1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Drasanil]

You disproved nothing. You dismissed and deflected because the truth doesn't sit with your argument and you are simply wrong. Rivain is not a weak, fractured society with a weak monarchy. We know that Rivain has nobility including princesses/princes and is ruled by a Queen whom important community/Spiritual leaders take the time to pay fealty to. There is no evidence to suggest that the Queen does not rule and the fact that the Seers pay fealty to her is evidence to the contrary. We know that Rivain has an Armada. We know that Rivain has relationships with other countries resulting in arranged marriages.

 

It is suggested that Rivain trades with other countries including Orlais. We know that Rivain has forces enough to be counted in major battles such as the Battle of the Silent Plains where the Archdemon Dumat was slain and they were strong enough to successfully rebel against the Imperium. We know that Rivain has a preference for female leaders and that not all of them are Mages. None of this suggest weak or fractured.

 

1) So what if Rivain trades with other countries? How is that any indication of the actual strength of its monarchy or relative cohesion of its society. All that proves is that Rivain has merchants capable of crossing borders. 

 

2) According to WoT, the Rivaini Monarchy are Chantry faithful but "progressive" in their beliefs out of necessity. In other words they don't exactly have the means to enforce their will. Strong Monarchy you say?

 

3) According the Seers and the Allsmeet, that bi-yearly trip where all the Seers meet up to pledge fealty to the Queen, is also used by the Seers to settle others' disputes in a binding fashion. Funny, if the Queen really ruled, you'd think she'd be the one to have the power to settle disputes in a binding fashion. I guess the seers are just being nice right? I mean, since they're already there pledging fealty they might as well just do the Queen a solid and settle any matters of import for her right? Looks to me like the pledging fealty is a façade for getting down to the real business of running the country.  The alternative is that Seers make cross country trips every 6 months for what is essentially shytes and giggles. As opposed to say doing so individually when a new seer is appointed, or every year, or even every five.  

 

4) When you're talking about Armadas, I assume you mean the Felicisima Armada right? The notorious group of pirates operating out of Llemorryn. "Some people say he runs the Armada. He doesn't. No one does. The Armada is a collection of ships, and each one is like a nation unto itself- its own rules, its own people, its own leader." Yup, I'm certain the Monarchy has them all at their beck and call. 

 

5) Rivain is fractured. It consists of three distinct cultures with divergent, sometimes antithetical beliefs, the Andrastians, the Pantheists, and the Qun adherents that have managed to remain a single country by essentially just ignoring each other. There's a reason the Circle of Dairsmuid was described by its own First Enchanter as a façade to appease the the Chantry. That's because the devoutly Andrastian Monarchy doesn't have the actual power to do any better than put up a show for appearances. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1. Yes. My point is that it not as simple as black and white.

2. Templers aren't everywhere and  limited to non- nobles and shown in Kirkwalls and Orlais. They also can do anything if Orzammar does these experiments themselves. And even then the majority are not skilled enough to find  every illegal magic user.(example Hawke , his mothers killer, Ander's and his magic nuke) and the ones under their nose.(The Ferelden blood magic uprising, the use of dragons and a high dragon to attempt to kill the Divine)

 

Sorry but Templer are way to clumsy to control the darker corners of illegal magic. We need  knife to deal with it...Not a club.

 

3. *point to fade rift in the center of the town.

 

4.I'm not taking about what the player character know alone. Because much of the Wot 1 and 2 the player does not know. I also refer to what the people and scholars at large also know. if the lead scholar in this does not know of it, who risk life and limp to find info abut this out, which would be a story so big outside would know then at this point it did not happen.

And in all case, a weak avvar mage would be killed off.

1: Yeah, that's why the Templars allow a mage!Hawke to run free, why I don't advocate for all mages to need to be in the Circles at all times ever, and why I'm not sure I object to the Mage Underground. I'm not sure that it's an argument against the Circles happening at all.

2: Nobody is arguing you're going to get all the magic users. Just enough to make a difference. Although I suppose this does mean that we don't know the Avvar system doesn't have a higher success rate. (Though that was not your original assertion.) Anyway, if the Templars can't operate somewhere they have no authority, that's not really a failing of their competence, now is it?

3: That happens everywhere. It's not evidence of Redcliffe having an extraordinarily weak Veil because thanks to Corypheus that's been happening everywhere since you hit "New Game" and scared the crap out of the marching drug-addicts by exploding a Temple. In fact you'd expect there to be more than one if the Veil was all that badly mangled.

4: I'm trying to figure out if we would know if the Avvar system if foolproof, so finishing with "besides, the Avvar have a system" isn't the most productive thing you can do. For starters, how detailed is WoT about the Avvar? And does it say or heavily imply the system is a foolproof, works every time deal? If so, then despite being really skeptical I'll let this lie unless something happens to challenge this idea.

[Iakus]

Bethany and Mage Hawke are examples of not needing to permanently keep mages in circles forever. Just get them a tutor and there, knowledge without imprisonment.

Redcliffe

[Drasanil]

Bethany and Mage Hawke are examples of not needing to permanently keep mages in circles forever. Just get them a tutor and there, knowledge without imprisonment.

Redcliffe

 

Kirkwall.

 

If we're going to use DA2 as an example, why not cite the fact that nearly every mage you run into outside of Bethany and Hawke are either blood mages or abominations? [Ignoring Hawke PC syndrome.] Why is it Bethany counts as proof for "Free Mages" when every other mage in DA2, who are pretty much all universally dangerous in some way or another, are summarily ignored when it comes to proof that "mages need to be controlled/managed"?

[Shienis]

If we're going to use DA2 as an example, why not cite the fact that nearly every mage you run into outside of Bethany and Hawke are either blood mages or abominations? [Ignoring Hawke PC syndrome.] Why is it Bethany counts as proof for "Free Mages" when every other mage in DA2, who are pretty much all universally dangerous in some way or another, are summarily ignored when it comes to proof that "mages need to be controlled/managed"?

I wanted to span a conspiracy theory about this, but I'm afraid it would be taken seriously, so I'll just say this: "Because they are nameless NPCs and if they get some name, Hawke deals with them."

[Barquiel]

Circle mages are forcefully separated from their families, forbidden of marrying someone, dating, creating a family, choosing their paths inside or outside the Circle...they live their entire life in an atmosphere of fear and are constantly told how they're bacically monsters. Is it really that surprising that some of them are not exactly mentally stable?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Circle mages are forcefully separated from their families, forbidden of marrying someone, dating, creating a family, choosing their paths inside or outside the Circle...they live their entire life in an atmosphere of fear and are constantly told how they're bacically monsters. Is it really that surprising that some of them are not exactly mentally stable?

While I'll grant you the larger point, saying they can't choose a path inside or outside a Circle is an oversimplification (for example I give you Vivienne, and not to mention that Uldred was apparently able to get away with never teaching) as is the "constantly told how they're bacically monsters" bit. (Wynne notes that a kindly priest helped her settle in.) I'm not saying there's nothing to those, just that you're not giving the whole story.

[Master Warder Z_]

Actually mages like the Templars are allowed to marry/whatever if they get permission from their respective leaders, hard to do but not impossible.

._.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Circle mages are forcefully separated from their families, forbidden of marrying someone, dating, creating a family, choosing their paths inside or outside the Circle...they live their entire life in an atmosphere of fear and are constantly told how they're bacically monsters. Is it really that surprising that some of them are not exactly mentally stable?

You have forgotten about daily torture for 10 hours and templars cannibals...

 

First they are separated from their familes and not allowed to have one for a reason , that they aren't allowed to marry somone is a lie because they can if they have permission.Another matter is that you are outright lying because yes they are allowed to chose their path inside the circle existence of the fraternities especially libertarians proves it.Sorry but i didn't feel atmosphere of fear when i have played magi warden origins or when i visited circle tower in witch hunt and no they aren't constantly told they are monsters in fact they aren't told they are monsters at all.    

[Drasanil]

Actually mages like the Templars are allowed to marry/whatever if they get permission from their respective leaders, hard to do but not impossible.

._.

 

Pfft! How dare you point out facts when mages are just a few platitudes* away from liberty**

 

*Lies

**Supremacy

[TK514]

Circle mages are forcefully separated from their families, forbidden of marrying someone, dating, creating a family, choosing their paths inside or outside the Circle...they live their entire life in an atmosphere of fear and are constantly told how they're bacically monsters. Is it really that surprising that some of them are not exactly mentally stable?

Yes, comrade! We shall not let little inconveniences like facts get in the way of glorious mage revolution! Liberty or slavery on the front line against the Qunari!

[Boost32]

Missing the point here. It's not that they don't get possessed. In fact all of them do to learn magic. It's that they can C O N T R O L  it.
 Sure the sky horror is dangerous....Is it about attacking people? Nope.
 
An possessing has nothing to do with letting people do what they want with magic.  
 
Ironically, any issue of weaponization of magic will be with the state being they can, with mages freed, turn mages with their magic into super weapons.

So it didn't attack Hawke? Yeah, OK.
No, they cant control themselves if a demon posses them, no one can.

Not only it does, but they pose others dangers,too not related with possession.

And its one more motive for them to stay in the Circles.

[leaguer of one]

So it didn't attack Hawke? Yeah, OK.
No, they cant control themselves if a demon posses them, no one can.

Not only it does, but they pose others dangers,too not related with possession.

And its one more motive for them to stay in the Circles.

It did not attack Hawke randomly. It only attack Hawke because he touched something he/she was not supposed to. That's equivalent to a security system.

 

And what other dangers does it has. It you don't touch the shrine, what other issues are there?

[leaguer of one]

1: Yeah, that's why the Templars allow a mage!Hawke to run free, why I don't advocate for all mages to need to be in the Circles at all times ever, and why I'm not sure I object to the Mage Underground. I'm not sure that it's an argument against the Circles happening at all.

2: Nobody is arguing you're going to get all the magic users. Just enough to make a difference. Although I suppose this does mean that we don't know the Avvar system doesn't have a higher success rate. (Though that was not your original assertion.) Anyway, if the Templars can't operate somewhere they have no authority, that's not really a failing of their competence, now is it?

3: That happens everywhere. It's not evidence of Redcliffe having an extraordinarily weak Veil because thanks to Corypheus that's been happening everywhere since you hit "New Game" and scared the crap out of the marching drug-addicts by exploding a Temple. In fact you'd expect there to be more than one if the Veil was all that badly mangled.

4: I'm trying to figure out if we would know if the Avvar system if foolproof, so finishing with "besides, the Avvar have a system" isn't the most productive thing you can do. For starters, how detailed is WoT about the Avvar? And does it say or heavily imply the system is a foolproof, works every time deal? If so, then despite being really skeptical I'll let this lie unless something happens to challenge this idea.

1.After chapter 1 Hawke was allowed free......Because he had the  political impact to sway them.

2. No, it's not making a difference. it just bring the hammer on the compliant ones. As i pointed out there is more to magic then mages and the templers are to clumsy to deal with the real threat they fear. And not being able to work were they have no authority missed the point of protecting the world form magic. The fact they are limited like this means they can't really protect thedus from magic.

3. Not really. Not in Val Royeaux, not is Shyhold, not in Denerum, not in alot of major cities.........But it happen dead in the center of the town and in the castle?

4.The only issue the Avvar system has is that a mage can allow themselves to be possessed by demon with the intent of harm like the cult of the jaws of Hakkon did. That's it. A mage no matter were they are at can do that. it's just mean we need to keep track of mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Your assertions are false, as others have also pointed out.

 

Again false. One does not need to be a Mage to sunder the Fade. Nor do Demons need Mages to enter Thedas.

I see we got to the point where all you can do is stomp your leg and start yelling "false eveyrthing you say is wrong" without being able to provide any argument.

 

Also you are going back and forth and it is something i already replied to, so pretty much poor attempt on your side to twist what i have said to make me look wrong. I never said that non-mages can't damage veil just that such instances are almost non-existant in series almost all cases of damaged veil in series were caused by mages.Also another poor attempt because i described way how demons can cross veil and 2 of 3 ways are possible only thanks to mages where as i said above third way is in almost all cases were mages doing.

[MisterJB]

1) So what if Rivain trades with other countries? How is that any indication of the actual strength of its monarchy or relative cohesion of its society. All that proves is that Rivain has merchants capable of crossing borders. 

 

2) According to WoT, the Rivaini Monarchy are Chantry faithful but "progressive" in their beliefs out of necessity. In other words they don't exactly have the means to enforce their will. Strong Monarchy you say?

 

3) According the Seers and the Allsmeet, that bi-yearly trip where all the Seers meet up to pledge fealty to the Queen, is also used by the Seers to settle others' disputes in a binding fashion. Funny, if the Queen really ruled, you'd think she'd be the one to have the power to settle disputes in a binding fashion. I guess the seers are just being nice right? I mean, since they're already there pledging fealty they might as well just do the Queen a solid and settle any matters of import for her right? Looks to me like the pledging fealty is a façade for getting down to the real business of running the country.  The alternative is that Seers make cross country trips every 6 months for what is essentially shytes and giggles. As opposed to say doing so individually when a new seer is appointed, or every year, or even every five.  

 

4) When you're talking about Armadas, I assume you mean the Felicisima Armada right? The notorious group of pirates operating out of Llemorryn. "Some people say he runs the Armada. He doesn't. No one does. The Armada is a collection of ships, and each one is like a nation unto itself- its own rules, its own people, its own leader." Yup, I'm certain the Monarchy has them all at their beck and call. 

 

5) Rivain is fractured. It consists of three distinct cultures with divergent, sometimes antithetical beliefs, the Andrastians, the Pantheists, and the Qun adherents that have managed to remain a single country by essentially just ignoring each other. There's a reason the Circle of Dairsmuid was described by its own First Enchanter as a façade to appease the the Chantry. That's because the devoutly Andrastian Monarchy doesn't have the actual power to do any better than put up a show for appearances. 

 

And, quite frankly, it is revolting that the rightful rulers of Rivain are beseted on all sides by villainy. From the Abominations which holds rivaini hostages to the mostrous cow-men who are only bidding their time.

 

The faihful of Rivain have but to ask and the full might of the Inquisition shall be brought to bear and the entirety of Rivai brought, at last, to the light of the Maker.

Seers, they say. Abominations, says I! They shall be hunted as dilligently as in the South so their vile lie can not longer corrupt a new generation rivaini girls. And finally, magic will serve man in Rivain, rather than rule over him as is the case.

 

As for the cows, they are the most evil of creatures. No better than Darkspawn and such will they be treated.

 

[Jaison1986]

And, quite frankly, it is revolting that the rightful rulers of Rivain are beseted on all sides by villainy. From the Abominations which holds rivaini hostages to the mostrous cow-men who are only bidding their time.

 

The faihful of Rivain have but to ask and the full might of the Inquisition shall be brought to bear and the entirety of Rivai brought, at last, to the light of the Maker.

Seers, they say. Abominations, says I! They shall be hunted as dilligently as in the South so their vile lie can not longer corrupt a new generation rivaini girls. And finally, magic will serve man in Rivain, rather than rule over him as is the case.

 

As for the cows, they are the most evil of creatures. No better than Darkspawn and such will they be treated.

 

Are you being sarcastic? Otherwise you sound like some mindless religious zealot.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Are you being sarcastic? Otherwise you sound like some mindless religious zealot.

 

Most Loyalists and Pro-Templars are. The reasonable ones are either Aequitarians or people who don't take any sides in this magic vs non magic conflict.

[MisterJB]

 

It was a joke, don't blow up a Chantry.

 

Except for the part about the cows. They really are no better than Darkspawn.

Kill everyone, Taint the survivors.

Kill everyone, convert the survivors.

I see no difference.

[dragonflight288]

Actually mages like the Templars are allowed to marry/whatever if they get permission from their respective leaders, hard to do but not impossible.

._.

 

That depends on the Circle and the disposition of the current Knight-Commander. 

 

I mean, Gregoire allowed the mages a pseudo-life and Wynne only needed Irving's permission to leave with the Warden.

 

But one fact does remain is that unless the mage gets permission to live outside a Circle, even if given permission to marry they are not allowed to have a family or raise their own kids. Wynne's own son was taken from her almost immediately after birth, and she is given a lot of privileges otherwise. Rhys was taken to another Circle, or more likely a Chantry until he was discovered to be a mage, but Wynne was kept from him until the events of Asunder, after he was fully grown. 

 

In Kirkwall we have that one mage who is 26 and escaped the Circle just to have a night with a girl because he was not allowed to even have relationships in Kirkwall.

 

Just like it's been pointed out that sometimes mage supporters ignore the whole story on certain issue, so too do some templar supporters. 

 

I think the whole issue would be a lot simpler if there were standards on what rights mages do or do not have within a circle and how much power the templars wield, and then those standars actively enforced. 

 

There would be bad eggs in both groups, that's just human nature, but if the laws are enforced with equal measure on both sides, and the punishment fits the crime, it would likely go a long way to solving a lot of problems. 

[Shienis]

Most Loyalists and Pro-Templars are. The reasonable ones are either Aequitarians or people who don't take any sides in this magic vs non magic conflict.

While pro-mages and Libertarians(sp?) are the most reasonable people in the world who never give in to emotions. That sounds about right...

[Boost32]

It did not attack Hawke randomly. It only attack Hawke because he touched something he/she was not supposed to. That's equivalent to a security system.
 
And what other dangers does it has. It you don't touch the shrine, what other issues are there?

Yeah, because everyone knows that information. A random shrine in a middle of a florest is not dangerous.
And if you touch it, it just release a inoffensive abomination, that poses no danger at all.

Seriously, you should stop trying to defend that abomination, nothing good came from it.

[Master Warder Z_]

You know a pro mage argument is about to fall flat when it starts off with: "In Kirkwall"

[TK514]

But one fact does remain is that unless the mage gets permission to live outside a Circle, even if given permission to marry they are not allowed to have a family or raise their own kids. Wynne's own son was taken from her almost immediately after birth, and she is given a lot of privileges otherwise. Rhys was taken to another Circle, or more likely a Chantry until he was discovered to be a mage, but Wynne was kept from him until the events of Asunder, after he was fully grown. 

 

I'm still not convinced this is the terrible thing people claim it is, at least not entirely.

 

Ignore the fact that the Circle would be a pretty dangerous place for someone without magic or magic resistance, particularly toddlers who's main interaction with their world is "Will this go in my mouth?".  Can you imagine the mental and emotional impact on someone growing up where their loved ones, role models and peers command the forces of reality at a whim, expecting to come into that power themselves one day only to turn out normal?  The growing discomfort and estrangement as friends they shared childhood dreams of magic with come into power while they remain steadfastly non-magical?  The emotional devastation of the day they are finally told that since they are not a mage, they can no longer remain with the people they love in the only home they have ever known?

 

I'm sure the Circles could afford to set up their exiles in new lives, probably buying apprenticeships with well regarded craftsmen around Thedas, but even if they eventually had the time and money to visit, those exiles could never again truly go home.  Never again be part of the world that their parents and peers inhabit.  They would forever more be on the outside looking in at what they had lost.

 

Is being fostered by the Chantry necessarily great?  Of course not.  But I can't imagine it would be anywhere nearly as bad as growing up normal in a Circle full of Mages.

[Reznore57]

In Kirkwall we have that one mage who is 26 and escaped the Circle just to have a night with a girl because he was not allowed to even have relationships in Kirkwall.

 

I have a feeling even outside the Circle Emile De Launcet would have been a virgin at 26 anyway.

Well maybe not , there's the Blooming Rose.

 

What was shocking though is him saying "I never stood in the rain."

I mean...er what?

I think even in jail they let you go out outside at least once a day.

 

From what I've gathered though every circles has its own policies.

There's some laws protecting mages life and interests.

But it all depends on the templar commander and the First Enchanter.

 

Also freedom...in some cases mages were allowed to live outside the circles .Problem is it's more a case of a lottery than something every mage has a chance at.

In kirkwall mages were screwed , Meredith didn't allow mages (well except Hawke and his apostate friend) to go out and prove themselves.

I doubt the Viscount could ask for a court mage for example.

After the Qunari uprising , and the mages fighting against them...there's no talk of Meredith granting them a bit more freedom .

 

Kirkwall was a case of the whole system going wrong on every bloody level.

Meredith was far too harsh.Orsino was hiding shady stuff .The Seekers never bothered with Kirkwall ....

Elthina was stuck , Meredith wasn't listening to her.

The Divine was pressured to call for an Exalted March on the town.

 

Then an apostate blow some stuff up , and mages in the Kirkwall Circle who have nothing to do with that , get killed.

 

Now of course the mages want out of the circles ASAP , you're in a badly run Circle?

Well too bad because the Seekers don't think its worth their time to change the Circle leadership but don't worry the Chantry will fix this with an Exalted March or the templars will call for an annulment.

 

I'm not even anti Circle , I mean the whole mage rebellion /Fiona at Redcliffe is also worth a few facepalm.

But clearly mages needs a bit more power , mages and templars needs to work closely together .

The Seekers need to do their work , check every circles ...

Mage freedom shouldn't be a lottery , let mage do some community work or research or whatever and have a chance to earn their ticket out.

And not all mages would leave the Circle ,  because not everyone is going to hook a rich Duke and end up living in a palace.