1551 réponses à ce sujet

[GranfalloonMembr]

Goddamn it, right after I said I shouldn't try to argue with people I end up not being able to help myself...

 

Not a bad idea

 

But all it takes is one mistake, and an entire town can die.  A mage is never truly "safe" from possession.

 

....

 

You know what? How about we just kill all the mages then, if "better safe than sorry" is the approach we should take?

 

Or maybe just make them all Tranquil. Can't be too careful, right?

 

You want to know what a good way to prevent towns getting destroyed that doesn't infringe on the freedom of mages who've done nothing wrong? Station people who are capable of fighting mages in those towns. They could be templars, other mages, just badass fighters, whoever. But a lone out-of-control mage ain't that hard to neutralize or kill. They aren't invulnerable and they aren't omnipotent.

[Deztyn]

There were Templars in Redcliffe.

When Meredith 's sister went abomination she still managed to kill 70 people with templars. there.

Plenty of templars in Kinloch Hold too.

[Drasanil]

Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither!   GOD, do I have to spell out everything for you stupid Templars?  Freaking idiots....  - Benjamin Franklin

 

Pretty sure the old whoremonger would have reconsidered his position had a random assortment of his neighbours possessed the ability shoot genuine fireballs out of their arses or turned into town destroying monstrosities when things went pear shaped. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I caught a glimpse of one that actually tried to justify the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII because they were potential threats just like the mages

I justify nothing, I have no need for justification nor support of that supposed position.

The point of that circular little conversation was only intended to expell what came which is people in and of themselves are dangerous, adding magic to that just adds to the issue.

So having them kept away from people to kill is only a positive, its really that simple, magic adds additional risk and instability which is simply a furtherance of the potential danger.

Nothing more nothing less.

[GranfalloonMembr]

What's funny is that the argument that mages shouldn't want to leave the circle due to having nicer living conditions is the exact same argument that Dorian uses to support slavery. Why be free and miserable when you can be comfortable and safe in slavery/imprisonment?

 

P.S. If you really want to know why Warder is such a lunatic, I can PM you.

 

Okay, go ahead.

 

As far as Dorian's concerned: while I think he's wrong to be pro-slavery, him saying "Well, at least slaves don't starve to death in poverty, which is what happens here in Ferelden," did give me pause. And when I said that at least those poor people are free, I think he said something like "Do you think it matters to them if they're miserable all the time and can't do anything to change it?" He honestly had me wondering which was the lesser evil. I mean, we've previously seen poor elves who were desperate enough to escape poverty that they converted to the Qun, because that harsh system where they'd have no personal freedoms to speak of was actually preferable to their day to day life in the alienage.

 

Also, Dorian seems to regret a lot of what his country has done and does do, judging from his dialogues with you and his banter with Solas. There's a point when Solas says something like "If you really want to make up for that stuff, then free all the slaves in Tevinter." Dorian answers that he doesn't think he can, and it sounded to me like he meant "I would like to, but I'm not capable of it because I'm just one man and one without very much political power, relatively speaking." He said it in a guilty-sounding tone, as opposed to a "don't be ridiculous" tone.

[Master Warder Z_]

Okay, go ahead.

I'd advise this: if you want to know something ask the person in question.

[GranfalloonMembr]

I'd advise this: if you want to know something ask the person in question.

I barely care, really.

[Master Warder Z_]

I barely care, really.

Your choice: Be a lamb and tell me if he mentions relatives.

Dead men deserve more then to be mocked on a forum.

[GranfalloonMembr]

Your choice: Be a lamb and tell me if he mentions relatives.

Dead men deserve more then to be mocked on a forum.

Right, if you have a sad story then the best case scenario is that I'll view you the same way I do Fenris.

 

Which is: "Well, that sucks. I feel sorry for that guy. He's still really wrong, though."

[Master Warder Z_]

I simply request you to tell me if he mentions them, nothing more.

[The Baconer]

In terms of possession, I imagine he was no as dangerous as a regular mage due to already sharing his body with another soul.

In terms of mages maliciously harming others, he was probably more dangerous than any other mage.

 

Of course, now that the soul has been removed, he is probably no different than any other ten year old mage. Maybe more prone to possession due to demons wanting to see if there is still any of the god's power left.

 

So I'm definitely not seeing a justification to not put him in the Circle.

 

 

Does that mean I would actually, if it was a choice, have the Warden step aside and allow Morrigan and Kieran to be taken to the Circle? Well...no.

 

And the man didst stand before The Builder, and didst the Builder ask, 'Wilt thou undergo trial and hazard, for Me?' And didst the man say, 'No, I do not wish pain.' And thus did The Builder slay the man, that he wisht not the pain of a true life.

[Illegitimus]

Goddamn it, right after I said I shouldn't try to argue with people I end up not being able to help myself...

 

 

....

 

You know what? How about we just kill all the mages then, if "better safe than sorry" is the approach we should take?

 

Or maybe just make them all Tranquil. Can't be too careful, right?

 

 

Not an option.  There are problems mages are needed for.  

[Illyria]

Other mages can.  If they get permission from the First Enchanter.  SOme Circles are more strict about that than others.  

 

 

Most X-Men are not in danger of being possessed by the Phoenix Force and start laying waste to the countryside, though.

 

And as I've pointed out several times now: a nice prison is still a prison.

 

Thanks. After arguing with the other people, that's good to hear.

 

I don't know whether the issues raised in this series remind me of stuff I care passionately about in real life, or whether the stories have been written in such a way that I care passionately about these people who don't even exist. All I know is that I feel really strongly about this stuff.

 

I'm somebody who's been a fan of X-Men stories for 3/4 of his life approximately--stories which were intended as aesops about racism and other forms of prejudice being wrong. Perhaps unintentionally, in these stories the people who were hated and feared by ordinary humans didn't just look different, but they actually were more powerful, and the anti-mutant characters would say so in their arguments.

 

"Can we really afford to give people this powerful the benefit of the doubt?"

 

The answer in all of those stories was that you should give them the benefit the doubt. Collective punishment of an entire group because of the actions of a tiny fraction of that group is wrong. I can't think of a way to explain why that is to the people who disagree. I feel like I shouldn't have to explain it to the people who disagree. It should be obvious.

 

Some guy said I was "fleeing" earlier. Well, I was glancing at the latest posts in this thread and I think I caught a glimpse of one that actually tried to justify the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII because they were potential threats just like the mages, and that made me think "What is the bloody point of trying to debate people like that? Nothing I say will convince them to reconsider their point of view. It's just an exercise in futility and frustration." That's the kind of thing where you're either cool with punishing people for something they can't change or you aren't. You either agree with it or you don't.

 

You may have seen this xkcd comic before. I have been that guy way more often than I should have. Sometimes it's best to just let the people who are wrong be wrong.

 

Doing cruel things to innocent people in the name of keeping other innocent people safe is wrong. That is why people are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty in the American justice system, and are supposed to go free if they are not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. (Admittedly it doesn't always work out that way, with people getting wrongfully convicted or convicted on circumstantial evidence, but that's how it's supposed to work.) Even the chance of sending an innocent person to prison isn't worth it, so you let them go, even if they might be a criminal.

 

I realize that maybe I should have directed these points to the people who worship at the altar of Vivienne, but I can't deal with those people right now. If you're innocent and no threat to anybody, you shouldn't be made to suffer. I have no patience for people who say that innocent people who are no threat to anybody should endure imprisonment because of a possibility that they will become a threat one day. I have no patience for people who call the Circles luxurious accomodations when even Vivienne says that conditions varied from Circle to Circle. And, like you say, a gilded cage is still a cage.

 

You're welcome.  I hope you enjoy the rest of DAI (and don't get too spoiled on the rest of the game).

[MisterJB]

Goddamn it, right after I said I shouldn't try to argue with people I end up not being able to help myself...

Granfalloon, if you don't want to engage in never ending debates where both sides are already commited to their beliefs, that is your prerrogative. God knows I have walked away from my fair share.
But do stop acting as if you are some sort of higher moral authority who must debase himself to adress the vile and ignorant peasantry.

"Jarvas, fetch me my smelling salts."

No one is asking you to be here.

[Dean_the_Young]

I justify nothing, I have no need for justification nor support of that supposed position.

The point of that circular little conversation was only intended to expell what came which is people in and of themselves are dangerous, adding magic to that just adds to the issue.

So having them kept away from people to kill is only a positive, its really that simple, magic adds additional risk and instability which is simply a furtherance of the potential danger.

Nothing more nothing less.

 

You know what- I was going to let you go easy, thinking you'd given up that line of argument, but you came back to it.

 

 

 

You made an equivalence to a position you broadly support. You raised it as a supporting agreement for an argument you sought to reinforce. You defended it when challenged. You appealed to authority and that authority attempted to justified it. And the entire premise of the practice cited- of incarceration for inherent danger of suspect mundanity- was not only stupid, both ineffective and arbitrary in planning, massively corrupt in practice, bigoted in its conception, and outright wrong on its own grounds of justification by 'necessity.'

 

Yes, you justified it by using it as a supporting argument for a position you support- and if you don't realize that because you don't understand your own argument and how it (doesn't) apply to thedas, then that's all the more reason to take it down.

 

Someone remind me to come back to this this weekend if I forget. This promises to be a rare treat- Dean taking on a pro-Templar argument.

[Master Warder Z_]

You know what- I was going to let you go easy, thinking you'd given up that line of argument, but you came back to it.

 

You can do what you want, I am honestly indifferent.

 

And as for "letting" me go or anything ridiculous like that? I was kind enough to actually not mock you for honestly taking it that seriously, because good God man, should I honestly care what text on a forum board says? How important should that be to me?

 

Beyond that? Again it comes back me being indifferent enough to basically say do whatever.

[dragonflight288]

There were Templars in Redcliffe.

When Meredith 's sister went abomination she still managed to kill 70 people with templars. there.

Plenty of templars in Kinloch Hold too.

 

There was a powerful noble and a wife who was determined to keep her son out of Chantry's hands because she feared what handing him to the Circle meant, so the templars were never used, the right specialists never called in before it escalated, and an incompetent brought in by Loghain (and the timing there is really, really off) meant to tutor Connor, well that was Isolde was told, but actually was there to poison Eamon, and also Isolde sending pretty much all the knights away before the situation escalated. Thus, the templars were never called in because Isolde didn't want them to be.

 

Meredith's family never even sought a tutor but felt it was better to keep their child safe because they feared what the Circle would do to her, thus she never got training and was easy prey to the demons. 

 

And the Templars in Kinloch Hold held the upper hand until Justinia, Leliana and others broke the mages out, and it was the templars who dealt the first blow while the mages were not breaking any Chantry decree or laws. 

 

The issue in all these cases has been that fear of the Chantry controlled Circles, and the Templars, keep mages from getting trained, or the templars/Lambert overextending what they are supposed to do and making an already tense situation worse. 

 

But, the scenario people are suggesting isn't that families keep their children away from the Circle or any form of training so they can live in town, it's that once the mage in question has been trained and can control their powers safely that they can live in the outside world, which is what, pretty much every culture outside the Chantry controlled countries and the Qunari has in place with no serious problems as a result. 

[dragonflight288]

Granfalloon, if you don't want to engage in never ending debates where both sides are already commited to their beliefs, that is your prerrogative. God knows I have walked away from my fair share.
But do stop acting as if you are some sort of higher moral authority who must debase himself to adress the vile and ignorant peasantry.

"Jarvas, fetch me my smelling salts."

No one is asking you to be here.

 

MisterJB, I enjoy debating with you, but this was kind of uncalled for. 

 

Alienating new members of the family of the forum is not appropriate. 

 

Granfalloon, I hope you take your time and enjoy Inquisition, and when you feel like you have a strong enough understanding of the lore on how things are going in Thedas, I'd love to hear your opinion, and possibly have a good-natured debate with you as I'm sure there'll be things we disagree with.

 

Like, I support some people in regards to how mages should be treated, but we both disagree on what is best for the elves of Thedas. And the Qunari debates or even the Loghain debates are also fascinating. 

[dragonflight288]

You know what- I was going to let you go easy, thinking you'd given up that line of argument, but you came back to it.

 

 

 

You made an equivalence to a position you broadly support. You raised it as a supporting agreement for an argument you sought to reinforce. You defended it when challenged. You appealed to authority and that authority attempted to justified it. And the entire premise of the practice cited- of incarceration for inherent danger of suspect mundanity- was not only stupid, both ineffective and arbitrary in planning, massively corrupt in practice, bigoted in its conception, and outright wrong on its own grounds of justification by 'necessity.'

 

Yes, you justified it by using it as a supporting argument for a position you support- and if you don't realize that because you don't understand your own argument and how it (doesn't) apply to thedas, then that's all the more reason to take it down.

 

Someone remind me to come back to this this weekend if I forget. This promises to be a rare treat- Dean taking on a pro-Templar argument.

 

That is a rare treat Dean. I for one would be immensely interested to see how it goes. 

[Master Warder Z_]

MisterJB, I enjoy debating with you, but this was kind of uncalled for. 

 

I'd disagree, I mean in all honesty all he did was state his perspective on the matter. And I can't say I fault him for that, you make a conscious choice to take part in a forum discussion, you make the choice to acknowledge what others say here and how it effects you, so i'd argue not only was it called for it, it should be expected.

 

After all, if arguments, stances and alike can be and often argue deliberately misconstrued here, what's the point of mincing words when they likely will not even be acknowledged anyway.

[Master Warder Z_]

That is a rare treat Dean. I for one would be immensely interested to see how it goes. 

 

I have a guess.

 

Dean writes probably four to eight paragraphs, I go 'that's nice' and that's the end of it.

 

After all what you call a "rare" treat, requires me to actually take part for it to be anymore then Dean ranting with the wind.

[Iakus]

Goddamn it, right after I said I shouldn't try to argue with people I end up not being able to help myself...

 

 

....

 

You know what? How about we just kill all the mages then, if "better safe than sorry" is the approach we should take?

 

Or maybe just make them all Tranquil. Can't be too careful, right?

 

No, because mages are still people, and deserving of respect and dignity.  They are just Blessed With Suck

 

Although if mages can undergo the sundering and restoration Seekers do, that could solve a lot of problems.

 

 

You want to know what a good way to prevent towns getting destroyed that doesn't infringe on the freedom of mages who've done nothing wrong? Station people who are capable of fighting mages in those towns. They could be templars, other mages, just badass fighters, whoever. But a lone out-of-control mage ain't that hard to neutralize or kill. They aren't invulnerable and they aren't omnipotent.

That's what the Circles are for.  With the added bonus of having less potential collateral damage around.

 

A lone out of control child mage laid waste to Redcliffe.  

 

And FYI, I'm not certain that the Circle system is in fact the answer.  Only that there is a compelling argument to be made that some sort of magical policing is needed due to the potential damage magic can, and in the past has caused.

[Deztyn]

There was a powerful noble and a wife who was determined to keep her son out of Chantry's hands because she feared what handing him to the Circle meant, so the templars were never used, the right specialists never called in before it escalated, and an incompetent brought in by Loghain (and the timing there is really, really off) meant to tutor Connor, well that was Isolde was told, but actually was there to poison Eamon, and also Isolde sending pretty much all the knights away before the situation escalated. Thus, the templars were never called in because Isolde didn't want them to be.

Details are unimportant. It's a clear case where having local templars and soldiers on hand are not enough to deal with an abomination.

Meredith's family never even sought a tutor but felt it was better to keep their child safe because they feared what the Circle would do to her, thus she never got training and was easy prey to the demons.

Meredith's sister was too emotional and weak-willed. They didn't want to send her away because they believed that she was too fragile to leave home. It's likely they would have hidden her even if the Circles were temporary. That's irrelevant to the point though. When she turned abomination it was with templars close by to mitigate the damage and she still took out 70 people including her own family.

And the Templars in Kinloch Hold held the upper hand until Justinia, Leliana and others broke the mages out, and it was the templars who dealt the first blow while the mages were not breaking any Chantry decree or laws.

Kinloch Hold is the location of the Ferelden Circle. I was referring to the fact that it's easily overrun by abominations despite being filled with templars.

The issue in all these cases has been that fear of the Chantry controlled Circles, and the Templars, keep mages from getting trained, or the templars/Lambert overextending what they are supposed to do and making an already tense situation worse.

But, the scenario people are suggesting isn't that families keep their children away from the Circle or any form of training so they can live in town, it's that once the mage in question has been trained and can control their powers safely that they can live in the outside world, which is what, pretty much every culture outside the Chantry controlled countries and the Qunari has in place with no serious problems as a result.

The poster was suggesting that mages should stay home and having templars posted in town should be enough. I was pointing out that it isn't that simple. (And there are templars in every Chantry anyway. )

Because we can slaughter abominations with ease due to game mechanics, people forget how utterly devastating they are in the story world.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You want to know what a good way to prevent towns getting destroyed that doesn't infringe on the freedom of mages who've done nothing wrong? Station people who are capable of fighting mages in those towns. They could be templars, other mages, just badass fighters, whoever. But a lone out-of-control mage ain't that hard to neutralize or kill. They aren't invulnerable and they aren't omnipotent.

Abominations apparently regularly take down squads of templars. Stationing people who can handle a mage in towns is a good idea. (If it's not already being done, which it probably is.) Allowing mages who haven't shown that they're at minimal risk of turning to wander in those towns and potentially make them more frequently necessary is not. I'm not arguing that Harrowed mages shouldn't be let off the leash a bit, but I'm arguing that some leashing is necessary. (Though it might be best if that leashing was mildly less literal than the leashing the qunari practice.)

[Dean_the_Young]

You can do what you want, I am honestly indifferent.

 

And as for "letting" me go or anything ridiculous like that? I was kind enough to actually not mock you for honestly taking it that seriously, because good God man, should I honestly care what text on a forum board says? How important should that be to me?

 

Beyond that? Again it comes back me being indifferent enough to basically say do whatever.

 

That would be a tad more convincing had you not spent much of the last year regularly 'liking' my posts on the subject and parroting my arguments.

 

Whether you care, or not, is up to you. But at the least, it should be educational.