their way of living is wrong on such a scale that it effects the majority of their people at the same time. Which necessitates beating them into submission, scattering them to the four corners of Thedas, and perhaps, if we're feeling merciful, grant them tiny little corners of good Andrastian cities where they can properly learn to embrace The Chant and repent for their sins.

 

Because the Chant doesn't have any inherent problems.

 

Now elves and mages will strongly disagree since the Chant encourages people to hate and oppress them. But who cares about them? They're not human after all.

[Shadow Quickpaw]

"I have seen someone who says the right words but with no spirit behind them."

 

Vivienne is, ironically, exactly the sort of mage the circles were designed to PREVENT. Look at how you first meet her. She uses her powers to bully one of her guests (and kills him if you want her too.) Let me say that again: SHE KILLS SOMEONE WITH HER POWERS JUST BECAUSE HE WAS BEING RUDE. And she has the gall to talk about how all mages are a danger.

 

Madame De Fur is, first and foremost, a politician. She will say whatever she thinks she has to in order to maintain her level of comfort and influence; hell. She's about two steps away from becoming a magister herself. Bottom line: The Chantry and Circle of Magi are systems in which she had power. Without them she has nothing, so she wants them back.

 

The "primal fears" she talks her big talk about are nothing that are unique to magic: Fire, ice, storms. She also acts as if it is the mages' responsibility to teach people not to fear. The problem is, the current theocracies of Thedas teach that MAGIC, ITSELF is a sin and a sign of the Maker's hatred. Ergo, according to the Chantry and the HEAVILY abridged "Chant of Light" the fact of a mage's existence makes them corrupt and subhuman.

 

She has grown up with a specific set of cultural and societal norms, and cannot imagine any other way of thinking (much like a Qunari).

[Deztyn]

Because the Chant doesn't have any inherent problems.

Now elves and mages will strongly disagree since the Chant encourages people to hate and oppress them. But who cares about them? They're not human after all.

"all who walk in the sight of the Maker are one."

Nothing wrong with elves, so long as they're not heathens who embrace false gods. Magic is, of course, a gift from the Maker that needs to be used responsibly without causing harm to the innocent. As Vivienne understands.

(Do people actually read what we know about The Chant before they criticize it? All signs point to no.)

[daveliam]

Vivienne only kills that guy if the Inquisitor expressly tells her to do so.  If left up to her own, she releases him. 

 

Is it an abuse of power?  Perhaps.  But if you are upset that she kills that guy over an insult, then maybe your Inquisitor shouldn't have ordered her to kill that guy over an insult.

[Deztyn]

Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.

Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."

Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.

Racist d-bag.

She humiliated him.

The Inquisitor makes it murder.

[X Equestris]

Because the Chant doesn't have any inherent problems.
 
Now elves and mages will strongly disagree since the Chant encourages people to hate and oppress them. But who cares about them? They're not human after all.

The Chant itself doesn't encourage such things. In fact, it tends towards the opposite. It's people within the Chantry twisting things to advance their own agenda of hatred that are the problem.

[MisterJB]

Here's a difference: Professor Xavier (as much of a jerk as he could be at times) never forced anybody to join any of his teams or to accept his teaching. He didn't need to, for one thing, because every mutant he discovered either voluntarily accepted (Cyclops) or had already learned to use their powers on their own and didn't need his help (Dazzler). The Templars do force everybody into a Circle, whether the individual warrants that restriction or not. Bethany was never a threat to anybody, for example, but they still force her into the Kirkwall Circle.

Someone new to argue with and yet, I can already see we will not agree with each other.

 

In this portion of your post, you show how you disagree with the Circle and its most basic policies on principle. Mages should not be forced into them and locked there for life.

Myself, and Vivienne, believe this is necessary for the good of both normals and mages. It may or may not be right but it is necessary and that makes it acceptable.

Chances are you will never agree with me and I will never agree with you. Naturally, you dislike Vivienne whereas I find myself agreeing with almost everything she says.

  

 

Here's another difference, specific to Vivienne: in the X-books, particularly during Claremont's run, we would see lots of persecution of mutants by ordinary humans. This was usually chalked up to prejudice, i.e. "They saw what Magneto did and they think all mutants are like that, which is stupid, but there you have it. So it's up to us to show them that they're wrong, by being heroes." But with Vivienne, when mages are persecuted, she blames it on the mages. The "stupid" mages. For being uppity, for not working within a system that had always been unfair to them, for daring to fight back in Kirkwall and then everywhere else.

She is blaming the mages for being stupid. For forgetting people have very good reasons to be afraid of mages, for bringing harm to others and to themselves and for assuming that they are the only ones in the world who suffer.

You say that the system is unfair. I say that it protected the people from the mages and the mages from people while also providing them with a standard of living above the majority of Thedosians, most of which can't read.

Luxurious accomodations, free food, fine clothes, education, etc. The Circle wasn't perfect but compared to the life of the average Thedosian? And when the alternative is having mages walk around the defenseless population?
It was and is a good system. The rebel mages didn't even bother to present an alternative before they started a war.

 

Furthermore, don't you think you are behaving in the same way as Vivienne right now?

You claim that she "blames the mages for daring to fight back" and yet, both the Circle and the "persecution of mages" are normal people fighting back. The Chantry and the Circle did not originate in a vaccum.

 

 

 

I don't agree with the way Anders touched it off, but it's my opinion that the Mage Rebellion needed to happen, because mages weren't getting a fair shake and deserved better.

Why is it that the freedom of mages is more important than the safety of non-mages?

I guess they are just nobodies, not a cool class that is fun to play with but does that make them so worthless?

 

 

 

Even in DA2, when you look at the various mages who resort to blood magic or who turn into abominations, what's usually the cause? The mages in question have been given a reason to fear, or to be angry, or to become desperate.

Precisely, the mage has been given a reason to fear or be angry or become desperate.

And Templars are not the sole source of desperation in the world, are they? To be free means to be open to starvation, to cold, to exploitation, to be threatened and harmed.

Connor's father got sick and he destroyed and entire village. Should normal people really fear for their lives whenever a mage suffers?

 

 

 

If mages were treated better, that wouldn't happen.

 

There are two ways I can answer to this point. I will post both.

 

a) Let's assume that you are right. Let's say that under the Circle system, 20 out of 100 mages become Abominations. And should they be free, it will be 10 out of 100.

However, under the Circle, 18 of those 20 will become Abominations within the Circle, leaving only 2 who are a threat to innocents.

Should there be no Circle, all 10 will be.

 

Now, what if you are wrong? As I said previously, there an infinite numbers of ways a free person can suffer. How many mages will fall victim to situations that have nothing to do with the Templars?
And of those mages who do not become Abominations, how many will become convinced their magic places them above others and use it to lord over others or harm them?

 

 

 

Even Anders only went off the deep end after he spent years trying to make things better for mages without doing anything terrible

His very first mission is about smuggling a mage out of the Gallows and kill anyone who gets in the way. And he continues to do that for the entirety of DA2. You may be ok with that but I am not.

Oh, and there was that time he killed a mage girl and tried to convince her parents the Templars had done it.

 

 

 

So whatever Solas does or doesn't do, up to this point he has been living proof that an apostate can live outside of a Circle without being a danger to others

Solas is a not a mage.

 

 

 

So is Dorian, for that matter. Dorian, from all I have seen, has perfect control. I cannot imagine any circumstance in which Dorian would turn into an abomination or anything like that.

The Circle is not just about preventing magical incidents. It also prevents mages from ruling over normal people again.

Basically, Dorian.

 

 

As somebody pointed out earlier, when Vivienne says that mages should be grateful for the power they have, it's really ridiculous. Especially when, in what is the very same conversation if I'm not mistaken, she talks about how most mages' powers manifest when they accidentally set people on fire or something--why the hell should a mage be grateful for that "gift"?

Because mages are born with the ability to shape reality at will. They have a tremendous advantage over normal people.

And those against the Circle want to give them EVEN MORE power.

 

[MisterJB]

The Chant itself doesn't encourage such things. In fact, it tends towards the opposite. It's people within the Chantry twisting things to advance their own agenda of hatred that are the problem.

Or just trying to have a stable society.

"All men are the work of our Maker's hands

From the highest kings to the lowest slaves.

He who brings harm without provocation

to the least of His children

Is hated and accursed by the Maker."

 

Is a very nice sentiment but it doesn't really apply to the real world.

[ShadowLordXII]

"all who walk in the sight of the Maker are one."

Nothing wrong with elves, so long as they're not heathens who embrace false gods. Magic is, of course, a gift from the Maker that needs to be used responsibly without causing harm to the innocent. As Vivienne understands.

(Do people actually read what we know about The Chant before they criticize it? All signs point to no.)

 

Heathens? Considering recent information, how do we know that the Maker isn't a false god? We at least now have prove that the elven pantheon and the tevinter old gods did exist in some form or another. Perhaps they weren't "gods", but there's a basis for their existence and the faiths surrounding them. Where's the proof of the Maker's existence?

 

There's the teaching and then there's practice. In practice, elves are oppressed and stripped of their own culture with the Chantry saying that it's okay to do so while the most significant contribution of the elves towards Andrastian Faith via Shartan and his followers is considered a dissonant verse due to a war that Orlais and the Chantry helped to start.

 

No one's denying that magic is dangerous, but the Chantry perpetuated the problem rather than helping by teaching that mages are walking time bombs that should be feared. That's pressure which will help the mages already under enough stress right? No...no it does not help.

 

That's where Vivienne is wrong. She lays the majority of blame for the war on her fellow mages rather than acknowledging that the war was a consequence of a systematic failure which many others have. She even goes as far as to call them children for daring to stand up for themselves. She's right about Anders and how his actions were self-defeating for the mage cause, but beyond that...I'm not holding her perspective any higher than it needs to be.

 

Hence why I personally say that we should be able to just let the Chantry burn. But that won't happen...sadly...

[Master Warder Z_]

 Where's the proof of the Maker's existence?

 

Ask Bioware to change their stance on that issue then.

[MisterJB]

 

There are always only two exceptions to the Circle.

Morrigan and Kieran. They can do whatever they want, I don't care. Don't touch my family.

[Dean_the_Young]

The one I've heard so far started out with Vivienne saying that the 

Spoiler

Grey Warden

mages lived outside the supervision of the templars and the Circle and, oh hey, look at how that turned out!

 

It's another reason I hate her so much. That's a low blow since it references recent traumatic events,

How is referencing recent events a low blow if it's accurate? Trauma doesn't negate truth.
 

 

 

and it's also a dumb argument since those mages lived outside of Circle and templar supervision for decades without all turning into abominations or trying to conquer all of Thedas or whatever.

 

 

So what you're saying is those mages couldn't be trusted to live a lifetime of not turning into abominations or trying to conquer all of Thedas or whatever? Only some decades, at best?

 

That's, ahem, a very compelling argument for not leaving them free and unrestricted all their lives, considering that after a few good decades they nearly sacked southern Thedas.

[GranfalloonMembr]

Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.

Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."

Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.

Racist d-bag.

She humiliated him.

The Inquisitor makes it murder.

 

She was insulted by what he said, so she manipulated him into initiating a confrontation wherein something bad would happen to him, and then gave the Inquisitor the option of any punishment, including murder.

 

She could have said no to killing him.

 

 

 

Why is it that the freedom of mages is more important than the safety of non-mages?

 

 

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

 

He who would sacrifice somebody else's freedom for their own security definitely deserves neither.

 

I will not waste time talking to anybody who believes otherwise, as you appear to.

[The Baconer]

Naturally, you dislike Vivienne whereas I find myself agreeing with almost everything she says.

 

Would you make her Divine? :>

[Dean_the_Young]

Heathens? Considering recent information, how do we know that the Maker isn't a false god? We at least now have prove that the elven pantheon and the tevinter old gods did exist in some form or another. Perhaps they weren't "gods", but there's a basis for their existence and the faiths surrounding them. Where's the proof of the Maker's existence?

 

In the Devs words- Faith.

 

In series- 'our gods are better than yours.' Even if the Makes is nothing- well, the Old Gods and Elven Creators still fell to less than that.

 

 

 

 

There's the teaching and then there's practice. In practice, elves are oppressed and stripped of their own culture with the Chantry saying that it's okay to do so while the most significant contribution of the elves towards Andrastian Faith via Shartan and his followers is considered a dissonant verse due to a war that Orlais and the Chantry helped to start.

 

 

 

If by 'helped start' you mean 'the Dales massacred a town for having stupid sexy Chantry girls.'

 

Which truly is a great reason to go to war- but the resultant conflict was as much a secular grudge match the Chantry got later tied into as anything else.

 

 

 

 

 

No one's denying that magic is dangerous, but the Chantry perpetuated the problem rather than helping by teaching that mages are walking time bombs that should be feared. That's pressure which will help the mages already under enough stress right? No...no it does not help.

 

 

Mages are bombs that can go off at unpredictable times with or without stress- and that stress exists independent of the Chantry. It always has.

 

Saying the Chantry perpetuates the problem of mage volatility is like saying the Chantry perpetuates the seasons.
 

 

 

That's where Vivienne is wrong. She lays the majority of blame for the war on her fellow mages rather than acknowledging that the war was a consequence of a systematic failure which many others have. She even goes as far as to call them children for daring to stand up for themselves. She's right about Anders and how his actions were self-defeating for the mage cause, but beyond that...I'm not holding her perspective any higher than it needs to be.

 

 

Perhaps if you accurately reflected her perspective and reasons, rather than straw manned them, you'd find more need.

 

 

 

Hence why I personally say that we should be able to just let the Chantry burn. But that won't happen...sadly...

 

 

 

Yes, because clearly Inquisition showed that a lack of Chantry made everything better...