1551 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

He did grant the Enchanters the opportunity to convene and discuss the cure. 

 

In spite of his previous efforts, of course.

[Master Warder Z_]

He did grant the Enchanters the opportunity to convene and discuss the cure.

In spite of his previous efforts, of course.

Eh he put up the decision of the Knight Captain.

Not much of an effort truth be told, its one of the few faults I find with him in the novel.

Why appeal to logic from a Templar smitten with their charges? No- that decision should have never been put into her hands to begin with.

Kill all the mages there, start a few fires in the heartlands, stage a rebellion,have rumors circulate the entire party died in transit when one became an abomination.

Simple.

It prevents the whole bloody mess, or hell even less complicated- just kill them all and have no story. Let the mages and Templars alike think what they want, it gives them something besides the situation at hand to ponder.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

"Don't say no" is not the same as "can't say no".

Cole is repeating what a Templar said word by word. Therefore, the Templar was simply under the impression they don't make decisions which is untrue.

 

Why do people think the templer was taking to a tranquil?

[The Baconer]

Why appeal to logic from a Templar smitten with their charges? No- that decision should have never been put into her hands to begin with.

Kill all the mages there, start a few fires in the heartlands, stage a rebellion,have rumors circulate the entire party died in transit when one became an abomination.

Simple.

It prevents the whole bloody mess, or hell even less complicated- just kill them all and have no story. Let the mages and Templars alike think what they want, it gives them something besides the situation at hand to ponder.

 

That would definitely be more along the level of competence I'd expect from Lambert.

[TheKomandorShepard]

...No, it means it was black before he go there.

Watch the video  I posted. he said he "found". Found does not mean it changed.

Yes, and he know it was black before he got there there because hey omniscience!

Once again you are talking illogical bs, how in first place how he could know it was black before he got there and "found" what color it was...

[Master Warder Z_]

That would definitely be more along the level of competence I'd expect from Lambert.

Meh Gaider wrote his book

[Kakistos_]

1) So what if Rivain trades with other countries? How is that any indication of the actual strength of its monarchy or relative cohesion of its society. All that proves is that Rivain has merchants capable of crossing borders. 

 

2) According to WoT, the Rivaini Monarchy are Chantry faithful but "progressive" in their beliefs out of necessity. In other words they don't exactly have the means to enforce their will. Strong Monarchy you say?

 

3) According the Seers and the Allsmeet, that bi-yearly trip where all the Seers meet up to pledge fealty to the Queen, is also used by the Seers to settle others' disputes in a binding fashion. Funny, if the Queen really ruled, you'd think she'd be the one to have the power to settle disputes in a binding fashion. I guess the seers are just being nice right? I mean, since they're already there pledging fealty they might as well just do the Queen a solid and settle any matters of import for her right? Looks to me like the pledging fealty is a façade for getting down to the real business of running the country.  The alternative is that Seers make cross country trips every 6 months for what is essentially shytes and giggles. As opposed to say doing so individually when a new seer is appointed, or every year, or even every five.  

 

4) When you're talking about Armadas, I assume you mean the Felicisima Armada right? The notorious group of pirates operating out of Llemorryn. "Some people say he runs the Armada. He doesn't. No one does. The Armada is a collection of ships, and each one is like a nation unto itself- its own rules, its own people, its own leader." Yup, I'm certain the Monarchy has them all at their beck and call. 

 

5) Rivain is fractured. It consists of three distinct cultures with divergent, sometimes antithetical beliefs, the Andrastians, the Pantheists, and the Qun adherents that have managed to remain a single country by essentially just ignoring each other. There's a reason the Circle of Dairsmuid was described by its own First Enchanter as a façade to appease the the Chantry. That's because the devoutly Andrastian Monarchy doesn't have the actual power to do any better than put up a show for appearances. 

1. Rivain trading with other countries was just one of the several points I brought up to dispel what I believe to be a false picture of Rivain being weak and therefore worthy of dismissal as a working example of a society with Mage Freedom. And considering that some of their exports are favored by Empress Celene it would seem that their traders do a little more than just cross borders.

 

2. That they must bend their faith a little does not prove that they are weak nor that they are incapable of enforcing their rule. It suggests that they have a working relationship with the various ideologies and backgrounds of the people that make up Rivain, otherwise why compromise?. This is not unlike many modern real-life governments. Rivain is unique as a country of Thedas in that it is a melting pot of various cultures, races and religions including Qunari, the Quin, Seers, natural order pantheism, Andrastian and the Dalish and their Gods. It does without saying that the monarchs would have to be open minded.

 

3. The Seers settling disputes is no different than the Council of Heralds in Orlais settling disputes or the Landsmeet in Ferelden. Division and disseminations of power are present within all governments. No one questions Celene's soverninity when it is possible for the Council of Heralds to overrule her decisions or the Ferelden Monarch's who can similarly be overruled by nobles in a landsmeet, why the double standard for the Queen of Rivain?

 

4. I concede this point. I had forgotten that they were pirates.

 

5. Rivain is not fractured.  Their cultures are not antithetical according to Genetivi. He even encounters a Seer leading people who follow the Qun. "I spent the night in the home of Vindaar's matriarch, who introduced herself only as, "Seer". When I tried to regale my hostess with the tale of my Qunari assailants, I discovered something. Qunari, Seer said, are people who follow the Qun. Her people." - Codex Entry: Tal-Vashoth. Rivain also has a peaceful relationship with the semi-permanent Dalish Elves.

 

As I stated earlier Rivain is unique and clearly not plagued by the strife we have seen produced by the conflicts of these various groups but it is not as if we have never seen cooperation and tolerance either. I do not dispute that the Circle in Rivain was a facade. I dispute that it showed weakness on the part of the monarchy. I see it as a savvy compromise. Consider the two sides in this situation: The Rivani who have had free Mages and revered their Seers for hundreds of years before the Chantry and the Chantry who's views on Free Mages are well established and who have the nasty habit of spreading their religion by force.

 

I don't really see how one could interpret finding middle ground between these groups and concealing the details of how free the Mages are from the Templars for hundreds of years as weakness. This is assuming alot as we don't have any details as to how things went down. I also don't understand why you assume the "devout" Andrastians in Rivain agree with every hardline Chantry tenant on the handling of Magic. Anti-Mage sentiment often wins the day but the Chantry is not a monolith.

 

Some of the most faithful Andrastians we have encountered, Leliana, Cassandra and Momma Giselle, had very progressive views on Magic and Mages. Consider also the environment the Rivaini Andrastians grew up and lived in. Mages to them are not that group of scary people that live isolated in a Tower but friends, family and neighbors. Mages in Rivain are fully integrated into society, I find it very unlikely that Rivaini Andrastians would share the harsher views on Mages that Andrastians in other countries do.

 

Also part of the problem is that the "Circles or no Circles" debate is also inextricably tied into religious faith. Different faith groups have different practices when it comes to dealing with magic and those who can use it, and there is little sense arguing with the religious mindset.

 

Thing is, we've never seen what happens when mages are treated like regular people. The three systems in Thedas that deal with it are: Tevinter, practically worshiping powerful mages; the Qunari, who leash and abuse mages (with their consent), and the Andrastians, who are closer to the Qunari than they like to claim.

 

And Tevinter isn't ruled by mages because they're mages: It's ruled by them because they're members of the nobility and always have been. It's a semantic difference, but it isn't much different than Orlais when push comes to shove. The mages of southern Thedas will never become like the magisters because they come from all different walks of life (but most of them commoners), and don't have the political backing or lineage to really rule over anything legally(without demonic intervention, anyway). The only exception to this is, of course: Vivienne. And she got there by sleeping around and intimidating everyone. Not exactly the Chantry's "Poster-Mage," for all that she likes to claim otherwise.

I agree but will add that we have seen what happens when Mages are treated like normal people. We see first hand in the Jaws of Hakkon that Mages are assets to their society among the Avvar and then there are others counted by the devs: "They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Right after another assassination attempt of the Divine by a blood mage who happened to be a Enchanter at the White Spire, oh yes that's the perfect time to give into the extremists.

 

I find it hilarious that there were mages gunning for the Divine, considering how much she was hoping to do for them.

 

Decent counter-example, I guess, to people who say that "Well if we stop mistreating them, everything will be alright."

[leaguer of one]

Yes, and he know it was black before he got there there because hey omniscience!

Once again you are talking illogical bs, how in first place how he could know it was black before he got there and "found" what color it was...

What logic is this?

 

Let's say you walk into a you never been in room ans touch nothing as you walk in. The rooms a mess. Do you a) make the mess by walking into the room or b)was the room a mess before you got there?

 

It's b ) the room was a mess before you got there. Same case with Cory and the block city. If it turn black as he walked in he would of said it turn black as he walked.

 

Try again.

[leaguer of one]

I find it hilarious that there were mages gunning for the Divine, considering how much she was hoping to do for them.

 

Decent counter-example, I guess, to people who say that "Well if we stop mistreating them, everything will be alright."

The last Divine before the last one crapped her pants when she saw a mages and that was not because she was old.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Why do people think the templer was taking to a tranquil?

The Templar basically outright stated it?

[leaguer of one]

The Templar basically outright stated it?

Serious. it makes no logical sense a templer would say that to threaten a traqual. They have no emotion to be intimated with. Any statement could only work with people with the emotion of fear that tranquil do not have. He's saying this to a mage. He's saying "do what I say no matter how horrible it is or I'm making you traquil" indirectly.

[TheKomandorShepard]

What logic is this?

 

Let's say you walk into a you never been in room ans touch nothing as you walk in. The rooms a mess. Do you a) make the mess by walking into the room or b)was the room a mess before you got there?

 

It's the room was a mess before you got there. Same case with Cory and the block city. If it turn black as he walked in he would of said it turn black as he walked.

 

Try again.

It is for certain better than your logic that he knew city was black before he got there but at the same time he thought it was golden...

In first place the fade and black city aren't real world so horrible comparison unless you want to tell me you can corrupt your room...

Second, city could have been corrupted by them in the moment they got there and corypheus thinks it already was black because all he knows is what city was once he saw it ,once again in first place corypheus had no idea city was black before he acctualy got there.  

[leaguer of one]

It is for certain better than your logic that he knew city was black before he got there but at the same time he thought it was golden...

In first place the fade and black city aren't real world so horrible comparison unless you want to tell me you can corrupt your room...

In first place city could have been corrupted by them in the moment they got there and corypheus thinks it already was black because all he knows is what city was once he saw it ,once again in first place corypheus had no idea city was black before he acctualy got there.  

Real world or dream world makes no difference. It would not change by him just entering. Even if you're going by what the chanrty says the chantry states the city changed as they  explored the city. So you're contradicting yourself.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I agree but will add that we have seen what happens when Mages are treated like normal people. We see first hand in the Jaws of Hakkon that Mages are assets to their society among the Avvar and then there are others counted by the devs: "They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Arguably no worse off. And the arguments aren't that strong in the case of the Dalish, since their mage system's failure can mean the annihilation of an entire clan and some clans practice exiling mage children into what is basically certain death barring outside intervention. (Not to mention that Inquisition is the first game in which the Dalish clan that can be wiped out to a man isn't in that position entirely due to the Keepers being irresponsible with their magic.)

 

Nor do I think I wouldn't have an opinion if I had to choose between being a Tevinter with no idea where on the social ladder I'd end up or an Orlesian with no idea where on the social ladder I end up. For the most part there's little to choose, but let's not skate over the problem of leaders irresponsible to those they govern being mages in a magic system where blood magic is so broken. Many Orlesian nobles are no doubt willing to let a servant die for their own gain, but there's only certain situations where they benefit from it. Just imagine an Orlesian Lord who can build a bridge or summon a large thunderstorm over a rival's yatch or shield themselves against an upcoming assassination attempt by killing a servant. You are now imagining a Tevinter Magister. (On a side note, I could swear I've pointed this out to you before. I don't think you've ever adequately answered it.)

 

Now we don't know much about Rivain. I guess. We have Word Of Gaider that heavily implies they have an abomination problem worse than the rest of Thedas, but that's about it. But let's also not stake over that. Entire cities have fallen to abominations. Rivain considers them to be the equivalent of a natural disaster due to their scale. It seems like trying to control them (or at least cause them to happen somewhere where there aren't civilians) is a pretty understandable desire.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Serious. it makes no logical sense a templer would say that to threaten a traqual. They have no emotion to be intimated with. Any statement could only work with people with the emotion of fear that tranquil do not have. He's saying this to a mage. He's saying "do what I say no matter how horrible it is or I'm making you traquil" indirectly.

It sounded like a threat to you? It sounded to me more like he was gloating before making the tranquil do what he wanted.

[leaguer of one]

It sounded like a threat to you? It sounded to me more like he was gloating before making the tranquil do what he wanted.

Nope, that's a threat. Just as bad anyway.

 

It reminds be of what Templer Alrik said to that mage girl in Anders quest in da2 of act 2.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Real world or dream world makes no difference. It would not change by him just entering. Even if you're going by what the chanrty says the chantry states the city changed as they  explored the city. So you're contradicting yourself.

It makes difference because the fade works on different rules than real world ,using your example mess couldn't just appear from nowhere upon entering the room in real world when possibly in the fade mess could appear out of nowhere upon entering the room.

 

From what i see in this codex most tales tale they corrupted city by their presence, of course chantry version it was corrupted after they meet maker, and how im contradicting myself unless you want to tell me that i wrote chantry version... 

[leaguer of one]

It makes difference because the fade works on different rules than real world ,using your example mess couldn't just appear from nowhere upon entering the room in real world when possibly in the fade mess could appear out of nowhere upon entering the room.

 

From what i see in this codex most tales tale they corrupted city by their presence, of course chantry version it was corrupted after they meet maker, and how im contradicting myself unless you want to tell me that i was writing chantry version... 

Agein, not the same case being that not once had the fade ever reacted like that. To change before a person notices is not what the fade does.

And you are using the wrong sourse for this info.

 

 

The very fist words of dao form the chant of light which you are basing this info off. By the very words of the chant the magister enter the cite saw it's glory and then changes.

 

If you are going by what the chantry says then you are contradicting you're self.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Agein, not the same case being that not once had the fade ever reacted like that. To change before a person notices is not what the fade does.

And you are using the wrong sourse for this info.

 

 

The very fist words of dao form the chant of light which you are basing this info off. By the very words of the chant the magister enter the cite saw it's glory and then changes.

 

If you are going by what the chantry says then you are contradicting you're self.

 

And how do you know what the fade does, it seems that you have mastered knowledge about the fade and black city and know everything about it.

I based that maker could have do that on chantry version ,but i suggests to read what im talking about what im talking about is that magisters could have corrupted city simple with their presence ,maker or no,Also once again they don't disprove that it was maker doing as chant says.

 

So in first place pretty much you are saying that i contradict myself because well i once based possibility of something on part of chant , so pretty much if use chant as one of sources that magisters went to the black city im contradicting myself?    

[Illegitimus]

And will you disown the giver? Or spurn His gift, and count it a misfortune?

 

Uh...dude.  Your gift is ticking.  

[dragonflight288]

I'm a few pages behind, but I wanted to respond to this.

 

 

I imagine this is a screenshot from right before she kills him? See, I didn't get that scene because I said "do with him what you will" and it turns out her natural reaction to this is to verbally destroy him. She takes some cheap shots, but he's not dead at the end. And even if "do with him what you will" turned out to be burning his balls off and letting him die of the infection, you can't say this is the same as randomly killing people in the streets. He tried to kill the person she wanted an alliance with, at a party designed to facilitate that alliance.

 

Some party banter with Cole revelas that before the Inquisitor even showed up that Vivienne manipulated the marquis to attack the Inquisitor because he insulted her, and then was perfectly willing to follow through with whatever the Inquisitor decided to show off her power and her own level of importance. 

 

And quite frankly, even if her natural inclination is to let him live but shamed, it still doesn't change the fact that a mage can kill a noble man, and a Chevalier to boot if her dressing him down means anything. 

 

Vivienne may be in less danger of becoming an abomination because of her attitude, but she is just as dangerous due to her willingness to play the game in Orlais, manipulate people and treat them as tools. Blackmail, murder, corruption, she's eyeball deep in it. When Cassandra complained about all the underhanded dealings in the Winter Palace, Vivienne dismisses it as just part of the game, even the servants being killed.

 

She may not be an abomination or anything similar, but she's not a paragon of virtue either, and willingly plays a game that got tens of thousands of elves killed by Celene in order to keep up appearances. 

 

I'd say she's actually in a position to do a lot more harm over a period of time than any abomination met in any of the games thus far. 

[Arshei]

Maybe the magic is dangerous for all.

But no one can deny, the friendship is magic.

[Master Warder Z_]

The ****

[leaguer of one]

And how do you know what the fade does, it seems that you have mastered knowledge about the fade and black city and know everything about it.

I based that maker could have do that on chantry version ,but i suggests to read what im talking about what im talking about is that magisters could have corrupted city simple with their presence ,maker or no,Also once again they don't disprove that it was maker doing as chant says.

 

So in first place pretty much you are saying that i contradict myself because well i once based possibility of something on part of chant , so pretty much if use chant as one of sources that magisters went to the black city im contradicting myself?    

1. Been their so many time with these games. Never did it change as we walked in.

 

2. No, it's the part you say it change the instant they walk in. The chant does not say that. If you're going to us the chant of light to prove you're point, use what it says and no make stuff up. You ether are now say the chantry is right and what they say in the chant is right, making what you say wrong about how the city changed. Or you say how you think the city changed is right, meaning your saying how chantry says  the city changed is wrong.