1551 réponses à ce sujet

[diaspora2k5]

Wynne once again by any mean wasn't safe mage in fact neither vivienne or any mage is safe , grey warden mages already have proved us on many instances they aren't by any mean non-threatening.You were talking about "proven" mages while there is no such thing as proven mage wynne and viviene and any other mage can end as an abomnation just like uldred or anders , in fact as i said wynne was an abomnation. There is no way of telling who will become an abomnation and who won't plain and simple.  

Again, you prove my point as any mage that is actually integrated into society don't appear to have any issues- none of the Weisshaupt Wardens risk possession because doing dangerous and higher intensity magic isn't their job; being an archivist doesn't require high intensity or dangerous magic. Bontanists don't risk possession picking plants. Mages that seek freedom and power like the libertarians do however risk possession precisely because they lack a purpose outside of their circle bubble. Incidentally, you will have zero instances of anyone being possessed by summoning fire or cooling their beer with ice magic. Anders- a mage that was ridiculously irresponsible let a spirit (turned demon) in; Uldred was deliberately summoning them, and Avernus the worst of the lot was actively researching demonology.

[Iakus]

Freedom always carries risk. You could apply that argument to every single crime ever omitted: "We could've imprisoned them in advance, then nothing of this would've happened." Nonetheless, we don't have to undergo yearly psychological examinations to prove we are unlikely to turn into serial killers in future. Where would you draw the line? Would you apply the same standards that underlie your arguments to non-mages? If so, then you're at least honest, though I wouldn't want to live in a world ruled by your principles. I'd rather live with the small risk of death at the hands of out-of-control superpowers.

 

However, if you would *not* apply the same standards to non-mages, then this is bigotry - you impose restrictions on a minority you would never accept for yourself.

There's a difference here though.

 

While a given mage can choose whether or not to abuse their magic, there is also the risk that even a good mage can be taken over by a demon and be forced to do horrific things against their will.  And we have seen what kind of destructive potential that has.  Whole families or even villages can be wiped out before Templars can respond.

 

Which is why if a way can be found to make the Seeker ritual save enough to be used on mages (I suppose one could ironically call it "The Tranquility Solution") it could change the whole dynamic of the Circles

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again, you prove my point as any mage that is actually integrated into society don't appear to have any issues- none of the Weisshaupt Wardens risk possession because doing dangerous and higher intensity magic isn't their job; being an archivist doesn't require high intensity or dangerous magic. Bontanists don't risk possession picking plants. Mages that seek freedom and power like the libertarians do however risk possession precisely because they lack a purpose outside of their circle bubble.

<facepalm> i literally pointed to you that any mage is threat for society and yes there appear issues zathrian , wynne , avernus , grey warden mages in dai , Wilhelm.Now you are lying to yourself , of course they can be possessed and pose threat as any other mage those mages in Weisshaupt are as proven as Uldred or Avernus.That Ines was picking up flowers doesn't any way protect her from possession or causing disaster she can as eaisly cause one as any other mage like uldred or anders... And no to your information possession or doing something stupid isn't exclusive to libertarians .   

 

So once again you can't predict who will become an abomnation and who won't ,thus there is no such thing as proven mage that is safe from becoming an abomnation.

[Iakus]

You aren't wrong, a demon cant possess a non-mage like it can with a mage.
In Jaws of Hakkon, a Inquisition's mage became possesed because he was angry because his friend was killed, the non-mages cannot be possesed like that.
And only a possessed mage is a abomination, because the demons powers add to the mages powers, becoming a much more powerful entity.

Close, but not entirely accurate.

 

Non-mages can be possessed, but it's much more difficult.  As can animals, and even trees (you know, Sylvans) Mages have a connection to the fade that nonmages lack, though, making them targets for demons.  And Dreamers have an even stronger connection, making them veritable demon magnets.

 

But even a Tranquil can be possessed.  They almost never are, though, because demons don't even recognize them as living beings, since they have no connection to the Fade (for the same reason, dwarves generally aren't possessed either)

[diaspora2k5]

<facepalm> i literally pointed to you that any mage is threat for society and yes there appear issues zathrian , wynne , avernus , grey warden mages in dai , Wilhelm.Now you are lying to yourself , of course they can be possessed and pose threat as any other mage those mages in Weisshaupt are as proven as Uldred or Avernus.That Ines was picking up flowers doesn't any way protect her from possession or causing disaster she can as eaisly cause one as any other mage like uldred or anders... And no to your information possession or doing something stupid isn't exclusive to libertarians .   

 

So once again you can't predict who will become an abomnation and who won't ,thus there is no such thing as proven mage that is safe from becoming an abomnation.

Again, you've haven't been able to give anyone an example of a mage integrated into society, a mage with an actual normal job becoming possessed. Thanks for proving my point by using Anders, Uldred, and the DAI Warden Mages, the former two being libertarian extremists and the latter as an active duty suicide squad. Thanks mang.

 

edit: You won't even be able to demonstrate a magic being possessed through the application of mundane mage much less in general everyday life. No mage in the DA universe gets possessed arbitrarily hence why Vivienne and Cullen want to integrate them into society.

[Ieldra]

And most countries quarantine people they suspect might be so much as a carrier for certain diseases without recourse.  They certainly don't let them wander around freely.  The difference is, you can test for and cure something like ebola, and lift the quarantine.  There is no way to cure magic or the risk of possession.

Possession doesn't come out of the blue. People have to *agree* to let a demon in, remember? So here's where I'd treat mageborn differently: signs of emotional instability. In normal people, you can shrug that off as merely annoying unless it's really extreme, in a mage, you can't afford to ignore it since it makes you susceptible to exactly the kind of emotional manipulation easily exploited by demons. I think that it is inevitable that the mageborn are held to a higher standard of emotional stability than the non-mageborn, but the main point is that (1) you can learn that, and (2) you judge the individual, not the accident of birth. And you can actually to something to minimize the risk that doesn't mean "lock them away", though admittedly that must remains an option for the incurable cases.

[Iakus]

Again, you've haven't been able to give anyone an example of a mage integrated into society, a mage with an actual normal job becoming possessed. 

Connor Guerrin.

 

Amelia Stannard

 

The Baroness of Blackmarsh

 

Amalia or Matthias (potentially)

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again, you've haven't been able to give anyone an example of a mage integrated into society, a mage with an actual normal job becoming possessed. Thanks for proving my point by using Anders, Uldred, and the DAI Warden Mages, the former two being libertarian extremists and the latter as an active duty suicide squad. Thanks mang.

<Double facepalm> I already have explained that any mage is threat because of human flaws you are free to ignore facts and yes. i was able to do that once again grey wardens are mages whith job and are integrated with society. Pretty much i have already proved there is no such thing as "proved" mage because once again you can't tell which mage will becomone an abomnation and which won't and no integrating mage with society and giving him normal job doesn't by any mean makes them immune to possession so your statement is ridiculous.
   

[diaspora2k5]

Possession doesn't come out of the blue. People have to *agree* to let a demon in, remember? So here's where I'd treat mageborn differently: signs of emotional instability. In normal people, you can shrug that off as merely annoying unless it's really extreme, in a mage, you can't afford to ignore it since it makes you susceptible to exactly the kind of emotional manipulation easily exploited by demons. I think that it is inevitable that the mageborn are held to a higher standard of emotional stability than a normal, but the main point is that (1) you can learn that, and (2) you judge the individual, not the accident of birth.

I wouldn't peg mage libertarians as being the paragons of stability either. I wouldn't be surprised if Vivienne justifiably put them to the sword first for helping to start this clusterF.

 

 

Connor Guerrin.

 

Amelia Stannard

 

The Baroness of Blackmarsh

 

Amalia or Matthias (potentially)

Untrained mage tutored by a blood mage that was originally going to be made tranquil for being dangerous.

 

Again a child from outside the circle, the exact person who would have to go to a circle for training first.

 

See: Ieldra.

 

See: Point 2.

 

 

<Double facepalm> I already have explained that any mage is threat because of human flaws you are free to ignore facts and yes. i was able to do that once again grey wardens are mages whith job and are integrated with society. Pretty much i have already proved there is no such thing as "proved" mage because once again you can't tell which mage will becomone an abomnation and which won't and no integrating mage with society and giving him normal job doesn't by any mean makes them immune to possession so your statement is ridiculous.
 

You haven't said any facts, and I'm leery as to whether you actually know what grey wardens are.

 

 

[Iakus]

Possession doesn't come out of the blue. People have to *agree* to let a demon in, remember? So here's where I'd treat mageborn differently: signs of emotional instability. In normal people, you can shrug that off as merely annoying unless it's really extreme, in a mage, you can't afford to ignore it since it makes you susceptible to exactly the kind of emotional manipulation easily exploited by demons. I think that it is inevitable that the mageborn are held to a higher standard of emotional stability than a normal, but the main point is that (1) you can learn that, and (2) you judge the individual, not the accident of birth.

Yes, you have to agree, but demons are very tricky.  They know how to manipulate people.  Remember in Night Terrors, how the demons are able to sway Hawke's companions with little more than words.  Even Merrill, who should know better, is susceptible.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You haven't said any facts, and I'm leery as to whether you actually know what grey wardens are.

I said facts and fact is that any mage can become possessed and there is no way to prove you won't become possessed.I know what grey wardens are and to my information they are mages (at least when we talk about their mages) that are allowed to roam free and have work outside circles.  

[diaspora2k5]

I said facts and fact is that any mage can become possessed and there is no way to prove you won't become possessed.I know what grey wardens are and to my information they are mages (at least when we talk about their mages) that are allowed to roam free and have work outside circles.  

Grey Warden Mages aren't people with normal jobs outside of the circle, they're conscripts to a suicide squad, all of those who actually get possessed actually having an affinity for blood magic. The idea you'd actually have them a part of society is absurd.

[Ieldra]

Yes, you have to agree, but demons are very tricky.  They know how to manipulate people.  Remember in Night Terrors, how the demons are able to sway Hawke's companions with little more than words.  Even Merrill, who should know better, is susceptible.

Yeah, and that made no sense at all. They knew what they faced, demons can't control people's minds, and these "temptations" were so crude that any even remotely rational person would've seen through it. I might've bought it had the demon been able to pose as a friend in a normal life scenario, but that scene in DA2 failed hard. If you want a convincing account, read The Last Flight.

[diaspora2k5]

Yeah, and that made no sense at all. They knew what they faced, demons can't control people's minds, and these "temptations" were so crude that any even remotely rational person would've seen through it. I might've bought it had the demon been able to pose as a friend in a normal life scenario, but that scene in DA2 failed hard. If you want a convincing account, read The Last Flight.

LF has probably one of the better renditions of magic and demons.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Grey Warden Mages aren't people with normal jobs outside of the circle, they're conscripts to a suicide squad, all of those who actually get possessed actually having an affinity for blood magic. The idea you'd actually have them a part of society is absurd.

They are people with job outside the circle i don't know what you consider normal job and they aren't suicide squads at least not more than normal soldiers... And no ,you don't need to be blood mage to become possessed nor you can tell mage won't use blood magic in first place.So once again giving mage "normal" job won't protect them from possession.

[Iakus]

Yeah, and that made no sense at all. They knew what they faced, demons can't control people's minds, and these "temptations" were so crude that any even remotely rational person would've seen through it. I might've bought it had the demon been able to pose as a friend in a normal life scenario, but that scene in DA2 failed hard. If you want a convincing account, read The Last Flight.

I think the scene was less than impressive because we only heard the words.  Demons are creatures of spirit.  They were playing on their emotions on a deeper level.

 

We just heard the desire demon promise to resurrect Wesley for Aveline.  Aveline, however, was probably being reminded of every tender moment she had with him, and the agony of watching him die (or having to kill him herself)  before the taint took him.

 

Isabela wasn't just being offered a boat (even a big boat) She was being offered the freedom to live her life as she wanted again.  The demons was probably playing with her sense of being stifled in Kirkwall, her fear of Castillon, her free-spirited nature.  All on a level much deeper than language.

 

And so on.

[diaspora2k5]

They are people with job outside the circle i don't know what you consider normal job and they aren't suicide squads at least not more than normal soldiers... And no ,you don't need to be blood mage to become possessed nor you can tell mage won't use blood magic in first place.So once again giving mage "normal" job won't protect them from possession.

Again, nobody's been possessed through the use of mundane magic, even Justice was the product of the Baroness' blood magic. You can incidentally also see who may start using blood magic outside of Tevinter. Comparing Wardens to general soldiers, hoo boy.

[Iakus]

Again, nobody's been possessed through the use of mundane magic, even Justice was the product of the Baroness' blood magic. You can incidentally also see who may start using blood magic outside of Tevinter. Comparing Wardens to general soldiers, hoo boy.

Wait, what?  People can only be possessed through blood magic?  

 

I think I lost track of something here...

[diaspora2k5]

Wait, what?  People can only be possessed through blood magic?  

 

I think I lost track of something here...

What? No. Circle mages haven't ever been possessed when blood magic isn't involved. Vengeance is the end result of the Baroness' shenanigans, Amelia was at risk due to her grandfather's demonology, Wynne's symbiosis occurred as a result Uldred summoning demons in some massive perverse coup. We haven't seen a circle mage be willingly released- temporarily or otherwise and then subsequently become an abomination.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again, nobody's been possessed through the use of mundane magic, even Justice was the product of the Baroness' blood magic. Comparing Wardens to general soldiers, hoo boy.

*coughs* Wynne ,and Justice is just spirit brought across the veil what isn't big problem for a mage in first place ,same for blood magic any mage can end using blood magic.Avoiding that wardens are specialized to fight specific type of enemy and independant from country there is no much difference.

[Iakus]

Here's another example of an ordinary (even courageous) mage being possessed:  First Enchanter Casimira

 

From the codex entry for Staff of Violation

 

Old friend,

First Enchanter Casimira was no blood mage! Hogwash! Your story of her investing dark arts into the staff is just that: a fable.

Casimira was, in fact, the first leader of Kirkwall's Circle of Magi. She was saddled with the great task of transforming a decrepit, crumbling prison into a proper home for mages transferred to her from all over Thedas. Some of those mages were apostates, men and women one step away from being rendered Tranquil, and it was her unfortunate task to keep order.

How many battles did she fight in those early days? How much blood was spilled on these grounds? Casimira had to be a hard woman, but she did it to keep the templars from declaring the Right of Annulment and killing us all.

And your other rumor that she was arrested by the first knight-commander? I am telling you it isn't so. I have studied the records, and the truth of the matter is that Casimira was taken by a demon and slain before she could endanger the tower. The templars admired her strength in holding the demon back long enough for them to act. It was a noble sacrifice, and Casmira's staff was kept by the first enchanters to commemorate this. It saddens me that people choose to dwell on its form rather than the lesson it signifies.

 

— A letter by First Enchanter Orsino, 9:26 Dragon

[Dabrikishaw]

I'm a little late for this, but the difference between mages and Krogan is one can actually kill all Krogan should they prove to be too much to handle. Magic is a force that can't be destroyed so just killing mages isn't a solution.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Yeah, and that made no sense at all. They knew what they faced, demons can't control people's minds, and these "temptations" were so crude that any even remotely rational person would've seen through it. I might've bought it had the demon been able to pose as a friend in a normal life scenario, but that scene in DA2 failed hard. If you want a convincing account, read The Last Flight.

 

What does not make sense about it? Hawke can walk out of that quest with power from a lesser demon showing its true form.

 

Why could a companion not done the same with Desire or Pride?

 

-- Pride could have given Fenris, Merrill, or Varric some degree of power that would have helped them in their goal.

-- Aveline could have gotten Wesley recreated in the Fade for her to come back to every night.

-- Ditto Isabela with a ship, though she probably would have been unhappy to not get a real ship, but demons are not known for giving you exactly what you want (even Torpor exaggerates in the deal he makes good on -- "The strength of TEN men!").

 

'Only thing that does not make sense about this quest is if you do it late, and Varric/Aveline have stowed away their personal issues.

[The Baconer]

Ofc she would not have done that.
She is not a idiot like another Divine candidate.

 

But that's exactly what Vivienne's own experience was in the Circle.

 

Of course, if she goes hard-Tevinter, ensuring potential competitors don't get the same opportunity would make sense.

[Shienis]

Yeah, and that made no sense at all. They knew what they faced, demons can't control people's minds, and these "temptations" were so crude that any even remotely rational person would've seen through it. I might've bought it had the demon been able to pose as a friend in a normal life scenario, but that scene in DA2 failed hard. If you want a convincing account, read The Last Flight.

 

Well, if you want to start talking about what made sense and what didn't - the whole DA2 made no sense at all, so we'll just all happily ignore all Kirkwall Circle, mages and templars both. And if we ignore Meredith&co, because no even remotely rational person would have done things that she did in that game, the templars aren't that bad. Right?