1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You say this with as much dungons and trap we go thought the games? We go thought a nobles estate in dao which is filled with trap....Why? they don't want people to just come in and take their stuff.... Same concept.

 

Ofcousre it's dangerous, that's the point. It's a danger to anyone who trying to take there thing under the sly. It's a security system.

My understanding is that he's talking about a shrine in the middle of the forest. And that you activate the demon that wants to kill you by touching the shrine. If you go into a dungeon and expect not to hit a trap, you're stupid. If you expect the same level of caution about touching shrines, the person who touched it isn't the stupid one.

[leaguer of one]

1: She then proceeded to pick a Viscount who was afraid she would unpick him. If I wasn't using the whole story, neither were you.

2: Except the people who would be harmed by a weak mage losing to a demon. It sure helps them. Oh, and the weak mage who would die even if they were using the Avvar system gets a choice between that and Tranquility.

3: You're yet again arguing using the point I'm not sure we know as support. That is unproductive and leads me to suspect there is no proof of it.

4: The Avvar can usually detach spirits from people. Nor is that the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that if you wish to use their anti-abomination method, you need a powerful spirit. The powerful spirits that have been working for the Avvar for a very long time are mostly trustworthy, though sticking one in a dragon brings out the worst in it. Trying to use a spirit whose nature you don't know is a dangerous plan, and their nature can change based on we're not sure what. Even Solas admits that certain spirits are dangerous.

 

Oh, wait, no. The real issue is that you made a claim with no proof, that there's never any danger of accidental abominations from the Avvar system. I said I wasn't going to believe it without proof, since a system for magic working perfectly usually isn't how this setting works, and told you what proof would look like. You proceeded to argue about whether or not this is proof and then switch the debate to things that aren't really relevant to the original question before eventually using the questioned assertion as evidence. Let's get back on track: is there proof that there are no bugs in the Avvar system apart from what happened to Hakkon? Don't answer by explaining the Avvar system, answer by saying what you think you know about how effective it is and how you think you know it.

1. It was the Chantry that picked him. Again use the whole story.

 

2.Which is way the issue is ignorance. This point to how the avvar would deal with it with no innocent live being lost. Which goes back to my point of the issue of possession to take the mages is bs.

 

3.We do have proof of it is the circles with the sentinals and with spirit mages. Even with mages bounded to spirits benevolent and malevolent.

 

4.No, you don't need a powerful spirit.  In jaws of hakkon they used a special potion to do it  and a spell.

[leaguer of one]

My understanding is that he's talking about a shrine in the middle of the forest. And that you activate the demon that wants to kill you by touching the shrine. If you go into a dungeon and expect not to hit a trap, you're stupid. If you expect the same level of caution about touching shrines, the person who touched it isn't the stupid one.

Except my example was an estate and you were warn by a scholer. Point still stand. Also, Ironically, the horror only come up if you take the book of the lady of the sky from the shrine.

 

That still means it's just a security system.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1. It was the Chantry that picked him. Again use the whole story.

 

2.Which is way the issue is ignorance. This point to how the avvar would deal with it with no innocent live being lost. Which goes back to my point of the issue of possession to take the mages is bs.

 

3.We do have proof of it is the circles with the sentinals and with spirit mages. Even with mages bounded to spirits benevolent and malevolent.

 

4.No, you don't need a powerful spirit.  In jaws of hakkon they used a special potion to do it  and a spell.

I was going to ask if you remembered what the debate was originally about, but since I just reposted it I'm not going to bother.

[leaguer of one]

I was going to ask if you remembered what the debate was originally about, but since I just reposted it I'm not going to bother.

Yes I remember. And my point  is don't need the circle as it was to protect the world from magic or the train mages. The avvar show that fear of random possession is baseless. The only fear that needs to be had are with people with malevolent intent and that is not limited to mages at all.  Knife is need for that not a club. The other mages do need to be watch but not cut off from the world  to do so. It just makes more problems.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes I remember. And my point  is don't need the circle as it was to protect the world from magic or the train mages. The avvar show that fear of random possession is baseless. The only fear that needs to be had are with people with malevolent intent and that is not limited to mages at all.  Knife is need for that not a club. The other mages do need to be watch but not cut off from the world  to do so. It just makes more problems.

The original point of this exchange was that you said the Avvar system never resulted in an accidental abomination threatening people, and I said that was a bit of a bold statement considering none of the other systems for dealing with magic are that good. Without getting into whether or not its the best system or whether or not the rest of Thedas could be doing what they're doing, that specific claim seems slightly out of tune with the rest of the setting even accounting for the fact that it comes at the cost of a mage the Circle would Tranquilize dying in his sleep and the rest of the clan kinda understanding what happened. I'd still believe it if WoT said to or something, but my understanding is all our evidence for it literally always working is an Augur who I'm not sure I trust to tell the whole truth.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Except my example was an estate and you were warn by a scholer. Point still stand. Also, Ironically, the horror only come up if you take the book of the lady of the sky from the shrine.

 

That still means it's just a security system.

Point taken about the horror. But how much warning do you get? It's still kinda prickish if you get no warning that if you pick up the book, you wind up fighting for your life against a magically powered monster. For that matter, were there any warnings in place about whatever your example was apart from the scholar? There's a reason junkyards have signs on their fences saying "Beware of Dog." I mean, yeah, if you're walking into an estate you'd expect there to be security, but it's generally considered sporting to warn people before unleashing security that can kill them.

[leaguer of one]

Point taken about the horror. But how much warning do you get? It's still kinda prickish if you get no warning that if you pick up the book, you wind up fighting for your life against a magically powered monster. For that matter, were there any warnings in place about whatever your example was apart from the scholar? There's a reason junkyards have signs on their fences saying "Beware of Dog." I mean, yeah, if you're walking into an estate you'd expect there to be security, but it's generally considered sporting to warn people before unleashing security that can kill them.

Well, just blame short term think Avvar who know no other languages.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well, just blame short term think Avvar who know no other languages.

I think that's what Boost and I agreed to do, yes. Glad you agree.

[leaguer of one]

The original point of this exchange was that you said the Avvar system never resulted in an accidental abomination threatening people, and I said that was a bit of a bold statement considering none of the other systems for dealing with magic are that good. Without getting into whether or not its the best system or whether or not the rest of Thedas could be doing what they're doing, that specific claim seems slightly out of tune with the rest of the setting even accounting for the fact that it comes at the cost of a mage the Circle would Tranquilize dying in his sleep and the rest of the clan kinda understanding what happened. I'd still believe it if WoT said to or something, but my understanding is all our evidence for it literally always working is an Augur who I'm not sure I trust to tell the whole truth.

But they don't have accidental once. They not only what the mage themselves but use benevolent spirits to do so. The only case they have are intentional. This system can still be mixed based on need but the issue of mage possession lack of control is ungrounded. All lack of this info form before is because the overzealousness of the chantry system with magic and cultural xenophobia. 

 

It's the wrong thing to worry about if ignorance of magic is not used.

[leaguer of one]

I think that's what Boost and I agreed to do, yes. Glad you agree.

Joking. But still , it is just a security system and  not a sign of the lack of control over magic the avvar have.

[Iakus]

But they don't have accidental once. They not only what the mage themselves but use benevolent spirits to do so. The only case they have are intentional. This system can still be mixed based on need but the issue of mage possession lack of control is ungrounded. All lack of this info form before is because the overzealousness of the chantry system with magic and cultural xenophobia. 

 

It's the wrong thing to worry about if ignorance of magic is not used.

You realize that they reason they hardly have any abominations is because "benevolent" spirits kill weak mages in their sleep to keep them from becoming threats, right?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But they don't have accidental once. They not only what the mage themselves but use benevolent spirits to do so. The only case they have are intentional. This system can still be mixed based on need but the issue of mage possession lack of control is ungrounded. All lack of this info form before is because the overzealousness of the chantry system with magic and cultural xenophobia. 

 

It's the wrong thing to worry about if ignorance of magic is not used.

Wherever this lack of info comes from, it means we don't know. We aren't able to determine that they don't have accidental possessions because there's more than enough room out of our sight that they could happen where we can't see or hear them. So you can't really argue that they don't have accidental possessions ever because we really don't know.

[leaguer of one]

You realize that they reason they hardly have any abominations is because "benevolent" spirits kill weak mages in their sleep to keep them from becoming threats, right?

That may not be what spirit leader guy meant but it's better then becoming abominations if that is the case. It's ether that or making them tranquil.

It's still no different then the harrowing.

[leaguer of one]

Wherever this lack of info comes from, it means we don't know. We aren't able to determine that they don't have accidental possessions because there's more than enough room out of our sight that they could happen where we can't see or hear them. So you can't really argue that they don't have accidental possessions ever because we really don't know.

And now we are going to a loop. to save time just read everything I wrote about the avvar and list it under "We would of heard about it if it was the case."

And the fact the the benevolent spirit also keeping an eye on the mages is also a point. 

 

The only issue is that if the mage intentionally becomes an abomination like with the jaws of hakkon, not accidental.

[Iakus]

That may not be what spirit leader guy meant but it's better then becoming abominations if that is the case. It's ether that or making them tranquil.

It's still no different then the harrowing.

I could just imagine the outrage if the Harrowing was replaced by summary executions.

[Barquiel]

I could just imagine the outrage if the Harrowing was replaced by summary executions.

Greagoir: "Know this apprentice: if you fail, we templars will perform our duty. You will die."

 

So what's the difference?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Greagoir: "Know this apprentice: if you fail, we templars will perform our duty. You will die."

 

So what's the difference?

The fact that you can get out of the Harrowing by agreeing to become Tranquil, and that you can pass the Harrowing. If it seems harsh, it's because people who can't pass the Harrowing are enough of a danger that they're not suffered to live by the Avvar. Giving those who know they can't pass the choice between that and losing their emotions is as much mercy as I think Thedas can afford.

[Iakus]

The fact that you can get out of the Harrowing by agreeing to become Tranquil, and that you can pass the Harrowing. If it seems harsh, it's because people who can't pass the Harrowing are enough of a danger that they're not suffered to live by the Avvar. Giving those who know they can't pass the choice between that and losing their emotions is as much mercy as I think Thedas can afford.

Not only that, the apprentices have a chance to prove themselves.  The Avvar just...die.

 

It would be like Gregoir got to pick and choose based on his own judgement which apprentices should live or die.

[Barquiel]

The fact that you can get out of the Harrowing by agreeing to become Tranquil, and that you can pass the Harrowing. If it seems harsh, it's because people who can't pass the Harrowing are enough of a danger that they're not suffered to live by the Avvar. Giving those who know they can't pass the choice between that and losing their emotions is as much mercy as I think Thedas can afford.

 
Fair enough, but we don't really know what the avvar do with mages who don't want to be possessed by a spirit, unless I missed something.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And now we are going to a loop. to save time just read everything I wrote about the avvar and list it under "We would of heard about it if it was the case."

And the fact the the benevolent spirit also keeping an eye on the mages is also a point. 

 

The only issue is that if the mage intentionally becomes an abomination like with the jaws of hakkon, not accidental.

I'm not sure you've proved your point. Your main point there was that a mage would know if that happened in the Avvar territory because of the Veil damage, which I don't think is supported by Redcliffe having only two Veil Tears where there's way more in the Hinterlands. (I'm only counting the ones before the Time Warp because there's way too many alternative explanations for however many you see in the Bad Future.) Then I pointed out that there's way more Veil Tears than that in the Frostbacks, and you pointed out that this isn't evidence of malevolent possession at all, which I suppose works but still makes that whole exchange pointless.

 

You also pointed out that there'd be songs about it if there was an abomination. What I didn't think to point out was that the Avvar might not want to brag about their gods dropping the ball and someone having to kill a child with their own two hands, but even without that your arguments that we'd necessarily have encountered an accidental abomination story if the Avvar had to deal with that from time to time doesn't seem like strong enough proof to say they've never had to deal with it at all. "They don't have stories about abominations going crazy and wrecking things" isn't quite as remarkable an idea as "they don't have it at all," or at least it isn't in a setting that's designed to be grimdark and have magic be a serious double-edged sword. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[leaguer of one]

I'm not sure you've proved your point. Your main point there was that a mage would know if that happened in the Avvar territory because of the Veil damage, which I don't think is supported by Redcliffe having only two Veil Tears where there's way more in the Hinterlands. (I'm only counting the ones before the Time Warp because there's way too many alternative explanations for however many you see in the Bad Future.) Then I pointed out that there's way more Veil Tears than that in the Frostbacks, and you pointed out that this isn't evidence of malevolent possession at all, which I suppose works but still makes that whole exchange pointless.

 

You also pointed out that there'd be songs about it if there was an abomination. What I didn't think to point out was that the Avvar might not want to brag about their gods dropping the ball and someone having to kill a child with their own two hands, but even without that your arguments that we'd necessarily have encountered an accidental abomination story if the Avvar had to deal with that from time to time doesn't seem like strong enough proof to say they've never had to deal with it at all. "They don't have stories about abominations going crazy and wrecking things" isn't quite as remarkable an idea as "they don't have it at all," or at least it isn't in a setting that's designed to be grimdark and have magic be a serious double-edged sword.

I never said a mage would know that it happen. I said there would be proof that it happen via a weak veal, that can be sensed by the mage and malevolent spirits around. And it would be spoken off. Everyplace that had something like that shows it in it's environment and the weakness in the veil. Redcliff my not have the environment totally changed by it but the veil is still weak there. Added weaken veils can because by malevolent magic alone so say just because the veil is weak does not mean it was caused by malevolent magic. Just because basin has rifts does not mean it case be harmful magic. With redcliff it's the case because we know the history there.

 

And the Avvar don't hide thing that happen. It's not in their nature. Sorry, but it's unnatural to there culture to hide info benevolent or malevolent. Their culture is too simple for that. So no they would not hide it.

[leaguer of one]

I could just imagine the outrage if the Harrowing was replaced by summary executions.

You mean like Harrowing is like now?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I never said a mage would know that it happen. I said there would be proof that it happen via a weak veal, that can be sensed by the mage and malevolent spirits around. And it would be spoken off. Everyplace that had something like that shows it in it's environment and the weakness in the veil. Redcliff my not have the environment totally changed by it but the veil is still weak there. Added weaken veils can because by malevolent magic alone so say just because the veil is weak does not mean it was caused by malevolent magic. Just because basin has rifts does not mean it case be harmful magic. With redcliff it's the case because we know the history there.

 

And the Avvar don't hide thing that happen. It's not in their nature. Sorry, but it's unnatural to there culture to hide info benevolent or malevolent. Their culture is too simple for that. So no they would not hide it.

I don't remember ever having the relatively weak Veil (I say "relatively weak" because the Veil as a whole is being fed through a paper-shredder at that point in the game) mentioned during In Hushed Whispers, despite logically knowing it should be there. Might be because I didn't bring Solas, since I switch pretty freely between my mages and don't remember who I brought where except that I hadn't met Dorian yet. Still, if you were right that we would have heard about a relatively weak Veil in the Frostbacks, I'd think I'd remember hearing about it in Redcliffe. Although you're right that this entire line of questioning is probably pointless because spirits coming and going is in and of itself a feature of the Frostbacks rather than a bug.

 

Do you ever have the option to ask if their system is flawless? I'm still not sure I'd trust them, since "it's unnatural to there culture to hide info benevolent or malevolent" doesn't seem to be a strong enough guarantee that I'd trust someone from this setting implicitly. (Especially since I think I remember coming across mention of an abomination who A: violated their cultural norms regarding spirits and B: tried to hide it. But even without that, this isn't Faerun. It's Thedas.) Still, unless you explicitly ask, you might not hear about it because it's so rare as to not be worth mentioning. This might be encouraging, but it's not what you said the case is.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You mean like Harrowing is like now?

Surviving the Harrowing is a thing. In fact it's rather the result everyone's hoping for since if they don't get a proven Enchanter out of it they can't ask the mage to refund their lyrium investment.