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[MisterJB]

That... scares me. I still think she's in a lot of ways less dangerous than an abomination because at least she doesn't pick her victims completely at random and she knows the meaning of restraint, but... dude.

I'd have a bit more insight into characters if I hadn't picked a fighting style for my Inquisitor that makes Cole redundant, wouldn't I?

You're telling me. That was the type of scene one expects to witness in Tevinter.
Vivienne is precisely the type of mage Pro-Templars warn about. Except she is completely on our side.

[Shienis]

You're telling me. That was the type of scene one expects to witness in Tevinter.
Vivienne is precisely the type of mage Pro-Templars warn about. Except she is completely on our side.

 

She's on the side of those who currently hold more power. Should the tides really change in favour for the mages, I believe she would start talking differently and manipulate everyone into believing the whole mage rebellion for freedom was her idea.

[Lumix19]

She's on the side of those who currently hold more power. Should the tides really change in favour for the mages, I believe she would start talking differently and manipulate everyone into believing the whole mage rebellion for freedom was her idea.

Exactly. She's on nobody's side but her own. When she becomes the Divine she's more than willing to turn the Templars into her personal tool, what she goes on to do with that tool is a big question mark.

 

You're telling me. That was the type of scene one expects to witness in Tevinter.
Vivienne is precisely the type of mage Pro-Templars warn about. Except she is completely on our side.

That's what concerns me actually. She is so unashamedly Tevinter-like in her use of her powers yet she's risen so high in the Circle simply because she appears to be on the Templar's side.

[leaguer of one]

She's on the side of those who currently hold more power. Should the tides really change in favour for the mages, I believe she would start talking differently and manipulate everyone into believing the whole mage rebellion for freedom was her idea.

 

 

Exactly. She's on nobody's side but her own. When she becomes the Divine she's more than willing to turn the Templars into her personal tool, what she goes on to do with that tool is a big question mark.

 

That's what concerns me actually. She is so unashamedly Tevinter-like in her use of her powers yet she's risen so high in the Circle simply because she appears to be on the Templar's side.

I'm glad so else sees that her rule is like setting up a second Tevinter. She after her own power and at the same time making the mages a stronger political power. Even though she runs the circle the same she is basically turning the gilded cage the circle was to a gated community for the one the works with her. 

 

It's a flipped version of tevinter but with the mages working together instead of the dominate ones fighting each other for power. And if influence of the game get into the circle it soon will be the same.

[Illegitimus]

She's on the side of those who currently hold more power. Should the tides really change in favour for the mages, I believe she would start talking differently and manipulate everyone into believing the whole mage rebellion for freedom was her idea.

 

She wouldn't though.  She isn't flexible, she doesn't shift with the wind.  There's a reason why she prides herself in being called the "lady of iron".   The only tools she has in her political repertoire are persistence, intimidation and ruthless destruction.  The abilities to compromise and retreat are missing.  If the tides really change in favour for the mages, she'd find some new ruler to attach herself to and start convincing him to build tide walls.  

[leaguer of one]

She wouldn't though.  She isn't flexible, she doesn't shift with the wind.  There's a reason why she prides herself in being called the "lady of iron".   The only tools she has in her political repertoire are persistence, intimidation and ruthless destruction.  The abilities to compromise and retreat are missing.  If the tides really change in favour for the mages, she'd find some new ruler to attach herself to and start convincing him to build tide walls.  

Sorry. You don't get it at all. If she was inflexible she would never of gone with the inquision or be out and about with it's leader fighting in the feild.

 

Vive bend to power. That can't be argued.

 

She the iron lady to her equals and lessers not to people who have more power then her or can give her more power. 

[The Baconer]

Anyway, she had the advantage of terrain and surprise. And he was wearing finery and the sword was likely meant for a duel. Armament is important. The World of Thedas describes how weapons laced with lyrium "shatter spells like glass".

 

Note that said weapon was forged of pure Lyrium, not laced with it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Exactly. She's on nobody's side but her own. When she becomes the Divine she's more than willing to turn the Templars into her personal tool, what she goes on to do with that tool is a big question mark.

I understand we already pretty well know at least where this starts: she forces the mages back into the Circles which she so easily manipulated and gives them new freedoms.

 

I will confess that I'm not sure what comes next and am a bit nervous about Vivienne. She is afraid of demons and of becoming an abomination, which I credit. She argues the necessity of the Circles, but that they aren't completely perfect. Both true, unless you care to risk finding spirits to do the Avvar method. She can become Divine despite being a mage (which does concern me) and forces the mages back into the Circles (which I think was necessary) while keeping the Templars strictly under her own control (which also scares me, but on the other hand we've seen what happens when the Divine doesn't.) So, on the whole, she could be either exactly what I want in most respects with the coincidence of being a mage, or she could be Tevinter under another name. Even if it's the former, we have no idea what the precedent she set is going to mean way into the future.

[Iakus]

Vivienne turning the Southern Chantry into another Tevinter is a risk.  But there are several things that should prevent it.

 

FIrst off, she recognizes the need for policing magic.  She's very much aware of the risk of magical abuse and keeps Templars around to prevent them (with far more oversight of course)

 

Second, she is deathly opposed to blood magic and demon summoning, two things that are practically recreations in Tevinter.

 

Third, the very culture of southern Thedas would oppose such a change.  That Vivienne becomes Divine and maintains her control is shocking enough.  I do not see mages in many other positions of power in the near future.  IF ti comes, it will be a far more gradual process.  Unless Tevinter invades and takes over, of course...

[leaguer of one]

I understand we already pretty well know at least where this starts: she forces the mages back into the Circles which she so easily manipulated and gives them new freedoms.

 

I will confess that I'm not sure what comes next and am a bit nervous about Vivienne. She is afraid of demons and of becoming an abomination, which I credit. She argues the necessity of the Circles, but that they aren't completely perfect. Both true, unless you care to risk finding spirits to do the Avvar method. She can become Divine despite being a mage (which does concern me) and forces the mages back into the Circles (which I think was necessary) while keeping the Templars strictly under her own control (which also scares me, but on the other hand we've seen what happens when the Divine doesn't.) So, on the whole, she could be either exactly what I want in most respects with the coincidence of being a mage, or she could be Tevinter under another name. Even if it's the former, we have no idea what the precedent she set is going to mean way into the future.

Way it see it. She's  just turn the circle into a gated community with guards mean to do more harm to outsiders. With her mages have a political influence and can now use the fiances of the chantry to live it up if she wills it.  She pretty much turning mages into a new elitist class.

[leaguer of one]

Vivienne turning the Southern Chantry into another Tevinter is a risk.  But there are several things that should prevent it.

 

FIrst off, she recognizes the need for policing magic.  She's very much aware of the risk of magical abuse and keeps Templars around to prevent them (with far more oversight of course)

 

Second, she is deathly opposed to blood magic and demon summoning, two things that are practically recreations in Tevinter.

 

Third, the very culture of southern Thedas would oppose such a change.  That Vivienne becomes Divine and maintains her control is shocking enough.  I do not see mages in many other positions of power in the near future.  IF ti comes, it will be a far more gradual process.  Unless Tevinter invades and takes over, of course...

The issue of tevinter are not magic....it's social political. It the fact mage have all the power and non- mages don't. Now with her the mages are now a political power that can influence near everyone and getting free money from common folk via the chantry and if said common folk get upset by it templers not sent on them.....

 

It's just tevinter but with no infighting yet and blood magic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Way it see it. She's  just turn the circle into a gated community with guards mean to do more harm to outsiders. With her mages have a political influence and can now use the fiances of the chantry to live it up if she wills it.  She pretty much turning mages into a new elitist class.

In some ways, they already were the elites. While I agree that the rape thing and the fact that Meredith existed were a bit of a downside, the other pro-Templars aren't wrong to say that the mages have always been guaranteed three hots and a cot and an education besides. The guards being meant at least in part to keep others out isn't new either. And those who knew how to heal injuries and diseases wound up with nobles owing them their lives. If Vivienne cuts down on the rape and moderates the priests' sermons so that Keili's view of magic is no longer consistent with the way the Circles' priests' interpret the Chant, the Circles could become pretty nice. Which is just how I've wanted it this whole time because the mages being miserable benefits nobody and leads to exactly the sort of idiocy Uldred and Fiona got into.

 

That the Divine is a mage is most of what troubles me here, since while I have no objection to the mages having all of what I just said, you're not wrong that she could be giving them more, and again: what sort of precedent does this set?

[Shienis]

I'm glad so else sees that her rule is like setting up a second Tevinter. She after her own power and at the same time making the mages a stronger political power. Even though she runs the circle the same she is basically turning the gilded cage the circle was to a gated community for the one the works with her. 

 

It's a flipped version of tevinter but with the mages working together instead of the dominate ones fighting each other for power. And if influence of the game get into the circle it soon will be the same.

 

I don't think she's actively trying to create her own version of Tevinter, though if somehow that situation happened, she wouldn't grieve. And besides, if she's the only mage with power, it makes her exceptional, special, it brings more attention to her. More mages in politics means she'll stop being special. As long as it's beneficial for her, she won't create new Tevinter. She might inspire others who might do that in the next few generations, though. And that's what's really scary.

 

She wouldn't though.  She isn't flexible, she doesn't shift with the wind.  There's a reason why she prides herself in being called the "lady of iron".   The only tools she has in her political repertoire are persistence, intimidation and ruthless destruction.  The abilities to compromise and retreat are missing.  If the tides really change in favour for the mages, she'd find some new ruler to attach herself to and start convincing him to build tide walls.  

 

It is one of possibilities. That depends on whether there would be a lord powerful enough to have some meaning and how much the tides change. She's smart enough to calculate when it's wiser or more profitable to stay as she is and when to turn.

[leaguer of one]

I don't think she's actively trying to create her own version of Tevinter, though if somehow that situation happened, she wouldn't grieve. And besides, if she's the only mage with power, it makes her exceptional, special, it brings more attention to her. More mages in politics means she'll stop being special. As long as it's beneficial for her, she won't create new Tevinter. She might inspire others who might do that in the next few generations, though. And that's what's really scary.

 

 

There is no way mages won't be political at this point. she already open that box. She the time who would rather not destroy what she can use. She as a master of the game  can easilly control and use any mage or mages who want  to be political out side the circle. And it's clear she wants a class based society similar to tevinter. it's how she thinks.

[leaguer of one]

In some ways, they already were the elites. While I agree that the rape thing and the fact that Meredith existed were a bit of a downside, the other pro-Templars aren't wrong to say that the mages have always been guaranteed three hots and a cot and an education besides. The guards being meant at least in part to keep others out isn't new either. And those who knew how to heal injuries and diseases wound up with nobles owing them their lives. If Vivienne cuts down on the rape and moderates the priests' sermons so that Keili's view of magic is no longer consistent with the way the Circles' priests' interpret the Chant, the Circles could become pretty nice. Which is just how I've wanted it this whole time because the mages being miserable benefits nobody and leads to exactly the sort of idiocy Uldred and Fiona got into.

 

That the Divine is a mage is most of what troubles me here, since while I have no objection to the mages having all of what I just said, you're not wrong that she could be giving them more, and again: what sort of precedent does this set?

Mage were not elites before unless the came from nobles families with power or had the support of nobles. over a sparse few had that. The mages in general had very little say with what happen to them and the out side world. They could only be an elite class if they had control. the mages of the old circle had no over themselve. With Vivianne they have that, at least what Vive allows them and they can influence other politically.

 

What you are describing are not elites but birds in a glided cage.

[Dean_the_Young]

It is one of possibilities. That depends on whether there would be a lord powerful enough to have some meaning and how much the tides change. She's smart enough to calculate when it's wiser or more profitable to stay as she is and when to turn.

 

I hear this charge from time to time, but I've rarely heard much reason to believe in it. The argument that Vivienne will inevitably jump ship as the tide changes is big on inevitability because, hey, politician and the Game, but very little on background or history.

 

There are a significant number of points in the series in which Vivienne's politics aren't turned by the tides of the moment, and her loyalty/favor not tied to the patron of the hour, and neither a fair-weather ally nor an ideologue of least resistance.

 

Vivienne's views are consistent across the game and our knowledge of her, past and present. She expresses and holds them before the rebellion (Cole's flashback insights), she holds them in the face of the rebellion when her power base of 'representative of the mages' is currently in revolt, she holds them when she is a member of the Inquisition, and she holds them if she gains real political power. She doesn't mollify or change them to gain favor- no matter how much the Inquisitor agrees, or disagrees, or actively opposes, Vivienne's expressed and practiced views are consistent whether she's in power or not, whether they're popular or not.

 

This is not what one would expect from a semi-sycophantic 'curry views to the current powers' suggestion, or the 'she'll change it soon enough.' Unlike, say, bloody mood swing Leliana, who's undergone more than a few ideological conversions over her career. Or ever ever-amiable no-drama companions like Garrus from Mass Effect, who's as likable (and likes the player) no matter what the PC does.

 

 

Nor does Vivienne have any exceptional history of jumping ship for higher tides- if anything, she has a history of jumping for the underdogs and making them into positions of power. Most notably- Court Enchanter, once a magical fool, turned into a position of relevance. Her dalliance with the Duke, while eventually an independent power base, was initially a drag on both of them if WOT 2 is what I've heard. She reaches out to the Inquisition when it is still a minow in Thedasian politics, unlike the still-standing Chantry which is ripe for political feuding and power grabs. When faced with a practically unkillable hyper-magister who, the future tells us, can fight and beat Thedas, she sticks by even though there's no clear way to beat him.

 

Vivienne clearly isn't risk-adverse: she takes a number of gambles, and efforts, that pay off in the long-run but not because they obviously would. She'll take risks, and make the most of them, and appreciates the power from them.

 

But what of the things she doesn't do? Or rather, where are her betrayals for the advantage, present or prospective? In the face of a Mage Revolution that offers the 'chaos is a ladder' sort of careeer advancement, Vivienne doesn't ditch the collapsing Circle system for a chance to play Revolutionary Leader (a role her political acuemen, and common sense, would put her well better than Fiona). Nor does she play Collaborator with the Templars, which one would suspect if she simply trying not to be dragged down. In the face of a 'join us or die' rebel wave, she stands fast- in the face of a pending Templar victory as the war sees the mages driven to Redcliffe and nowhere else, she isn't working with or for the Templars to be on the winning side.

 

Vivienne is as stalwart an ally for the Inquisition as any other we find. There's not even a hint of her being involved or even interested in schemes to break with its greater goals: no one is seeking her out to play a part in the Orlais plotline as her ticket back to the Court Enchanter position, she is not seeking out any Venatori in hopes of betraying the Inquisitor and setting herself up as a Priest-Queen of her own corner of Thedas, she doesn't express any interest in Corypheus despite him being established as having the means, intent, and even future-foreknowledge success of actually conquering Thedas.

 

If there's any 'Lord powerful enough' to make the tides change and encouraging a jumping of ship, it's Corypheus. But she doesn't.

 

And, to my knowledge, never has. So why the exceptional suspicion?

[leaguer of one]

I hear this charge from time to time, but I've rarely heard much reason to believe in it. The argument that Vivienne will inevitably jump ship as the tide changes is big on inevitability because, hey, politician and the Game, but very little on background or history.

 

There are a significant number of points in the series in which Vivienne's politics aren't turned by the tides of the moment, and her loyalty/favor not tied to the patron of the hour, and neither a fair-weather ally nor an ideologue of least resistance.

 

Vivienne's views are consistent across the game and our knowledge of her, past and present. She expresses and holds them before the rebellion (Cole's flashback insights), she holds them in the face of the rebellion when her power base of 'representative of the mages' is currently in revolt, she holds them when she is a member of the Inquisition, and she holds them if she gains real political power. She doesn't mollify or change them to gain favor- no matter how much the Inquisitor agrees, or disagrees, or actively opposes, Vivienne's expressed and practiced views are consistent whether she's in power or not, whether they're popular or not.

 

This is not what one would expect from a semi-sycophantic 'curry views to the current powers' suggestion, or the 'she'll change it soon enough.' Unlike, say, bloody mood swing Leliana, who's undergone more than a few ideological conversions over her career. Or ever ever-amiable no-drama companions like Garrus from Mass Effect, who's as likable (and likes the player) no matter what the PC does.

 

 

Nor does Vivienne have any exceptional history of jumping ship for higher tides- if anything, she has a history of jumping for the underdogs and making them into positions of power. Most notably- Court Enchanter, once a magical fool, turned into a position of relevance. Her dalliance with the Duke, while eventually an independent power base, was initially a drag on both of them if WOT 2 is what I've heard. She reaches out to the Inquisition when it is still a minow in Thedasian politics, unlike the still-standing Chantry which is ripe for political feuding and power grabs. When faced with a practically unkillable hyper-magister who, the future tells us, can fight and beat Thedas, she sticks by even though there's no clear way to beat him.

 

Vivienne clearly isn't risk-adverse: she takes a number of gambles, and efforts, that pay off in the long-run but not because they obviously would. She'll take risks, and make the most of them, and appreciates the power from them.

 

But what of the things she doesn't do? Or rather, where are her betrayals for the advantage, present or prospective? In the face of a Mage Revolution that offers the 'chaos is a ladder' sort of careeer advancement, Vivienne doesn't ditch the collapsing Circle system for a chance to play Revolutionary Leader (a role her political acuemen, and common sense, would put her well better than Fiona). Nor does she play Collaborator with the Templars, which one would suspect if she simply trying not to be dragged down. In the face of a 'join us or die' rebel wave, she stands fast- in the face of a pending Templar victory as the war sees the mages driven to Redcliffe and nowhere else, she isn't working with or for the Templars to be on the winning side.

 

Vivienne is as stalwart an ally for the Inquisition as any other we find. There's not even a hint of her being involved or even interested in schemes to break with its greater goals: no one is seeking her out to play a part in the Orlais plotline as her ticket back to the Court Enchanter position, she is not seeking out any Venatori in hopes of betraying the Inquisitor and setting herself up as a Priest-Queen of her own corner of Thedas, she doesn't express any interest in Corypheus despite him being established as having the means, intent, and even future-foreknowledge success of actually conquering Thedas.

 

If there's any 'Lord powerful enough' to make the tides change and encouraging a jumping of ship, it's Corypheus. But she doesn't.

 

And, to my knowledge, never has. So why the exceptional suspicion?

Sure, she is pro circle but you can't say she does not bend to the patron of the hour. Before is was the empress and now it's with the inquisitor. We can at least say she bends to the patron which has the most power and which she has role in voicing her views with.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Sure, she is pro circle but you can't say she does not bend to the patron of the hour. Before is was the empress and now it's with the inquisitor. We can at least say she bends to the patron which has the most power and which she has role in voicing her views with.

notice how she doesn't care if celene dies and has already taken steps to ensure she still has power in Gaspard's court. She plans on becoming magic advisor to celene if Leliana is divine. She clearly has plans for power no matter the situation

[Dean_the_Young]

Sure, she is pro circle but you can't say she does not bend to the patron of the hour. Before is was the empress and now it's with the inquisitor. We can at least say she bends to the patron which has the most power and which she has role in voicing her views with.

 

Celene was neutral towards the Circle conflict entirely, to the point of letting mages and Templars fight it out rather than intervene, while the Inquisitor can be actively anti-Circle. In neither case do we have any example of Vivienne currying her pro-Circle views to reflect the patron's views.

 

Saying Vivienne bends to her patron's views is like saying the player bends to all the failings and differences of everyone they can't/don't kill. Vivienne isn't omnipotent- but her lack of open rebellion in the face of disagreement is no more capitulation of her views than any other political dispute.

[Dean_the_Young]

notice how she doesn't care if celene dies and has already taken steps to ensure she still has power in Gaspard's court. She plans on becoming magic advisor to celene if Leliana is divine. She clearly has plans for power no matter the situation

 

You say that like it's a bad thing, but where's the sin in that?

 

Vivienne is a political opportunist- that's not in dispute. What's lacking is the support that she creates opportunity by knifing her allies in the back. By the time Celene can die, Celene has already sundered her political ties with Vivienne... and it's the Inquisitor who makes the call to let her die or not.

 

Why shouldn't Vivienne rebuild ties if Celene lives... or make new ties with Gaspard, who will only come to power if we follow Leliana's advice in the first place? Is she supposed to sink for Celene's ship when Celene already threw her out in favor of Morrigan?

[leaguer of one]

You say that like it's a bad thing, but where's the sin in that?

 

Vivienne is a political opportunist- that's not in dispute. What's lacking is the support that she creates opportunity by knifing her allies in the back. By the time Celene can die, Celene has already sundered her political ties with Vivienne... and it's the Inquisitor who makes the call to let her die or not.

 

Why shouldn't Vivienne rebuild ties if Celene lives... or make new ties with Gaspard, who will only come to power if we follow Leliana's advice in the first place? Is she supposed to sink for Celene's ship when Celene already threw her out in favor of Morrigan?

No one is say it's a bad thing. We are just saying what her nature is. Learning her nature shows how she will rule if Divine. It's does not make her good or bad just hard to trust and read.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

notice how she doesn't care if celene dies and has already taken steps to ensure she still has power in Gaspard's court. She plans on becoming magic advisor to celene if Leliana is divine. She clearly has plans for power no matter the situation

That's not the same as compromising her basic principles, though. There's room for her to be willing to change political affiliations yet not willing to bend on the things she truly cares about.

[Dean_the_Young]

No one is say it's a bad thing. We are just saying what her nature is. Learning her nature shows how she will rule if Divine. It's does not make her good or bad just hard to trust and read.

 

Any post that starts 'notice how much someone doesn't care' in response to a partial rebuttal of 'she bends to the patron's preferences' is not raising it as a good thing.

 

Aside from the inaccuracy of what you're claiming her nature is... it doesn't even apply as a mater of trust. Vivienne was never Celene's emotional support device, nor was there ever any expectation that she should be- they had a professional relationship, and one that was distant by Celene's own decision.

 

Vivienne's reaction to Celene's death- respectful, pragmatic, and above all honest- are exactly what you're accusing her of not expressing. In what strange place does someone being honest and open about their reasons and reasonings- of a respectful but non-emotional relationship now passed- make someone harder to trust and read?

 

The alternative to Vivienne saying she's not moved to tears is to, well, claim she is being moved to tears. Which would be deceitful. Which is what she's being accused for not being enough, apparently.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Celene was neutral towards the Circle conflict entirely, to the point of letting mages and Templars fight it out rather than intervene, while the Inquisitor can be actively anti-Circle. In neither case do we have any example of Vivienne currying her pro-Circle views to reflect the patron's views.

 

Saying Vivienne bends to her patron's views is like saying the player bends to all the failings and differences of everyone they can't/don't kill. Vivienne isn't omnipotent- but her lack of open rebellion in the face of disagreement is no more capitulation of her views than any other political dispute.

 

Thank you. These statements that Vivienne would abandon the loyalists to join the "rebellion"-nonsense camp merely to seek power is crazy-talk.

 

You know what else has power? Blood magic! Clearly Vivienne must be practicing it on the sly because she would see the power in it. 

 

Pro-mage players beginning to sound like their bitter enemies, the Templars.

[leaguer of one]

Celene was neutral towards the Circle conflict entirely, to the point of letting mages and Templars fight it out rather than intervene, while the Inquisitor can be actively anti-Circle. In neither case do we have any example of Vivienne currying her pro-Circle views to reflect the patron's views.

 

Saying Vivienne bends to her patron's views is like saying the player bends to all the failings and differences of everyone they can't/don't kill. Vivienne isn't omnipotent- but her lack of open rebellion in the face of disagreement is no more capitulation of her views than any other political dispute.

1. Celene was never neutral. Masked empire made it a point that she wanted the chantry to fix the mage/templer problem or else she fix it for her. She only allowed them to fight it out because she did did not have the man power to stop it with the civil war. Here policy with the circle and chantry is keep you're plate clean or else.

 

2. OK she does not bend but she still leans to the ones with the most power and try to convince them how great her view are without go off on them for apposing it. She still lean to the most power she an use.