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[Boost32]

The sky Horrors was never freed and about causing harm unless to effect the alter and Hakkon was not something that happen at random. The issue you're bringing up with possession is that it can happen randomly and is uncontrollable. That not the case with the Avvar because they show that not only do they don't become possessed randomly but they can weaponize it.
 
It's it's the weaponization of possession that's an entire different argument. This argument is about possession that can happen at random with out the mages control.

Because the Sky Horror is just having fun with his friend spirit right? Its a clear example of how Avvars mages cant be possessed, I mean just look at his nice smile

Spoiler

This argument is how letting people with dangerous powers do whatever they want without any kind of supervision. If they can weaponize it, they should be watched and that kind of spell should be banned.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'd honestly be shocked shocked if we weren't.

Took me a second to get it.

 

Why would we? If it happen their would be signs of if it was unsolved. If it happen and was solved the Avvar are too prideful to not have a ballad about the hero who solved it. The Avvar history is straight up about heros doing epic things.

Are we sure we know all their songs? Or at least enough of these songs (by percent and not by total number of songs we know) that the absence of this type of song is noteworthy?

[leaguer of one]

Because the Sky Horror is just having fun with his friend spirit right? Its a clear example of how Avvars mages cant be possessed, I mean just look at his nice smile

Spoiler

This argument is how letting people with dangerous powers do whatever they want without any kind of supervision. If they can weaponize it, they should be watched and that kind of spell should be banned.

Missing the point here. It's not that they don't get possessed. In fact all of them do to learn magic. It's that they can C O N T R O L  it.

 Sure the sky horror is dangerous....Is it about attacking people? Nope.

 

An possessing has nothing to do with letting people do what they want with magic.  

 

Ironically, any issue of weaponization of magic will be with the state being they can, with mages freed, turn mages with their magic into super weapons.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

Are we sure we know all their songs? Or at least enough of these songs (by percent and not by total number of songs we know) that the absence of this type of song is noteworthy?

The fact that all the hinterland lore is about one Avvar mage does not show a point. And even more ironically that all the Avvar know it's about a mage outsider though it was about an axe wielding worrier when it was unsaid does have a point?

[Master Warder Z_]

Took me a second to get it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The fact that all the hinterland lore is about one Avvar mage does not show a point. And even more ironically that all the Avvar know it's about a mage outsider though it was about an axe wielding worrier when it was unsaid does have a point?

The point is that (as I understood it) you're arguing that we'd know if the Avvar weren't able to perfectly avert the abomination problem. I'm arguing that short of a colossal enough stuff-up to be able to wipe out the entire group our limited exposure isn't really enough that we would expect to know. You're now arguing that we don't know enough to make any point. Unless I very much misunderstood what you were trying to say originally you're actually taking my side with this last post.

[leaguer of one]

The point is that (as I understood it) you're arguing that we'd know if the Avvar weren't able to perfectly avert the abomination problem. I'm arguing that short of a colossal enough stuff-up to be able to wipe out the entire group our limited exposure isn't really enough that we would expect to know. You're now arguing that we don't know enough to make any point. Unless I very much misunderstood what you were trying to say originally you're actually taking my side with this last post.

No...My point is that anything like that would have an epic, something like that is not only nothing to look down at but would make such tale that none of the Avvar would ignore it. And it would be a big feat to the point all of the hold would know about it. Even outsiders would know abit about it even if they get some of it wrong. 

 

My point is that it would be such a tale even outsiders would know bits of it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No...My point is that anything like that would have an epic, something like that is not only nothing to look down at but would make such tale that none of the Avvar would ignore it. And it would be a big feat to the point all of the hold would know about it. Even outsiders would know abit about it even if they get some of it wrong. 

 

My point is that it would be such a tale even outsiders would know bits of it.

Makes sense.

 

Now back to the actual point: why would we necessarily encounter this tale in the actual game?

[leaguer of one]

Makes sense.

 

Now back to the actual point: why would we necessarily encounter this tale in the actual game?

The same reason we encountered Tyrdda Bright-Axe's tale or any other Avvar tale.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The same reason we encountered Tyrdda Bright-Axe's tale or any other Avvar tale.

Is that reason sufficient to believe that any tale we don't encounter doesn't exist?

[Kakistos_]

Yes they did... Demons would be almost non-existant in thedas without mages (and less threatening) as there are even barely any incidents in series where non-mages damaged veil and allowed demon to come through.Blights are results of magisters power hunger a problem that could have been only caused by mage (or person like inquisitor but that is another matter) whether blight existed long before and was locked up in black city or magisters created blight doesn't matter what matters that they are one who unleashed it onto world in their power hunger. So your facts are irrelevant to the matter that pretty much as far only mages are responsible for all world threats and non-mages are in no position to cause world-threat  ,same for magisters unleashing blight onto world.   

Your assertions are false, as others have also pointed out.

 

Again this is what i have said and again such cases are almost non-existant and much less threatening ,pretty much almost all cases of damaged veil in series are mages doing ,avoiding that mages can summon demon or pretty much become an abomnation what is even more doors for demons to enter Thedas.  

Again false. One does not need to be a Mage to sunder the Fade. Nor do Demons need Mages to enter Thedas.

 

 

 

 

And I disproved your assertion by explaining that Rivain is a fractured society with a weak monarchy. In effect it DOES NOT RULE and HAS NEXT TO LITTLE POWER OUTSIDE THE CAPITAL, MEANING SEERS DO IN EFFECT RULE.

 

Duuuur I can bold/capslock too 

You disproved nothing. You dismissed and deflected because the truth doesn't sit with your argument and you are simply wrong. Rivain is not a weak, fractured society with a weak monarchy. We know that Rivain has nobility including princesses/princes and is ruled by a Queen whom important community/Spiritual leaders take the time to pay fealty to. There is no evidence to suggest that the Queen does not rule and the fact that the Seers pay fealty to her is evidence to the contrary. We know that Rivain has an Armada. We know that Rivain has relationships with other countries resulting in arranged marriages.

 

It is suggested that Rivain trades with other countries including Orlais. We know that Rivain has forces enough to be counted in major battles such as the Battle of the Silent Plains where the Archdemon Dumat was slain and they were strong enough to successfully rebel against the Imperium. We know that Rivain has a preference for female leaders and that not all of them are Mages. None of this suggest weak or fractured.

 

 

 

The concept of maintaining appearances and powerless monarchs seems to elude you.

You know, I was just going to ask you a question that I was hoping would be disarming and eye opening.

"Who rules in Antiva?"

 

But really, chances are it would be too subtle so, I'll just explain the logic behind the question.

 

In Antiva, the monarchy has little to no power. The real rulers are a dozen merchant families who control trade, have enough power to hire private armies and ties with the Crows.

And yet, I am quite certain they swear allegiance to the king.

 

This is not arguing, this you repeating what I contested without using further arguments to disprove mine.

 

I use examples from the game, post passages from The World of Thedas and codex which explicitly state how a council of women headed by the Seers make ALL decisions and you fail to refute any of that, just repeating "they are not ruled by mages".

If you don't believe me, here what I said.

 

 

 

 

 

If you don't want to debate with me, that is absolutely fine but at least have the courtesy of saying so. 

 

And the Grey Wardens aren't a society. They are a paramilitary organization composed of the deadliest sons of a b*tch in Thedas who are linked together and to an infinite swarm of orc-zombies through a mystical curse and have a lifespan of 30 years tops.

 

The difference between Rivain and Antiva in that regard is that we KNOW Antivan monarchs have no power. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the same of Rivain and I have provided evidence to the contrary. "Apparently the village leaders—hedge mages they dub "seers"—travel to Dairsmuid twice a year to meet in council, forge trade agreements, and publicly pledge loyalty to Rivain's queen". - Codex Entry: Seers at the Allmeet. You cannot just make stuff up and call it an argument. It is a fact that not every leader of person in position in Rivain is a Mage or Seer. Rivain has nobility and Queen Asha, non-Mage, rose to prominent roles in Rivaini society while she was still a princess.

 

As quoted above the Seers also are said to lead at the local and community level, this in no way suggest that they run the entire country. Neither Empress Celene nor the monarch of Ferelden run things at the local level, power to govern local/community matters are given to Arls/Arlessas Lords/Laddies Barons/Baronesses. In Rivain they have Seers and matriarchs instead and I severely doubt that they have any say within any Qunari settlements in Rivain.

 

Furthermore, foregoing the fact method used in tribal societies are not applicable to societies numbering in the millions, it's worth pointing out we never actually see Avvar mages helping the clan. We hear about their methods to teach mages and deal with ones who are at risk of becoming Abominations...which wouldn't even be necessary if their mages were in the Circle.

Speculation. We have no idea how Circle Mages would apply the knowledge of the Avvars. And Rivain is not a tribal society yet their similar methods seem to have applied well. We don't see characters breathing either but that doesn't mean it's not happening. It is a game. It is simply impossible for the devs to put in every ritual and aspect of an entire culture into the game. They also do not need to, same with breathing.

 

It's called gameplay/lore segregation and can be used to explain many things like how we never see Templars taking Lyrium or Darkspawn being born. What do you mean that the Avvar methods wouldn't be necessary if theri Mages were in a Circle? You have actually played the Dragon Age games right? Both of the Circles we visited had an extreme Abomination problem. The Free Mages of the Avvar are far better off.

 

Had the Mages of the Circles been aware of Avvar or Rivaini methods to ward off and expel Demons then many lives, Mage and Templar alike, would have been saved.

[leaguer of one]

Is that reason sufficient to believe that any tale we don't encounter doesn't exist?

More of the a case that their is no way a tale this big will go unnoticed. 

Would tales of the Avvar not be stated or know? Of course.

 

But would that grander tales go on unnoticed? Nope.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

More of the a case that their is no way a tale this big will go unnoticed. 

Would tales of the Avvar not be stated or know? Of course.

 

But would that grander tales go on unnoticed? Nope.

You mean "unnoticed by people outside their culture" or "unnoticed by a player character who encounters a small number of such tales in the course of a game that is much, much bigger than the Avvar?"

[leaguer of one]

Here's my point...Any argument on the issue of possession to control mage freedom is baseless.

The only strong argument to do so is to protect mages and magic and control the militarization of magic by counties of southern Thedus.

 

Imagine a country in Thedus doing this in a war....

 

But does not mean trapping them in the circle. That just means having someone keep an eye on the nations  and social groups of Thedus.

[leaguer of one]

You mean "unnoticed by people outside their culture" or "unnoticed by a player character who encounters a small number of such tales in the course of a game that is much, much bigger than the Avvar?"

Both. Remember, Bright axe's tale covers an entire area. And any area's that are effected by possession or rogue magic shows so in the environment. It's not going to go unnoticed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Here's my point...Any argument on the issue of possession to control mage freedom is baseless.

Yes, I'm aware that that's your overall point. I'm asking you to support it.

 

 

The only strong argument to do so is to protect mages and magic and control the militarization of magic by counties of southern Thedus.

 

Imagine a country in Thedus doing this in a war....

 

But does not mean trapping them in the circle. That just means having someone keep an eye on the nations  and social groups of Thedus.

Okay. Do you care to explain how they will enforce this? Protection against mages who commit crimes might be done with small teams of mages. How do you intend to stop large numbers of them marching across borders as soldiers?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Both. Remember, Bright axe's tale covers an entire area. And any area's that are effected by possession or rogue magic shows so in the environment. It's not going to go unnoticed.

Do you mean "any area that has ever been effected ever" or "any area that is currently being effected?" I'm not arguing that they're awash in abominations. I'm just arguing that we don't have any really compelling evidence in the direction that nothing ever slips through the cracks of their prevention system (as I thought was your argument.)

[leaguer of one]

Yes, I'm aware that that's your overall point. I'm asking you to support it.

 

Okay. Do you care to explain how they will enforce this? Protection against mages who commit crimes might be done with small teams of mages. How do you intend to stop large numbers of them marching across borders as soldiers?

1. To degrees. Anyone who can shoot fire from their hands need to be watched. What differs is who's watching and how much freedom the mage has.

 

2. Like any other army. Analyze there strengths and weakness and use it ageist them with direct and indirect combat. The issue is no an army of mages. It's the weaponization of magic. This means golem making,magic bomb, possession being used as a controlled weapon, magic enhancement to the body (mage or non-mage), and magic based weapons. None of that is limited to mages being non-mages can make those as well. Heck, even the tranquil are dangerous in the wrong hands. If you think a mage army is an end all, then you're look at it wrong.

[leaguer of one]

Do you mean "any area that has ever been effected ever" or "any area that is currently being effected?" I'm not arguing that they're awash in abominations. I'm just arguing that we don't have any really compelling evidence in the direction that nothing ever slips through the cracks of their prevention system (as I thought was your argument.)

Any area in lore effected by magic have long term effect to said environment even if the issue is solved. It take year for it to go away. To the point mages can feel it by just being there. So it will always show in areas that it happened one way or another. And it the case that the Avvar solved it on their own, the tale would be so big that outsiders would here about it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1. To degrees. Anyone who can shoot fire from their hands need to be watched. What differs is who's watching and how much freedom the mage has.

 

2. Like any other army. Analyze there strengths and weakness and use it ageist them with direct and indirect combat. The issue is no an army of mages. It's the weaponization of magic. This means golem making,magic bomb, possession being used as a controlled weapon, magic enhancement to the body (mage or non-mage), and magic based weapons. None of that is limited to mages being non-mages can make those as well. Heck, even the tranquil are dangerous in the wrong hands. If you think a mage army is an end all, then you're look at it wrong.

1: Wonderfully specific.

 

2: Most of that can be nipped in the bud by the Chantry's monopoly on surface lyrium trade. But I still don't think you're being very specific on the "how does one prevent an army of mages from forming without keeping mages out of the general population" question.

 

Any area in lore effected by magic have long term effect to said environment even if the issue is solved. It take year for it to go away. To the point mages can feel it by just being there. So it will always show in areas that it happened one way or another. And it the case that the Avvar solved it on their own, the tale would be so big that outsiders would here about it.

As far as I remember there's no visible hints that Redcliffe was nearly destroyed during Inquisition (I can't speak to the results if you decide to abandon it since I don't have any World States where that happened.) And while my character isn't a mage I can't remember running across any evidence that a mage PC can tell any more than my rogue can. That was about ten years ago during In Hushed Whispers, and so your PC knows something happened, and Connor is still there so he'd tell you anyway. That's the main reason you know.

 

Now, while I find the Avvar system to be somewhat risky and pretty difficult for others to duplicate given how weird the Fade can be it seems like it could work for enough threats that the Avvar haven't been in actual danger in living memory, which means that this would be just one tale to tell. Possibly even one that only directly features one clan. I'm not sure I agree with assertion that our very small selection of Avvar tales and lore would contain this tale if it actually existed. Even if a Thedasian scholar would know it there's got to be tons of common lore that a scholar would know that we don't.

 

What I'm saying is that I don't think you can assert that if their system failed from time to time, we'd know.

[leaguer of one]

1: Wonderfully specific.

 

2: Most of that can be nipped in the bud by the Chantry's monopoly on surface lyrium trade. But I still don't think you're being very specific on the "how does one prevent an army of mages from forming without keeping mages out of the general population" question.

 

As far as I remember there's no visible hints that Redcliffe was nearly destroyed during Inquisition (I can't speak to the results if you decide to abandon it since I don't have any World States where that happened.) And while my character isn't a mage I can't remember running across any evidence that a mage PC can tell any more than my rogue can. That was about ten years ago during In Hushed Whispers, and so your PC knows something happened, and Connor is still there so he'd tell you anyway. That's the main reason you know.

 

Now, while I find the Avvar system to be somewhat risky and pretty difficult for others to duplicate given how weird the Fade can be it seems like it could work for enough threats that the Avvar haven't been in actual danger in living memory, which means that this would be just one tale to tell. Possibly even one that only directly features one clan. I'm not sure I agree with assertion that our very small selection of Avvar tales and lore would contain this tale if it actually existed. Even if a Thedasian scholar would know it there's got to be tons of common lore that a scholar would know that we don't.

 

What I'm saying is that I don't think you can assert that if their system failed from time to time, we'd know.

1.It comes down to the fact people issues can't be solved with the same solution.

2.No it does not. All the chartry laws do is spread ignorance of magic and defense of said magic. It's like a gun law the penalizes the legal users of weapon but does not to properly ensure illegal users are stopped. All it does is push the issue of magic into darker corners were they have less control.

 

3. Yes there is. The veil is still weak there. Most of the issue is already cleared up. The ammount of magic and how much of it also influence how long it's there.

 

4. But it's more of an issue that writer is not a common scholar. He looks into everything even at risk of his life. And an abomination subjigation would not be left at just common lore for the Avvar. It would be a big tale.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Bethany and Mage Hawke are examples of not needing to permanently keep mages in circles forever. Just get them a tutor and there, knowledge without imprisonment.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1.It comes down to the fact people issues can't be solved with the same solution.

2.No it does not. All the chartry laws do is spread ignorance of magic and defense of said magic. It's like a gun law the penalizes the legal users of weapon but does not to properly ensure illegal users are stopped. All it does is push the issue of magic into darker corners were they have less control.

 

3. Yes there is. The veil is still weak there. Most of the issue is already cleared up. The ammount of magic and how much of it also influence how long it's there.

 

4. But it's more of an issue that writer is not a common scholar. He looks into everything even at risk of his life. And an abomination subjigation would not be left at just common lore for the Avvar. It would be a big tale.

1: Are you even trying to?

2: A: I'm not sure I buy that argument at all.

    B: Illegal users do have to worry about heat from the Templars where illegal gun owners don't have to as much. There are Templars hunting hedge mages.

3: The point is that we the player don't notice any such evidence, and therefore wouldn't necessarily notice such evidence if the Avvars had to deal with a truly dangerous abomination every so often.

4: Would it be a big thing for a non-Avvar, like the kind we're playing? Or would it just be a curiosity the scholars would know? Because we're trying to determine what the player who can't play an Avvar (and thus has no unique "your character would know this" insights into Avvar culture) would reasonably expect to encounter in a world where the Avvar system's shortcomings aren't limited to Hakkon being forced into a dragon, Sigrid being unable to complete a ritual in which she keeps and releases a spirit, and the occasional weak mage being mercy-killed by his gods. (Or at least I am.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bethany and Mage Hawke are examples of not needing to permanently keep mages in circles forever. Just get them a tutor and there, knowledge without imprisonment.

That's because they're not exactly what the Harrowing was meant to weed out.

[leaguer of one]

1: Are you even trying to?

2: A: I'm not sure I buy that argument at all.

    B: Illegal users do have to worry about heat from the Templars where illegal gun owners don't have to as much. There are Templars hunting hedge mages.

3: The point is that we the player don't notice any such evidence, and therefore wouldn't necessarily notice such evidence if the Avvars had to deal with a truly dangerous abomination every so often.

4: Would it be a big thing for a non-Avvar, like the kind we're playing? Or would it just be a curiosity the scholars would know? Because we're trying to determine what the player who can't play an Avvar (and thus has no unique "your character would know this" insights into Avvar culture) would reasonably expect to encounter in a world where the Avvar system's shortcomings aren't limited to Hakkon being forced into a dragon, Sigrid being unable to complete a ritual in which she keeps and releases a spirit, and the occasional weak mage being mercy-killed by his gods. (Or at least I am.)

1. Yes. My point is that it not as simple as black and white.

2. Templers aren't everywhere and  limited to non- nobles and shown in Kirkwalls and Orlais. They also can do anything if Orzammar does these experiments themselves. And even then the majority are not skilled enough to find  every illegal magic user.(example Hawke , his mothers killer, Ander's and his magic nuke) and the ones under their nose.(The Ferelden blood magic uprising, the use of dragons and a high dragon to attempt to kill the Divine)

 

Sorry but Templer are way to clumsy to control the darker corners of illegal magic. We need  knife to deal with it...Not a club.

 

3. *point to fade rift in the center of the town.

 

4.I'm not taking about what the player character know alone. Because much of the Wot 1 and 2 the player does not know. I also refer to what the people and scholars at large also know. if the lead scholar in this does not know of it, who risk life and limp to find info abut this out, which would be a story so big outside would know then at this point it did not happen.

And in all case, a weak avvar mage would be killed off.