I'd rather live with the small risk of death at the hands of out-of-control superpowers.
Are you willing to ask an entire world to do the same? Because you're not deciding whether you're okay with that for yourself. You're deciding if you're okay with that for everyone.
Are you willing to ask an entire world to do the same? Because you're not deciding whether you're okay with that for yourself. You're deciding if you're okay with that for everyone.
To quote Isabella.
"I'm more likely to get shanked in a bar than eaten by an abomination."
I say there's been enough free mages in the history of Thedas that proves free mages don't automatically mean the end of the world or death of everyone around them by default, especially if said mages have been trained in using their powers safely.
This'll probably be my last post for at least a week as I'm going on vacation.
If the party abomination didn't eat her at least once I'll be shocked.
Jokes aside, that's not a very good argument for not trying as hard to prevent abominations. That deaths of other kinds are more common isn't the best reason for deciding not to cut down on this kind of death. Especially since having mages free will make barfights a lot more interesting.
More likely than not the diehard pro-templars like TKS, boost, and warder would simply claim it to be a fairy tale ending and how if this was reality, the mages would destroy the world if given freedom and would continue acting like this even if the game proves their beliefs wrong.
Did the Bad Future change your opinion regarding mages?
Wrex and Bakara are 2 people, they cant control every Krogan in the existence, even if they could they will die someday and after them who will lead the bilionésima or trillions of Krogans?To be fair, it's not as bad an idea to cure it if Wrex is in charge of the krogans. He's apparently capable of keeping their warlike culture in check and rendering the genophage unnecessary.
I say there is enough free mages in the history of Thedas to show us they can cause irreparable damage.To quote Isabella.
"I'm more likely to get shanked in a bar than eaten by an abomination."
I say there's been enough free mages in the history of Thedas that proves free mages don't automatically mean the end of the world or death of everyone around them by default, especially if said mages have been trained in using their powers safely.
This'll probably be my last post for at least a week as I'm going on vacation.
More likely than not the diehard pro-templars like TKS, boost, and warder would simply claim it to be a fairy tale ending and how if this was reality, the mages would destroy the world if given freedom and would continue acting like this even if the game proves their beliefs wrong.
It is reality mages already proved they are threat to the world more than once in this setting ,there is no way that freedom would solve problem of threat they pose in fact it would made threat much worse becuase that pretty much by nature means much lesser control over mages.So yes it is fairy tale ending "freedom will solve your every problem" .
To quote Isabella.
"I'm more likely to get shanked in a bar than eaten by an abomination."
I say there's been enough free mages in the history of Thedas that proves free mages don't automatically mean the end of the world or death of everyone around them by default, especially if said mages have been trained in using their powers safely.
This'll probably be my last post for at least a week as I'm going on vacation.
Yeah , you can thanks circles for that they contain most of them and not allow them bring destruction upon world.
Yes and they did very good job especially when we have to fix mess those free mages cause.Pretty much in case of free mages it is luck as far that mighty hero shows up to save the day ,certain day hero may not show up to save the day from mage mess and it will end poorly.World was close to end of the world thanks to mages more than once.
So you agree that the freedom of a tiny few is more important than the lives of everyone else.
It's not that simple. There is a continuum of possibilities between "imprison everyone to keep them safe" and "imprison no one regardless of the risk they pose". I simply draw the line at a different place than you.
My country actually allows for the continued internment of some people considered especially dangerous. The point is there are high legal hurdles for that, and nobody gets that treatment without having proven they're a danger to society, on an individual basis!!!!!!!. You won't get imprisoned just because you're an extremist muslim and might fly a plane into a skyscraper one day, and we all have to live with the danger that this might happen again. Such risks are the price we pay for freedom.
There are societies where this is different, but I - and everyone else I know well enough to know their inclination - wouldn't want to live there, but rather live with the risk, so why should I expect Thedas' mageborn to meekly accept their imprisonment?
I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a mage that passes his/her harrowing and any appropriate testing ought to be able to earn their freedom as graduation from the circle- and given how Vivienne's mages are described as enjoying historical new freedoms I wouldn't be surprised if she did just that.
Ofc she would not have done that.I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a mage that passes his/her harrowing and any appropriate testing ought to be able to earn their freedom as graduation from the circle- and given how Vivienne's mages are described as enjoying historical new freedoms I wouldn't be surprised if she did just that.
Ofc she would not have done that.
She is not a idiot like another Divine candidate.
Ehh, her reign does describe mages having both unprecedented freedom and responsibility, the latter of which appears to be missing from Leliana/Cassandra's reign.
Ehh, her reign does describe mages having both unprecedented freedom and responsibility, the latter of which appears to be missing from Leliana/Cassandra's reign.
Yes, she gave them more freedom not total freedom.
Right, and that's what I was describing no? Mages are still required to join the circle, take the harrowing, etc; but that doesn't mean they'll be necessarily be forced to live in the actual tower for the rest of their lives arbitrarily. There's no sense in locking up people that have proven themselves worthy for life outside the tower.
edit: Cullen in DAI is reasonable enough about this too; give them jobs like mixed military service or to work as healers. The Wardens used them as archivists and librarians in Last Flight.
It's not that simple. There is a continuum of possibilities between "imprison everyone to keep them safe" and "imprison no one regardless of the risk they pose". I simply draw the line at a different place than you.
My country actually allows for the continued internment of some people considered especially dangerous. The point is there are high legal hurdles for that, and nobody gets that treatment without having proven they're a danger to society, on an individual basis!!!!!!!. You won't get imprisoned just because you're an extremist muslim and might fly a plane into a skyscraper one day, and we all have to live with the danger that this might happen again. Such risks are the price we pay for freedom.
There are societies where this is different, but I - and everyone else I know well enough to know their inclination - wouldn't want to live there, but rather live with the risk, so why should I expect Thedas' mageborn to meekly accept their imprisonment?
And most countries quarantine people they suspect might be so much as a carrier for certain diseases without recourse. They certainly don't let them wander around freely. The difference is, you can test for and cure something like ebola, and lift the quarantine. There is no way to cure magic or the risk of possession.
The part where you said they are free after their Harrowing is not.Right, and that's what I was describing no? Mages are still required to join the circle, take the harrowing, etc; but that doesn't mean they'll be necessarily be forced to live in the actual tower for the rest of their lives arbitrarily. There's no sense in locking up people that have proven themselves worthy for life outside the tower.
And most countries quarantine people they suspect might be so much as a carrier for certain diseases without recourse. They certainly don't let them wander around freely. The difference is, you can test for and cure something like ebola, and lift the quarantine. There is no way to cure magic or the risk of possession.
Ebola is contagious and an almost guaranteed killer. Magic isn't. Magic carries obvious risks hence the necessity of having circles but Cullen and Vivienne are right in asserting that there needs to be some element of life outside of the circle offered to those who prove themselves ready.
The part where you said they are free after their Harrowing is not.
They have proven they can resist possession, not that they will never be possesed.
And (thankfully) Vivienne views doesn't match the one you described, I very much doubt she would let them go after the Harrowing.
If they prove themselves resistant to possession it makes little to no sense to force them to live in the tower permanently; Vivienne herself is proof of this as she was able to come and go from her circle at her leisure, and being able to do so is probably one of the few reforms she'd actually implement. She's against the idea of a lack of magical responsibility and management.
As for the idea that they can still be possessed, anyone but Seekers can be possessed.
Right, and that's what I was describing no? Mages are still required to join the circle, take the harrowing, etc; but that doesn't mean they'll be necessarily be forced to live in the actual tower for the rest of their lives arbitrarily. There's no sense in locking up people that have proven themselves worthy for life outside the tower.
edit: Cullen in DAI is reasonable enough about this too; give them jobs like mixed military service or to work as healers. The Wardens used them as archivists and librarians in Last Flight.
There is no such thing as "proven" mage even mage that went through harrowing can easily end as abomnation as Anders and Uldred show us ,avoiding causing disaster by other means.
There is no such thing as "proven" mage even mage that went through harrowing can easily end as abomnation as Anders and Uldred show us ,avoiding causing disaster by other means.
Wynne, Vivienne, and the botanist Wynne has you track down are all mages that leave the circle whenever they want? Incidentally, Uldred is the definition of an unproven mage. Anders too, neither would qualify as being responsible enough to leave the circle.
Wynne, Vivienne, and the botanist Wynne has you track down are all mages that leave the circle whenever they want? Incidentally, Uldred is the definition of an unproven mage.
And? Avoiding that Wynne was an abomnation and as Asunder showed us she posed threat to others because of that ,from what i recall mages were allowed to leave circle when they had permission ,even in ostagar templars allowed only 7 mages to get out.In first place idea letting mage roam without supervision is silly and pretty much allows mages like orsino to do things they were doing and also endanger society in different ways.
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Wynne, Vivienne, and the botanist Wynne has you track down are all mages that leave the circle whenever they want? Incidentally, Uldred is the definition of an unproven mage. Anders too, neither would qualify as being responsible enough to leave the circle.
Actually, Uldred was a well respected member of the Ferelden circle. He was, in fact, the very definition of a proven mage. He'd been through his harrowing, was sought out by others for his knowledge, was high up in the ranks of his fraternity, and so on.
Speaking of 'proven' mages, how about that Wilhelm. Boy, he sure endeared himself to the people of Honnleath.
And? Avoiding that Wynne was an abomnation and as Asunder showed us she posed threat to others because of that ,from what i recall mages were allowed to leave circle when they had permission ,even in ostagar templars allowed only 7 mages to get out.In first place idea letting mage roam without supervision is silly and pretty much allows mages like orsino to do things they were doing and also endanger society in different ways.
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See, you're just proving my point. Wynne, the botanist, Vivienne, and the archivist/researchers in Weisshaupt are perfect examples of how to properly engage mages outside of the circle. The problem with Anders, Uldred, and stupidass-Fiona are that they wanted freedom for freedom's sake; the point that Vivienne and Cullen are trying to make is that mages have value in society and outside the circle tower so long as they're able to contribute. The problem prior to the rebellion is that mages have no place allowed for them in society or more importantly the job market outside of the circle; they can't be hired as guards, healers, librarians, researcher, into the army, commerce, etc. This is why Cullen suggests offering mages the ability to join the military services/healing units and Vivienne glows at the idea of integrating them into the chantry; it's because their skills are being put to productive use rather than magic being done and researched... just because.
edit: Uldred was a libertarian extremist, why in the hell would anyone let that guy out?
As for the idea that they can still be possessed, anyone but Seekers can be possessed.
My understanding is that mages are easier for demons to find. Even if I'm wrong there (which I doubt) a possessed mage is more dangerous than a possessed... basically anything else thanks to their own magic.
He is one more motive of the need to wipe out the Libertarians.Actually, Uldred was a well respected member of the Ferelden circle. He was, in fact, the very definition of a proven mage. He'd been through his harrowing, was sought out by others for his knowledge, was high up in the ranks of his fraternity, and so on.
Speaking of 'proven' mages, how about that Wilhelm. Boy, he sure endeared himself to the people of Honnleath.
You aren't wrong, a demon cant possess a non-mage like it can with a mage.My understanding is that mages are easier for demons to find. Even if I'm wrong there (which I doubt) a possessed mage is more dangerous than a possessed... basically anything else thanks to their own magic.
See, you're just proving my point. Wynne, the botanist, Vivienne, and the archivist/researchers in Weisshaupt are perfect examples of how to properly engage mages outside of the circle. The problem with Anders, Uldred, and stupidass-Fiona are that they wanted freedom for freedom's sake; the point that Vivienne and Cullen are trying to make is that mages have value in society and outside the circle tower so long as they're able to contribute. The problem prior to the rebellion is that mages have no place allowed for them in society or more importantly the job market outside of the circle; they can't be hired as guards, healers, librarians, researcher, into the army, commerce, etc. This is why Cullen suggests offering mages the ability to join the military services/healing units and Vivienne glows at the idea of integrating them into the chantry; it's because their skills are being put to productive use rather than magic being done and researched... just because.
Wynne once again by any mean wasn't safe mage in fact neither vivienne or any mage are safe , grey warden mages already have proved us on many instances they aren't by any mean non-threatening.You were talking about "proven" mages while there is no such thing as proven mage wynne and viviene and any other mage can end as an abomnation just like uldred or anders , in fact as i said wynne was an abomnation. There is no way of telling who will become an abomnation and who won't plain and simple.
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