Except that it wasn't illegal in any way, Justinia gave them the chance to discuss reforms and discussing independence counts as just that.
Lambert shutting down the entire thing and drawing swords to attack was the only illegal thing that happened in that room.
We don't know enough about the procedures in Thedas, if they even exist, to say that.
The meeting was specifically to discuss the Rite of Tranquility and nothing else. A fact Wynne reminds Fiona of.
For instance, where I live, any changes or additions to subject to be discussed have to presented and approved at least three days before the meeting for them to be valid.
My point was even when conditions were disagreeable the Inquisition never stooped to treating every Mage like a criminal for what they might do one day. They openly sought the aid of Mages and even made one, possibly more, their leader in order to help stop Mages that dangerous.
And I corrected you when you falsely claimed that pro-Templars believe societal collapse is somehow necessary for mage freedom to be unnaceptable.
I have acknowledged no such thing.
You did when you said, and I quote
"It seems that the only standard for working Mage Freedom that some will accept is that all Mages are perfect, never make any mistakes and are subservient. This is unreasonable"
Therefore, you admit the inevitability of both mass murder commited by mages and the acquisition of power over normal people.
Do I really have to explain how that is what you said? A basic understanding of the english language should be enough.
It is not the fact that they were Mages that caused their downfall but that they are flawed and fallible. In the cases of Merrill and Zathrien, their Clans are in fact not destroyed unless you the protagonist push them in that direction. I do not discount their faults but to Both of them went out of their way to try and undo/mitigate the damage caused by their actions. In the case of the Clan that summoned and subsequently killed by Imshael, it was the intervention of a third party, Michel, that caused things to go wrong for them not the Keeper.
And if Zathrian hadn't been a mage, he could not have created the werewolf curse and his clan wouldn't have been wiped out by them.
If Marethari hadn't been a mage, she wouldn't have released a demon.
If the Keeper in ME hadn't been a mage, he wouldn't have summoned a Forbidden One.
Without magic, none of these clans would have been destroyed.
suggest they randomly decided to destroy their clans one day is false.
Would you quit the strawman arguments? I have suggested no such thing.
There are more than a few non Mage leaders that have caused more damage than all of those combined.
No, there are actually aren't.
First, we are discussing the quality of leaders. As such, the main criteria we need to use is how much good they have done for their people, not how much destruction they have visited upon others.
And the only leaders who came close to destroyed the entirety of the group they lead were the Seven. Except Tevinter actually survived the First Blight, much diminished but it survived.
So, Corypheus is actually a better leader than the Keepers seen so far.
One rebellion brought on by centuries of systematic abuse at the hands of Templars. The Circle system has never been without tension between Mages, Templars and the Chantry. It began with the Divine almost declaring an Exalted March and since the Right of Annulment has been invoked 19 times. Mages and Templars both saw it coming.
Nice way of avoiding the argument.
This rebellion ended with neither Andrastian society destroyed nor enslaved.
The Keepers have destroyed multiple of their clans through their use of magic.
Therefore, the Circle system has more sucess than the Dalish one.
My criteria for success as I have stated before is Mages living freely with their non-Magical counterparts while in full control of themselves and their abilities.
So, like I said, "mage freedom."
That is literally your criteria.
That a few such as Merrill and Zathrien make poor decisions doesn't justify every Mage being confined because they might make a mistake one day.
I could give you a very extensive list as to why mages should be confined (it would start with the Blight) but Merril and Zathrian are twoo good reasons.
The lore on this subject has been established for years. You cannot just ignore it because they didn't hold your hand and walk you through the steps.
Please, post a list of all the ways in which Augurs help.
And let me clarify one thing right off the bat
"Have spirits teach mages" does not count because that is not a good thing they are doing to tribe. That is a consequence of them being near normal people of which there would be no need were they in the Circle like they should.
The Avvar like their way of life and have no desire for decadent cities. Do not assume everyone wants the same things out of life or possess the same standards.
Find me the Avvar on that map.
Because I see Orlais, Ferelden, the Free Marchs, Antiva, Nevarra and the Anderfels, all nations with the Circle.
Things might be better with the new Divine should the Circle be reinstated but all of that could change with a new Divine and Mages and Templars could be at each others throats again. Hoping that the next Divine will have their interest at heart but being completely powerless to do anything about it should she not does not sound like a good place for Mages going forward.
Look at that, you can point ways in which a terrible past system can be revived over generations. But I thought you were trying so hard to argue how there is no way it could ever come to rule again.
If you don't see where I'm going with this, it's Tevinter.
Feynriel would only die if his position was easy to locate.
Feynriel himself seems to sympathize with the Templars if he becomes someone who can threaten the system, since he moves to Tevinter and says "Oh, so this is why the Templars are what they are." And if a dreamer becomes a Circle Mage and somehow doesn't lose his mind enough to need to be Tranquilized, they know where he is: in the Circle. Knock the Tower down, and he'll probably die of it.
As for Avexis, a regular savage high dragon and her brood with no thought of military tactics is hard to kill on it's own, but if guided by one who can direct them using tactics? I doubt even an army of templars could slay a brood of dragons fighting intelligently.
Then send three. The main merit of Templars fighting an individual mage is anti-magic. The main merit of Templars fighting anything bad enough that they would even consider an Annulment is that they have reserves. And that's assuming that they don't send a priest to research "how does one go about killing a dragon" as a first step towards approving a request to have a freaking dragon in their Circle.
Is some random guy the Inquisitor meets in Redcliffe an accurate sample of the will of the entire southern mages?
Would I have kept typing after mentioning him if he was?
No one knows the entire consensus of all the Circle population since they were represented by their Franternity spokesperson and most First Enchanters were killed in the White Spire revolt, Those at Adamant who held the vote if I remember correctly, were those who could only make the vote if they were allowed or fought to leave their Circle to represent their fraternity in Adamant but I never got the sense their was much dissent from the narrative of choosing to rebel. Granted by the time they reach Adamant, many mages were still making their way there. There was uncertainty sure as the Libertarians were all for independence, what was described as the "minority" fraternities voted submission, and the aquetarians were undecided. I can only conclude that the Aquetarians and the Libertarians fully agreed to rebellion in solidarity with Rhys tapped as their deciding vote thus representing the "majority".
Yeah, but the less likely we are to know the Circle revolt was the will of the majority, the less confidence we have that another mage revolt is inevitable. If they didn't even want this one and it's mostly because they had leadership inclined to force it on them "representing" them, then one would imagine they're likely to be more careful about who they elect next time. And this is assuming that the mages' better reasons for rebelling aren't all answered by the reforms the two Divines that actually have Circles put forth.
Does the Seekers even have the manpower to oversee every templar order in each Circle? As well as those retired?
They can pop in on the Circles without warning and catch anything unpleasant that's happening. The Templars could stop a Seeker who came from leaving, but one imagines they have some system in place for that, and that they'll send an army to investigate what happened. And one might imagine the retired Templars in the hospices are being watched by someone.
Are we certain the Templar Order will remain loyal to the Chantry? Or future mages?
I'm not certain future mages will remain loyal to the Chantry. That's the entire point of the Circles. As for the Templar Order, that's why there are Seekers. If someone wants to corrupt the Templar Order, they'll have a tough time of it.
What if a darkspawn decides to taint a Titan- the source of all lyrium? Suddenly your templar army ranging in the thousands are addicted to the one substance that turns them into monsters. Let's not downplay how dangerous Merideth became and she was one red templar with no support.
Apparently the Titan has... some sort of defense to keep darkspawn away. Which is good. If a Titan got Tainted Red Templars would probably be the least of everyone's worries. I say this knowing full well how dangerous they are.
That said, I think it's implied there's more than one Titan, which is really scary but at least means that there will be more blue lyrium even if a Titan did get Tainted.
The elements for the perfect storm is still there- intelligent darkspawn, templars addicted to lyrium and feel marginalized and oppressed, and stubborn fools who hate each other and ignore problems under their nose.
Not quite. Much of the perfection of the storm was pressure in the Circles that took a long time to build. If nothing else was accomplished (and that is unlikely) the Circle Mages at least let off some steam and each faction was purged of its worst influences by that nonsense in the Hinterlands. Besides which one major factor to the problem was that Celene and Gaspard and Briala were actively trying to kill each other at the time: if they should have tried to come to terms faster than they did, the fact remains that if Corypheus had struck before their cold war heated up in TME they probably would have been able to at least temporarily. If all of this could restart, the fact remains that it'll take longer to head back to square one than it will for the College to go wrong if it's going to do so.
And anyway if you're really afraid of marginalized Templars, why are you taking their jobs?
The fact that Meredith usurped the viscounts's seat and had DEATH SQUADS killing NONMAGES in broad daylight should have been a hint that something should be done.
The fact that Meredith usurped the viscounts's seat and had DEATH SQUADS killing NONMAGES in broad daylight should have been a hint that something should be done.
The fact that Meredith usurped the viscounts's seat and had DEATH SQUADS killing NONMAGES in broad daylight should have been a hint that something should be done.
Bah, my Hawke was running his own personal death squad in Kirkwall for the better part of a decade.
After several centuries, one wonders how well "new" describes the Circles. And while you do argue against the idea that the Circles can be tweaked, I'm not sure I buy these arguments, and this particular argument is a bit questionable in that context. But more on that below.
This is the standard under which it is safe to have mages in the general population. I'm not going to pretend it doesn't suck to be a mage if mages as a whole are forced into the Circles, but being a mundane under mage freedom if mages don't meet it and are free anyway has the potential to be worse. Zathrian's clan probably survived because a PC demigod probably chose that over murdering them all. If the player doesn't choose that, or if hypothetically the PC had come along too late or decided to do without the Dalish so as to go on one less suicide mission, the survivors could very well have envied the dead. I think you're making far too little of what could have (and in some of my world states did) happen(ed) because of Zathrian making one lapse in judgement centuries ago. And if it's only one decision and only one clan's even in jeopardy (if we assume that the werewolves are only a threat to that one clan, which they're not) what about the other clans which got wiped out because one of their mages went abomination? If he's not typical of Keepers, he's also far from unique.
I did specify not all Dalish clans abandon their mages. It's just a thing to bear in mind, that the system (to the extent that one system can be said to exist among the Dalish) does have a darker side. Even if being a Keeper (or even a free non-Keeper like Elora) is better than being a Circle Mage (and I'd be delusional to think freedom didn't have its upside) this is the other side of the coin.
And I'm not denying that the worst of what the Dalish are suffering is because of humanity destroying their country (though the extent to which the humans are at fault is less cut-and-dry than you imply.) I fail, however, to see what this has to do with whether or not they're making their situation worse by allowing Zathrian and Marethari to be the responsible ones. Nor do I fail to see how Zathrian being respected due to his cultural role even after his act of vengeance and its consequences become obvious is different from the Seers of Rivain still being respected despite an apparently larger than normal number of abominations, except that the Seers who didn't turn aren't directly responsible for the disaster miles away and so the people lay it at the other Seer's door. I'm not arguing that it's bad enough to make the country look like Mordor, just that it apparently happens more often there due to them not trying as hard to stop it.
As for your assertion that it's surprising the Rivaini Andrastians and Qunari would put up with abominations killing people: yes. Yes it is. But Word Of Gaider says that they just treat it like a natural disaster when it happens: they bury the dead and get on with their lives. If they aren't entirely blase about it, that's still not flying into a rage or trying to solve the problem or anything.
What you've missed about my objection to blood mage rulers is that I don't view them as any morally worse than the ones already in power. If Celene had blood magic, I think she'd use it in a hot second. And then she'd be more unpleasant to work for than she already is, just like the worst of the magisters. She's abusing the power she has and people are getting hurt. She doesn't need more power, and she certainly doesn't need power that works best if you hurt people to power it. And mages who are morally like her don't need to rule.
You are right about us not having too much to go on in the Epilogue. So, theoretically the College could work awesomely, though I doubt it and doubt even more that that will last even if it starts off well. We also don't know much about the way the reformed Circles are run, but given that the worst apples among the Templars seem to have wound up in the Hinterlands or taking Red Lyrium (and at any rate don't seem to be working for the Inquisition to judge by the War Table missions as described on the wiki) the Order just lost a lot of its worst qualities. Not to mention that Cassandra is visibly shocked to hear from Cole about the worst of White Spire's atrocities: one might imagine that she looks out for them as the new Circles form under her rule and fires anyone who tries to stop her from seeing it. I'm less sure of Vivienne, but she's usually only a bad person when she personally benefits in some way, and she's not defending the way certain Templars acted. In fact she flatly admits to Cassandra that the Templars should have been overseen better. I'd need actual evidence to believe she allows rape to happen under her watch.
I do think a lot of the stuff you seem to object to about the Circles will probably still happen. The reason mages aren't allowed to keep their children is probably because you really don't want that kid underfoot if something goes wrong. The reason the Right of Annulment exists is because sometimes something goes so far to hell that there's really no acceptable solution and the mages are all either dead, possessed, or both by the time the Templars have gotten together enough to do anything about it. As likely would have happened if the Warden hadn't gotten involved in Ferelden's Circle.
If I'm worried about what will happen when Cassandra or Vivienne's successor inherits this system... well, I'm also worried about what will happen when Leiliana is gone. Maybe the Circles will fail again. Given enough time they probably will. But I feel fairly confident that the College, unless it does a lot of the same things the Circles did, will be a step in the wrong direction starting much faster than it will take the Templars to forget the last generation's mistakes.
Relative to Thedas and Mages in general the Circle has only existed for a short while. As I have stated before many societies with Free Mages have been around far longer than the Chantry and have outlived the Circles. I do not argue that can't be tweaked but that tweaking won't solve the overall injustice the Circle impress and that they are not needed.
The ONLY way that Zathrian's Clan is wiped out is if the PC(You) kill them. The two other scenarios involve Zathrian curing his clan, in one he even sacrifices his own life to do so. And of the Dalish cases we know of Zathrien is unique in that his actions directly harm his Clan. Merrill and Merithari harmed no one in their Clan and Imshael was only able to kill the Dalish because Michel disrupted the spell that was containing him. As you know, Abominations are rare. Merrill's account is not a daily or probably even annually event. Remember that the Dalish have been nomadic for hundreds of years now and there are only so many clans. Even there was an Abomination among the Dalish every twenty years they would be extinct by now.
The difference between the Dalish and Rivain is that the Dalish cherish their Magical history and lore. Not everyone in Rivain does. I do not mean to imply that Gaider is wrong but only to point out these statements are incongruous. Considering how hard line the Quinari and Andrastians are against magic, though I suspect that most Andrastians in Rivain are more in league with Leliana's views, I find it very hard to believe that they just sit and do nothing about Abominations. I pointed out before that members of the Qun in Rivain follow Seers, Orlesian Nobles cling to their Rivaini heritage and Andrastian nobles respect the Seers also. Throwing Abominations into that mix just doesn't add up.
I agree with your point on Tevinter. Rulers such as them, Mage or no, should be held accountable for their actions.
I acknowledge the possibility that the College could fail, but perhaps for different reasons. For the most part I see it being a success. My problem with the Circle remaining as an institution is that the Mages would yet again be at the complete mercy of the Chantry and Templars. The Right of Annulment is a good example. Usually the Divine has to sign off on it but in some cases such as Kirkwall the Knight Commander can use their own personal discretion. In that case most of the Mages were no where near the Chantry but many were killed without hesitation anyway.
There was also the Annulment of the Antivan Circle: "The third time the Right of Annulment was invoked on a Circle of Magi, in 3:09 Towers, Knight-Commander Gervasio of Antiva killed all of the city's mages for demonic possession. However, a massacre may have already occurred at the hands of Knight-Captain Nicolas, with the Right invoked as cover-up. The Seekers of Truth later apprehended Ser Nicholas, who had left the order to kill mages and admitted to having murdered over a hundred." - Description on "Magehunter" shield. Not every Annulment is for the reasons the Chantry claims and there is nothing the Mages can do about it before hand and afterwards they are dead and can't give their side. And should some survive and escape then what? The Chantry has done too well a job of poisoning Chantric societies against them even taking lengths to erase Mage heroes such as Inquisitor Ameridan
dragonflight288 et TheEnigmousPretentiator aiment ceci
As anyone should be. Suicide is not a wise tactical move toward any goal.
So the Mages should have just accepted losing all those rights Vivienne likes toting for something they didn't do or are any criticisms against the circles or Templars illegal since mages made the criticism?
And I corrected you when you falsely claimed that pro-Templars believe societal collapse is somehow necessary for mage freedom to be unnaceptable.
Some on these forums and elsewhere have made that argument. Note I used the word "some". I do not attribute that view to everyone that disagrees with me.
You did when you said, and I quote
"It seems that the only standard for working Mage Freedom that some will accept is that all Mages are perfect, never make any mistakes and are subservient. This is unreasonable"
Therefore, you admit the inevitability of both mass murder commited by mages and the acquisition of power over normal people.
Do I really have to explain how that is what you said? A basic understanding of the english language should be enough
Still no. A Mage making a mistake, say Merrill for example, does not lead to mass murder or subjugation. IF her Clan attacks they die because the PC defends themselves, not as a result of Merrill's Magic or mistakes. In all her years in Kirkwall Merrill never uses her Blood Magic to force someone to do her will. Both Dorian, Morrigan and Vivienne make mistakes but none of them results in mass murder.
And if Zathrian hadn't been a mage, he could not have created the werewolf curse and his clan wouldn't have been wiped out by them.
If Marethari hadn't been a mage, she wouldn't have released a demon.
If the Keeper in ME hadn't been a mage, he wouldn't have summoned a Forbidden One.
Without magic, none of these clans would have been destroyed.
You are forgetting the fact the Demons exist and can enter Thedas without the aide of Mages. Magic, the Fade, Demons are a reality of this world. Zathrian's Clan is only wiped out if YOU join with the Werewolves and help them. The thing that started this entire revenge saga was not the fact that Zathrian was a Mage, it was human racism and cruelty. Marathari releases the Demon for the purpose of destroying it. Without her the Demon would still exist to prey on Mages and non Mages alike.
No, there are actually aren't.
First, we are discussing the quality of leaders. As such, the main criteria we need to use is how much good they have done for their people, not how much destruction they have visited upon others.
And the only leaders who came close to destroyed the entirety of the group they lead were the Seven. Except Tevinter actually survived the First Blight, much diminished but it survived.
So, Corypheus is actually a better leader than the Keepers seen so far.
There are. No Mage in the series has caused as much damage as Logain did during the Blight. No Mage has done as much to Orlais as Celene and Gaspard did or what Florianne tried. The Chantry's Exalted Marches have destroyed two Elvhen homelands and caused the deaths of thousands. No Keeper can boast such carnage. Bronka detroyed her entire house. The Qunari, famously anti-Magic, are responsible for some of the bloodiest conflicts in Thedas history. Ironically it was the Mages of the Circle that were instrumental in beating the Qunari back. Mages are not responsible for the Blight. As Corypheus says it was already there and there is evidence of the taint existing in Thedas before Tevinter.
Nice way of avoiding the argument.
This rebellion ended with neither Andrastian society destroyed nor enslaved.
The Keepers have destroyed multiple of their clans through their use of magic.
Therefore, the Circle system has more sucess than the Dalish one.
The Rebellion does destroy the Circle and the Templar Order as institutions, perhaps permanently, and nearly the Chantry. There is only one Clan that I am aware of that is actually wiped out and only because the Spell containing the Demon is disrupted by someone else. Before that the Keeper's Magic is working as intended. The Circle is in no way more successful than the Dalish. The Circle utterly failed in it's function and potentially never recovers. The Dalish are nowhere near such dire prospects.
So, like I said, "mage freedom."
That is literally your criteria.
It is not. If every Mage regularly sowed destruction and were one tempter tantrum away from becoming an Abomination then I would support them being confined out of necessary public safety. Nothing I have seen in three games and extended media has suggested that this is the case. Most Mages we encounter are in complete control of their abilities as are Mages in general. That some make questionable decisions does not merit the entire group being subjugated and discriminated against.
I could give you a very extensive list as to why mages should be confined (it would start with the Blight) but Merril and Zathrian are twoo good reasons.
Merrill never harms anyone. Nor do Morrigan or Dorian. It is grossly unfair to punish them for the crimes of others. It is grossly unfair to punish them for what they might do one day. Because "Zathrian made poor decisions" is not a good reason for imprisoning an entire group of people.
Please, post a list of all the ways in which Augurs help.
And let me clarify one thing right off the bat
"Have spirits teach mages" does not count because that is not a good thing they are doing to tribe. That is a consequence of them being near normal people of which there would be no need were they in the Circle like they should.
Augurs foster relationships between Spirits and their Hold. This includes the Augur listening to wisdom and warnings from their "gods" and sharing it with the Hold. Via this relationship the Spirits help keep Demons away making everyone, Mage or not, safer. The spirits will also aide the mundane warriors in battle. The Augur is also capable of spotting anyone who draws the attention of Demons. They don't only council the thane but other Mages as well.
Here is the Augur speaking on some of this:
The training of Mages does count. A Mage that is not trained properly can have their Magic develop in irrevocably unpredictable ways. Throwing them in a Circle would not change this.
Find me the Avvar on that map.
Because I see Orlais, Ferelden, the Free Marchs, Antiva, Nevarra and the Anderfels, all nations with the Circle.
The Frostback Mountains. You suggest that the Avvar's Free Mages are holding them back from becoming a huge nation? How do you then explain Rivain? You completely misunderstand the Avvar. The Avvar do not want the same things as everyone else. They stick with their gods and culture because they choose to, not at the behest of their Mages. The Avvar marched with Andraste when she fought the Imperium. Had they wanted to carve out land to build huge societies they could have or similarly asked Andraste to give them land like she did the Elves but they did not.
Things might be better with the new Divine should the Circle be reinstated but all of that could change with a new Divine and Mages and Templars could be at each others throats again. Hoping that the next Divine will have their interest at heart but being completely powerless to do anything about it should she not does not sound like a good place for Mages going forward.
Look at that, you can point ways in which a terrible past system can be revived over generations. But I thought you were trying so hard to argue how there is no way it could ever come to rule again.
If you don't see where I'm going with this, it's Tevinter.
Free Mages does not equate to Tevinter. The Avvar, Dalish and Rivain have all had Free Mages for hundreds of years, if not thousands, even before Circles and Templars and none of them resemble Tevinter in any way.
Barquiel, dragonflight288, thesuperdarkone2 et 1 autre aiment ceci
So the Mages should have just accepted losing all those rights Vivienne likes toting for something they didn't do or are any criticisms against the circles or Templars illegal since mages made the criticism?
What a bizarre question. If their lives mattered more to them than their rights, then of course they should have just accepted.
I think they made their priorities clear when they pledged themselves to Turdvinter.
By the way, even though (as her detractors are all too quick to point out) Vivienne has not appeared to be affected, she has still stated -- on multiple occasions -- that she did/does not support the Templars taking away the mages' rights. She agrees with the Inquisitor if he/she says that the Templars made their beds, and also says "By all means, protest abuses of Templars(...)"
What Vivienne has astutely pointed out, however, is that the mages chose to rebel in the most self-defeating sorts of ways. Choosing to break away not only hurt their already-bad opinion with the public (whom they would have to deal with if/when they break away) but then there is the mere reality that the mages were not about to win any fight against the forces opposed to them. Vivienne says they were outnumbered 100 to 1 (not literally, I realize, but the point is that any fight was hopeless).
Her bottom line is, protests are not very effective if the participants get themselves killed ahead of time.
Drasanil, zeypher et Riverdaleswhiteflash aiment ceci
Relative to Thedas and Mages in general the Circle has only existed for a short while. As I have stated before many societies with Free Mages have been around far longer than the Chantry and have outlived the Circles. I do not argue that can't be tweaked but that tweaking won't solve the overall injustice the Circle impress and that they are not needed.
I'm not saying they're needed. I'm saying they help. If they're unjust, so is just letting abominations form.
The ONLY way that Zathrian's Clan is wiped out is if the PC(You) kill them. The two other scenarios involve Zathrian curing his clan, in one he even sacrifices his own life to do so.
The only canon way that Zathrian's clan is wiped out is if we kill them. What would have happened if we hadn't come along or had had the option to just say "screw this, I've gone on enough suicide missions already?" Zathrian makes clear that he needs us to get the heart, and that he certainly wouldn't have cured the surviving human werewolves (who are also victims who should not be overlooked) if we hadn't made him.
And of the Dalish cases we know of Zathrien is unique in that his actions directly harm his Clan. Merrill and Merithari harmed no one in their Clan and Imshael was only able to kill the Dalish because Michel disrupted the spell that was containing him.
That Merrill harmed nobody in her clan may have been only because Marethari took it upon herself to become the danger to them, or may have been the strength of the seal holding the demon she was speaking to. That Marethari harmed nobody was pure luck. (Or untrue if we count Pol, who apparently heard something about Merrill from Marethari that had him scared enough of her to run into a Vaterral.)
And if Michel was the reason Imshael got out of his bindings, the Dalish clan was the reason he was close enough to them to do so. And the reason Imshael was in the world at all.
As you know, Abominations are rare. Merrill's account is not a daily or probably even annually event. Remember that the Dalish have been nomadic for hundreds of years now and there are only so many clans. Even there was an Abomination among the Dalish every twenty years they would be extinct by now.
Well, Abominations appearing aren't necessarily a death sentence for a clan, though they are a serious danger to it. But nobody's denying they're rare. I just want this rare occurrence to occur surrounded by Templars when it happens at all.
The difference between the Dalish and Rivain is that the Dalish cherish their Magical history and lore. Not everyone in Rivain does. I do not mean to imply that Gaider is wrong but only to point out these statements are incongruous. Considering how hard line the Quinari and Andrastians are against magic, though I suspect that most Andrastians in Rivain are more in league with Leliana's views, I find it very hard to believe that they just sit and do nothing about Abominations. I pointed out before that members of the Qun in Rivain follow Seers, Orlesian Nobles cling to their Rivaini heritage and Andrastian nobles respect the Seers also. Throwing Abominations into that mix just doesn't add up.
Again: I find it incongruous too. If I wanted to explain it, I'd assume the Rivaini Qunari and Andrastians are somewhat more relaxed about magic than the mainline Chantry and Qun.
I agree with your point on Tevinter. Rulers such as them, Mage or no, should be held accountable for their actions.
It's hard enough to do that with Muggle Celene, though I agree that it'd be nice. Still, try holding a Magister accountable. There's a tiny fraction of a chance Celene is going to get what's coming to her. There's still one with a Magister, but it's rather smaller.
I acknowledge the possibility that the College could fail, but perhaps for different reasons. For the most part I see it being a success.
I see it being a serious risk.
The Right of Annulment is a good example. Usually the Divine has to sign off on it but in some cases such as Kirkwall the Knight Commander can use their own personal discretion. In that case most of the Mages were no where near the Chantry but many were killed without hesitation anyway.
There was also the Annulment of the Antivan Circle: "The third time the Right of Annulment was invoked on a Circle of Magi, in 3:09 Towers, Knight-Commander Gervasio of Antiva killed all of the city's mages for demonic possession. However, a massacre may have already occurred at the hands of Knight-Captain Nicolas, with the Right invoked as cover-up. The Seekers of Truth later apprehended Ser Nicholas, who had left the order to kill mages and admitted to having murdered over a hundred." - Description on "Magehunter" shield. Not every Annulment is for the reasons the Chantry claims and there is nothing the Mages can do about it before hand and afterwards they are dead and can't give their side. And should some survive and escape then what? The Chantry has done too well a job of poisoning Chantric societies against them even taking lengths to erase Mage heroes such as Inquisitor Ameridan
Knight-Commanders can abuse the Right of Annulment. Getting away with it is harder for them to do. You'll note that the Seekers went after the Templar who appears to have been responsible for the false Antivan Annulment. And of course there's Word Of Gaider that if Meredith hadn't died during her Annulment, she'd have been called on the carpet for it. It's not in the Chantry's interest for Annulment to be abused, so they look into any that get through. This is probably why part of false Annulments are rare enough that Annulments of any sort only happen about once a century.
Zathrian's Clan is only wiped out if YOU join with the Werewolves and help them. The thing that started this entire revenge saga was not the fact that Zathrian was a Mage, it was human racism and cruelty.
While I was going to let JB handle your response to his post, this one I feel I have to butt in on. While I agree that the humans in question arguably needed killing, they did not need what Zathrian did to them. Nor did their descendants or the people who weren't involved who got infected need it.
You seem to miss that one of our side's major arguments in favor of keeping mages sequestered is that when they give in to understandable human qualities such as anger, hatred, or desire to see a dead loved one again, and find that their common human (or equivalent) decency isn't enough to stop them going too far with those feelings, bad things happen. A mage can be more dangerous than an otherwise equal malefactor without being morally worse than he is for no other reason than because the mage is magical. If you can argue that mundane torture is no less immoral than what Zathrian did, you can't argue that it would have ended as badly for anyone involved. Hell, none of the people involved we met centuries after this started would have even been involved if Zathrian had merely been a skilled enough hunter to murder the rapists in their beds.
The reason I'm pointing this out in response to your response to JB's post is that it was what I was trying to explain to you with the point about Tevinter Magisters being no more morally worse than Orlesian nobles, but you don't seem to have gotten it judging by your response to it and your response to JB. And if I don't view this as enough on its own to justify the Circles, I'm still troubled that you don't seem to even consider it as a factor.
Huh. People keep saying that Keeper's aren't the ultimate authority in their clans. That doesn't seem to be a tenable position, given what we have directly observed.
Zathrian had the authority to keep dragging his clan back to werewolf infested forests, year after year.
More directly, Marethari kept her clan stuck to Kirkwall's backside for a decade, and the only way anyone had of protesting that decisions was leaving the clan, as Master Ilen and his apprentice were doing before Meretharil and Merrill's private war got them all killed.
And while we're on the topic of Merethari and the Dalish having deep reverence for all mages and blah blah blah, maybe someone can remind me what Merethari pulls Hawke aside to talk about when Feynriel needs some help with demons in his dreams.
Oh. Thats right. She tells Hawke to make him Tranquil if he can't be saved. This means the Elves have their own version of the Rite of Tranquility. So much for the Rite being some horrible thing only the Circles and villains from Tevinter use.
Drasanil, TobiTobsen, Riverdaleswhiteflash et 1 autre aiment ceci
Huh. People keep saying that Keeper's aren't the ultimate authority in their clans. That doesn't seem to be a tenable position, given what we have directly observed.
Zathrian had the authority to keep dragging his clan back to werewolf infested forests, year after year.
More directly, Marethari kept her clan stuck to Kirkwall's backside for a decade, and the only way anyone had of protesting that decisions was leaving the clan, as Master Ilen and his apprentice were doing before Meretharil and Merrill's private war got them all killed.
And while were on the topic of Merethari and the Dalish having deep reverence for all mages and blah blah blah, maybe someone can remind me what Merethari pulls Hawke aside to talk about when Feynriel needs some help with demons in his dreams.
Oh. Thats right. She tells Hawke to make him Tranquil if he can't be saved. This means the Elves have their own version of the Rite of Tranquility. So much for the Rite being some horrible thing only the Circles and villains from Tevinter use.
Yeah well right there, that's your problem; you're letting facts get in the way of care-bearing the issue
Huh. People keep saying that Keeper's aren't the ultimate authority in their clans. That doesn't seem to be a tenable position, given what we have directly observed.
I think most of it is from the Dalish Origin in Origins, where we learn that the Dalish's father was a Keeper and the elders of the clan ordered him not to take Mahariel's mother as a bond-mate but had to go behind their backs to do so.
The logical conclusion is that, while the Keeper guides them and makes a lot of the decisions, is not the sole authority in the clan.
The halla master in Zathrian's clan outright tells us that it's not the Keeper who decides where the clan goes, it's the halla, and they follow them through a bond of friendship.The Keeper simply decides when they go.
Zathrian had the authority to keep dragging his clan back to werewolf infested forests, year after year.
Or, if what we learn from the halla master is true, the Halla felt it was important the clan kept going back there.
More directly, Marethari kept her clan stuck to Kirkwall's backside for a decade, and the only way anyone had of protesting that decisions was leaving the clan, as Master Ilen and his apprentice were doing before Meretharil and Merrill's private war got them all killed.
Yeah, Merethari was an idiot who, despite being the keeper, endangered her entire clan for years on end because she wanted to help Merrill. She was too focused on being a mother than an authority figure.
And in the end, I feel TME and Inquisition proves Merrill was right about the eluvians all along.
And while we're on the topic of Merethari and the Dalish having deep reverence for all mages and blah blah blah, maybe someone can remind me what Merethari pulls Hawke aside to talk about when Feynriel needs some help with demons in his dreams.
Oh. Thats right. She tells Hawke to make him Tranquil if he can't be saved. This means the Elves have their own version of the Rite of Tranquility. So much for the Rite being some horrible thing only the Circles and villains from Tevinter use.
I personally have never denied that tranquility is something that can be done in an absolute worst-case scenario with mages who can't control their powers.
My issue has been on who judges that a mage is a worst-case scenario and their impartiality on the matter.
By the way, even though (as her detractors are all too quick to point out) Vivienne has not appeared to be affected, she has still stated -- on multiple occasions -- that she did/does not support the Templars taking away the mages' rights. She agrees with the Inquisitor if he/she says that the Templars made their beds, and also says "By all means, protest abuses of Templars(...)"
What Vivienne has astutely pointed out, however, is that the mages chose to rebel in the most self-defeating sorts of ways. Choosing to break away not only hurt their already-bad opinion with the public (whom they would have to deal with if/when they break away) but then there is the mere reality that the mages were not about to win any fight against the forces opposed to them. Vivienne says they were outnumbered 100 to 1 (not literally, I realize, but the point is that any fight was hopeless).
Her bottom line is, protests are not very effective if the participants get themselves killed ahead of time.
Heck the mages had to rely on the goodwill of Alistair/Anora and Teagan just to stay alive long enough to sell themselves into slavery to the Tevinters.
Heck the mages had to rely on the goodwill of Alistair/Anora and Teagan just to stay alive long enough to sell themselves into slavery to the Tevinters.
Not sure what it says for Alistair but the Codex entry for Anora says that she had to make an impassioned speech with the Landsmeet for them to accept giving the mages refuge.
... then she lost significant political-support after the debacle with Alexius and the 'Vints.
I was disappointed with her, I expected more and after reading that codex I couldn't believe she was railroaded to do the same thing as Alistair.
I could see him doing idiot things like that, but Anora? Such a shame what BioWare did to her.
I was disappointed with her, I expected more and after reading that codex I couldn't believe she was railroaded to do the same thing as Alistair.
I could see him doing idiot things like that, but Anora? Such a shame what BioWare did to her.
Turned out Cailan was the brains of the outfit after all. Anora was just stealing credit for his good governance.
I was disappointed with her, I expected more and after reading that codex I couldn't believe she was railroaded to do the same thing as Alistair.
I could see him doing idiot things like that, but Anora? Such a shame what BioWare did to her.
Well, having the rebel mages in Redcliffe was only a limitedly stupid idea, and if it works out it's a major boost to Ferelden's power. And while I would have warned her she was risking another army of dead people, nobody should be looked down on for not expecting Fiona to sell herself as a slave to a Tevinter Magister if they have any other option. My base assumption about people I know nothing of is that they're more intelligent than that.
So the Mages should have just accepted losing all those rights Vivienne likes toting for something they didn't do or are any criticisms against the circles or Templars illegal since mages made the criticism?
There are many layers between "passive acceptance" and "violent rebellion"
Heck they already had the Divine willing to listen to them, after this Tranquility thing was dealt with.
Not sure what it says for Alistair but the Codex entry for Anora says that she had to make an impassioned speech with the Landsmeet for them to accept giving the mages refuge.
... then she lost significant political-support after the debacle with Alexius and the 'Vints.
Damn shame about that. Anora is great.
My guess is she was gambling the Conclave would pay off.
Peaceful resolution, the mages owe Ferelden a favor. And she looks kind and altruistic to her people for helping the CHantry out.
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