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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The possessed Connor did do that, but there are also abominations that are much less powerful. Now I'm curious what the norm is, whether Connor was an unusually powerful one or if there are lots of cases like his.

Well, the Codex for abominations never mentions anything resembling the ones that charge at you with their claws and have no magic apart from exploding when they die. There's no real source on what an average abomination is, but we have from Word of Gaider (supported if you carefully read the Codex) that their main danger is their magic and their tendency to let other demons loose as well. So, Uldred and Connor might conceivably be more dangerous than an ordinary abomination (and heck, they're probably above average since they're Pride and Desire abominations respectively), but since according to the lore other abominations have at least the same kind of power there's a limit to how much less so most of them would be.

 

And at any rate there's a Codex on the Circles that states that whole cities have fallen to abominations, so even if they're above average they're certainly not without precedent. The author is undeniably biased, but if she's outright lying you'd expect the lord she originally wrote to catch her.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Just ignore the fact that Keepers and Seers and Shamans rule and that is one of the veryconsequences of mage freedom that the
Circles safeguard against, regardless of whether this rule is achieved through force or cultural domination.

You'd think Dean would havê said this enough but just because the culture of the Dales or Traditional Rivain persist, it doesn't mean their mages are not causing devastation. It just means it is not enough to wipe them out.

Adding to this: the Dalish portion of the Main Plot of the first game revolves around a werewolf curse set up by an angry mage, which chased the human populations away from the Dalish and eventually came home to harm the Dalish as well. Notwithstanding that his anger was understandable given what happened to cause it, Zathrian acted on it in a truly irresponsible manner and while his leadership was apparently good in other directions the curse really could have destroyed his clan. Heck, it can destroy his clan if the Warden decides to allow it.

 

Then there's DA2, where Merril seeks to repair a powerful magical artifact using a demon's advice. Now, she seems to have the brains not to use the demon's magic, and she's aware that using demons is really, really dangerous and asks Hawke to be nearby to kill her if she goes abomination. This is still ridiculously stupid of her, and could lead to her clan's destruction if the demon kills Hawke or slips by. But we know that this probably wouldn't have happened, because a more experienced and more powerful mage deliberately let the demon out to possess her instead and Hawke killed the more powerful abomination.

 

And then there's Velanna, whose sister was captured by the darkspawn. Said darkspawn sought to deflect attention onto the humans. Velanna falls into a deception Oghren smells something wrong with at a glance and the WC works out the details of with almost no difficulty and allows herself to be baited into killing a whole lot of defenseless humans in order to recover her sister from them.

 

This can't possibly be typical of the Keepers and the Firsts, because if it was their clans would have long ago died out, but the fact that it can happen proves that whatever the Keepers do to train their Firsts isn't exactly a foolproof guarantee of wisdom and restraint. Now, the problem of deliberate abuse of magic isn't enough on its own that I'd suggest using the Circles, but it's evidence against the idea that the Dalish have a better system, isn't it?

[Andreas Amell]

But how have the Avvar and the Rivaini addressed the threat of possession? 

[Barquiel]

Forgot another important one:

5 - Because mages can accidentally cause a lot of harm to people and their surroundings.

Teagan's list of damages includes: - A freehold burned to the ground because a mage lost control, farms that were damaged and lost their crops (catastrophic loss for families) and several people injured in the village by children casting lightning spells.

This is pretty clearly from members of the proper mage rebellion. If it was the extremists it would be a much longer list and he wouldn't be sending the bill to the Inquisition.

So 4/5.

Thast's simply collateral damage from wartime. It happens all the time with mundanes, too. And Teagan's list is rather short...just look at the areas where Gaspard's and Celene's troops fought.

As for the other points, Anora/Alistair and the "regular" templars didn't do anything to stop the mess in the Hinterlands and that herbalist lady in Redcliffe tells us that she ran out of supplies treating people in the village who were injured from the attacks by the templars. But the rebel mages...who are already outnumbered...are supposed to police the hinterlands?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Thast's simply collateral damage from wartime. It happens all the time with mundanes, too. And Teagan's list is rather short...just look at the areas where Gaspard's and Celene's troops fought.

As for the other points, Anora/Alistair and the "regular" templars didn't do anything to stop the mess in the Hinterlands and that herbalist lady in Redcliffe tells us that she ran out of supplies treating people in the village who were injured from the attacks by the templars. But the rebel mages...who are already outnumbered...are supposed to police the hinterlands?

Yes, they are supposed to do exactly that. They explicitly state in their manifesto that the reason Templars aren't needed anymore is that the mages are going to protect mundanes from evil mages now. They spectacularly failed to deliver.

 

And we aren't entirely sure how much of that is actual collateral damage from a legitimate fight. The panicked children don't seem to have been firing on enemies (or at least not exclusively on enemies) and mages don't only lose control of their powers in combat situations. Yeah, these are more likely to happen in a fight, but it's not explicitly stated and the mage losing control of his powers is something that can happen in basic training.

 

But how have the Avvar and the Rivaini addressed the threat of possession?

Well, to be honest, we don't know that they have. We haven't gotten in depth enough experience with their social system to know if they train mages to resist, if they find benevolent spirits to possess them to crowd out the demons, or what it is they do. Nor do we know anything of how well it works except that these cultures still exist, which is not very specific. They might have a better system. They might also have a magical powder keg just waiting to produce the next PC's world-threatening disaster. We don't know.

[Barquiel]

Yes, they are supposed to do exactly that. They explicitly state in their manifesto that the reason Templars aren't needed anymore is that the mages are going to protect mundanes from evil mages now. They spectacularly failed to deliver.

With the templar attacks they simply don't have the manpower to patrol the area. I think Leliana's solution in the epilogue is their moment to prove to the Chantry and everyone else that they can create their own college, and that they can police themselves without the supervision of the Templars. A war of survival isn't a very good test.

[Boost32]

Its the perfect test, they can't be trusted in distress situations, they need to stay in the Circles.

[Iakus]

 

Those are actually good points, and it looks like I misjudged you as being totally unsympathetic to mages, so I'm sorry for that.

 

The possessed Connor did do that, but there are also abominations that are much less powerful. Now I'm curious what the norm is, whether Connor was an unusually powerful one or if there are lots of cases like his.

 

I'm also curious about Tevinter. There's a lot wrong with the Imperium--slavery topping the list--but it sounds pretty orderly, if nothing else. The templars there have been pretty well de-fanged, and if mages needed to be under the kind of tight templar control they used in Ferelden and Orlais to prevent them from becoming abominations, then I have to assume that without templars, Tevinter would be practically overrun with abominations all the time. But it isn't. I haven't read all about the Imperium in the codex like I said, but if possession were a frequent problem then I have to believe Dorian would have mentioned it in our initial conversations.

 

I suspect it's gameplay/story segregation.  Based on in-game lore, abominations are supposed to have all the worst features of a demon and a mage.  So examples like Connor and Uldred are likely supposed to be the more typical examples.  In Awakening, Anders had an anecdote of a cat possessed by a demon which killed two Templars before it was brought down.  That abominations were reduced to mere mooks ended up trivializing the threat.  Much like Pride demons in DAI are merely tougher demons hanging out by rifts when they should be at the top of the demonic food chain.

 

We know little of Tevinter's internal workings.  Maybe their abomination problem is greater than they claim.  I mean, we all know they absolutely don't practice blood magic, right?  

[Iakus]

But how have the Avvar and the Rivaini addressed the threat of possession? 

The Avvar seem to have a ritual that can separate a spirit from its host.  But it seems to require both sides be willing.  It might be useful in a case like Anders.  But not all cases.

[Iakus]

 

And at any rate there's a Codex on the Circles that states that whole cities have fallen to abominations, so even if they're above average they're certainly not without precedent. The author is undeniably biased, but if she's outright lying you'd expect the lord she originally wrote to catch her.

Blackmarsh alone proves that can happen.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Awakening, Anders had an anecdote of a cat possessed by a demon which killed two Templars before it was brought down.

A Rage Demon, if I remember correctly. While there are exceptions they're usually relatively weak. Lets not skate over the fact that the demon that brought those two Templars down was (if I remember the type correctly) in all likelihood a Fade bottom-feeder.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

We know little of Tevinter's internal workings.  Maybe their abomination problem is greater than they claim.  I mean, we all know they absolutely don't practice blood magic, right?  

According to Word of Gaider the Tevinter system's differences with the White Chantry's are more details than anything else. Which seems to be born out by Devera mentioning a "Minrathous Circle" and Dorian's description of his Harrowing.

[Vit246]

Its the perfect test, they can't be trusted in distress situations, they need to stay in the Circles.

The Circles MADE them that way. The way they're designed, they made it so that most mages have great difficulty in adapting to or coping with conditions outside of the Circle. They stunt their growth and connections with mundane society and the greater outside world.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Circles MADE them that way. The way they're designed, they made it so that most mages have great difficulty in adapting to or coping with conditions outside of the Circle. They stunt their growth and connections with mundane society and the greater outside world.

And yet they rebelled. What Boost is trying to say, I think, is that rebelling was a questionable decision. I don't see how this argument really answers that. It seems more like an argument in favor of his conclusion from a different angle of attack.

[MisterJB]

Thast's simply collateral damage from wartime. It happens all the time with mundanes, too. And Teagan's list is rather short...just look at the areas where Gaspard's and Celene's troops fought.

As for the other points, Anora/Alistair and the "regular" templars didn't do anything to stop the mess in the Hinterlands and that herbalist lady in Redcliffe tells us that she ran out of supplies treating people in the village who were injured from the attacks by the templars. But the rebel mages...who are already outnumbered...are supposed to police the hinterlands?

If you start a rebellion under the basis that Templars aren't needed because mages can be trusted to police themselves, I expect the mages to police themselves. If they can't or won't, we have the right to call the rebellion into question and use it as evidence why the Templars were right all along.
 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

With the templar attacks they simply don't have the manpower to patrol the area. I think Leliana's solution in the epilogue is their moment to prove to the Chantry and everyone else that they can create their own college, and that they can police themselves without the supervision of the Templars. A war of survival isn't a very good test.

Well, they knew the Templars were going to attack them. They said that those among their number who harmed others would be punished with full knowledge that they were going to be dealing with Templar interference at least at first. They either didn't realize that that was going to be a logistical problem, or thought they could handle it and couldn't. Neither of these is a good recommendation for a group that's fighting for independence from the group that was governing them. Or, and this I don't want to believe, they knew they weren't going to be able to do it effectively at first and said they would anyway as justification for their rebellion.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, they knew the Templars were going to attack them. They said that those among their number who harmed others would be punished with full knowledge that they were going to be dealing with both Templars and evil mages at the start. They either didn't realize that that was going to be a logistical problem, or thought they could handle it and couldn't. Or, and this I don't want to believe, they knew they weren't going to be able to do it effectively at first and said they would anyway as justification for their rebellion.

 

Knowing the Libertarians I wouldn't honestly be surprised if that was the case truthfully.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Knowing the Libertarians I wouldn't honestly be surprised if that was the case truthfully.

I mean, that's a scary thought, but you're not wrong that they can be that sort of people sometimes.

[MisterJB]

 

Besides, the war is no excuse. What it proves is that mages may, MAY, be willing to police themselves but NOT if that places their lives at risk. That is the whole point.

The war was good test to see just how commited they actually were to uphold the principles of the Circles without the Templars and they failed massivelly. When push comes to shove, mages won't care what other mages do and will, in fact, side with Tevinter against non-mage nations.

 

Whatever trust they may have been afforded is gone.

[Qun00]

I have considered being pro Circle but it ultimately doesn't deliver when Inquisition's Divine candidates put that into practice.

Cassandra fails to earn the mages favor and Vivienne is a tyrant.

Regarding the rebellion, it's true that Fiona had poor timing but I wonder if we can criticisize their war in a general sense.

During Broken Circle one of the blood mages tells you "Andraste waged war on the Imperium; she didn't write them a strongly worded letter" and I have a hard time arguing with that.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I have considered being pro Circle but it ultimately doesn't deliver when Inquisition's Divine candidates put that into practice.

Cassandra fails to earn the mages favor and Vivienne is a tyrant.

Regarding the rebellion, it's true that Fiona had poor timing but I wonder if we can criticisize their war in a general sense.

During Broken Circle one of the blood mages tells you "Andraste waged war on the Imperium; she didn't write them a strongly worded letter" and I have a hard time arguing with that.

Like Booker tells Elizabeth in Bioshock, "If you don't draw first, you don't get to draw at all." 

[youtube]v=iN0yexzPlis[/youtube]

[Master Warder Z_]

During Broken Circle one of the blood mages tells you "Andraste waged war on the Imperium; she didn't write them a strongly worded letter" and I have a hard time arguing with that.

 

Andraste brought the greatest empire in the history of the world crashing to it's knees because she had an army, she inspired that army to confront legions of the best professional soldiers that had lived to that era and won. She liberated territory after territory like it was the will of God himself and marched to the very gates of the heart of the Imperium and defeated an army at their walls.

 

Fiona picked a fight they could never win, she is no Andraste.

[Drasanil]

Cassandra fails to earn the mages favor and Vivienne is a tyrant.

 

She has an odd way of tyrannical, granting mages more personal freedom and responsibility than they have known in a long time, if ever, under the circles.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Andraste brought the greatest empire in the history of the world crashing to it's knees because she had an army, she inspired that army to confront legions of the best professional soldiers that had lived to that era and won. She liberated territory after territory like it was the will of God himself and marched to the very gates of the heart of the Imperium and defeated an army at their walls.

 

Fiona picked a fight they could never win, she is no Andraste.

Well Fiona didn't fight like Andraste, she optomistically believed that muggles would see the best in them and that they would work together to show that mages can be free and not be at odds. If she went the Calpernia route and fought like an army, for the glory of some mage-dominating empire, well maybe they could have won. She tried diplomacy instead of guerrilla warfare.

[The Baconer]

I have considered being pro Circle but it ultimately doesn't deliver when Inquisition's Divine candidates put that into practice.

 

(...)

During Broken Circle one of the blood mages tells you "Andraste waged war on the Imperium; she didn't write them a strongly worded letter" and I have a hard time arguing with that.

 

A mage being the manifestation of the Maker's will upon Thedas? What greater victory could there be?