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[Boost32]

Ask the Avvar, the Rivaini's and the Grey Wardens.

The same Avvars who made a dragon possesed? The same Rivaini who consider abominations just a natural disaster? The same Grey Wardens who almost summoned a demon army to Corypheus?

[TK514]

Ah there is that condescension classic to you people. You are just proving my point. Glad I was never pro Templar if it meant being lumped with you lunatics

 

How's that codex entry search coming?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Tks advocated killing all mages at birth.

 

TKS is the sole lunatic holding such beliefs.

 

Can I point out just how hypocritical this makes you? You are stereotyping, the thing that the staunchly pro-mage players decry about mage regulation policies (missing entirely what the point/purpose of those policies are). "Not ALL mages are blood-mages/abominations!" (*two seconds later*) "A-ha! See? One Templar is crazy. I told you their entire lot is bad!"

 

Not that, mind you, it is at all surprising to see you not practice what you preach -- zealots never do.

[The Baconer]

I was going to agree with you until you mentioned Rhys, all Libertarians should be killed, specially the one who helped to start a war.

 

Nah.

 

Rhys wasn't a Libertarian btw.

[Vilio1]

TKS is the sole lunatic holding such beliefs.
 
Can I point out just how hypocritical this makes you? You are stereotyping, the thing that the staunchly pro-mage players decry about mage regulation policies (missing entirely what the point/purpose of those policies are). "Not ALL mages are blood-mages/abominations!" (*two seconds later*) "A-ha! See? One Templar is crazy. I told you their entire lot is bad!"
 
Not that, mind you, it is at all surprising to see you not practice what you preach -- zealots never do.

Murdering everyone who doesn't follow the chantry party line is not much better, and it wasn't TKS who suggested it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Tks advocated killing all mages at birth.

He did. As far as I can recall Drasanil, JB and I never have. I don't think even Warder is that crazy. And I think TKS gave that idea up as a bad job when even we told him it was counterproductive and immoral.

 

 

Murdering everyone who doesn't follow the chantry party line is not much better, and it wasn't TKS who suggested it.

I was pretty sure we were just talking about the dangerous ones. You know, like Uldred. Because while murdering Rhys or Pre-Justice Anders is hard to argue for, things would be better if Uldred, Adrian, or Post-Justice Anders had just suddenly not woken up one morning.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Tks advocated killing all mages at birth.

And? In first place i didn't even mention it here lately.

 

 

TKS is the sole lunatic holding such beliefs.

 

It is called being pragmatist ,shame a lot of people are too emotional about solving problems.

[Boost32]

Murdering everyone who doesn't follow the chantry party line is not much better, and it wasn't TKS who suggested it.

If they are Libertarians they should, those are terrorist disguised as a fraternite.

[Vilio1]

I was pretty sure we were just talking about the dangerous ones. You know, like Uldred. Because while murdering Rhys or Pre-Justice Anders is hard to argue for, things would be better if Uldred, Adrian, or Post-Justice Anders had just suddenly not woken up one morning.

Post-Justice Anders, sure. He was a walking disaster waiting to happen. I don't really remember if Uldred was considered dangerous, I thought he was simply a loner who didn't want to work as a teacher (it's been a while since I've played the game, so correct me if I am wrong). I disagree completely about Adrian.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Post-Justice Anders, sure. He was a walking disaster waiting to happen. I don't really remember if Uldred was considered dangerous, I thought he was simply a loner who didn't want to work as a teacher (it's been a while since I've played the game, so correct me if I am wrong). I disagree completely about Adrian.

He wasn't known to want to work as a teacher. Apparently that wasn't the case. You're right that he wasn't considered dangerous; the First Enchanter actually thought he was helping reduce the blood mage population in the Tower. One wonders how he managed to get away with that two-faced nature, but whatever. The fact remains that if he had been caught, I'd have recommended slipping him some Quiet Death somehow. Or, you know, doing something else to make it non-obvious he was assassinated on account of **** only knows what the fallout will be if the Templars are caught at this.

 

I'm also not sure you have a case with Adrian. She murdered a man and pinned it on her former lover for political gain. I guess I'm kinda being a hypocrite since I'm advocating doing the exact same thing to her (minus the pinning on someone else bit, though I might if I was sure I wouldn't get caught) but I'm not sure that invalidates my point that she's dangerous.

[Dean_the_Young]

To quote Isabella.

"I'm more likely to get shanked in a bar than eaten by an abomination."

 

Just going to point out that Isabella is saying that in the context of within a system in which the majority of potential abominations are far away from the bars she spends time at. The odds are as low as they are because of the system in play- obviously if there were more potential abominations about, her odds of being killed by them would go up.

 

If she, say, lived and stayed in rural Rivaine, her odds of being killed by an abomination would go up. And her chances of being shanked in a bar would go down, since I doubt there are many bars in rural Rivaine where abominations are treated like natural disasters.

[Dean_the_Young]

And most countries quarantine people they suspect might be so much as a carrier for certain diseases without recourse.  They certainly don't let them wander around freely.  The difference is, you can test for and cure something like ebola, and lift the quarantine.  There is no way to cure magic or the risk of possession.

 

Well, that and that people with ebola either die or get safe in (relatively) short order.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Just going to point out that Isabella is saying that in the context of within a system in which the majority of potential abominations are far away from the bars she spends time at. The odds are as low as they are because of the system in play- obviously if there were more potential abominations about, her odds of being killed by them would go up.

 

If she, say, lived and stayed in rural Rivaine, her odds of being killed by an abomination would go up. And her chances of being shanked in a bar would go down, since I doubt there are many bars in rural Rivaine where abominations are treated like natural disasters.

They're still rare, even in Rivain. If they're treated like natural disasters, try to remember that most people who live in the hurricane-heavy areas don't die of them. I don't really think that that approach is justified here, since if I could I'd try to minimize the number of hurricanes too, but I'm not arguing that this arguably foolish policy is absolutely going to kill everyone in Rivain or anything.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ebola is contagious and an almost guaranteed killer. Magic isn't. Magic carries obvious risks hence the necessity of having circles but Cullen and Vivienne are right in asserting that there needs to be some element of life outside of the circle offered to those who prove themselves ready.

 

Just for the record, in the 'quarantine theory' analogy, magic isn't the disease- abominationhood. Magic is just the symptom of abominationhood in a dormant state.

 

When an abomination outbreak happens, it can be mapped much more closely to an ebola outbreak. People in proximity are almost guaranteed to die, or get infected and spread the disease more (the conversion of new abominations, summoning of new demons) in a chain reaction that gets bigger until the die-off of carriers exceeds repopulation.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, and that made no sense at all. They knew what they faced, demons can't control people's minds, and these "temptations" were so crude that any even remotely rational person would've seen through it. I might've bought it had the demon been able to pose as a friend in a normal life scenario, but that scene in DA2 failed hard. If you want a convincing account, read The Last Flight.

 

It's crude because of the medium of you staring at a screen of a video game.

 

In the lore and setting itself, it's indicated that spirits have mental-interface powers in play even without possession. Cole's mindreading/mindwiping is one instance, but desire demon enthrallment is another: demons can sense your thoughts and feelings, and draw them out as well. Demonic interaction can trigger sensory hallucinations even before any demonic pact: Isabella can feel the ship, Merrill is filled with absolute conviction.

 

The player can't be interfaced with to any such degree.

[Dean_the_Young]

Here's another example of an ordinary (even courageous) mage being possessed:  First Enchanter Casimira

 

From the codex entry for Staff of Violation

 

Old friend,

First Enchanter Casimira was no blood mage! Hogwash! Your story of her investing dark arts into the staff is just that: a fable.

Casimira was, in fact, the first leader of Kirkwall's Circle of Magi. She was saddled with the great task of transforming a decrepit, crumbling prison into a proper home for mages transferred to her from all over Thedas. Some of those mages were apostates, men and women one step away from being rendered Tranquil, and it was her unfortunate task to keep order.

How many battles did she fight in those early days? How much blood was spilled on these grounds? Casimira had to be a hard woman, but she did it to keep the templars from declaring the Right of Annulment and killing us all.

And your other rumor that she was arrested by the first knight-commander? I am telling you it isn't so. I have studied the records, and the truth of the matter is that Casimira was taken by a demon and slain before she could endanger the tower. The templars admired her strength in holding the demon back long enough for them to act. It was a noble sacrifice, and Casmira's staff was kept by the first enchanters to commemorate this. It saddens me that people choose to dwell on its form rather than the lesson it signifies.

 

— A letter by First Enchanter Orsino, 9:26 Dragon

 

Hate to say it, but... consider the source.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

They're still rare, even in Rivain. If they're treated like natural disasters, try to remember that most people who live in the hurricane-heavy areas don't die of them. I don't really think that that approach is justified here, since if I could I'd try to minimize the number of hurricanes too, but I'm not arguing that this arguably foolish policy is absolutely going to kill everyone in Rivain or anything.

 

Oh, I agree. Just pointing out that the stats and perspective is slanted from the start.

 

It's like, oh, what would be a good real-world analogy... the 'privilege' argument? Isabella is speaking from a position of 'there aren't many abominations at my bar' privilege. It may not be wrong, but her perspective and her argument are influenced by it: it's hard for her to be hurt by an abomination for much the same reason that it's hard for someone in-land to be killed by a hurricane.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Oh, I agree. Just pointing out that the stats and perspective is slanted from the start.

 

It's like, oh, what would be a good real-world analogy... the 'privilege' argument? Isabella is speaking from a position of 'there aren't many abominations at my bar' privilege. It may not be wrong, but her perspective and her argument are influenced by it: it's hard for her to be hurt by an abomination for much the same reason that it's hard for someone in-land to be killed by a hurricane.

I will point out that she has lived in areas where abominations were common. She was born in Rivain, and I think she even moves back there after DA2 is over. Not to say I agree with her, but she's not falling into this trap of thinking.

[Boost32]

Its Isabela! With one L!

[MisterJB]

Ah there is that condescension classic to you people. You are just proving my point. Glad I was never pro Templar if it meant being lumped with you lunatics

 

-Berates people for being condescending.

 

-Is so very glad he is not grouped with those people who are lunatics.

 

C'mon, this one was on purpose. There is no way such a perfect set up was accidental.

 

 

[dragonflight288]

Ah there is that condescension classic to you people. You are just proving my point. Glad I was never pro Templar if it meant being lumped with you lunatics

This is the kind of tone that makes people take Mage supporters less seriously.

Personal generalizations, especially in regards to pixelated characters, is a rather rude approach.

I personally enjoy my debates with those like Dean the Young or MisterJB because it is based on rational thought and mutual respect, even though we disagree on principle on how mages should be handled on a societal level. The reasonable Templar and Mage supporters agree with each other on where the problems in the system are, but disagree on the best approach to solving them.

It's largely a conflict of interest in what should be required of mages in training and what an acceptable level of risk is in the larger community.

But overall what is really important is that we're all passionate Bioware fans. If we weren't, none of us would be here on the forums.

Let's do our best to avoid personal attacks, it reflects poorly on the person making the statement.

Also, personal attacks are a good way to get banned.

Just some friendly advice.

Catch you all next week. Vacation in Mexico awaits.

[TK514]

Enjoy your vacation!

[dragonflight288]

Thanks.

[Illegitimus]

I will point out that she has lived in areas where abominations were common. She was born in Rivain, and I think she even moves back there after DA2 is over. Not to say I agree with her, but she's not falling into this trap of thinking.

 

What makes you think that abominations are common in Rivain?  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What makes you think that abominations are common in Rivain?  

Sorry. Relatively common. (If you were wondering where I got that, Word of Gaider. Also common sense since they don't restrict their mages much and allow spirits to possess them.)

 

 

Catch you all next week. Vacation in Mexico awaits.

Enjoy.