1551 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

I hope one day we get a Mage/Templar argument without anyone quoting Benjamin Franklin in a manner that implies the issues that mages face in DA, ex being concerned with religious authority, the inherent differences of mages and mundanes, and so on, are analogous to modern day (or early modern) issues of liberty concerning an overbearing state.

[Master Warder Z_]

That would be a tad more convincing

Who said it was to convince you of jack? I said it to state my position, your little diatribe doesn't interest me.

It's really just that simple: Do as you like but don't expect much of a reaction.

It's difficult to legitimately get worked up over text on a screen.

[Master Warder Z_]

I hope one day we get a Mage/Templar argument without anyone quoting Benjamin Franklin in a manner that implies the issues that mages face in DA, ex being concerned with religious authority, the inherent differences of mages and mundanes, and so on, are analogous to modern day (or early modern) issues of liberty concerning an overbearing state.

I wouldn't hold my breath

[prosthetic soul]

I hope one day we get a Mage/Templar argument without anyone quoting Benjamin Franklin in a manner that implies the issues that mages face in DA, ex being concerned with religious authority, the inherent differences of mages and mundanes, and so on, are analogous to modern day (or early modern) issues of liberty concerning an overbearing state.

It is analogous though.  That's exactly what the Templar order is.  An overbearing state. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It is analogous though.  That's exactly what the Templar order is.  An overbearing state. 

Except that the Templars have better arguments for what they do than the arguably overbearing state that Benjamin Franklin had to deal with did. The British had to deal with a resentful self-rule group that wanted to police themselves, as did the Templars. That's about where the similarities end. The main difference is that the Templars were (at least in part) keeping tabs on them to make sure that they didn't go abomination in a civilian location. Which given the dangers that an abomination represents to anyone who doesn't have PC stamped on their forehead is a legitimate thing to be afraid of. It really is a dangerous oversimplification of the issue to try to represent this as a one-to-one comparison for anything in our world.

 

The closest analogy you could draw between the Circles and anything in this world would be forcible quarantine in order to prevent those with dangerous and contagious diseases from hurting others. Which does happen, by the way; Gaider pointed out that if mages as his work envisions them existed in real life, people would want them kept apart from society and wouldn't be wrong to want this, and he was right. And even that isn't a perfect comparison, since it's hard for a sick person to get their contagious disease under good enough control as to be safe to have out in the general population for months or years at a time.

[dragonflight288]

It is analogous though.  That's exactly what the Templar order is.  An overbearing state. 

 

And one where the majority felt it preferable to abandon their own religion in droves to commit to a war rather than allow the Divine's decision to let the mages be stand. 

 

Some didn't and stayed.

 

Others were so extreme that even before the Inquisitor goes to the templars or the mages to seal the Breach and the extremes are fighting each other in the Hinterlands, they were ignoring the orders of their own superiors to kill all mages, and any peasant who may have supported mages, or they thought may have even sympathized with the mages. 

 

But the analogy doesn't really work in Dragon Age when the mages truly are, when untrained, a very real danger to both themselves and everyone around them simply by the nature of how magic works in the game. 

 

I don't like Vivienne on a personal level, but she says it right. "Magic is dangerous, just as a fire is dangerous."

 

Now, that does not mean I agree with the Circle system as it has been run before Inquisition came out. It simply means I recognize the danger magic can pose, especially to the fearful and the untrained. 

[Steelcan]

It is analogous though.  That's exactly what the Templar order is.  An overbearing state.

no they are not analogous besides through the broadest possible strokes.

Mages have not raised issues of taxation (as they do not pay them) political representation in their home country (as they have none, and do have their own form of representation).

You could argue that they are forced to house troops against their will, but that only goes so far since the mages are not the owners of private land the template are on.

Nor are they in any way citizens who are entitled to certain inalienable rights as the Chantry does not set forth any, and to my knowledge there aren't any enlightenment thinkers in Thedas

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 The best part about the Ben Franklin thing is that it's a misquote.

[Magdalena11]

And one where the majority felt it preferable to abandon their own religion in droves to commit to a war rather than allow the Divine's decision to let the mages be stand. 

 

Some didn't and stayed.

 

Others were so extreme that even before the Inquisitor goes to the templars or the mages to seal the Breach and the extremes are fighting each other in the Hinterlands, they were ignoring the orders of their own superiors to kill all mages, and any peasant who may have supported mages, or they thought may have even sympathized with the mages. 

 

But the analogy doesn't really work in Dragon Age when the mages truly are, when untrained, a very real danger to both themselves and everyone around them simply by the nature of how magic works in the game. 

 

I don't like Vivienne on a personal level, but she says it right. "Magic is dangerous, just as a fire is dangerous."

 

Now, that does not mean I agree with the Circle system as it has been run before Inquisition came out. It simply means I recognize the danger magic can pose, especially to the fearful and the untrained. 

 

I partially agree with you.

 

Mages are dangerous if untrained, but the training doesn't have to come from a circle.  The Dalish are apprenticed to a keeper, and the Qunari use physical restraint if self-control isn't trusted.  In a pinch, another form of education sometimes has to do.  Once in a while, a mage might be able to be their own teacher and learn to control it on their own.  The Chargers' Dalish is an example.  She's an archer with a very rare, elven bow.  Master Varathorn never stocked staffs, but they were visible against the aravel.  Who were they for?

 

The only mages we've met have been the ones who admitted it, either by saying they were or by using magic in front of someone.  The smart ones don't get caught.

[Andreas Amell]

She's speaking from her own experience, obviously some Circles are more strict. But generally yeah, if you're a well behaved Mage you have more freedoms. Same situation as Wynne, really.

It's really ironic how much Wynne's view are similar to Vivienne's. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 The best part about the Ben Franklin thing is that it's a misquote.

It wouldn't be much less questionable an argument if it wasn't. But yes, the original quote is a lot more qualified than most people who use it on this forum seem to think.

[Illegitimus]

So I don't recall what she said exactly but Vivienne basically said something like "no one is forced to live in a tower". A mage could choose to live elsewhere as long as they get permission, I guess? Also she obviously doesn't live in a tower.

So is what she says accurate or just her own experience? I know she also said that every circle tower isn't the same. So is she just sugarcoating the truth to justify her opinions on circle towers?

 

 

Well I just spent a while wading through Viviennes dialog on the wiki and youtube.  Couldn't find her saying anything like that.  And obviously some people are forced to live in a tower and I'm sure she knows that.  Personally I doubt that Circle magicians below the rank of senior enchanter have much of a shot at a long-term unsupervised gig.  And most of them don't especially want to leave that safe and comfortable sinecure.    

[Kakistos_]

How is referencing recent events a low blow if it's accurate? Trauma doesn't negate truth.
 

 

So what you're saying is those mages couldn't be trusted to live a lifetime of not turning into abominations or trying to conquer all of Thedas or whatever? Only some decades, at best?

 

That's, ahem, a very compelling argument for not leaving them free and unrestricted all their lives, considering that after a few good decades they nearly sacked southern Thedas.

The Truth is that Free Mages have existed in Thedas long before the Circles and Templars and continue to exist in the face of the Circle system's utter failure. The Chasined have existed with Free Mages since before the Chantry. The Dalish have existed with Free Mages since before the Chantry. One of them lead the Seekers. The Rivani have existed with Free Mages since before the Chantry.

 

The Grey Wardens have existed with Free Mages since before the Chantry. Without them the creation and continued existence of Wardens would not have been possible. The Avvar have existed with Free Mages since before the Chantry. Their communication with Spirits on behalf of their people keep the members of their society, Mage or otherwise, safe from Demons.

 

All of these societies have existed for a thousand years and some even longer with Mages unrestricted as equal members, spiritual guides and assets to their respective peoples. They do not rule in most cases and when they do it is not by force. The Truth is that Free Mages work and make their communities stronger While in contrast the Chantry's method pushed Mages right into Tevinter and the claws of one of the most famous Blood Mages in history. This is what they were created to stop, no?

 

Additionally, The Free Mages of Thedas were independent of the Circle for a year or more and did not devolve into a force of Abominations. It was the Templars who instigated the hostilities that resulted in the aforementioned sacking, ignoring of course, all the damage inflicted by Celene and Gaspard's notably non Mage forces.

[Boost32]

And it didn't work in the end, those societies with free mages have either been destroyed or almost wiped out. They have had their own problems that came with free mages, from the Dalish to the Avvars, they werent in any way some kind of paradise.

The mages werent hostile too? They aren't innocent victims on the conflict.

And should I remember the damage that is caused by mages can last centuries or almost wipe out the world (like the Breach or the Blight).

[Kakistos_]

And it didn't work in the end, those societies with free mages have either been destroyed or almost wiped out. They have had their own problems that came with free mages, from the Dalish to the Avvars, they werent in any way some kind of paradise.

The mages werent hostile too? They aren't innocent victims on the conflict.

And should I remember the damage that is caused by mages can last centuries or almost wipe out the world (like the Breach or the Blight).

Um...They're really not. To suggest otherwise is willful ignorance. ALL of those societies I mentioned are still functioning TODAY(in Thedas) with Free Mages. All of them, like the rest of Thedas, have their problems but nothing stemming directly from the Mages. If that were true, which it is not, then those societies which have been around for thousands of years would have stopped elevating Mages. And as I stated, their Mages are an asset to their societies. The Avvar and Grey Wardens prove this and the codex/lore suggest the same for the others. I do not claim the Mages are "innocent" but the Templars marched on THEM and ATTACKED. That is a fact.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Except that the Templars have better arguments for what they do than the arguably overbearing state that Benjamin Franklin had to deal with did. The British had to deal with a resentful self-rule group that wanted to police themselves, as did the Templars. That's about where the similarities end. The main difference is that the Templars were (at least in part) keeping tabs on them to make sure that they didn't go abomination in a civilian location. Which given the dangers that an abomination represents to anyone who doesn't have PC stamped on their forehead is a legitimate thing to be afraid of. It really is a dangerous oversimplification of the issue to try to represent this as a one-to-one comparison for anything in our world.

 

The closest analogy you could draw between the Circles and anything in this world would be forcible quarantine in order to prevent those with dangerous and contagious diseases from hurting others. Which does happen, by the way; Gaider pointed out that if mages as his work envisions them existed in real life, people would want them kept apart from society and wouldn't be wrong to want this, and he was right. And even that isn't a perfect comparison, since it's hard for a sick person to get their contagious disease under good enough control as to be safe to have out in the general population for months or years at a time.

 

I wouldn't call them as diseased. To me, mages are more like the Mutants from X-Men. They have something genetic in them that gives them special powers.

 

Even so, the good mutants in X Men are the ones lead by and supervised by someone, Professor X and his X Men. The free mutants usually cause problems or are aligned with Magneto's Brotherhood.

 

The reality is that mages, or should I say sorcerers (because that is what mages are) need some form of supervision. Be it from other mages or a state or an institution. One does not let fire burn freely. A fire works best when it is burning in a controlled environment, not a free one.

 

The question one should actually ask is this: "Do we trust the Chantry to serve as a guardian and supervisor of mages or do we not ?"

 

Personally, that is why I conscript the Rebel Mages and elect either Leliana or Cassandra as Divine. The Mages still have a guardian and a supervising body, it just so happens that this time it is Inquisition that is supervising them, no the Chantry.

[GranfalloonMembr]

 

Granfalloon, I hope you take your time and enjoy Inquisition, and when you feel like you have a strong enough understanding of the lore on how things are going in Thedas, I'd love to hear your opinion, and possibly have a good-natured debate with you as I'm sure there'll be things we disagree with.

 

Thanks; based on this I look forward to it too.

 

 

No, because mages are still people, and deserving of respect and dignity.  They are just Blessed With Suck

 

Although if mages can undergo the sundering and restoration Seekers do, that could solve a lot of problems.

 

That's what the Circles are for.  With the added bonus of having less potential collateral damage around.

 

A lone out of control child mage laid waste to Redcliffe.  

 

And FYI, I'm not certain that the Circle system is in fact the answer.  Only that there is a compelling argument to be made that some sort of magical policing is needed due to the potential damage magic can, and in the past has caused.

 

Those are actually good points, and it looks like I misjudged you as being totally unsympathetic to mages, so I'm sorry for that.

 

The possessed Connor did do that, but there are also abominations that are much less powerful. Now I'm curious what the norm is, whether Connor was an unusually powerful one or if there are lots of cases like his.

 

I'm also curious about Tevinter. There's a lot wrong with the Imperium--slavery topping the list--but it sounds pretty orderly, if nothing else. The templars there have been pretty well de-fanged, and if mages needed to be under the kind of tight templar control they used in Ferelden and Orlais to prevent them from becoming abominations, then I have to assume that without templars, Tevinter would be practically overrun with abominations all the time. But it isn't. I haven't read all about the Imperium in the codex like I said, but if possession were a frequent problem then I have to believe Dorian would have mentioned it in our initial conversations.

[Boost32]

Um...They're really not. To suggest otherwise is willful ignorance. ALL of those societies I mentioned are still functioning TODAY(in Thedas) with Free Mages. All of them, like the rest of Thedas, have their problems but nothing stemming directly from the Mages. If that were true, which it is not, then those societies which have been around for thousands of years would have stopped elevating Mages. And as I stated, their Mages are an asset to their societies. The Avvar and Grey Wardens prove this and the codex/lore suggest the same for the others. I do not claim the Mages are "innocent" but the Templars marched on THEM and ATTACKED. That is a fact.

The Dales was wipped so their society doesn't exist anymore. The Dalish, Avvars, Chansid have very low numbers and we saw mages from the first 2 groups yo f*ck up and cause a lot of destruction, there are a lot of problems that comes from their mage (werewolf curse and possesed dragon comes yo mind).
Get e Wardens have almost destroyed the Thedas because of their mages.
And? They werent innocents, they were criminals breaking the law, they should have surrendered.

[GranfalloonMembr]

 

The reality is that mages, or should I say sorcerers (because that is what mages are) need some form of supervision. Be it from other mages or a state or an institution. One does not let fire burn freely. A fire works best when it is burning in a controlled environment, not a free one.

 

On that I agree: somebody should be around who is equipped to stop abominations. They don't necessarily have to run the mages' lives, though; just hang around and keep an eye on them.

 

That's why I liked Cullen's idea of having mages do a term of military service, because I think mages would respond better to being watched over by their brothers- and sisters-in-arms than to being watched over by people they're expected to treat as superiors. It would also allow them to travel, which is a luxury they didn't always enjoy in the Circles.

 

I allied with the mages. I've read up on the different Divines and I'm gonna go with Leliana when I make my decision, which will hopefully not hurt my romance with Cassandra much. It's really a tough call, since conversations with both of them suggest they would be less controlling of mages than Vivienne would be. (Even when it says Vivienne gives Circle mages more freedoms as Divine, it also says that she ensures she alone has all of the true power, which I don't find comforting.) But Leliana will get rid of the Circles entirely, and that sounds good to me.

 

Oh yes, allying with the mages resulted in Vivienne stealing my furniture (why does the game not allow me to take it back? The Inquisitor shouldn't have to take crap like that in his own fortress) and telling me that I had risked everybody's lives by bringing all those mages near the Breach where they could become possessed.

 

For some reason, I wasn't able to respond to that by saying "Oh, you got me Viv, I apologize ever so humbly for all of the carnage and death that resulted after all of the unsupervised mages turned into abominations and burned Haven to the ground and--WAIT A MINUTE, THAT NEVER HAPPENED! Everything went exactly according to plan, the Breach was closed with no casualties, and we had a big party afterwards! The party unfortunately got crashed by red templars, but that had nothing to do with my decision to show a little trust in those mages. I was right, you were wrong, **** off. Also, you don't fit the Inquisition. Leave. Now."

[MisterJB]

Transplanting methods used by minuscule communities at local level and applying them to nations numbering in the millions with multiple settlements across a vast territory with the largest containing hundreds of thousands of inhabitants and all obeying a central authority.
Well, I don't see why not.

Just ignore the fact that Keepers and Seers and Shamans rule and that is one of the veryconsequences of mage freedom that the
Circles safeguard against, regardless of whether this rule is achieved through force or cultural domination.

You'd think Dean would havê said this enough but just because the culture of the Dales or Traditional Rivain persist, it doesn't mean their mages are not causing devastation. It just means it is not enough to wipe them out.

But yeah, sure. Let's tell Orlais they are weakening their communities by removing the mages. Just look at the powerhouses that are the Dalish, Avvar and Rivain.
Now, they are something.

[Master Warder Z_]

Heh

[MisterJB]

Additionally, The Free Mages of Thedas were independent of the Circle for a year or more and did not devolve into a force of Abominations.

Why is it that the normal people of Thedas believe tbe Circles to be necessary?

1-Because mages can maliciously hurt others with their great powers.

2-Because they don't believe mages will prosecute crimes commited by mages against normals.

3-Because they don't wish the return of Tevinter.

4-Because mages can be possessed.

Só, let us see.

1-There were groups of mages burning people alive in the Hinterlands for fun because they believed magic gave them the right.

2-The mages in Redcliff completely failed to prevent or punish these crimes commited by their fellow mages against normals.

3-They sided with Tevinter and assisted in the occupation of Redcliff.

So, 3 out of 4.

[Steelcan]

That's why I liked Cullen's idea of having mages do a term of military service, because I think mages would respond better to being watched over by their brothers- and sisters-in-arms than to being watched over by people they're expected to treat as superiors. It would also allow them to travel, which is a luxury they didn't always enjoy in the Circles.

Its really not a good idea, putting mages on the front lines in wars is a recipe for abominations.  Stress from fighting, pressure from superiors to take a more active role in combat, and so on would not help mages in the long run, only make them more susceptible to demons.

 

And that's not even with demons being much more powerful in areas where the veil is thin such as battlefields

[Dabrikishaw]

Answering MyKingdomCold real quick becuase I have no interest in the thread as a whole, the answer is a blank yes.  Mages can be given permission to leave if they prove themselves worthy of the privilege. Obviously it's never going to be given to everyone under that particular rule, only the exceptional and well-behaved.

[Deztyn]

Why is it that the normal people of Thedas believe tbe Circles to be necessary?

1-Because mages can maliciously hurt others with their great powers.

2-Because they don't believe mages will prosecute crimes commited by mages against normals.

3-Because they don't wish the return of Tevinter.

4-Because mages can be possessed.

Só, let us see.

1-There were groups of mages burning people alive in the Hinterlands for fun because they believed magic gave them the right.

2-The mages in Redcliff completely failed to prevent or punish these crimes commited by their fellow mages against normals.

3-They sided with Tevinter and assisted in the occupation of Redcliff.

So, 3 out of 4.

Forgot another important one:

5 - Because mages can accidentally cause a lot of harm to people and their surroundings.

Teagan's list of damages includes: - A freehold burned to the ground because a mage lost control, farms that were damaged and lost their crops (catastrophic loss for families) and several people injured in the village by children casting lightning spells.

This is pretty clearly from members of the proper mage rebellion. If it was the extremists it would be a much longer list and he wouldn't be sending the bill to the Inquisition.

So 4/5.