I don't need defense because no one have weapon that can harm me here.
I already have explained why your argument for that mages can't be killed are invalid.
I'll be more than willing to repeat my refutations if Arshei repeats your points. I think she's actually trying to be productive.
I'll be more than willing to repeat my refutations if Arshei repeats your points. I think she's actually trying to be productive.
You don't need repeat it becuase i already pointed why they were invalid ,save for joining argument that pretty much i explained long time ago isn't problem.I don't need try to be productive , im productive.
Not until they actually do so. We don't need them committing suicide-by-assassin to scare other mages.
I'm willing to concede that the Circles might backslide. I don't want them to, but they might. The thing is that I'd prefer that to the mages completely shaking off the Chantry's previous restrictions and allowing mages who should be safely Tranquilized to live as though they were normal people, and would mildly prefer it to blood mages sneaking their fingers into authority figures. (And if I can't be sure that will happen, since the mages have an interest in there not being abominations running around all over hell, neither can you be sure the Circles will backslide. The Chantry has an interest in mages only feeling minimally oppressed.)
I'm concerned by the idea of mages choosing their own curriculum without Chantry oversight: not to pretend that this oversight doesn't come with its own problems, but without it they might make it fairly easy to learn things that I think should at least be strictly controlled. Though I'm willing to concede this fear has little enough to base it on that Trespasser might not support it and that subsequent works (which have the advantage of taking place more than two years after Leiliana does what she does) might prove I was just being paranoid.
That's interesting. But if the Libertarains gained enough support to kick off a revolution it would be hard to stop then, and I can't imagine templars and Chantry as a collective not wanting to take some kind of action sooner rather than later and make things worse like they did in the games and novels.
Personally, I don't see how reform isn't blown of the water. If the circles decide they need to research blood magic, for example, and the Chantry finds something objectionable about it, which they easily could considering they Chantry's stance on blood magic, again I think one of three things happens -- they don't get to do it, they can do only some of what they wanted or they're so limited on what they can do it doesn't yield much satisfaction, or they can do what they want but other pressures eventually get it shut down.
I think by your own admission the Chantry and templars serve in part to keep the Circle from doing things they consider inappropriate. When that comes up against the will of the circles something has to give and we have the same problems as before. I think the circles will be okay on their own so long as they take into account the opinions and safety of the communities their towers reside in. So long as they can work things out there and larger issues through the College of Enchanters, I think they just don't need the Chantry. The Inquisition can take up some of the role the Chantry used to play and Leliana can lend her support against countries that might try to take advantage of or abuse the new college.
But nice chat, and maybe Trespasser will wrap it up.
So everyone likes pointing out possible Mage hypocrisy yet never bothers pointing out a pro circle supporter saying he would never put his family in a circle yet supporting making everyone else put their families in the circle?
You are just too much fun. 'Can't ignore you no matter how I try!
Technically, a pro-Circle person saying that his mage-born family need not go to the Circle is not hypocritical. It only would be if: (1) they do not agree with the practice of some Circles letting mages live away from the Circle (like Vivienne's Circle... the one that Circle detractors like to pretend does not exist); (2) If they believe strictly in mandatory training at the Circle instead of mandatory training in a more broad sense.
That, by the way, is my position as well -- no problem with some mages living outside the Circle and getting training from someone qualified outside of the Circle.
'Not sure I would make that exception for Morrigan/Kieran, myself, but I would agree to disagree with JB on that.
Also, considering you all day you support killing those who don't agree with you, none of you can criticize hardened Leliana for doing the same things you are suggesting
Hah. Hardened Leliana's epilogue is the only one of hers I am okay with.
Not fully, though. If she is succeeded by a softer divine, the whole thing falls apart.
Can be useful and also can burn thedas to the ground , as far it goes damage they have caused through constant disasters outweighs their usefulness by large margin, so to put it simply they are more harm than help.
Not if Templars are doing their jobs right.
Not if Templars are doing their jobs right.
Which they sadly often don't ,anders escaped from circle 8 times , Jowan escaped circle as well ,same for Malcolm Hawke and pretty much a lot other mages.Then we have ridiculous situations that shouldn't even take place like that Uldred and his blood mages practiced blood magic within the walls of the circle or Orsino supporting blood mage serial killer ,that without mentioning Thrask and another templars that were helping blood mages and abomnations.Circle system is broken , mages have way too much freedom ,also some templars aren't prepared and are outright too soft to do their job.
Which they sadly often don't ,anders escaped from circle 8 times , Jowan escaped circle as well ,same for Malcolm Hawke and pretty much a lot other mages.Then we have ridiculous situations that shouldn't even take place like that Uldred and his blood mages practiced blood magic within the walls of the circle or Orsino supporting blood mage serial killer ,that without mentioning Thrask and another templars that were helping blood mages and abomnations.Circle system is broken , mages have way too much freedom ,also some templars aren't prepared and are outright too soft to do their job.
This is a first.
Any way when a system is broken you fix it you dont burn it all down.
This is a first.
Any way when a system is broken you fix it you dont burn it all down.
Hmm, first?
Not when system is inadequate ,in such case you replace it with system that will achieve your goals.
Hmm, first?
Not when system is inadequate ,in such case you replace it with system that will achieve your goals.
Sayign that templars were to soft on mages
Any way Viv as divine seems to be the perfect solution to me, Mages get more freedom but are still watched, and the templars have a firmer hand to guide them but still do what they need to do
Sayign that templars were to soft on mages
Any way Viv as divine seems to be the perfect solution to me, Mages get more freedom but are still watched, and the templars have a firmer hand to guide them but still do what they need to do
Not rly a lot of people will admit it about for an example Thrask.
Hardly that just means templars have even less control over mages and mages even more power to pull things like Orsino.
Not rly a lot of people will admit it about for an example Thrask.
Hardly that just means templars have even less control over mages and mages even more power to pull things like Orsino.
Considering Vivs thoughts on templars i don't think they'd have less control honestly.
Considering Vivs thoughts on templars i don't think they'd have less control honestly.
They have, fact mages have more freedom under viviene pretty much means less control for templars.
They have, fact mages have more freedom under viviene pretty much means less control for templars.
I don't believe freedom for mages and control for templars are exclusive.
I don't believe freedom for mages and control for templars are exclusive.
They are ,in order to control something you need take its freedom.
They are ,in order to control something you need take its freedom.
there are varying levels of freedom how ever.
we need nether total control or total freedome, balance is the key.
A mage like Vivianne of amell whose shows they a re not a risk should be allowed to live outside the circle, but still have a phylactery to track them, incase people int he sorunding village suddenly start disappearing.
there are varying levels of freedom how ever.
we need nether total control or total freedome, balance is the key.
A mage like Vivianne of amell whose shows they a re not a risk should be allowed to live outside the circle, but still have a phylactery to track them, incase people int he sorunding village suddenly start disappearing.
I know that, what doesn't change it that more you have one of them less you have another ,and lack of control was already problem in case of circles.
Every mage is dangerous ,Vivienne is no different ,phylactery allows you only find her not prevent her from inflicing destruction in the middle of the city.
I know that, what doesn't change it that more you have one of them less you have another ,and lack of control was already problem in case of circles.
Every mage is dangerous ,Vivienne is no different ,phylactery allows you only find her not prevent her from inflicing destruction in the middle of the city.
Viv is dangerous but shes also trust worthy.
Viv is dangerous but shes also trust worthy.
Don't try, TKS's position is killed/Tranquilled from birth/discovery, any lesser level of 'control' will not be enough for him.
Viv is dangerous but shes also trust worthy.
Being trustworthy is matter of opinion and doesn't mean person isn't a threat.
Don't try, TKS's position is killed/Tranquilled from birth/discovery, any lesser level of 'control' will not be enough for him.
Only toward threats like mages that need extreme level of control to ensure safety, and i wouldn't say killing them was about controlling mages rather than simply elimination of threat.
You are just too much fun. 'Can't ignore you no matter how I try!
Technically, a pro-Circle person saying that his mage-born family need not go to the Circle is not hypocritical. It only would be if: (1) they do not agree with the practice of some Circles letting mages live away from the Circle (like Vivienne's Circle... the one that Circle detractors like to pretend does not exist); (2) If they believe strictly in mandatory training at the Circle instead of mandatory training in a more broad sense.
That, by the way, is my position as well -- no problem with some mages living outside the Circle and getting training from someone qualified outside of the Circle.
'Not sure I would make that exception for Morrigan/Kieran, myself, but I would agree to disagree with JB on that.
It's still pretty hypocritical isn't it? Because Morrigan and Kieran never had to go to a circle and get permission to leave, a process that probably has its own complications, like he advocates basically every other mage do. IIRC non-circle mage communities in cities and towns, so like a mage school house outside a circle in a village of mostly non-mages, is out of the question for him as a security risk, so mages couldn't do the Morrigan/Kieran route on a large scale. It seems Morrigan and Kieran stay completely exempt from the system. I see you say you disagree about the Morrigan/Kieran exception anyway, but still.
It's still pretty hypocritical isn't it?
I do not speak for Mr.JB, but no, not really. It simply depends on what reasons one supports the system.
It is hypocritical if you support the Circle attendance itself as mandatory and to solely confine its residents.
It is NOT hypocritical if you support the Circle merely from the standpoint that there needs to be some source of mandatory training and are okay with the institution granting its residents permission to leave. Someone with that stance can support the Circle since it checks both boxes. They could also support the Bright Hand, and in so doing would not contradict their support of the Circle.
Get what I'm saying?
I see you say you disagree about the Morrigan/Kieran exception anyway, but still.
I am not opposed to it, just unsure, and that regards the issue of Morrigan in particular.
A mage child living outside the Circle but receiving qualified training (Kieran), I am OK with; I am in favor of home-schooling mage children if the trainer is qualified, like say a Malcolm Hawke (who owes his ability to... the Circle).
@ProfessorX; Hmm, nah, it is hypocritical because Morrigan and Kieran did not and would not have to be processed in a system in a way he wants all other mages processed, so Circle or Bright Hand or anything else, they don't have to go through it. Its at least nepotism. If he wouldn't make them do it, why should anyone else? Why couldn't mages then just find their own way? Do you see the weak spot there? But whatever, I was really just using your post to bring up a general point about that in the thread. It's not about picking apart your post.
The Circle's processing procedure was not part of that equation, just the mere fact that they do let mages out.
You do not need to support or agree with every Circle procedure to the letter of the law to support the system in a broad sense, just to have general viewpoints that align with its general practices.
As to why other mages are not held to the same standard... because Morrigan/Kieran have differentiated themselves from the group's rank-and-file.
As to why other mages are not held to the same standard... because Morrigan/Kieran have differentiated themselves from the group's rank-and-file.
Differentiated in a way that would engender trust and good faith with the common folk that may be in proximity?
Differentiated in a way that would engender trust and good faith with the common folk that may be in proximity?
Not as far as I'm concerned.
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