1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

Except that the Divine did sanction the conclave at White Spire to discuss those very issues, especially reforms and the future of the Circle. Meaning that any talk of disbanding the Circle and reforming it outside of Chantry control was bound to be on the table, even if that outcome was something the Chantry did not want to have happen.
 
The College also still exists, it was only the previous conclave that was shut down and forcibly disbanded during the previous attempt to vote on independence. Futhermore, it was never illegal to vote on independence, as the point of the conclave was for the Circle to discuss issues that affect all of them and they were allowed the right to both discuss and vote on them, including in this instance by Justinia.
 
The only reason no-one ever put the vote forward before was because the Chantry's authority was never in doubt and because no-one dared to put forth the motion, not because any particular rule prevented it.

The very reason it was disbanded is because of the independency vote, how it was not illegal?
And she never let them discuss independency, Fiona changed the discussion.

[Sifr]

Orsino was only able to turn himself into a harvester thanks to highly illegal research he received from an apostate. A ridiculously sick and dangerous one Orsino went out of his way to protect. If anything that's an example supporting more mage supervision not less.

 

Except that it's never made clear whether Orsino knew the full extent of what Quentin was doing or where he was getting the corpses for his research? For all we know, Orsino believed that he was helping Quention push the boundaries of magical research, rather than aiding and abetting an insane serial killer who was trying to bring his wife back to life by constructing her out of bits of dead people?

 

That the Mortalitasi are at least tolerated and Mage Wardens could learn necromancer skills involving summoning undead in Origins, would suggest that there's a definite grey area when it comes to this particular school of magic in Thedas and what is permitted before it crosses the line.

[X Equestris]

Except that it's never made clear whether Orsino knew the full extent of what Quentin was doing or where he was getting the corpses for his research? For all we know, Orsino believed that he was helping Quention push the boundaries of magical research, rather than aiding and abetting an insane serial killer who was trying to bring his wife back to life by constructing her out of bits of dead people?
 
That the Mortalitasi are at least tolerated and Mage Wardens could learn necromancer skills involving summoning undead in Origins, would suggest that there's a definite grey area when it comes to this particular school of magic in Thedas and what is permitted before it crosses the line.

Orsino's notes are littered around Quentin's hideout. It seems very likely that he knew murders were occuring, at the very least.

[Sifr]

The very reason it was disbanded is because of the independency vote, how it was not illegal?
And she never let them discuss independency, Fiona changed the discussion.

 

The same way that in countries ruled by dictatorships, it's not "illegal" to vote for the other guy... you have the illusion of choice that you could vote from someone else if you wanted to, but you just know that doing so will probably lead to getting a knock on the door in the middle of the night.

 

The Circle being independent from the Chantry is however the logical next step in the reformation talks, as they did not want to cease to exist, they just wanted to move themselves outside of either Chantry control or at least be free of Templar supervision.

 

We see in the Mage endings they eventually reorganise themselves into a new College, either as part of or external from the Chantry. So the independence vote was never about simply flushing the Circle down the drain, many of them still wanted the insitution to exist in some form, just with far more freedoms than they had.

 

Orsino's notes are littered around Quentin's hideout. It seems very likely that he knew murders were occuring, at the very least.

 

There's also a bunch of corpses littered around the place as well, could be that Quentin is just a litter bug?

 

And there's only one signed from him in his hideout that I can recall, where were the others?

[Boost32]

The same way that in countries ruled by dictatorships, it's not "illegal" to vote for the other guy... where you have the illusion of choice that you could vote that way if you wanted to, but you just know that doing so will probably lead to getting a knock on the door in the middle of the night.
 
The Circle being independent from the Chantry is however the logical next step in the reformation talks, as they did not want to cease to exist, they just wanted to move themselves outside of either Chantry control or at least be free of Templar supervision.
 
We see in the Mage endings they eventually reorganise themselves into a new College, whether under the Chantry or outside of it. The independence vote was never about simply flushing the Circle down the drain, they still wanted the insitution to exist in some form, just with far more freedoms than they had.

Thats another thing, the fact is: at the moment the vote was illegal, end of the story.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The same way that in countries ruled by dictatorships, it's not "illegal" to vote for the other guy... where you have the illusion of choice that you could vote that way if you wanted to, but you just know that doing so will probably lead to getting a knock on the door in the middle of the night.
 
The Circle being independent from the Chantry is however the logical next step in the reformation talks, as they did not want to cease to exist, they just wanted to move themselves outside of either Chantry control or at least be free of Templar supervision.
 
We see in the Mage endings they eventually reorganise themselves into a new College, whether under the Chantry or outside of it. The independence vote was never about simply flushing the Circle down the drain, they still wanted the insitution to exist in some form, just with far more freedoms than they had.

Funny how people forget the vote was for an independent circle not run by the chantry, not completely abolishing the circle

[Sifr]

Thats another thing, the fact is: at the moment the vote was illegal, end of the story.

 

Except that it wasn't illegal in any way, Justinia gave them the chance to discuss reforms and discussing independence counts as just that.

 

Lambert shutting down the entire thing and drawing swords to attack was the only illegal thing that happened in that room.

[Drasanil]

 

Except that it's never made clear whether Orsino knew the full extent of what Quentin was doing or where he was getting the corpses for his research? For all we know, Orsino believed that he was helping Quention push the boundaries of magical research, rather than aiding and abetting an insane serial killer who was trying to bring his wife back to life by constructing her out of bits of dead people?

Orsino's notes are littered around Quentin's hideout. It seems very likely that he knew murders were occuring, at the very least.

 

This. Orsino was hardly getting the cliffnotes version of the research. And given Quentin's state of mind it's kind of hard to believe some of his crazy would not have seeped into his letters over the years. 

 

That the Mortalitasi are at least tolerated and Mage Wardens could learn necromancer skills involving summoning undead in Origins, would suggest that there's a definite grey area when it comes to this particular school of magic in Thedas and what is permitted before it crosses the line.

 

Lore wise the Mortalitasi are basically fancy embalmers, and even at that they're still viewed negatively by people outside of Nevarra. As for what skills the Warden and their allies could or could not learn I would not exactly hold it up as a standard for lore accuracy given you could easily take bloodmage Wynne out for a spin when ever it suited you. 

[Sifr]

 

This. Orsino was hardly getting the cliffnotes version of the research. And given Quentin's state of mind it's kind of hard to believe some of his crazy would not have seeped into his letters over the years. 

 

True, but being willing to try to raise the dead kinda requires that you already be kinda crazy in the first place, it doesn't mean that you can assume that person is a budding Jack the Ripper. Besides, given how many people die in Kirkwall on a regular basis, it's not like it'd be hard to bribe someone to get fresh corpses before they hit their pyres.

 

Lore wise the Mortalitasi are basically fancy embalmers, and even at that they're still viewed negatively by people outside of Nevarra. As for what skills the Warden and their allies could or could not learn I would not exactly hold it up as a standard for lore accuracy given you could easily take bloodmage Wynne out for a spin when ever it suited you.

 

While I agree, the skills we could learn in DAO aren't any indication of what students were taught at the Ferelden Circle, the Mortalitasi are still also known for summoning spirits into the dead, something that's still allowed despite being taboo.

[SmilesJA]

 

Did it distort her view, or simply give her a different perspective?  SHe experienced a CIrcle life without the abuses some Templars heaped upon mages.  Wouldn't it be nice if all mages had a chance to live more in-line with Vivienne's expereinces?

 

Quite frankly it's the opposite, she's very judgmental towards those who rebelled against the Chantry and the Circle.

[Drasanil]

 

True, but being willing to try to raise the dead kinda requires that you already be kinda crazy in the first place, it doesn't mean that you can assume that person is a budding Jack the Ripper. Besides, given how many people die in Kirkwall on a regular basis, it's not like it'd be hard to bribe someone to get fresh corpses before they hit their pyres.

 

It's not just raising the dead as in shoving a spirit in a corpse and watching it shuffle about. Quentin was going not only for full blown resurrection but full blown reconstruction. Given how particular he was and the unusual choice of victims [distinguished older women, the kind corpse fetchers would probably have more trouble getting and the kind that would probably be noticed when they go missing] Orsino would have surely heard something. If he didn't know what exactly was going its probably because he didn't want to, he certainly had a better picture than anyone else.  

 

While I agree, the skills we could learn in DAO aren't any indication of what students were taught at the Ferelden Circle, the Mortalitasi are still also known for summoning spirits into the dead, something that's still allowed despite being taboo.

 

Yeah, I agree it's viewed as "icky" but not technically wrong since no blood magic is involved. In the case of necromancy as we see it in Thedas its really about how much you trust the letter of the law to protect you from potentially grumpy relatives or suitably concerned bystanders. 

[Boost32]

Except that it wasn't illegal in any way, Justinia gave them the chance to discuss reforms and discussing independence counts as just that.
 
Lambert shutting down the entire thing and drawing swords to attack was the only illegal thing that happened in that room.

No she didnt, if she did Fiona wouldnt change the conversation and the Divine wouldnt have disbanded the College because of the same thing years before.
Never said Lambert was right, he should have only put Fiona in jail, the others were innocent.

But we are discussing the same things now, I'm out.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Your willing to risk it because you believe your preconception (i.e., templars going bad is less risky or dangerous than the College going bad) is valid. But what if it isn't? What if the templars prove to be more dangerous than the college? We just learned they drink the blood of some ancient being that we know nothing about and can be corrupted, like the Shal-brytol or the red templars. May I be so bold as to assert that what you are willing to risk could be the folly of your biases?

You may. That's not the same as doing so correctly. What everyone who opposes the Circle seems to miss is that the Templars going bad is mainly a threat to the mages, and the mages going bad is a threat to everyone; even if these corrupted Templars did go after the rest of the world, they'd be soundly crushed due to their main unique ability being anti-magic. If the mages go after the rest of the world, they'll probably still be crushed, because rest of the world, but they'll be much harder to take down.

 

And Orsino being locked up in the Gallows didn't stop him from becoming a Harvester. Locking mages up does not guarantee the overall safety of the populace. You can say that the Rite of Annulment and the abuse of the Rite of Tranquility will always suppress the mages, but the mages learned how to reverse the Rite, and more mages with exceptional skills like Dreamers such as Feynriel or Avexis who could control dragons can fight off an annulment. Judging by the choices of Hawke, even the Kirkwall Circle could survive an Annulment. It has served the nonmages for a long time because many mages thought themselves powerless against templars but Kirkwall could show they could be defied. Some mages will even risk possession, consorting with demons/spirits, and blood magic to fight off the Rite of Annulment. And we are still certain that the Annulment could be an effective measure as magic becomes more of a powerful force of nature? If a Circle creates more problems than it can contain, if the Rite doesn't always succeed, than the safeguards are ineffective. If it's goal is a slaughter on every side, then yes it works but if it's to contain the dangers of magic, perhaps it's time to refine the methods and find a better way.

Hawke was able to thwart an Annulment due to being a PC. My understanding is that Hawke was the only thing they had going for them that could do any such thing. If the mages aren't powerless against the Templars, they're still no match for the Chantry throwing as many of them as are around at it. Feynriel could maybe fight off an Annulment, if he knew one was coming and the Templars didn't bring in catapults to simply knock down the walls on him. (Though given his level of power he's likely either powerful enough to render the need for one moot, or powerful enough to be the reason one was necessary.) As for Avexis... is he the one with the dragons? If so, not good enough. A large enough force of Templars could probably handle a high dragon and its spawn.

 

 

The Grey Warden mages who were given freedom, such as Anders and Fiona, ended up revolting against the Circles. It's as samson says, magic is valuable to people who can exploit it. The Circles and Chantry believe in retaining the skills of mages without having to treat them as a person. How is that treating mages with dignity? Do you think the mages will truly be content to forever play the role of prized pet to the nonmages? It's similar to Leliana's relationship with Marjorlaine, you love them only when you can control them. Naturally, when they see their persecution, they'll lash out as she did.

Anders and Fiona then proceeded to give an example of why those rules existed that Templars can use to reinforce mage support for their rule. If the Circles are bad, so is the rebellion. As for mages being content... apparently more of them were than you think. We meet a mage in Redcliffe who did not support the rebellion, and in Vivienne's banter with Solas she states that most of the mages agreed with him. And while I agree that Vivienne might or might not be showing her bias there, I don't remember anyone ever attempting to contradict her, in person or in conversation with another.

 

In fact my understanding is that less than half of the voting representatives voted in favor of rebellion during Asunder; the ones who did won because they represented larger Fraternities, but the deciding vote (Rhys) had only become a member of his fraternity in order to cast this vote. My understanding is that there's either no reason to believe he tried to gauge what they wanted, or reason not to. Feel free to correct me on any of this: I haven't read the book and am trying to piece things together from forum posts, and for some reason I don't remember ever hearing a pro-mage account that went into any detail.

 

 

Well at least you are open about blood magic. Spirits used to kill is no more risky than spirits used to heal. If a demon intends harm, he'll do it unless the mage is vigilant enough. The Inquisition already uses Cole to kill. So long as those spirits operate in an ethical manner, I see no problem with it. Their abilities to read mind could help in fighting off maleficarum, criminals, and abominations.

 

Using spirits for anything is risky. The quote "Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain" is from a far less dark franchise than this one. And I'm not just talking about meeting a spirit for the first time, since we're not really sure what the rules are about spirits becoming corrupted. If there even are any hard-and-fast rules, and a spirit can't just become corrupted whenever it does anything contrary to its nature at all. At any rate, being forced to kill already corrupted one spirit. Asking that same spirit to heal probably would have had an altogether different effect. (And while I'm aware that being forced was probably part of the problem, any spirit that doesn't need to be forced to kill is already potentially a problem.)

 

Now I agree that if mages find a spirit who can be persuaded that the circles are a good idea, and then put that spirit to work, that might help. And if the College doesn't already intend evil, they could do worse than use another spirit of Justice to keep themselves on the straight and narrow. But they need to be careful the whole time.

 

It seems like a more effective criminal justice system than Rites of Annulments anyways.

 

If anything else can work, you're not supposed to use the Right of Annulment. If it's even being considered, it's already way too late for this to work. That's rather the point. (Assuming the RoA's not being misused by some idiot with a grudge who should never have been made a Templar, which we didn't need to see the Magehunter Shield to know happens.) This can be useful as a way of defusing a situation that would otherwise require one, however, if the mages are careful using it.

 

 

 

So much freedom that they have to turn to the Mage Collective to do their research? Even the Divine had to be covert to research the Rite of Tranquility. I disagree. I believe biased ignorant nonmages who don't know a thing about magic suppressed academic study out of ignorance. Such fear of pragmatism is the problem.

Okay, you're right on that score. My mistake. Still, Justinia did get the research done. And Cassandra is one of her strongest loyalists. I can see her allowing research into new methods. Vivienne you might be right about.

 

 

Maybe. Or maybe they will solve the Qunari problem. It'd be nice to see Tevinter regain it's glory a little in an expansion. Who's to say it won't happen. Or maybe it will be taken over by the Qunari. But Tevinter could be something Calpernia wanted it to be if Bioware made it so. And if it does, I can definitely see it challenging the Sunburst Throne or at least becoming so much of a threat to the White Chantry that it may be mentioned in an epilogue of a future DA game.

Tevinter never had glory. What it had before the First Blight was a Gilded Age. To hear you describe Tevinter's Gilded Age as glory is a bit worrying.

 

If Tevinter has glory in a later installment it'll be because it's completely cast off all that remains of that except maybe for the rule of Magisters. And that sounds more like something that would happen after a game it appears in (and specifically because the player caused it to) than something that happens before it starts.

 

Demonolgy is no different the spiritology. What if that research can benefit spirit healers? It's perfectly safe so long as the study is controlled for danger.

While I agree demonology is a branch of spiritology, to describe them as the same is a bit worrying. And to hear anything related to demons described as "perfectly safe" is even more so. Use "relatively safe." Or just "less dangerous."

[Sifr]

No she didnt, if she did Fiona wouldnt change the conversation and the Divine wouldnt have disbanded the College because of the same thing years before.
Never said Lambert was right, he should have only put Fiona in jail, the others were innocent.

But we are discussing the same things now, I'm out.

 

And again, the Divine didn't disband the College, what was disbanded was the previous conclave. The College still exists, it was just denied the chance to hold any more meetings until one was allowed to take place at the White Spire.

 

The Divine states the purpose of the Conclave on page 309-310 of Asunder as such;

 

"Let the mages debate a policy that both of us can live with"

"Let us hope you are correct, Enchanter, that this conclave allows the Circle and Chantry to build a new accord."

 

This means they were allowed to debate new ways in which the Circle could be organised and ways that the Circle and Chantry could ease the tensions that were plaguing them at the time. While it's doubtful that Justinia would have wanted the Circle to become fully independent, she does seem to have favoured relaxing restrictions on them and might have tried to compromise by allowing semi-autonomy while still under Chantry jurisdiction.

 

In fact, it's worth remembering that while the Templars reacted to Fiona's earlier vote of independence by ceasing the College from holding more meetings, the vote itself had been rejected by almost everyone, not embraced. Furthermore, Fiona would have been forced to relinquish her position as Grand Enchanter after putting forth the motion if it was actually illegal to do so, something that clearly didn't happen.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Except that it's never made clear whether Orsino knew the full extent of what Quentin was doing or where he was getting the corpses for his research? For all we know, Orsino believed that he was helping Quention push the boundaries of magical research, rather than aiding and abetting an insane serial killer who was trying to bring his wife back to life by constructing her out of bits of dead people?

In addition to the other stuff:

 

If someone's doing research on corpses, you gotta wonder where he's getting them. Not least because this is a setting that practices cremation due to necromancy being a known thing. If Orsino didn't wonder, he damn well should have.

[Sifr]

If someone's doing research on corpses, you gotta wonder where he's getting them. Not least because this is a setting that practices cremation due to necromancy being a known thing. If Orsino didn't wonder, he damn well should have.

 

While Varric jokes that it's because of Hawke, the mortality rate in Kirkwall is apparently high enough for Sebastian to notice and be concerned about it.

 

It's also high enough that both the Magistrate's son and Quentin were able to murder numerous people without anyone noticing, as well as Aveline needing more proof before she's willing to believe they have a serial killer active in the city, rather than one of the many other deaths that occur on a regular basis.

 

Betwen the refugee camps and Dark Town, as well as Lowtown and the Docks after dark, there's probably a dozen ways you can find a corpse in Kirkwall that no-one's going to miss. Kirkwall is an extremely dangerous city to live in when things are calm.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

While Varric jokes that it's because of Hawke, the mortality rate in Kirkwall is apparently high enough for Sebastian to notice and be concerned about it.

 

It's also high enough that both the Magistrate's son and Quentin were able to murder numerous people without anyone noticing, as well as Aveline needing more proof before she's willing to believe they have a serial killer active in the city, rather than one of the many other deaths that occur on a regular basis.

 

Betwen the refugee camps and Dark Town, as well as Lowtown and the Docks after dark, there's probably a dozen ways you can find a corpse in Kirkwall that no-one's going to miss. Kirkwall is an extremely dangerous city to live in when things are calm.

Which means that it's possible to get bodies without having to perform murders specifically for that purpose, if you have some combination of luck and patience coupled with a willingness to hang around neighborhoods nobody sane would hang around in. But when someone has a bunch of bodies that haven't been cremated, and are doing research on the form of magic which is the main reason these bodies are cremated, don't you think maybe you're supposed to ask questions?

[Sports72Xtrm]

You may. That's not the same as doing so correctly. What everyone who opposes the Circle seems to miss is that the Templars going bad is mainly a threat to the mages, and the mages going bad is a threat to everyone; even if these corrupted Templars did go after the rest of the world, they'd be soundly crushed due to their main unique ability being anti-magic. If the mages go after the rest of the world, they'll probably still be crushed, because rest of the world, but they'll be much harder to take down.

I'll just adress this point. These aren't just soldier's you can intimidate with a blade. These templars eventually loose themselves to the lyrium. Once they lose their minds to the lyrium, they become half-wits easily manipulated, by demons or darkspawn. If cut off from lyrium, they become desperate half-wits. Assuming they don't go insane by have red lyrium inconspicuously near them like Merideth, once they become red templars they surpass the strength of normal soldiers and are tainted just as any darkspawn. These conscripted humans become tin men- crystal monsters who wield blight magic and spread the blight and red lyrium. They force feed the populace red lyrium to increase their numbers, can make things animate, and become walking behemoths. Add to the complication that there are now intelligent Darkspawn and darkspawn magisters they can ally with or be subjegated by, they can create a blight that is more difficult to resolve since having a grey warden sacrifice themselves to kill an archdemon won't solve the trick anymore. It becomes a biological war the Chantry nor the Grey Wardens will be able defeat. Considering all this, I don't know where you get so much confidence in bad templars being able to be easily taken down.

 

 

Hawke was able to thwart an Annulment due to being a PC. My understanding is that Hawke was the only thing they had going for them that could do any such thing. If the mages aren't powerless against the Templars, they're still no match for the Chantry throwing as many of them as are around at it. Feynriel could maybe fight off an Annulment, if he knew one was coming and the Templars didn't bring in catapults to simply knock down the walls on him. (Though given his level of power he's likely either powerful enough to render the need for one moot, or powerful enough to be the reason one was necessary.) As for Avexis... is he the one with the dragons? If so, not good enough. A large enough force of Templars could probably handle a high dragon and its spawn.

Feynriel would only die if his position was easy to locate. As for Avexis, a regular savage high dragon and her brood with no thought of military tactics is hard to kill on it's own, but if guided by one who can direct them using tactics? I doubt even an army of templars could slay a brood of dragons fighting intelligently.

 

Anders and Fiona then proceeded to give an example of why those rules existed that Templars can use to reinforce mage support for their rule. If the Circles are bad, so is the rebellion. As for mages being content... apparently more of them were than you think. We meet a mage in Redcliffe who did not support the rebellion, and in Vivienne's banter with Solas she states that most of the mages agreed with him. And while I agree that Vivienne might or might not be showing her bias there, I don't remember anyone ever attempting to contradict her, in person or in conversation with another.

 

In fact my understanding is that less than half of the voting representatives voted in favor of rebellion during Asunder; the ones who did won because they represented larger Fraternities, but the deciding vote (Rhys) had only become a member of his fraternity in order to cast this vote. My understanding is that there's either no reason to believe he tried to gauge what they wanted, or reason not to. Feel free to correct me on any of this: I haven't read the book and am trying to piece things together from forum posts, and for some reason I don't remember ever hearing a pro-mage account that went into any detail.

 

Is some random guy the Inquisitor meets in Redcliffe an accurate sample of the will of the entire southern mages? What of the mages of Dairsmuid who was the first to be annuled, or the Aquetarian from this codex:http://dragonage.wik..._Circle_of_Magi? Or those who've tried to rebel in the past like those in the Ferelden Circle. No one knows the entire consensus of all the Circle population since they were represented by their Franternity spokesperson and most First Enchanters were killed in the White Spire revolt, Those at Adamant who held the vote if I remember correctly, were those who could only make the vote if they were allowed or fought to leave their Circle to represent their fraternity in Adamant but I never got the sense their was much dissent from the narrative of choosing to rebel. Granted by the time they reach Adamant, many mages were still making their way there. There was uncertainty sure as the Libertarians were all for independence, what was described as the "minority" fraternities voted submission, and the aquetarians were undecided. I can only conclude that the Aquetarians and the Libertarians fully agreed to rebellion in solidarity with Rhys tapped as their deciding vote thus representing the "majority".

[Sifr]

Which means that it's possible to get bodies without having to perform murders specifically for that purpose, if you have some combination of luck and patience coupled with a willingness to hang around neighborhoods nobody sane would hang around in. But when someone has a bunch of bodies that haven't been cremated, and are doing research on the form of magic which is the main reason these bodies are cremated, don't you think maybe you're supposed to ask questions?

 

It really boils down to Orsino's level of involvement with Quentin and whether they were penpals sharing research or he'd actually seen the experiments themselves and is far more sinister than we were lead to believe in DA2.

 

That Kirkwall is the sort of place that one could acquire bodies awaiting cremation would at least make it somewhat plausible that Orsino might not have been aware of the source of the bodies that Quentin was using... or if he did know on some level, chose to put his fingers in his ears and remain selectively oblivious, hoping that Quentin was just a sketchy weirdo, rather than a dangerous sketchy weirdo.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It really boils down to Orsino's level of involvement with Quentin and whether they were penpals sharing research or he'd actually seen the experiments themselves and is far more sinister than we were lead to believe in DA2.

 

That Kirkwall is the sort of place that one could acquire bodies awaiting cremation would at least make it somewhat plausible that Orsino might not have been aware of the source of the bodies that Quentin was using... or if he did know on some level, chose to put his fingers in his ears and remain selectively oblivious, hoping that Quentin was just a sketchy weirdo, rather than a dangerous sketchy weirdo.

I think at the very least he suspected.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'll just adress this point. These aren't just soldier's you can intimidate with a blade. These templars eventually loose themselves to the lyrium. Once they lose their minds to the lyrium, they become half-wits easily manipulated, by demons or darkspawn. If cut off from lyrium, they become desperate half-wits. Assuming they don't go insane by have red lyrium inconspicuously near them like Merideth, once they become red templars they surpass the strength of normal soldiers and are tainted just as any darkspawn. These conscripted humans become tin men- crystal monsters who wield blight magic and spread the blight and red lyrium. They force feed the populace red lyrium to increase their numbers, can make things animate, and become walking behemoths. Add to the complication that there are now intelligent Darkspawn and darkspawn magisters they can ally with or be subjegated by, they can create a blight that is more difficult to resolve since having a grey warden sacrifice themselves to kill an archdemon won't solve the trick anymore. It becomes a biological war the Chantry nor the Grey Wardens will be able defeat. Considering all this, I don't know were you get so much confidence in bad templars being able to be easily taken down.

Oh, so that's why Templars have to retire and are taken to a special hospice after they lose their minds. I thought it was because they couldn't fight any more and were unlikely to find any other employment.

 

And anyway, Meredith got away with what she did because nobody knew Red Lyrium's properties and because nobody who was supposed to be keeping an eye on her did. The former is no longer a problem, and as for the latter... well, it speaks to the same problem most Templar misconduct before the war started does: the Seekers were putting no effort into controlling them. And when the Red Templar Order was created, it had Corypheus's support and the advantage of the world already having gone to hell as they were starting up. Part of why Corypheus was so effective was because he had the perfect storm of the mage rebellion, the Orlesian Civil War, and the Templars as a whole rebelling to prevent the Chantry from doing anything about him. So if a second Red Templar Order started up, it wouldn't be nearly as effective, and that's assuming it even got off the ground.

[Boost32]

I think at the very least he suspected.

Suspected? For him to know how to performan blood magic and transform into a powerful Harvester without knowing a lot of Quentin's research? Its clear he knew everything about him, but was spineless, feared Meredith and was very interesses on the content of Quentin's research.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Suspected? For him to know how to performan blood magic and transform into a powerful Harvester without knowing a lot of Quentin's research? Its clear he knew everything about him, but was spineless, feared Meredith and was very interesses on the content of Quentin's research.

Well, you can know what his results were without knowing where the bodies came from. He'd have to be fairly dim for it never to have occurred to him over the course of years, but that's not the same as knowing that he knew for a fact.

[Sifr]

I think at the very least he suspected.

 

Yeah, I think he probably suspected by the time Hawke killed Quentin.

 

Suspected? For him to know how to performan blood magic and transform into a powerful Harvester without knowing a lot of Quentin's research? Its clear he knew everything about him, but was spineless, feared Meredith and was very interesses on the content of Quentin's research.

 

There's a difference between knowing the research and the man behind it.

 

I always though that Orsino found out far too late who he'd been dealing with, but couldn't reveal him without exposing his involvement with him and unwitting complicity in Quentin's actions. That this would have been the perfect ammunation Meredith could use against him to remove him, execute or tranquil him is definitely a reason for him to have stayed quiet on the matter.

 

And even Quentin isn't too deranged not to know that, so if he wanted to blackmail Orsino for help, he definitely would have him over a barrel.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Oh, so that's why Templars have to retire and are taken to a special hospice after they lose their minds. I thought it was because they couldn't fight any more and were unlikely to find any other employment.

 

And anyway, Meredith got away with what she did because nobody knew Red Lyrium's properties and because nobody who was supposed to be keeping an eye on her did. The former is no longer a problem, and as for the latter... well, it speaks to the same problem most Templar misconduct before the war started does: the Seekers were putting no effort into controlling them. And when the Red Templar Order was created, it had Corypheus's support and the advantage of the world already having gone to hell as they were starting up. Part of why Corypheus was so effective was because he had the perfect storm of the mage rebellion, the Orlesian Civil War, and the Templars as a whole rebelling to prevent the Chantry from doing anything about him. So if a second Red Templar Order started up, it wouldn't be nearly as effective, and that's assuming it even got off the ground.

Does the Seekers even have the manpower to oversee every templar order in each Circle? As well as those retired? And if a red templar order does start up again, will they be equipped to quell it? Are we certain the Templar Order will remain loyal to the Chantry? Or future mages? What if a darkspawn decides to taint a Titan- the source of all lyrium? Suddenly your templar army ranging in the thousands are addicted to the one substance that turns them into monsters. Let's not downplay how dangerous Merideth became and she was one red templar with no support. The elements for the perfect storm is still there- intelligent darkspawn, templars addicted to lyrium and feel marginalized and oppressed, and stubborn fools who hate each other and ignore problems under their nose.