111 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr.Fumbles]

I would rather stick with my Archer and become a master sniper instead going with my elementalist for one very good reason. I find the Archer more enjoyable. Not to mention Long Shot if shot correctly can be just as effective as Firestorm.

[russ4ua16]

Never played with a good assassin? We don't ask for barrier and we take care of those nasty Despair Demons and archers. One shot revenants and horrors? We got that. Need a res? Np, I'm in stealth for half of it.

Mages do have it made tho

[Drasca]

I too when through a phase where I said, no warrior/rogues please... then I got better gear, builds and coordination/tactics. Now.. let's just have some fun so long as all bases are covered.

[Shinnyshin]

Best group compositions:

 

3X AW, Keeper/Elementalist

2X AW, Elementalist, Keeper

AW, Elementalist, Keeper, Keeper

AW, Elementalist, Elementalist, Keeper

 

You know what, any of the combination of the above is top notch. Barrier rocks.

Don't 4 archers have the fastest Perilous cleartime on record?  And Legionnaire is a much better tank than AW against Red Templars, though AW wins against Demons, though he doesn't earn your team's adoration.  Having a god tank on your team can carry a run very, very hard and enable other class options with aggro control.  Also, you're massively overrating AW.  He's quite good for clear safety, sure.  But there comes a point in your progression where clear safety...doesn't mean what it once did.  He's not that good for clear speed, especially in the comps you listed--and just because one of them can solo a map against Demons doesn't mean more of them are particularly efficient.

 

Once you reach this shifting point--or run a single Lego, who lets the entire team play differently--things like Templar, Necro, Assassin, Hunter, and Archer become much more appealing than AW.  Hell, I'd take Necro over Ele with many such groups just because Necro does so much more damage.

[akots1]

Maybe you got lucky with really strong groups. A well-played, leveled and coordinated group in perilous can make the world of difference, because trust me- all mage groups can still wipe.

This.

 

Also, OP is a Tevinter spy. Reported to Sister Nightingale.

[McPartyson]

-In the form of Spirit Damage, the ultimate damage type due to it's low resistances and armor avoidance, Spirit Blade has projectile deflection (which does damage back to the attacker), guard damage and barrier damage wrapped up into 2 points.

 

-Katari can't deflect ranged attacks, in fact, taking ranged damage is just one of the Kataris biggest weaknesses. To deflect melee attacks you need Block and Slash as a skill and then you have to stop attacking to activate the skill at which point you become rooted for the duration of the block; that's just for melee blocking (what were they thinking?). Spirit Blade, all you do is swing while you're slashing through enemies, moving forward, and bolts from Wraiths go flying back at them... I mean come on, where's the warrior's answer to this? Totally unprotected from ranged attackers as it is.

 

Grappling Chain the ranged attackers you say? Wraiths and many non-humanoid enemies cannot be grappled.

 

So many of the Katari's abilities are conditional to situations where he's totally screwed if he's facing enemy types immune to his skills.

 

Immune to knockdown? Uh oh...i'll have to kite... I guess... but I don't have ranged attacks... so i'll do some jousting instead!

 

-Grappling Chain: doesn't work with everything. Sometimes just doesn't connect properly, just falls limp to the floor.

-Bear mauls Wolves: doesn't protect on knockdowns that actually matter (terrors, demon commander, etc)

-Combat Roll upgrade: recovers from "most" disabling conditions... I don't know which ones aren't covered...but why the heck not all disabling conditions for 2 points in this mediocre skill. Give me some guard for that roll, it costs me 20 stamina.

-Block and Slash: this only blocks melee and actually not even all melee attacks haha...and just plain clunky to use. roots you in place. costs stamina to use. mediocre damage on success of block.

-To the Death: Well, using this on a boss can make life very dangerous, lol. Using it on regular enemies is OK for guard, but has a long cool down, and the damage increase doesn't really see much use in most battles due to things dying fairly quickly. Also, it has an annoyingly long animation time.

 

*Why the Katari has Threat increase passive and Challenge in his Right Tree? a mystery to me*

 

 

Arcane Warrior faces group of archers:

 

-Quick n Dirty: Chain Lightning to build barrier with Fade Shield, they spot you, you Fade Step into group, Spirit Blade while having FULL BARRIER until dead (add Pull of the Abyss before Chain Lightning if you want it done really nice)

 

Katari faces group of archers:

 

-Charging Bull...hopefully archers don't take any of my health off or straight up kill me before I even get there. Knock em down. Mighty Blow...Archers get back up, shoot you. dead. If you specced into Earthshaking Strike...maybe you take them out before they take you out? Maybe use a combination of Combat Roll to roll on the ground like an idiot while possibly getting shot... or spec into Grapple...but then you start running out of precious skill slots...

[Jkregers]

The problem is that the mages can fill every role almost perfectly....ranged dps, dps, tank, support, CC. Their dps isn't on par compared to some classes, but it is definitely suitable for all of the challenges that are currently available. 

 

A good start would be to nerf barrier and place more of an emphasis on guard being the main defense for the party's tanks, and combined with taunts, the main defense for your group. Barriers could be more effective against magic/ranged attacks, guard could be more effective against melee attacks.

 

In a perfect game, the hardest challenge would require/dang near require....a team with multiple roles filled by various classes. 

 

Maybe the mage's barrier could be a 5-8 second duration, to encourage more strategy when placing it. 

 

Sorry about all of the edits...it's late. 

[Shinnyshin]

In the form of Spirit Damage, the ultimate damage type due to it's low resistances and armor avoidance also has projectile deflection (which does damage back to the attacker), guard damage and barrier damage wrapped up into 2 points.

 

Katari can't deflect ranged attacks, in fact, taking ranged damage is just one of the Kataris biggest weaknesses. To deflect melee attacks, you need Block and Slash as a skill and then you have to stop attacking to activate the skill at which point you become rooted for the duration of the block. Spirit Blade, all you do is swing while you're slashing through enemies, moving forward, and bolts from Wraiths go flying back at them... I mean come on, where's the warrior's answer to this? Totally unprotected from ranged attackers as it is.

Your choice of Warrior for comparison is the Katari, widely acknowledged as the worst class in the game.  Why?  The Templar also does tons of Spirit damage, which you just praised as a virtue for mages.  Lego is absolutely top tier.  Reaver is...weird right now but inarguably better than the Katari.  Why on Earth would you choose this game's Splash Magikarp as the Warrior to compare to the AW?

[haxaw]

Your choice of Warrior for comparison is the Katari, widely acknowledged as the worst class in the game.  Why?  The Templar also does tons of Spirit damage, which you just praised as a virtue for mages.  Lego is absolutely top tier.  Reaver is...weird right now but inarguably better than the Katari.  Why on Earth would you choose this game's Splash Magikarp as the Warrior to compare to the AW?

 

You take that back!

 

[McPartyson]

Your choice of Warrior for comparison is the Katari, widely acknowledged as the worst class in the game.  Why?  The Templar also does tons of Spirit damage, which you just praised as a virtue for mages.  Lego is absolutely top tier.  Reaver is...weird right now but inarguably better than the Katari.  Why on Earth would you choose this game's Splash Magikarp as the Warrior to compare to the AW?

 

Templar is a regular joe if the 1-trick combo isn't working. Bring a mage. More reliable. Better utility/aoe/barrier and stays at range.

[Dr.Fumbles]

Templar is a regular joe if the 1-trick combo isn't working. Bring a mage. More reliable. Better utility/aoe/barrier and stays at range.

 

Mages get boring to play though.

[Shinnyshin]

Templar is a regular joe if the 1-trick combo isn't working. Bring a mage. More reliable. Better utility/aoe/barrier and stays at range.

 

Templar can make for some of the fastest runs and is absolutely phenomenal outside of Room 5--and that's not even getting into Keeper/Necro/AW synergy, which trivializes things that aren't bosses.  You're perhaps too quick to write off the "1-trick combo" given that it's the class's biggest asset and is obscenely good with the right gear--and works on almost everything.  And you're massively overrating Barrier for geared players; with a HoK ring, you don't even need one.  Sure, it's nice having a barrier or two on the team and let's you play a bit more recklessly...but three barriers is completely unnecessary.

 

Here's the thing, though.  Templar is basically a mage.  It doesn't play like a Warrior at all--if anything, Templar is an argument for why Mages are overpowered because it really is a melee Mage.  If you want a Mage to Warrior comparison, I recommend Legionnaire.  That's a Warrior that plays like a Warrior and is extremely strong.

[Stinja]

errr... every Pokemon is viable?

 

 

But the main issues are range trumps melee, broadly, in DAMP;  and mages have too much damage mitigation.

 

Elementalist should have Barrier or Death Syphon, not both.  Then everyone but Necro also gets Guardian Spirit, and Barrier is much Better than Guard...   

 

This interacts with the other game design decisions, such as enemy ranged damage, AI, and aggro.  The end result is sustained AoE dps, with high damage mitigation, is much better than fragile "tanks" with burst dps. 

 

Don't misinterpret me, all the warriors have a role, but they often feel somewhat lacking in that role.  How often to Lego's say "enemies run past me", or the 2Handers faceplant to far less damage than mages.  Katari is by far my most played kit, but i'm kidding myself if i think i contribute more on Perilous than if i was playing AW (inb4 l2p).

 

The main argument for not using mages in fun.  Personally i find most of the ranged kits very dull, and find mobility and burst damage as a more rewarding play experience, IMO.

 

(note I'm not discussing archers vs mages, that another whole topic...)

[McPartyson]

Templar can make for some of the fastest runs and is absolutely phenomenal outside of Room 5--and that's not even getting into Keeper/Necro/AW synergy, which trivializes things that aren't bosses.  You're perhaps too quick to write off the "1-trick combo" given that it's the class's biggest asset and is obscenely good with the right gear--and works on almost everything.  And you're massively overrating Barrier for geared players; with a HoK ring, you don't even need one.  Sure, it's nice having a barrier or two on the team and let's you play a bit more recklessly...but three barriers is completely unnecessary.

 

Ok. Mage synergy is still better Zones 1-5 Perilous. Things die quick anyways... And you're right. Barrier is awesome to me right now. I barely have any gear, and Perilous is incredibly easy for mages. Things die fast already. More survivability is never bad... maybe an elementalist skips barrier? Not a huge deal.

[Shinnyshin]

Ok. Mage synergy is still better Zones 1-5 Perilous. Things die quick anyways...

I don't buy that "things die quick anyways" argument at all, as if there's no difference between instakilling an entire group and quickly cleaning up the encounter in 20 seconds.  Because there's a difference.  Templars make for much faster runs than AWs/Elementalists and 4 Archers can clear Perilous in 1/2 or even 1/3rd another group's time.

 

Or is there no difference between 5 and 15 minutes because they're both pretty quick?

[haxaw]

Sure, it's nice having a barrier or two on the team and let's you play a bit more recklessly...but three barriers is completely unnecessary.

 

One competent Barrier-er is all you need. Perilous PuGed as a lvl 7 Ele that beelined for Barrier + Upgrades with a Katari, Reaver, and Archer. Pretty much breezed through each of the several games we played. Of course, credit to all three of those players for being on top of their game. But I suspect a near-constant Barrier made their lives just a little bit easier. No voice chat by anyone. Naturally, that was an uncommon experience for PuGing, but it goes to show how big of an impact a single Barrier can be.

 

Nerf Barrier, Buff Guard.

[SicMirx]

Don't get me wrong, I love three of the mages, but if you only play the Necro, Keeper and Ele, it's boring. AW I find just boring in general. I love face tanking the DC with teammates spamming "Get over here!" as the Templar or Lego. I love just darting around wrecking face with a Hunter. Etc.

I play for fun. Hell, even my Keeper isn't a support any longer because that got boring. But if you're also saying that classes like the Assassin, Lego and Reaver are useless, I'll let you think that and have my fun.

[McPartyson]

I don't buy that "things die quick anyways" argument at all, as if there's no difference between instakilling an entire group and quickly cleaning up the encounter in 20 seconds.  Because there's a difference.  Templars make for much faster runs than AWs/Elementalists and 4 Archers can clear Perilous in 1/2 or even 1/3rd another group's time.

 

Or is there no difference between 5 and 15 minutes because they're both pretty quick?

 

Dunno about that much of a difference.

 

Pull of the Abyss+Static Cage+Firestorm and then mop up with primary AoE skills on every group is very quick.

 

Plus Templar has to run over to group.

[McPartyson]

Don't get me wrong, I love three of the mages, but if you only play the Necro, Keeper and Ele, it's boring. AW I find just boring in general. I love face tanking the DC with teammates spamming "Get over here!" as the Templar or Lego. I love just darting around wrecking face with a Hunter. Etc.

I play for fun. Hell, even my Keeper isn't a support any longer because that got boring. But if you're also saying that classes like the Assassin, Lego and Reaver are useless, I'll let you think that and have my fun.

 

I think all classes are fun. I'm arguing class value/balance.

[Shinnyshin]

Nerf Barrier, Buff Guard.

That's...a hard statement to make since most guard-generating abilities don't just generate guard.  They generate guard, AoE taunt, taunt, AoE stagger, AoE knockdown counterattack enemies, damage amp, etc...  The least impactful guard-generation ability I can think of is Unbowed, which I'd say does need a buff.  Barrier probably needs a nerf--especially AW barrier generation, but I'm not sure that means guard needs a buff.

 

Dunno about that much of a difference.

 

Pull of the Abyss+Static Cage+Firestorm and then mop up with primary AoE skills on every group is very quick.

 

Plus Templar has to run over to group.

All good abilities...but imagine if you swapped things out.  Templar combo + Static Cage + PotA + Longshot, for example.  Or Deathblow + Static Cage + PotA + Longshot.  Hell, have you seen the Deathblow Cage PotA combo?  It puts everything you listed to shame and still has an open slot--which would be best filled by picks you haven't rated highly.

 

My point is that mages are really good for breaking into the higher difficulties--they let you punch above your weight.  But once you're really at that weight, there are many more options and what's good gets redefined a lot.

[McPartyson]

That's...a hard statement to make since most guard-generating abilities don't just generate guard.  They generate guard, AoE taunt, taunt, AoE stagger, AoE knockdown counterattack enemies, damage amp, etc...  The least impactful guard-generation ability I can think of is Unbowed, which I'd say does need a buff.  Barrier probably needs a nerf--especially AW barrier generation, but I'm not sure that means guard needs a buff.

 

All good abilities...but imagine if you swapped things out.  Templar combo + Static Cage + PotA + Longshot, for example.  Or Deathblow + Static Cage + PotA + Longshot.  Hell, have you seen the Deathblow Cage PotA combo?  It puts everything you listed to shame.

 

My point is that mages are really good for breaking into the higher difficulties--they let you punch above your weight.  But once you're really at that weight, there are many more options and what's good gets redefined a lot.

 

Ok. I agree with you on most of your points especially since I only have 3-4 days of multiplayer experience. But...

 

If a new difficulty is introduced by Bioware... it's back to mage synergy until the other classes can gear up since the mages eventually over-extend in their survivability abilities on current Perilous once everyone is geared.

[Shinnyshin]

Ok. I agree with you on most of your points especially since I only have 3-4 days of multiplayer experience. But...

 

If a new difficulty is introduced by Bioware... it's back to mage synergy until the other classes can gear up since the mages eventually over-extend in their survivability abilities on current Perilous once everyone is geared.

If a new difficulty is introduced, Lego will be the best class in the game by a mile.  Lego + Ele pulls.  Again, Legos are insanely strong--it's the only class in the game that can tank literally anything.  Legos also synergize incredibly well with mages, by the way, while also making the squishier classes viable because Counterstrike's global taunt is ridiculously broken.

 

Archer will also multiply in value 'cuz Death Mark.  Assassin too, maybe, 'cuz Deathblow scales with the enemies extremely well.

[McPartyson]

If a new difficulty is introduced, Lego will be the best class in the game by a mile.  Lego + Ele pulls.  Again, Legos are insanely strong--it's the only class in the game that can tank literally anything.  Legos also synergize incredibly well with mages, by the way, while also making the squishier classes viable because Counterstrike's global taunt is ridiculously broken.

 

Ya. You're right. Maybe that's the real problem? Perilous is too easy to require an actual tank?

[haxaw]

That's...a hard statement to make since most guard-generating abilities don't just generate guard.  They generate guard, AoE taunt, taunt, AoE stagger, AoE knockdown counterattack enemies, damage amp, etc...  The least impactful guard-generation ability I can think of is Unbowed, which I'd say does need a buff.  Barrier probably needs a nerf--especially AW barrier generation, but I'm not sure that means guard needs a buff.

 

The following pertains primarily to Perilous.

 

When a full Guard with a max Guard upgrade or two (whether through gear or passives) is completely taken out, along with a decent chunk of health, by one or two arrows, that says to me something is wrong. The short answer is: Guard needs a buff. The more accurate answer, is that Guard's dependence on armor rating suffers due to the limited armor currently available (as opposed to the single player).

 

In general, Guard users can't rely on it mitigating any appreciable amount of damage. Shield Wall, being the most common source of Guard for most players (though I personally tend to avoid using it), takes some amount of stamina to generate Guard. While the stamina cost isn't great, generating full Guard would take away a good chunk of your stamina (stamina amulet notwithstanding). All the while, you move like molasses and aren't pulling any extra threat or dishing out damage.

 

One of the best examples is probably Charging Bull. When I look at the Katari's available skills, it would seem that he was intended to charge in, knock some saps over, smack em around a bit, then charge into the next group. As things stand now, even if you line 'em up and get full Guard, you have time to drop a skill, maybe two, then you really need to get out of there. I don't see "use Heal on Kill rings" as an acceptable response, since 1) that would imply certain gear is a prerequisite for a class and 2) RNG would like a word with you. (Case in point, I now have every single unique ring I am aware of, with a couple duplicates, but have never laid my grubby hands on a Superb HoK).

 

While it's true Guard-generating skills tend to have other (arguably primary) functions, but the Guard being generated invariably has some sort of synergistic intent behind it. You War Cry to aggro enemies, and the Guard helps you absorb the incoming hits (Counterstrike is the souped up version of this). Shield Wall to block attacks, then use Guard to mitigate damage as you attack to regain stamina (one of the passives even increase stamina gain after blocking). Walking Fortress to save yourself from death, and the generated Guard gives you some breathing room once it wears off, etc. Weak as Guard is, I think most of this synergy is lost or greatly diminished.

 

I'm totally with you in seeing Legionnaire as an ultra strong class. The generous selection of threat management, combo detonators, damage absorption, and damage negation are unrivaled as a package. If Guard is to be buffed, then I would simultaneously advocate nerfing some Legionnaire-specific abilities, maybe starting with WF and CS.

 

As for barrier, the Arcane Warrior's 30% generation is just too much given the damage he can throw out, and the Barrier spell provides several silly seconds of straight invulnerability on cast. I do think the damage absorption of barrier itself is a little much, but with the above changes, it wouldn't be egregious. And if more difficult content is to be released, Barrier damage absorption in its current form may be acceptable.

[Infinity61]

How else is anyone going to prestige cunning up to retarded levels of crit and make certain classes SUPER op?