1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

It's a better life than most of Thedas' peasant population, who don't live in palaces (or even clean, well maintained former prisons), are forced to work without owning or profiting from the fruits of their labors, and have neither the time nor the resources to pursue education, hobbies or any of the various other luxuries mages take for granted.  All while having even less legal protection from abuse than the mages.  At least when someone like Alrik is a horrible person, he has to hide it from the people in charge.

And the rape, murder, other abuses, being made tranquil. And do you REALLY think Alrik was actually hiding anything from Meredith? Do you honestly believe she didn't know? Oh she didn't agree with his plan. Publicly. But the idea she didn't know the kind of abuses that were going on is ludicrous. The woman was a control freak of the first order.

Legal protections are great, when they work, which they didn't in the Circles. After all, who are the templars going to believe? A mage or one of their own? There's no independent review, no way to complain, no neutral party to adjudicate... Mages are close to being serfs, except that serfs can have families, can have children. Mages don't get that option.

[Ariella]

And its have a motive to be a cage, mages have almost destroyed the world countless times, entire villages wipped, blood magic sacrifices, etc. They need to be watched.

Countless times? We're told seven mages went into the Fade and started the Blight. Seven mages. Not all mages, just seven. So we have blood guilt? Blaming every person ever of a crime... Gee, where have I heard that before.

We've had the seven magisters and what? Up until the rebellion when did mages almost destroy the world?

Mages need education, need training in their powers, but they DON'T need to be locked up in a prison.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You're talking about a group of people with no military training against one of the best armed forces in Thedas, one they have a good reason to fear, considering they'd been (in their minds) imprisoned by the Templars. I'd be terrified too. Add to that the fact they believe that everyone in Thedas thinks they killed the Divine. This was their last stand.


You don't imprison a person based on what they might do, and the truth is that the slippery slope can go the other way. We've seen it before.

St. Augustine of Hippo called for the Jews to be an eternal "witness people" to be allowed to survive but not thrive. What came after was well... we all know the stories.

Yes, I realize that it's not a one to one, but the basic idea is the same. How long does it take before someone starts asking "why are we bothering to keep them alive?"

I'm not arguing that mages need training. I'd think a more "guild" style Circle would work, but the idea that they have to be completely isolated without lives... It just exacerbates the problem the Chantry is trying to prevent. Mages have no stake in the world, and have no real idea what it's like to live IN the world. So they're willing to commit to insane and stupid risks because they have nothing to lose and think everything will be rosy on the outside.

If they weren't capable of rebelling intelligently, they should not have rebelled. And if they had no acceptable option but rebellion, Fiona was not an acceptable leader.

 

And the comparison you're drawing with Jewish people isn't merely "not one to one." Mages are capable of throwing fireballs and lightning, and my Jewish friends assure me only trained Mossad agents can do that. If mages are feared, they're also necessary, unless you think Thedas cares to handle the qunari, the darkspawn, and the Tevinter without them. If Jewish people had any purpose in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, it was because they were forced into money-lending, and they occasionally had that (and the money) taken from them. The mages cannot be discarded, because if you take the magic from a mage you don't have magic that can be put into someone else. You have a Tranquil.

 

The Circle I have in mind would be like the ones that allowed Vivienne to do what she did, unless you care to argue she had no stake in the world. Of course, I'd hope the Templars would have more brains than to allow someone with no willpower, and who they're pretty sure literally couldn't pass the Harrowing to save his life, into Val Royeaux's court. Since, you know, my main argument for the Circles isn't purposeful abuse of magic.

 

Mages need education, need training in their powers, but they DON'T need to be locked up in a prison.

How about a quarantine?

[leaguer of one]

 

 

 

Given the Rivaini consider them on the level of natural disaster, I'd Connors as opposed to Wynnes, and given the Rivaini are fool enough to invite possession they're far more likely to happen.

 

 

Already addressed this just last page. Ignoring the answer, waiting a bit and then bringing the topic back up as if its some totally new insight doesn't fool anyone.

 

 

Notice how Uldred, even with out the Warden, was confined to the interior of the circle itself with an annulement army being sent for to deal with it, as opposed to say rampaging across the countryside causing natural disaster-levels of damage? It's a heck of a lot more functional than Rivain's attitude of "Sucks to be you, oh and here's your new Seer here's hoping she won't go bad like the last one." 

 

Sorry but Riviain mage arn't these mages. Jaw of hakkon shows that most of the issues of most possessions are bs. Understand what you're dealing with and learning to control it is better then saying in ignorance of it. Every Avvar mage at one point were possessed and got out of it and no innocent deaths happen. And all of thedus never knew of this because of arrogance and a kill first  policy that does not fallow their understanding. Hell, I'm betting the mages of Revain knew all this all read and the templers just over reacted to it.

 

As for free mage, there was more issues then possession on hand in the future.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Every Avvar mage at one point were possessed and got out of it and no innocent deaths happen.

That's an extraordinary claim, and doesn't fit well with this setting's general tone. Unless it's directly from WoT (and explicitly states "no innocent deaths except for the occasional weak mage dying in his sleep") I'm inclined to disbelieve it.

[leaguer of one]

And it need to be prevented with a better supervision on the templars, still does not excuse the mages for what they did in the Hinterlands. If they betrayed their own word, how can you trust them to no screw again in the future?

 

Its to prove that if they didnt started the war, they wouldnt be hunted and all those deaths in the war could have been prevented.

 

And its have a motive to be a cage, mages have almost destroyed the world countless times, entire villages wipped, blood magic sacrifices, etc. They need to be watched.

 

And they have art and music, they can spend time with their friends, with permission get married, they can choose what fraternitie they will join, etc. In fact they have way more choice than a peasant will ever have in his or her life.

What happen in the hinterland is an issue of people who don't know what to do with freedom and the will and ignorance to do anything for it. It's not an issue that they were mages, it's an issue they are ignorant of the outside world. These mages as people aren't worth saving but furture mages who come from them are worth it and the freedom they are allowed. Ironically, anything in the hinterland is a result of the lake of freedom they never had for years.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What happen in the hinterland is an issue of people who don't know what to do with freedom and the will and ignorance to do anything for it. It's not an issue that they were mages, it's an issue they are ignorant of the outside world. These mages as people aren't worth saving but furture mages who come from them are worth it and the freedom they are allowed. Ironically, anything in the hinterland is a result of the lake of freedom they never had for years.

Do you think the fact that they were mages mitigated the damage?

[Boost32]

Countless times? We're told seven mages went into the Fade and started the Blight. Seven mages. Not all mages, just seven. So we have blood guilt? Blaming every person ever of a crime... Gee, where have I heard that before.We've had the seven magisters and what? Up until the rebellion when did mages almost destroy the world?Mages need education, need training in their powers, but they DON'T need to be locked up in a prison.

Blight, Breach, Demon army, Possessed Dragon, Aurelian Titus' invention, Time Magic, etc.
Those mages were in the Circle, if they did something stupid it would be contained, when they were free their stupid acts affected a lot of people.
They arent in prisons, they are in quarentine. A place, where because of their dangerous condition, people are segregated of the rest society. And the rebellion proved to Thedas that the majority of the mages cannot be allowed to stay away from the Circle.

[leaguer of one]

That's an extraordinary claim, and doesn't fit well with this setting's general tone. Unless it's directly from WoT (and explicitly states "no innocent deaths") I'm inclined to disbelieve it.

Please, Wot is written based off the perspective of a character writing the book. It's will only covers what the character knows. If we get the info from the Avvar that it's the case then that's the case. Not there is no fear of mages among them nor spirits. Nor are they any claim of destroyed strong holds. The avvar life is also the unchanged picture of early human civilization life. Sorry, but if the Avvar are currently not having possession issue now after 1000's of issue then it clear there are none. Ignorance is the issue, not the mages.

[Boost32]

What happen in the hinterland is an issue of people who don't know what to do with freedom and the will and ignorance to do anything for it. It's not an issue that they were mages, it's an issue they are ignorant of the outside world. These mages as people aren't worth saving but furture mages who come from them are worth it and the freedom they are allowed. Ironically, anything in the hinterland is a result of the lake of freedom they never had for years.

Its a result of dangerous people being allowed to do whatever they please without any supervision. They failed to uphold their promises, it only proved that the majority of the mages should stay in the Circles.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Please, Wot is written based off the perspective of a character writing the book. It's will only covers what the character knows. If we get the info from the Avvar that it's the case then that's the case. Not there is no fear of mages among them nor spirits. Nor are they any claim of destroyed strong holds. The avvar life is also the unchanged picture of early human civilization life. Sorry, but if the Avvar are currently not having possession issue now after 1000's of issue then it clear there are none. Ignorance is the issue, not the mages.

A: WoT is supposed to be actual canon, rather than the PoV of any one character.

B: If we dismiss point A, I still trust Genitivi slightly more than I trust the Avvar, since while he is of the Chantry he doesn't let them tell him what he can and can't write. If his knowledge isn't absolute, it is that of a disinterested spectator who doesn't let cultural biases limit what he says.

C: Absence of evidence is absence of evidence, but its strength depends on how strongly you'd expect to see evidence if the thing you're looking to prove was there. I don't think we'd expect to see the things you mention given how little exposure we've had to the Avvar.

[Boost32]

Please, Wot is written based off the perspective of a character writing the book. It's will only covers what the character knows. If we get the info from the Avvar that it's the case then that's the case. Not there is no fear of mages among them nor spirits. Nor are they any claim of destroyed strong holds. The avvar life is also the unchanged picture of early human civilization life. Sorry, but if the Avvar are currently not having possession issue now after 1000's of issue then it clear there are none. Ignorance is the issue, not the mages.

We only know 3 Avvar clans, the Stone-bear, the Jaws of Hakkon and the Jaws of Hakkon 2.0. Look what 2 of those clans did, a powerful spirit inside a frost dragon. As you can see the Avvars are perfect example of how society with free mages can work!

[leaguer of one]

Do you think the fact that they were mages mitigated the damage?

I understand that. Nothing I said meant they are blameless. What I said was what they did is a symptom of the issues of the system.  Looking groups of people from when they are young, mage or not, is just going to make them ignorant of how to deal with the outside world. Everything in the hinterland is a result of them. All they did was make the mages into self riotous as holes who don't know how the world works. Both side have equal cases. The templers don't know how peoples emotion and push authority first in mass, which makes more problems and the mages can't understand how people of the outside feel and can't think beyond themselves.

 

All this is cause by how the circle work.

[leaguer of one]

Its a result of dangerous people being allowed to do whatever they please without any supervision. They failed to uphold their promises, it only proved that the majority of the mages should stay in the Circles.

I don't see this with the Avvar or any other culture with free mages. It's more of the case the mages of the circle are raised ignorant. The circle will just make the issue worse.

[Boost32]

I don't see this with the Avvar or any other culture with free mages. It's more of the case the mages of the circle are raised ignorant. The circle will just make the issue worse.

Yeah, because Possessed dragon and Sky Horrors are fine.

[Master Warder Z_]

Just imagine those poor miners in the bone pit having to deal with a possessed high dragon

[leaguer of one]

A: WoT is supposed to be actual canon, rather than the PoV of any one character.

B: If we dismiss point A, I still trust Genitivi slightly more than I trust the Avvar, since while he is of the Chantry he doesn't let them tell him what he can and can't write. If his knowledge isn't absolute, it is that of a disinterested spectator who doesn't let cultural biases limit what he says.

C: Absence of evidence is absence of evidence, but its strength depends on how strongly you'd expect to see evidence if the thing you're looking to prove was there. I don't think we'd expect to see the things you mention given how little exposure we've had to the Avvar.

a.Nope, Wot is written form the perspective of Brother Ferdinand Genitivi.

B. Also, it matters not if he is nuetral or not. He has to first know of the events and it's results. He can't know everything. Thus the Wot can't have everything.

 

C. Please don't use that point. Using it in the wrong place is just ignorant. It's and argument of infinite occurrences in time vs limited knowledge. If we have a control then the issue becomes mute. And we have a control, the Avvar society as it is now. If it happen it would be noted. If it happen and was never solved we would see the results. It's impossible for it to happen and not know because the entire Avvar culture is in one area of the world...In the mountains of mount frostback and it's eve. The environment is too enclosed for things to happen and other hold to not no about it or see the effect from past holds.

[TK514]

And the rape, murder, other abuses, being made tranquil. And do you REALLY think Alrik was actually hiding anything from Meredith? Do you honestly believe she didn't know? Oh she didn't agree with his plan. Publicly. But the idea she didn't know the kind of abuses that were going on is ludicrous. The woman was a control freak of the first order.

Legal protections are great, when they work, which they didn't in the Circles. After all, who are the templars going to believe? A mage or one of their own? There's no independent review, no way to complain, no neutral party to adjudicate... Mages are close to being serfs, except that serfs can have families, can have children. Mages don't get that option.

Yes, I'm sure the note Alrik wrote to his templar telling them not to go to Meredith was just a big joke.  He's such a kidder.

And Karras wasn't really threatening Alain regarding their private time.  Certainly not.

 

And that young woman in the Denerim market, she was just kidding when she said that the nobility had the legal right to do anything they wanted with her.  She must have come to Ferelden for the mild summers.

[TK514]

a.Nope, Wot is written form the perspective of Brother Ferdinand Genitivi.

Wrong, the intro to the book itself specifically says that, save the sidebars that have attribution, the main text is objective.  Given that this is written and signed by the lead dev, I'd say it is authoritative.

[Master Warder Z_]

Honestly she should have been flattered: Knights of the Empire can get whoever they wanted- unwanted advances aside its sort of complimentary.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah, because Possessed dragon and Sky Horrors are fine.

The sky Horrors was never freed and about causing harm unless to effect the alter and Hakkon was not something that happen at random. The issue you're bringing up with possession is that it can happen randomly and is uncontrollable. That not the case with the Avvar because they show that not only do they don't become possessed randomly but they can weaponize it.

 

It's it's the weaponization of possession that's an entire different argument. This argument is about possession that can happen at random with out the mages control.

[leaguer of one]

Wrong, the intro to the book itself specifically says that, save the sidebars that have attribution, the main text is objective.  Given that this is written and signed by the lead dev, I'd say it is authoritative.

I did not say it was not objective. I said it was written in the pov of a character. It's does not mean what the character say can't be believed. It mean there is a limit to how much the character knows about to write about.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

C. Please don't use that point. Using it in the wrong place is just ignorant. It's and argument of infinite occurrences in time vs limited knowledge. If we have a control then the issue becomes mute. And we have a control, the Avvar society as it is now. If it happen it would be noted. If it happen and was never solved we would see the results. It's impossible for it to happen and not know because the entire Avvar culture is in one area of the world...In the mountains of mount frostback and it's eve. The environment is too enclosed for things to happen and other hold to not no about it or see the effect from past holds.

I'm uncertain what this has to do with whether or not we'd be told that problems (apart from the one we have to solve) arise.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm uncertain what this has to do with whether or not we'd be told.

I'd honestly be shocked shocked if we weren't.

[leaguer of one]

I'm uncertain what this has to do with whether or not we'd be told.

Why would we? If it happen their would be signs of if it was unsolved. If it happen and was solved the Avvar are too prideful to not have a ballad about the hero who solved it. The Avvar history is straight up about heros doing epic things.