1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

She tells you later that you're getting financed from nobles as well, not Nobles alone.

and if they stopped donating money, leasing land and labor, and so on then the Inquisition would be in serious trouble.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I find Viv becoming Divine is, while not guaranteed, a first step towards southern Thedas becoming Tevinter-like.

 

I disagree. I think that if a radical like Leliana can rise to the position and eliminate the regulations entirely, then a pro-Circle mage Divine is the least of southern Thedas's risks of taking on Tevinter status.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dean and leaguer.
It's like Anakin and the younglings.

 

My first thought was 'I'm offended. I am nowhere near that whiney.'

 

My second thought was

 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I disagree. I think that if a radical like Leliana can rise to the position and eliminate the regulations entirely, then a pro-Circle mage Divine is the least of southern Thedas's risks of taking on Tevinter status.

Considering Vivienne becoming divine requires the people to think the maker supported the status quo and thus hates mages, there is definitely more conflict than with divine Leliana where people think the maker loves mages

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Considering Vivienne becoming divine requires the people to think the maker supported the status quo and thus hates mages, there is definitely more conflict than with divine Leliana where people think the maker loves mages

There's reasons to support the status quo ante bellum (or at least the basics of it) other than "hates mages," you know.

[thesuperdarkone2]

There's reasons to support the status quo ante bellum (or at least the basics of it) other than "hates mages," you know.

Except the majority of decisions to get Vivienne elected are anti-Mage and you have to essentially hate mages in order to get her elected

[Boost32]

Except the majority of decisions to get Vivienne elected are anti-Mage and you have to essentially hate mages in order to get her elected

How Celene on throne, choosing "I will set a example as a mage", exiling the grey wardens,, saying "we need mages on the Chantry", saying to Vivienne to teaching mudanes to not fear magic or saying the Chantry is more needed than ever is mage hate?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Except the majority of decisions to get Vivienne elected are anti-Mage and you have to essentially hate mages in order to get her elected

Does not pretending the mages have any choice but to join me at the end of In Hushed Whispers count? Or does that count more for Cassandra?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Does not pretending the mages have any choice but to join me at the end of In Hushed Whispers count? Or does that count more for Cassandra?

Conscripting is pro Vivienne. Siding with the Templars in general is Cassandra

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Conscripting is pro Vivienne. Siding with the Templars in general is Cassandra

Well, since there's reasons to do that that don't involve hating mages...

[dragonflight288]

I disagree. I think that if a radical like Leliana can rise to the position and eliminate the regulations entirely, then a pro-Circle mage Divine is the least of southern Thedas's risks of taking on Tevinter status.

 

 

I wouldn't go this far, simply because I don't know what the regulations of the College are. Not enough intel. 

 

I know with Leliana that the Circle's controlled by the Chantry are nullified. Beyond that, I know nothing. 

 

There is a great deal of risk and walking into the unknown with Leliana as Divine, but not enough information to simply write it off as doomed to fail. 

 

If anything, I think what is more doomed to fail with Leliana is essentially changing the entire culture of the Chantry cold-turkey like allowing non-humans into the priesthood as Giselle tells us the real reason they are not allowed is political. 

 

Leliana is essentially fighting to remove ALL racism, and fully expects the entire culture to follow. And considering the centuries of racism to elves by humans, and sometimes other elves, I'm expecting a lot of violence, or at least a lot of fights and disagreements with that policy. 

 

Riverdaleswhiteflash, I forgot to copy the bit you talked about in regards to mundane leaders and their mistakes not leading to magical catastrophes, but I'm hoping you know what I'm addressing...especially since I just mentioned it, lol. 

 

Anyway, we know that mages are not required to sunder the veil and bring demons into the world. The Chantry, or at least the local chantry in Rivain, was responsible for it when they declared an Exalted March on the Rivaini-born Qunari in the north. The violence there was so bad that the veil was sundered, and the Chantry proceeded to deny attacking them in the first place.

 

Arl Howe also sundered the veil in Denerim during the purges on the alienage. Investigating the orphanage with Ser Otto reveals that powerful rage demons had come through, and that the veil was weakened and sundered by the atrocities that happened there. 

 

The entire Brecilian Forest has a weak veil, which resulted in possessed trees, which, I think, are older than the werewolf curse and happened as a result of a massive war, or at least many battles in the area. 

 

Granted, it's far easier for a mage to do it than non-mages, but even the Chantry admits that abominations are rare, and they take more issue with magic itself and its history with Tevinter than they do the risk of abominations, although the risk is exactly why they have the Templars standing ready. 

 

Overall, my opinion is that the biggest flaw with the Circle system is that it granted too much authority to whoever was the Knight-Commander and that the Seekers were not interested in seeking out corruption among the Chantry and templars, which is their entire job, because they grew accustomed to certain powers and privilege their authority granted them, and thus kept their actions secret as Cassandra discusses about the secret book. 

 

I believe that the mages need a system in place to teach them to control their powers, to better understand the nature of the Fade and spirits without religious dogma giving them certain beliefs on how spirits act and react, as we see with Anders and Merrill's discussions on spirits and that one idiot who summoned a spirit of wisdom to help them fight through the exalted plains because he utterly misunderstood the nature of the spirit he was summoning, but was dismissive of Solas' telling him down for it because "he was the highest authority in Kirkwall on demon summoning."

 

Which meant squat in the end. 

 

Mages need to understand the nature of spirits and the fade, how to control their powers safely, and ultimately be well-enough adjusted that they aren't socially inept in the world, like that one mage who is complaining to Cassandra about conditions the mages are expected to be in. 

 

One of the largest issues is the emotional disconnect. Mages are separated from the world, and depending on the Circle not allowed to have relationships, and the templars kept their distance and refused to get to know the mages, or at least a large percentage of them did because it would keep them from doing their duty if they were emotionally involved, but the religious teachings and the culture and history of Tevinter made it easier for many of the to dehumanize the mages, and that in turn altered how they treated the mages, and led to many, many abuses, which led to more and more mages rebelling against the system.

 

Ultimately, no matter who becomes Divine, the Circle's are reformed. Cassandra roots out corruption among the templars and seekers, Vivienne gives the mages more rights and responsibilities, and likely puts them in positions in the Chantry itself if her greatly approve rating for telling her that's how you'd change the Circle's is anything to go by, but keeps all true power with herself, and Leliana removes the Circle system entirely and brings in the College. 

 

So there's something for everyone on what they feel is the best reforms for the mage circle's. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Riverdaleswhiteflash, I forgot to copy the bit you talked about in regards to mundane leaders and their mistakes not leading to magical catastrophes, but I'm hoping you know what I'm addressing...especially since I just mentioned it, lol. 

 

Anyway, we know that mages are not required to sunder the veil and bring demons into the world. The Chantry, or at least the local chantry in Rivain, was responsible for it when they declared an Exalted March on the Rivaini-born Qunari in the north. The violence there was so bad that the veil was sundered, and the Chantry proceeded to deny attacking them in the first place.

 

Arl Howe also sundered the veil in Denerim during the purges on the alienage. Investigating the orphanage with Ser Otto reveals that powerful rage demons had come through, and that the veil was weakened and sundered by the atrocities that happened there. 

 

The entire Brecilian Forest has a weak veil, which resulted in possessed trees, which, I think, are older than the werewolf curse and happened as a result of a massive war, or at least many battles in the area. 

 

Granted, it's far easier for a mage to do it than non-mages, but even the Chantry admits that abominations are rare, and they take more issue with magic itself and its history with Tevinter than they do the risk of abominations, although the risk is exactly why they have the Templars standing ready.

All fair. (Including the snipped bits, but this stuff is the bits relevant to me.)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I wouldn't go this far, simply because I don't know what the regulations of the College are. Not enough intel. 

 

I know with Leliana that the Circle's controlled by the Chantry are nullified. Beyond that, I know nothing. 

 

There is a great deal of risk and walking into the unknown with Leliana as Divine, but not enough information to simply write it off as doomed to fail. 

 

If anything, I think what is more doomed to fail with Leliana is essentially changing the entire culture of the Chantry cold-turkey like allowing non-humans into the priesthood as Giselle tells us the real reason they are not allowed is political. 

 

Leliana is essentially fighting to remove ALL racism, and fully expects the entire culture to follow. And considering the centuries of racism to elves by humans, and sometimes other elves, I'm expecting a lot of violence, or at least a lot of fights and disagreements with that policy.

 

But with the priesthood wide-open and mages deregulated, I am seeing nothing to stop a mage supremacist from becoming Divine in Leliana's setting.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But with the priesthood wide-open and mages deregulated, I am seeing nothing to stop a mage supremacist from becoming Divine in Leliana's setting.

The votes of the other Grand Clerics. Though voters can be lead...

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The votes of the other Grand Clerics. Though voters can be lead...

 

Who could all be mage supremacists in Leliana's ending!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Who could all be mage supremacists in Leliana's ending!

They could eventually do that, but it would take time. Especially if Leiliana's hardened, since she'd probably personally murder anyone who tried to corrupt her reforms in that state. But eventually? Yeah. That's absolutely a thing that can happen.

[Iakus]

Conscripting is pro Vivienne. Siding with the Templars in general is Cassandra

Vivienne gets points for allying with the Templars. Cassandra just gets more

[Kakistos_]

Nobody paints that as the picture of mage freedom.

Well, maybe kommandor but he is an exception.

 

You don't need societal collapse in order for conditions to be disagreable.

 

 

My point was even when conditions were disagreeable the Inquisition never stooped to treating every Mage like a criminal for what they might do one day. They openly sought the aid of Mages and even made one, possibly more, their leader in order to help stop Mages that dangerous.

 

it is good to see you acknowledging the inevitability of both mass murder by magic and acquisition of power over normals by mages.

Less encouraging to see that you place the freedom of one person over the lives and freedom of a hundred.

 

And that is what is unreasonable. That normal people should risk life, limb, family, freedom EVERYTHING so mages who, in ways, are already part of an elite can be even more powerful.

 

I have acknowledged no such thing. The notion that Mages will inevitably attack and subjugate others just because they are Mages is absurd. There are numerous examples including individuals, societies and organizations that prove this is not the case.

 

And yet, the very existence of the Keepers and the Dalish as you yourself acknowledge is a prime example of how society does not need to be destroyed by mages in order for them to be a problem. See the four clans directly destroyed by the decisions of their Keepers and Firsts.

Likewise, despite this abject record, there are still Keepers which are accepted by their fellow elves.

 

Therefore, since we have already extablished how societies can persist despite having terrible leaders using the very examples you provided, we can't simply accept "Rivain is still there" as evidence of how Seers never become Abominations or just made bad decisions.

 

It is not the fact that they were Mages that caused their downfall but that they are flawed and fallible. In the cases of Merrill and Zathrien, their Clans are in fact not destroyed unless you the protagonist push them in that direction. I do not discount their faults but to suggest they randomly decided to destroy their clans one day is false. Both of them went out of their way to try and undo/mitigate the damage caused by their actions. In the case of the Clan that summoned and subsequently killed by Imshael, it was the intervention of a third party, Michel, that caused things to go wrong for them not the Keeper. There are more than a few non Mage leaders that have caused more damage than all of those combined.

 

 

The Circles have experienced one rebellion in the span of 900 years and not only did this rebellion not lead to the collapse of Andrastian civilization or even the resurgence of Tevinter, it was defeated largely thanks to the effects the Circle had on both mages and non. Mages didn't use blood magic, non-mages closed the doors of every city but Redcliff to mages, etc.

And yet, it was not sucessful.

 

We have seen four Dalish clans destroyed by the direct actions of their Keepers and Firsts in the span of 10 years and yet, they are sucessful.

What exactly is your criteria for sucess? "Mages are free"?

 

One rebellion brought on by centuries of systematic abuse at the hands of Templars. The Circle system has never been without tension between Mages, Templars and the Chantry. It began with the Divine almost declaring an Exalted March and since the Right of Annulment has been invoked 19 times. Mages and Templars both saw it coming.

My criteria for success as I have stated before is Mages living freely with their non-Magical counterparts while in full control of themselves and their abilities. The Avvar, Dalish and others have displayed this. That a few such as Merrill and Zathrien make poor decisions doesn't justify every Mage being confined because they might make a mistake one day.

 

 

No, we don't. We see mages taking steps to lessen the threat they represent. We never actually see them doing anything benefitial unless you count turning your Thane into a Revenant benefitial.

The lore on this subject has been established for years. You cannot just ignore it because they didn't hold your hand and walk you through the steps.

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, you have strange standards.

 

The Avvar like their way of life and have no desire for decadent cities. Do not assume everyone wants the same things out of life or possess the same standards.

 

 

The Inquisition accepted the help of free mages because Mages are needed to handle some threats and because all mages were free. That doesn't speak to whether mage freedom is a good idea or not.

 

The standard of mage freedom I'm willing accept is if mages don't consistently cause massive disasters*. I don't care if they lead, and I don't care if they make mistakes, as long as these mistakes aren't big enough that they can be compared with natural disasters. While I don't like Harrowmont's decisions, only slightly prefer Bhelen's, and think the Orlesian Civil War was some complete crap, at least these leaders aren't causing centuries-long werewolf curses on top of being poor leaders. And at least Zathrian's clan is alive in some (probably most) World States: Merrill states that when a Dalish mage goes abomination, the entire clan goes hunting for the abomination, and this has led to entire clans being wiped out. The Dalish exist. That's not the same as thriving.

 

And even ignoring that, you didn't answer my point that in some clans, this comes at the cost of superfluous mage children being thrown out into the wilderness.

 

Gaider is clearly not referring to beings like Wynne when he says "abominations," since they're compared to natural disasters. The fact that Seers are still respected despite this is probably either for the same reason Zathrian is still respected despite nearly destroying his clan (whatever that is) or because everyone is able to believe that their Seer is somehow different (which is possible but rather a gamble.)

 

The Seers might well have some way to remove spirits from anothers' body, but if it's like the Avvar method the possessed individual apparently needs to agree to it. And while I hadn't specifically addressed the Avvar themselves in my original post, their methods seem risky. We've had it driven home over the course of two previous games that using spirits is freaking dangerous whether or not they count as demons, and here the Avvar are basing their system on it. I'm willing to accept that they haven't yet run into any serious dangers other than that dragon thing with Hakkon, primarily because apparently Solas said they haven't and he has no reason to lie about this. That said, I still see a potential for them to one day either corrupt one of their gods (again) or attempt to replace one of their dead gods and wind up with a disguised Pride Demon in their midst. Then who knows what might happen.

 

And even if they don't, a large part of the reason their system works is because their spirit gods kill the mages among them who would at least be given a choice between Tranquility or death in the Circles.

 

And while apparently I had made the Tevinter argument to two others rather than you (my mistake) are you able to answer it?

 

And as for the Circles failing: yes, they did, due to consistent failures by the Templars to treat the mages as human. But the Templars who so failed apparently got wiped out by the events of Inquisition to judge by the War Table missions to use the Templars having them spare mages who just got caught up in the rebellion and wound up over their heads. At any rate the Templars are reined in during the epilogues where the Circle is reformed: no Divine lets them have as much leeway as they did before because they've seen how that ends. So, the worst of the flaws of the Circle have been mitigated. Every other system's flaws are still in evidence.

 

*Edit: Also, if they don't go crazy with blood magic, that'd be great.

You type as if Mage freedom is some new radical idea, it is not. The idea of universal Mage confinement was the new idea and not only ended up failing but nearly destroying the institution that enforced it.

 

Your standard doesn't sound unreasonable until you factor in the possibility of still punishing all Mages for the actions of a few. Mages can be just as corrupt as any other human or Elf. Some will be power hungry, some will take drastic measures for revenge. Another Mage will someday act out in grief in a similar fashion. Blaming all Mages for this is grossly unfair. What is your definition of a natural disaster? The results of Zathrien's action are unfortunate but even as you state the Clan survives.

 

There are many non-Mages that make poor decisions far more costly than his. For example; a vast majority of misfortunes visited on the Dalish are due to humans, not their Mages. The destruction of the Dales was a disaster and prior its fall the Elves existed with Free Mages for hundreds of years with no such Magical equivalent. My thoughts on Manaeve's comments are that her specific Clan chooses to handle Mages in this fashion. That does not mean that all Dalish clans do nor am going to dismiss Merrill's account. We know that the Dalish clans have become different from each other other the centuries of wandering. Different Clans probably have different methods of training and dealing with influx of Mage children. Both Manaeve and Merrill's accounts are probably true.

 

Zathrien being respected among the Dalish is not the same as Seers turning into Abominations being respected in Rivain. The Dalish all share one religion and culture, Rivain does not and is composed of Pantheist, Qunari and Andrastian nobles. There is evidence that all three of these groups respect the Seers. I doubt very much that Qunari and Andrastians would tolerate Abominations killing people. I doubt the Seers would tolerate it and I doubt that Chantric countries such as Orlais and Antiva would still hold Rivain in high regard.

 

I wasn't part of the discussion on Tevinter and don't know the context but if I am correct in guessing that you deem the Tevinter Magisters worse than the ruthless Orlesian players of the Game then I disagree. They are both equally morally reprehensible. That the Tevinters are Mages doesn't make them worse. Take Logain as an example. He hired a known Apostate and Blood Mage to poison Arl Eamon. Would Logain somehow be more morally wrong had he been capable of doing the deed himself as a Blood Mage? Would Empress Celene be more morally wrong had she purged the Alienage with Magic instead of rapey Elf murdering Chevaliers?

 

We have very limited details on the state of the Circle Towers in the Epilogue should they be reinstated. Are Templars punished for crimes such as beating or rape? How? What recourse do Mages have when even Seekers and Chantry officials refuse to act on their behalf? Are Mages allowed to see their families? Are their children still stolen away from them? Is the Right of Annulment still in place? Are Mages who don't want to be confined in a Circle their whole lives still hunted down and killed? All of these questions still need to be answered.

 

Not only would I argue that the Circle is a useless and detrimental institution I argue that the institutional potential for abuse is still there. No matter how shiny and plush you make a cage it is still a cage. Some may enjoy it there but when it comes down to it Mages won't have a choice in the matter. The relationship between Templars and Mages would remain jailer and prisoner and Mages would always have the lesser hand. Just in the beginning with Seekers and Templars, the abuses would grow and Mages would wouldn't be able to do anything about it and inevitably the Rebellion will be born anew.

 

Things might be better with the new Divine should the Circle be reinstated but all of that could change with a new Divine and Mages and Templars could be at each others throats again. Hoping that the next Divine will have their interest at heart but being completely powerless to do anything about it should she not does not sound like a good place for Mages going forward.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

You type as if Mage freedom is some new radical idea, it is not. The idea of universal Mage confinement was the new idea and not only ended up failing but nearly destroying the institution that enforced it.

 

Your standard doesn't sound unreasonable until you factor in the possibility of still punishing all Mages for the actions of a few. Mages can be just as corrupt as any other human or Elf. Some will be power hungry, some will take drastic measures for revenge. Another Mage will someday act out in grief in a similar fashion. Blaming all Mages for this is grossly unfair. What is your definition of a natural disaster? The results of Zathrien's action are unfortunate but even as you state the Clan survives.

 

There are many non-Mages that make poor decisions far more costly than his. For example; a vast majority of misfortunes visited on the Dalish are due to humans, not their Mages. The destruction of the Dales was a disaster and prior its fall the Elves existed with Free Mages for hundreds of years with no such Magical equivalent. My thoughts on Manaeve's comments are that her specific Clan chooses to handle Mages in this fashion. That does not mean that all Dalish clans do nor am going to dismiss Merrill's account. We know that the Dalish clans have become different from each other other the centuries of wandering. Different Clans probably have different methods of training and dealing with influx of Mage children. Both Manaeve and Merrill's accounts are probably true.

 

Zathrien being respected among the Dalish is not the same as Seers turning into Abominations being respected in Rivain. The Dalish all share one religion and culture, Rivain does not and is composed of Pantheist, Qunari and Andrastian nobles. There is evidence that all three of these groups respect the Seers. I doubt very much that Qunari and Andrastians would tolerate Abominations killing people. I doubt the Seers would tolerate it and I doubt that Chantric countries such as Orlais and Antiva would still hold Rivain in high regard.

 

I wasn't part of the discussion on Tevinter and don't know the context but if I am correct in guessing that you deem the Tevinter Magisters worse than the ruthless Orlesian players of the Game then I disagree. They are both equally morally reprehensible. That the Tevinters are Mages doesn't make them worse. Take Logain as an example. He hired a known Apostate and Blood Mage to poison Arl Eamon. Would Logain somehow be more morally wrong had he been capable of doing the deed himself as a Blood Mage? Would Empress Celene be more morally wrong had she purged the Alienage with Magic instead of rapey Elf murdering Chevaliers?

 

We have very limited details on the state of the Circle Towers in the Epilogue should they be reinstated. Are Templars punished for crimes such as beating or rape? How? What recourse do Mages have when even Seekers and Chantry officials refuse to act on their behalf? Are Mages allowed to see their families? Are their children still stolen away from them? Is the Right of Annulment still in place? Are Mages who don't want to be confined in a Circle their whole lives still hunted down and killed? All of these questions still need to be answered.

 

Not only would I argue that the Circle is a useless and detrimental institution I argue that the institutional potential for abuse is still there. No matter how shiny and plush you make a cage it is still a cage. Some may enjoy it there but when it comes down to it Mages won't have a choice in the matter. The relationship between Templars and Mages would remain jailer and prisoner and Mages would always have the lesser hand. Just in the beginning with Seekers and Templars, the abuses would grow and Mages would wouldn't be able to do anything about it and inevitably the Rebellion will be born anew.

After several centuries, one wonders how well "new" describes the Circles. And while you do argue against the idea that the Circles can be tweaked, I'm not sure I buy these arguments, and this particular argument is a bit questionable in that context. But more on that below.

 

This is the standard under which it is safe to have mages in the general population. I'm not going to pretend it doesn't suck to be a mage if mages as a whole are forced into the Circles, but being a mundane under mage freedom if mages don't meet it and are free anyway has the potential to be worse. Zathrian's clan probably survived because a PC demigod probably chose that over murdering them all. If the player doesn't choose that, or if hypothetically the PC had come along too late or decided to do without the Dalish so as to go on one less suicide mission, the survivors could very well have envied the dead. I think you're making far too little of what could have (and in some of my world states did) happen(ed) because of Zathrian making one lapse in judgement centuries ago. And if it's only one decision and only one clan's even in jeopardy (if we assume that the werewolves are only a threat to that one clan, which they're not) what about the other clans which got wiped out because one of their mages went abomination? If he's not typical of Keepers, he's also far from unique.

 

I did specify not all Dalish clans abandon their mages. It's just a thing to bear in mind, that the system (to the extent that one system can be said to exist among the Dalish) does have a darker side. Even if being a Keeper (or even a free non-Keeper like Elora) is better than being a Circle Mage (and I'd be delusional to think freedom didn't have its upside) this is the other side of the coin.

 

And I'm not denying that the worst of what the Dalish are suffering is because of humanity destroying their country (though the extent to which the humans are at fault is less cut-and-dry than you imply.) I fail, however, to see what this has to do with whether or not they're making their situation worse by allowing Zathrian and Marethari to be the responsible ones. Nor do I see how Zathrian being respected due to his cultural role even after his act of vengeance and its consequences become obvious is different from the Seers of Rivain still being respected despite an apparently larger than normal number of abominations, except that the Seers who didn't turn aren't directly responsible for the disaster miles away and so the people lay it at the other Seer's door. I'm not arguing that it's bad enough to make the country look like Mordor, just that it apparently happens more often there due to them not trying as hard to stop it.

 

As for your assertion that it's surprising the Rivaini Andrastians and Qunari would put up with abominations killing people: yes. Yes it is. But Word Of Gaider says that they just treat it like a natural disaster when it happens: they bury the dead and get on with their lives. If they aren't entirely blase about it, that's still not flying into a rage or trying to solve the problem or anything.

 

What you've missed about my objection to blood mage rulers is that I don't view them as any morally worse than the ones already in power. If Celene had blood magic, I think she'd use it in a hot second. And then she'd be more unpleasant to work for than she already is, just like the worst of the magisters. She's abusing the power she has and people are getting hurt. She doesn't need more power, and she certainly doesn't need power that works best if you hurt people to power it. And mages who are morally like her don't need to rule.

 

You are right about us not having too much to go on in the Epilogue. So, theoretically the College could work awesomely, though I doubt it and doubt even more that that will last even if it starts off well. We also don't know much about the way the reformed Circles are run, but given that the worst apples among the Templars seem to have wound up in the Hinterlands or taking Red Lyrium (and at any rate don't seem to be working for the Inquisition to judge by the War Table missions as described on the wiki) the Order just lost a lot of its worst qualities. Not to mention that Cassandra is visibly shocked to hear from Cole about the worst of White Spire's atrocities: one might imagine that she looks out for them as the new Circles form under her rule and fires anyone who tries to stop her from seeing it. I'm less sure of Vivienne, but she's usually only a bad person when she personally benefits in some way, and she's not defending the way certain Templars acted. In fact she flatly admits to Cassandra that the Templars should have been overseen better. I'd need actual evidence to believe she allows rape to happen under her watch.

 

I do think a lot of the stuff you seem to object to about the Circles will probably still happen. The reason mages aren't allowed to keep their children is probably because you really don't want that kid underfoot if something goes wrong. The reason the Right of Annulment exists is because sometimes something goes so far to hell that there's really no acceptable solution and the mages are all either dead, possessed, or both by the time the Templars have gotten together enough to do anything about it. As likely would have happened if the Warden hadn't gotten involved in Ferelden's Circle.

 

If I'm worried about what will happen when Cassandra or Vivienne's successor inherits this system... well, I'm also worried about what will happen when Leiliana is gone. Maybe the Circles will fail again. Given enough time they probably will. But I feel fairly confident that the College, unless it does a lot of the same things the Circles did, will be a step in the wrong direction starting much faster than it will take the Templars to forget the last generation's mistakes.

[Dean_the_Young]

The votes of the other Grand Clerics. Though voters can be lead...

 

Or convinced with blood magic.

 

But I'm sure no mage in southern Thedas would ever stoop to such a modest, easy, and relatively untraceable means of securing immense political power.

[Sifr]

Or convinced with blood magic.

 

But I'm sure no mage in southern Thedas would ever stoop to such a modest, easy, and relatively untraceable means of securing immense political power.

 

I agree, nor would any mages from northern Thedas ever stoop to using such means to "convince" any particular group to fight for them...

 

 (But let's not start that whole other sack of cats discussion up again, was just amused that the suggestion of using blood magic to coerce people isn't being laughed out of the room for once) 

 

[Sifr]

I disagree. I think that if a radical like Leliana can rise to the position and eliminate the regulations entirely, then a pro-Circle mage Divine is the least of southern Thedas's risks of taking on Tevinter status.

 

Do we know that there aren't any regulations still in place?

 

All we're told is that under Leliana's system, the Circle no longer exists and the Templars no longer serve as their guards. That doesn't preclude the possibility that Leliana won't do the same thing as Cassandra, have the Templars still work for the Chantry to enforce the law when magical abuse or mishaps do occur, rather than locking them up in a tower under the pretense they are all potential criminals.

 

Yeah, it has the possibility of the Templars having their nads cut off and becoming ineffectual like their counterparts in Tevinter, but that they have already have that nation to serve as a cautionary tale (as Dorian lampshades) should hopefully prevent something similar happening in the South.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Do we know that there aren't any regulations still in place?
 
All we're told is that under Leliana's system, the Circle no longer exists and the Templars no longer serve as their guards. That doesn't preclude the possibility that Leliana won't do the same thing as Cassandra, have the Templars still work for the Chantry to enforce the law when magical abuse or mishaps do occur, rather than locking them up in a tower under the pretense they are all potential criminals.
 
Yeah, it has the possibility of the Templars having their nads cut off and becoming ineffectual like their counterparts in Tevinter, but that they have already have that nation to serve as a cautionary tale (as Dorian lampshades) should hopefully prevent something similar happening in the South.

Leliana disbands the Templars

[Sifr]

Leliana disbands the Templars

 

Actually, the Templars disband themselves, rather than being something Leliana forces them to do. In other Templars endings with her as Divine, they either reform the Templars or merge themselves into the Seekers or Inquisition forces.

 

In the Mage endings, we have no idea what Leliana plans to do with the Templars who weren't at Therinfal or corrupted into the Red Templars.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Pro-Cicle seem to be under the assumption that they've cured the Circle's ills since most of the abusive characters have been eliminated in the narrative but those characters are a product of the divisive ignorance the Circle's propagate. Even Riverdaleswhiteflash who claim to support the dignity of mages is willing to give mages 'a raw deal" for the sake of the "safety" of the "majority". This is the same mentality that created Merideth and Lambert. Let us consider that perhaps the Circles will return to it's abusive nature because fear allows men to justify their evils. So perhaps magical regulation's solution is not as simplistic as cutting off abusive elements. Rather perhaps the solution is evolving and addressing society's relationship with magic.

Zathrian's clan does lead to the werewolf curse and nearly destroyed his clan and unleashed an magical epidemic on Thedas. But he did so even when the Circle's were fully active. Would threatening him with templars have stopped him from cursing those humans? Decimus and Uldred summoned demons and undead even within the watch of the Circles. All they had to do was plan and wait for the right opportunity. Blackwall once told Solas that he wished the Chantry could better regulate magic but Solas responded that "Such rules never hold. Any who want victory will find some reason their cause merits exception. The best we can do is ensure the world still stands when this fight ends." Which I believe magic could serve well in that capacity.

As Merrill states, "Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed". So why not learn to weild magic responsibly? I daresay even blood magic can be used responsibly if taught to be wielded properly. After all, Magic is but a tool. Like learning to drive, sure wielding a car could be dangerous but it's also an unavoidable part of life that will be used and that non-mages and mages alike have to learn to accept. The solution is simple. In my opinion, instead of eschewing magic because of ignorant judgmental self-righteousness, maybe the Chantry should promote it's pragmatism. That includes blood magic, summoning spirits, and the like. Allow the mages to teach themselves to wield it responsibly. And use spirits like Cole or Wynne's spirit of faith to channel their special talents to weed out the corrupt elements. In my opinion, such magic can only come about with freedom to explore magic and not be persecuted for it. Of course, many believe cutthroat oppression is the only way to regulate magic in society but that way creates more hostility, more abuse, more war. It's comforting to believe in corrupt hierarchies for "stability" and familiarity but it's lie they tell themselves. As Solas tells Vivienne," Your Circle was a tightly clamped lid on a boiling pot. It held for a while, and, unless you looked inside, it all seemed fine. And everyone feigned surprise when it finally burst." In due time, the mages will either rebel or Tevinter will become a beacon of freedom for magic that will challenge southern thedas' tyranny. To test the limits of magic and learn to weild it properly is the only way to safely address the relationship with magic. That's never going to happen if non-mages think the solution is to nuke everything they perceive as a threat and grinding innocent mages to the ground in the process.