1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

Yeah you guys are right, Clearly Thedas needs to adopt The Witchers Nilfgaardian method of dragging upstart mages to the centre of victory square and having them publicly executed to set an example 

[The Baconer]

Yeah you guys are right, Clearly Thedas needs to adopt The Witchers Nilfgaardian method of dragging upstart mages to the centre of victory square and having them publicly executed to set an example 

 

That is the fate a responsible Seeker would have assigned to Meredith and Orsino.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That is the fate a responsible Seeker would have assigned to Meredith and Orsino.

And risk them fighting back? A responsible Seeker would have just put knives in their kidneys.

[Augustei]

And risk them fighting back? A responsible Seeker would have just put knives in their kidneys.

Nah them fighting back ensures you can weed out their loyalists and execute them as well.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1.After chapter 1 Hawke was allowed free......Because he had the  political impact to sway them.

2. No, it's not making a difference. it just bring the hammer on the compliant ones. As i pointed out there is more to magic then mages and the templers are to clumsy to deal with the real threat they fear. And not being able to work were they have no authority missed the point of protecting the world form magic. The fact they are limited like this means they can't really protect thedus from magic.

3. Not really. Not in Val Royeaux, not is Shyhold, not in Denerum, not in alot of major cities.........But it happen dead in the center of the town and in the castle?

4.The only issue the Avvar system has is that a mage can allow themselves to be possessed by demon with the intent of harm like the cult of the jaws of Hakkon did. That's it. A mage no matter were they are at can do that. it's just mean we need to keep track of mages.

1: Which doesn't stop Meredith from threatening a wiseass mage!Hawke with "You're not in the Circle because I said so."

2: We clearly see that not all the mages they bring the hammer down are compliant. There's the Starkhaven ones, and there's Anders, and there's the blood mages the Amaranthine Templars greenlight in Awakening. And while we don't see Templars attacking people who question the Chantry's lyrium monopoly that's another thing I'd need actual evidence to accept isn't happening. And if they can't protect all of Thedas, they can at least make the parts that are under their jurisdiction safer. To say that something isn't a perfect solution is not to say it's useless.

3: Okay, does it happen in the Castle before the Inquisitor spends a year or so not existing, and the Breach fills the entire sky? As for the one you close before getting into the castle (and the one right outside the village, come to think of it), you really are making too much of it (or them.) If there's notable places where it doesn't happen, those tears are still far from rare and in places we don't know to have been the site of zombie apocalypses. Besides which Denerim got trampled by the Darkspawn just as recently as Denerim got zombie'd, so if Redcliffe's tear(s) wouldn't have happened were it not for Connor you'd expect that Denerim would be in danger.

4: Since I'm trying to determine if we would know that that was false if it was, you're really not issuing the compelling argument you think you are. Also, even supposing the system was flawless (apart from the stuff you've already conceded I mean) what are the implications for Thedas as a whole? It really seems to me that those spirits probably have their hands full with the Avvar even assuming they can handle the workload, and searching out new spirits to do the task for everyone else can go wrong in a hurry.

[TobiTobsen]

That is the fate a responsible Seeker would have assigned to Meredith and Orsino.

 

To bad that nearly the entire Seeker order was more than useless. It's good that we can either reform or smash and replace that useless construct. The Seeker need to get their **** together and start doing their job.

 

I'm in favor of the circle system but it cannot function if Templar chapters go all Kirkwall without any Seeker doing his damn duty.

[The Baconer]

Nah them fighting back ensures you can weed out their loyalists and execute them as well.

 

This. Excising the most toxic individuals is one thing, but the most important part is ensuring that everyone else knows that such behavior will not be tolerated.

[Boost32]

Yeah you guys are right, Clearly Thedas needs to adopt The Witchers Nilfgaardian method of dragging upstart mages to the centre of victory square and having them publicly executed to set an example 

Thats not Nilfgaardian style, thats Radovid's style.
The Nilfgaardian way is to give them 2 choices, serve the crown or die.

[Master Warder Z_]

Thats not Nilfgaardian style, thats Radovid's style.
The Nilfgaardian way is to give them 2 choices, serve the crown or die.

It's based off a comment Letho made back in Witcher 2 about Nilfgaardian mages

[leaguer of one]

1: Which doesn't stop Meredith from threatening a wiseass mage!Hawke with "You're not in the Circle because I said so."

2: We clearly see that not all the mages they bring the hammer down are compliant. There's the Starkhaven ones, and there's Anders, and there's the blood mages the Amaranthine Templars greenlight in Awakening. And while we don't see Templars attacking people who question the Chantry's lyrium monopoly that's another thing I'd need actual evidence to accept isn't happening. And if they can't protect all of Thedas, they can at least make the parts that are under their jurisdiction safer. To say that something isn't a perfect solution is not to say it's useless.

3: Okay, does it happen in the Castle before the Inquisitor spends a year or so not existing, and the Breach fills the entire sky? As for the one you close before getting into the castle (and the one right outside the village, come to think of it), you really are making too much of it (or them.) If there's notable places where it doesn't happen, those tears are still far from rare and in places we don't know to have been the site of zombie apocalypses. Besides which Denerim got trampled by the Darkspawn just as recently as Denerim got zombie'd, so if Redcliffe's tear(s) wouldn't have happened were it not for Connor you'd expect that Denerim would be in danger.

4: Since I'm trying to determine if we would know that that was false if it was, you're really not issuing the compelling argument you think you are. Also, even supposing the system was flawless (apart from the stuff you've already conceded I mean) what are the implications for Thedas as a whole? It really seems to me that those spirits probably have their hands full with the Avvar even assuming they can handle the workload, and searching out new spirits to do the task for everyone else can go wrong in a hurry.

1. So what? She can threaten all so wants. If a mage has enough political back she can't do anything.

2.Sure they are not complaint. that's not the issue. The issue is protecting the world from magic. Much of the thing templers do just add fire to the issue of mage social issues. Ironically, feeling of being trapped in the circle push mages to choose blood magic for deference ever fight back with just normal magic. That does not protect anyone from magic. All it does is put a group down. Also, ironically about the illegal lyrium trade, we see in da2 that the templers are part of it but also in dai we see that the templers miss most of it.

3. Does not matter. The rifts open in places the veil is weak. That can't be denied.

4. ....Can you give a better answer then,"we may tire out the infinite amount and tire less spirits because that is just a loop claim.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah, because everyone knows that information. A random shrine in a middle of a florest is not dangerous.
And if you touch it, it just release a inoffensive abomination, that poses no danger at all.

Seriously, you should stop trying to defend that abomination, nothing good came from it.

Hey, that issue id with them. If they can't read or understand the danger sign I put up that's on them. Point is the sky horror is only as dangerous as a properly secured  guard dog.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1. So what? She can threaten all so wants. If a mage has enough political back she can't do anything.

2.Sure they are not complaint. that's not the issue. The issue is protecting the world from magic. Much of the thing templers do just add fire to the issue of mage social issues. Ironically, feeling of being trapped in the circle push mages to choose blood magic for deference ever fight back with just normal magic. That does not protect anyone from magic. All it does is put a group down. Also, ironically about the illegal lyrium trade, we see in da2 that the templers are part of it but also in dai we see that the templers miss most of it.

3. Does not matter. The rifts open in places the veil is weak. That can't be denied.

4. ....Can you give a better answer then,"we may tire out the infinite amount and tire less spirits because that is just a loop claim.

1: You're arguing that the woman who's preventing the election of a new viscount after the death of the one she appointed to replace the one she lynched can be stopped by politicians.

2: Templars are a part of the trade of lyrium to themselves and the mages. Do we see any evidence that they're helping with any of the things you're saying are larger concerns with regards to magic than mages are? Or that they allow enough lyrium for the really bad ones to pass without their noticing it? And I'm not denying that some mages resist and that Lambert's idiocy as a politician is part of why that came to a head; usually, however, these are only minor problems. For most of the Circle's history most of the Circle mages have been putting up with it. Those that don't the Templars hunt down.

3: Since this argument originally started over the question of "do we notice this?" relevant to "if the Avvar ever had to deal with dangers other than the one we put down in Jaws of Hakkon, we'd know" I don't think you can say this point doesn't matter. Although since we've made Fade Rifts evidence of a weaker than normal Veil because you think it both makes sense and helps your case, the wiki says there are four quests to handle the ones that have opened in the area of the Frostbacks we explore in Jaws of Hakkon. The average per quest is two rifts. There are eight total. Your rebuttal?

4: There's a finite number of spirits already handling the "patrol the Avvar mages" job, as I understand it. Even assuming that spirits don't tire (and I don't think you have any evidence of that beyond their not having actual bodies,) it's unlikely they can handle doing this for the entire world since there's almost no chance at all they can split their attention between every mage. You can argue that we could get more, but the ones that aren't already doing so I hesitate to trust. For all that we've seen benevolent spirits since the first game, it's also been driven home since then that spirits are dangerous.

[Boost32]

Hey, that issue id with them. If they can't read or understand the danger sign I put up that's on them. Point is the sky horror is only as dangerous as a properly secured  guard dog.

So if people cant read a "sign" of hundrerds of years, in a open forest, the blame is on them? Sorry but thats the worse excuse I ever read.
And comparing a abomination with a guard dog is beyond ridiculous.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hey, that issue id with them. If they can't read or understand the danger sign I put up that's on them. Point is the sky horror is only as dangerous as a properly secured  guard dog.

I am given to understand most of Thedas is illiterate. Even if that's not true, what Boost said.

[leaguer of one]

x

[leaguer of one]

So if people cant read a "sign" of hundrerds of years, in a open forest, the blame is on them? Sorry but thats the worse excuse I ever read.
And comparing a abomination with a guard dog is beyond ridiculous.

 

 

I am given to understand most of Thedas is illiterate. Even if that's not true, what Boost said.

 It's one thing if they left the abomination out to go were ever it want and attack who ever they want  but it's not this case at all. It's trapped and it will only attacked who ever effects the wrong thing.

It's just a security system. Nothing more.

[leaguer of one]

1: You're arguing that the woman who's preventing the election of a new viscount after the death of the one she appointed to replace the one she lynched can be stopped by politicians.

2: Templars are a part of the trade of lyrium to themselves and the mages. Do we see any evidence that they're helping with any of the things you're saying are larger concerns with regards to magic than mages are? Or that they allow enough lyrium for the really bad ones to pass without their noticing it? And I'm not denying that some mages resist and that Lambert's idiocy as a politician is part of why that came to a head; usually, however, these are only minor problems. For most of the Circle's history most of the Circle mages have been putting up with it. Those that don't the Templars hunt down.

3: Since this argument originally started over the question of "do we notice this?" relevant to "if the Avvar ever had to deal with dangers other than the one we put down in Jaws of Hakkon, we'd know" I don't think you can say this point doesn't matter. Although since we've made Fade Rifts evidence of a weaker than normal Veil because you think it both makes sense and helps your case, the wiki says there are four quests to handle the ones that have opened in the area of the Frostbacks we explore in Jaws of Hakkon. The average per quest is two rifts. There are eight total. Your rebuttal?

4: There's a finite number of spirits already handling the "patrol the Avvar mages" job, as I understand it. Even assuming that spirits don't tire (and I don't think you have any evidence of that beyond their not having actual bodies,) it's unlikely they can handle doing this for the entire world since there's almost no chance at all they can split their attention between every mage. You can argue that we could get more, but the ones that aren't already doing so I hesitate to trust. For all that we've seen benevolent spirits since the first game, it's also been driven home since then that spirits are dangerous.

1. Which it was. She could do nothing to you as long an offical was there to tell her not to. In the case of the end of DA2, any official that could stop are gone.

2. Da2 has them being part of lyrium smuggling to them out of addiction. It's in Ander's quest in act 2. And the social issues of mage is not a minor issue. The fact it gone that be means it's an issue. The templer stated in good intentions and then slowly were replaced by people who are like cop you hear of oxerzelioly beating people up in the news  at least in most of the circles. Sorry but controlling mages does not control magic.

 

3.Nope, why is there a surprise their fade rift near people who live with spirits?

 

4.No they are not. The fade is an infinite plain. Spirit are non-corporal and are made from the materials and part of the fade. If something is made form something that has an  infinite amount then how is the world  are you going run out of the thing that made form something of and infinite amount?

 

There is no limit to the amount of demons and spirits in the fade because the fade is infinite. These being are made from part of the fade.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 It's one thing if they left the abomination out to go were ever it want and attack who ever they want  but it's not this case at all. It's trapped and it will only attacked who ever effects the wrong thing.

It's just a security system. Nothing more.

I view that as more sidestepping our objections than addressing them. That is a really annoying habit which seems to define your debating style.

[Boost32]

It's one thing if they left the abomination out to go were ever it want and attack who ever they want but it's not this case at all. It's trapped and it will only attacked who ever effects the wrong thing.
It's just a security system. Nothing more.

Its like saying that if I put a mine in the middle of a forest, put a sign in a foreign language and someone step on it, the fault lies on the people who stepped on it.
Can you see how ridiculous is your argument?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1. Which it was. She could do nothing to you as long an offical was there to tell her not to. In the case of the end of DA2, any official that could stop are gone.

2. Da2 has them being part of lyrium smuggling to them out of addiction. It's in Ander's quest in act 2. And the social issues of mage is not a minor issue. The fact it gone that be means it's an issue. The templer stated in good intentions and then slowly were replaced by people who are like cop you hear of oxerzelioly beating people up in the news  at least in most of the circles. Sorry but controlling mages does not control magic.

 

3.Nope, why is there a surprise their fade rift near people who live with spirits?

 

4.No they are not. The fade is an infinite plain. Spirit are non-corporal and are made from the materials and part of the fade. If something is made form something that has an  infinite amount then how is the world  are you going run out of the thing that made form something of and infinite amount?

 

There is no limit to the amount of demons and spirits in the fade because the fade is infinite. These being are made from part of the fade.

1: Again: she'd lynched the previous viscount. She didn't find out about you before you killed the Arishok because you were somehow under the radar (I interpret that as Mage!Hawke being much smarter about their magic than Varric shows in-game) and didn't do so afterwards because she chose not to. Part of her choice was probably that you were useful, part of it was because Hawke is dangerous on a personal level, and part of it probably because it made her takeover smoother not to arrest a person most of the city liked. You're probably right that Hawke's influence helped, but don't confuse that for Meredith not being able to ignore it if she so chose. She simply decided the costs outweighed the benefits.

2: The individual uprisings were a minor issue in a system that for the most part had worked because the mages saw its logic and wanted it to, as well as (some of) the Templars being flexible enough to use apostates who didn't pose a threat for their own ends. Eventually the Templars wound up under the control of idiots, but that's not the same as the system being unworkable in the hands of people who aren't. And those idiots are dead by the time Inquisition ends, whether or not the Templar Order is.

3: Now that you've conceded that: how would we know if the Avvar system failed from time to time and an abomination became an actual danger, that's consistent with what little evidence of the disaster we observed in Redcliffe?

4: Congratulations on giving a rebuttal that I already rebutted in the last two sentences of the post you think you just replied to.

[leaguer of one]

I view that as more sidestepping our objections than addressing them. That is a really annoying habit which seems to define your debating style.

 

 

Its like saying that if I put a mine in the middle of a forest, put a sign in a foreign language and someone step on it, the fault lies on the people who stepped on it.
Can you see how ridiculous is your argument?

1. Not a side set. That was may starting argument on it. If the issue is about a lack of control of magic being a concern when this is clear an issue of controlled magic.

 

2. Nope, more of the case of someone putting a trap in place to attack anyone trying to take you're thing. Sorry, but this is a security device being that this was all to guard Avvar treasure.

[leaguer of one]

1: Again: she'd lynched the previous viscount. She didn't find out about you before you killed the Arishok because you were somehow under the radar (I interpret that as Mage!Hawke being much smarter about their magic than Varric shows in-game) and didn't do so afterwards because she chose not to. Part of her choice was probably that you were useful, part of it was because Hawke is dangerous on a personal level, and part of it probably because it made her takeover smoother not to arrest a person most of the city liked. You're probably right that Hawke's influence helped, but don't confuse that for Meredith not being able to ignore it if she so chose. She simply decided the costs outweighed the benefits.

2: The individual uprisings were a minor issue in a system that for the most part had worked because the mages saw its logic and wanted it to, as well as the Templars being flexible enough to use apostates who didn't pose a threat for their own ends. Eventually the Templars wound up under the control of idiots, but that's not the same as the system being unworkable in the hands of people who aren't. And those idiots are dead by the time Inquisition ends, whether or not the Templar Order is.

3: Now that you've conceded that: how would we know if the Avvar system failed from time to time and an abomination became an actual danger, that's consistent with what little evidence of the disaster we observed in Redcliffe?

4: Congratulations on giving a rebuttal that I already rebutted in the last two sentences of the post you think you just replied to.

1. She did so because he attacked the templer. if you're going to use a point use all the info. That far from the case from kirkwall of now. That time it was a life or death action the political was in her favor anyway.

 

2.As long as an exploit is there then there is a problem. Nothing is stopping it from happening agein and keeping mage ignorante to how to deal with the outside world hurts no one and harms everyone. In trapping them in the circle helps no one.

 

3.Because they are not ignorant of spirits and magical energy an area can be from positive and/or negative magical effect.  Of course a large amount of spirits,good or bad , is going to weaken the veil. The issue is the avvar are not ignorant of spirit for some like that to happen by accident. If it happen it will always be intentional like with the Jaws of hakkon.

 

4. No, you did not. You just said spirits are dangerous. That not the case. Ignores of how to deal spirits make them dangerous. The fact that the avvar can detach spirit from people make it a point they are far from dangerous then you pointed out.

[Boost32]

1. Not a side set. That was may starting argument on it. If the issue is about a lack of control of magic being a concern when this is clear an issue of controlled magic.
 
2. Nope, more of the case of someone putting a trap in place to attack anyone trying to take you're thing. Sorry, but this is a security device being that this was all to guard Avvar treasure.

That is irresponsible, you cant really think its fine.
How can you think its not dangerous? Lol.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1. She did so because he attacked the templer. if you're going to use a point use all the info. That far from the case from kirkwall of now. That time it was a life or death action the political was in her favor anyway.

 

2.As long as an exploit is there then there is a problem. Nothing is stopping it from happening agein and keeping mage ignorante to how to deal with the outside world hurts no one and harms everyone. In trapping them in the circle helps no one.

 

3.Because they are not ignorant of spirits and magical energy an area can be from positive and/or negative magical effect.  Of course a large amount of spirits,good or bad , is going to weaken the veil. The issue is the avvar are not ignorant of spirit for some like that to happen by accident. If it happen it will always be intentional like with the Jaws of hakkon.

 

4. No, you did not. You just said spirits are dangerous. That not the case. Ignores of how to deal spirits make them dangerous. The fact that the avvar can detach spirit from people make it a point they are far from dangerous then you pointed out.

1: She then proceeded to pick a Viscount who was afraid she would unpick him. If I wasn't using the whole story, neither were you.

2: Except the people who would be harmed by a weak mage losing to a demon. It sure helps them. Oh, and the weak mage who would die even if they were using the Avvar system gets a choice between that and Tranquility.

3: You're yet again arguing using the point I'm not sure we know as support. That is unproductive and leads me to suspect there is no proof of it.

4: The Avvar can usually detach spirits from people. Nor is that the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that if you wish to use their anti-abomination method, you need a powerful spirit. The powerful spirits that have been working for the Avvar for a very long time are mostly trustworthy, though sticking one in a dragon brings out the worst in it. Trying to use a spirit whose nature you don't know is a dangerous plan, and their nature can change based on we're not sure what. Even Solas admits that certain spirits are dangerous.

 

Oh, wait, no. The real issue is that you made a claim with no proof, that there's never any danger of accidental abominations from the Avvar system. I said I wasn't going to believe it without proof, since a system for magic working perfectly usually isn't how this setting works, and told you what proof would look like. You proceeded to argue about whether or not this is proof and then switch the debate to things that aren't really relevant to the original question before eventually using the questioned assertion as evidence. Let's get back on track: is there proof that there are no bugs in the Avvar system apart from what happened to Hakkon? Don't answer by explaining the Avvar system, answer by saying what you think you know about how effective it is and how you think you know it.

[leaguer of one]

That is irresponsible, you cant really think its fine.
How can you think its not dangerous? Lol.

You say this with as much dungons and trap we go thought the games? We go thought a nobles estate in dao which is filled with trap....Why? they don't want people to just come in and take their stuff.... Same concept.

 

Ofcousre it's dangerous, that's the point. It's a danger to anyone who trying to take there thing under the sly. It's a security system.