72 réponses à ce sujet

[Laforgus]

Maybe I am running with poorly equipped people way too often. Camping usually goes about like this: first few mobs get plastered. the boss OTOH cannot be stopped in the Chokepoint. Either all the fire goes to him and the mobs flow in or people keep at the mobs and the boss starts to tear away at the players which causes fire on the choke point to slack and the mobs get in. Now, just like in any fortification scenario once your defenses are breached your protection is now your trap. Now you've got mobs + boss flooding into your former redoubt and there is nowhere to go, missile units have clear fields of fire on you, it is almost impossible to flee the room. Death ensues quickly because anyone downed has to be revived under enormous duress and one down quickly becomes 2 down. That isn't to say I haven't seen it work but when it works it is typically someone who has a really high end weapon that owns the field (but then again with good enough equipment you can use any strategy I think) but for the more typical party it only works vs the VC but, again, almost anything works vs the VC.

 

 

The Boss only follows 1 player, the strategy is simple, if you are mage or archer you run around distracting the boss , you can kite him if you can. for tank you can take the Boss to the back of the room and hold it.

 

Demon Commander change Target if he topples the one he follows.

 

90% of my games Boss get in, boss is dead, then we got outside to kick ass, is hard to find a good group but once you do you stick with it for many runs. good player always stick together.

[Sidney]

I think it's more a matter of tactics than gear. Once the boss enters the room, the person he/she/it is chasing should kite and stay alive. The rest of the team should still focus on the trash stream. Otherwise, exactly as you described, you quickly get overwhelmed and pinned down. The only tactical change that should happen when the boss enters the room is everybody should be aware of what the boss is doing so as not to die as collateral. Aside from that, the name of the game is still taking out the trash.

Kiting removes 25% of your fire power which makes it hard to keep the trash stream at bay. Plus given the rather smallish size of the areas kiting inevitable leads the boss into other players where AOE attacks can hit them. I don't mean to argue because I have no doubt what you are saying is your experience....it is just so at odds with what I've seen I can't reconcile the two things.

[haxaw]

Kiting removes 25% of your fire power which makes it hard to keep the trash stream at bay. Plus given the rather smallish size of the areas kiting inevitable leads the boss into other players where AOE attacks can hit them. I don't mean to argue because I have no doubt what you are saying is your experience....it is just so at odds with what I've seen I can't reconcile the two things.

 

Judging from the overwhelming responses here, I'd venture to say your experience (and I don't doubt you) is in the minority.

 

What difficulty do you tend to play on?

 

Let's flip it around, then: would those same groups that failed once the boss entered the room have succeeded running around outside?

[Sidney]

I tend to play threatening recently, it was routine until I got a few decent weapons. Effect is the same on both. Groups are PUGs but tend to be reasonably helpful and useful. There is almost never any voice communication in my games so there is very little direct coordination in my experience.

The response here really has shocked me. I'm going to have to really pay attention to what isn't going right and if I am not contributing to that defense properly -- am I the problem in other words and that is why my room defenses don't work.

[haxaw]

I tend to play threatening recently, it was routine until I got a few decent weapons. Effect is the same on both. Groups are PUGs but tend to be reasonably helpful and useful. There is almost never any voice communication in my games so there is very little direct coordination in my experience.

The response here really has shocked me. I'm going to have to really pay attention to what isn't going right and if I am not contributing to that defense properly -- am I the problem in other words and that is why my room defenses don't work.

 

I see. As your struggles have been entirely in Routine/Threatening, that says to me the people you happen to PuG with are in general much newer to the game than the average player base. That also suggests you are unlikely to be the sole problem (unless you're systematically causing your team wipes :X ). If you're interested in re-examining your approach, consider my earlier post in which I lay out the importance of prioritizing what task you should be carrying out, especially once the boss enters the room.

 

Simple rule of thumb: unless your team can very quickly spike down the boss, the one being chased should kite around while the rest deal with the incoming trash. Most of the time this will be the preferred plan of action.

[flexiblebadger]

   I get it why newer players do, although recently I've taken to just ignoring their frantic down-arrows until they either join me in the field, wipe from bad tactics, or vote-kick me in the lobby.  I know, kinda of a-hole(ish) of me.  But my real question is to those players who seem reasonably capable/competent who still think that strategy is gud.

 

  Why aren't we all just pairing up, covering east/west, and wrecking the individual enemies as they spawn?

because the door acts like a funnel and makes it easier to damage lots of enemies with aoe abilities i have wiped out 15+ enemies with antivan fire and explosive shot in that doorway, honestly you are in the wrong for splitting off from your team i just had somebody do this who was obviously a good player and he just let us all die while he tried to solo the rest of the wave and it did not work. just do what your team does

[flexiblebadger]

The Boss only follows 1 player, the strategy is simple, if you are mage or archer you run around distracting the boss , you can kite him if you can. for tank you can take the Boss to the back of the room and hold it.

 

Demon Commander change Target if he topples the one he follows.

 

90% of my games Boss get in, boss is dead, then we got outside to kick ass, is hard to find a good group but once you do you stick with it for many runs. good player always stick together.

this is it

this person has it right 

[Cette]

Haxaw has the right of it but I will say this. In any team based game the whole team executing a bad plan together will get farther than two half teams doing different ones.

So even if your team are being boneheads backing their play is more effective than dying alone.

[Arnold Friend]

Well, I have to admit that I'm impressed by many of the responses to my question.  I still maintain that in threatening, a sufficiently geared/experienced team splitting into pairs and executing Seek & Destroy (with correctly prioritized targets) is a viable (and fun) strategy.  In my observation, the danger from ranged usually stems from low dps/burst and from bad play (fighting in the open instead of using the side rooms, hallways, pillar-humping the raised platform, etc.), and can be greatly reduced by keeping LoS in mind when you're out there.  Admittedly, it can be reduced down to near zero by LoS at the choke-point, but in my experience I've seen quite a bit of the stuff going wrong at the choke-point that was brought up by others in this thread.

 

I have recently been trying to give the choke-point strategy a fair shake, and when executed well I'll concur is faster than Seek & Destroy.  I also no longer think that Choke Point is lazy or for players who can't be bothered with keeping LoS awareness.  When done poorly, the SHTF breakdown at the choke point seems to wipe groups pretty quickly after the first domino falls, and those groups probably don't have the coordination to execute Seek & Destroy either.  On the whole, I'll admit that I consider myself persuaded.  Nevertheless, if you happen to find yourself in a group that is steamrolling the content then maybe try mixing it up a little at stage 5.

[Kapsejs]

I recently had a threatening PuG where I was kiting the RTC in front of the font room, with a Katari, no less. It was amazing! But a lot of factors helped.

 

1. We were in the Orlesian Chateau end zone, the one with two thick pillars in front of the font room.

2. I got the aggro of the RTC early, and he decided to go after me instead of running up and smashing our two ranged units (a Keeper and an Archer, I think) who stood in the doorway.

3. The Keeper and the Archer attacked archers and mobs, who decided to run up to them instead of going after me. So the mobs tried to run up to the room to get a clear shot, which meant that I could Charge, MB and War Horn them while still zig-zagging between the pillars to avoid the boss. And the Keeper and archer were killed everything that got past me.

4. Running between the pillars meant extra protection for me from eventual archers. Pillars + gaining guard from Charging mobs + the Keeper casting a Barrier on me now and then = surprisingly durable Qunari!

 

I only died once, after we had killed the RTC and I tried to revive our Alchemist (who had been running around outside in stealth, killing prioritized targets before they could make it to the pillars.) But the Keeper and Archer managed to get us up. That was great fun, although I realize a lot has to go right for that to be a viable tactic. (Heavy risk, but the priiize)

[Diego Vargas]

The lego built correctly can solo threatening and not need to be in the starting room to funnel. There is one room in Orlesian chateau where, versing reds, you can trap the commander and have him spin on the spot to the point where you can just swing at him.. there are also barricades to stand behind and bring them to you at this same spot.

That is largely irrelevant as nobody cares what you do solo as it is just you in the map.

 

Go play perilous and have all 3 of your teammates die giving the monsters a 3x damage boost because you guys didnt bunker in the starting room.  A very very large majority of the player base will fail the mission in that situation.

[Shelled]

   I get it why newer players do, although recently I've taken to just ignoring their frantic down-arrows until they either join me in the field, wipe from bad tactics, or vote-kick me in the lobby.  I know, kinda of a-hole(ish) of me.  But my real question is to those players who seem reasonably capable/competent who still think that strategy is gud.

 

  Why aren't we all just pairing up, covering east/west, and wrecking the individual enemies as they spawn?

because having the enemies funnel towards you ends up being faster than running around aimlessly. If we are talking about efficiency in terms of how quick it gets done, sitting in the room is better because it makes the ranged come to you instead of the other way around.

I play on perilous though and haven't pugged in a long time. Its also easier to barrier multiple people when everyone is in the room. You don't have to camp even on perilous with a good group, but still its more efficient though.

[Diego Vargas]

Part of the other reason why people feel the bunker/funnel tactic doesnt work is that most pug's dont have or manage Crowd control well.

 

My Keeper alternates static cage and upgraded veilstrike (which is what like -60% enemy dps) to control the door and pack : Healing / Confusion / Pitch / Mist as my loadout.

 

I can usually keep everything controlled if people keep their wits about the situation and dont try and rush2win.

 

Also if everybody is in the room with me it is trivial to keep my enhanced / slow decay barriers up and healing mist grenades at max player yield.

 

I think with all the passives i have on my barrier in conjunction with veilstrike i am clipping 70-80% of the damage the party is taking purely from aoe weakness.

[Beerfish]

The reason imo camping is good is that it keeps the team together enough to rez each other.  It is a pretty biog deal if a player dies permanently on the last wave on a higher level.  Had a game just the other day in which we wiped almost solely do to that reason.

[hellbiter88]

Because if you build an elementalist with Fire mine, wall of fire, firestorm and barrier like I do.... wide open spaces don't work so well.

[Striken7]

I tend to play threatening recently, it was routine until I got a few decent weapons. Effect is the same on both. Groups are PUGs but tend to be reasonably helpful and useful. There is almost never any voice communication in my games so there is very little direct coordination in my experience.

The response here really has shocked me. I'm going to have to really pay attention to what isn't going right and if I am not contributing to that defense properly -- am I the problem in other words and that is why my room defenses don't work.

 

Well I personally have had a very similar experience, so don't feel crazy. More often than not, when the entire group camps the room, someone dies to the boss. I imagine it's for different and varying reasons (such as tunnel vision on the chokepoint, unfamiliarity with the boss mechanics, or general inexperience) but it inevitably results in a snowball effect until we wipe.

 

What I have found to work well (on Routing/Threatening with PUGs) is to go out into the open myself where I can perform one of two functions:

 

1) Let the boss go into the room while I kill or kite as many enemies as possible outside. This allows the remaining three to relatively safely handle the boss in addition to the few stragglers who get in, then come out and work on cleanup.

 

2) Kite the boss around outside, killing a handful of enemies in the process where I can, and allow the other three to use the chokepoint to kill the majority of enemies.

 

There are also those times where I will be joined out in the open by the rest of the group. This mostly happens when at least one or two other people have both good enough gear to feel confident, and the understanding to recognize the shift in strategy. In these cases what generally works best is melee tanking/kiting the boss with ranged each covering their own seperate directions, and always focusing on killing ranged enemies as the priority. With two strong ranged DPS you can thin the herd remarkably well before they pose any real threat to the group. This strategy does fall pretty flat when attempted with a melee heavy group, but it can still be done.

 

When done well, I find these runs much faster and safer then waiting for all the enemies to reach the camping room and risking a wipe.

[HTTP 404]

I always thought that was a bathroom break.

[haxaw]

[snipped]

 

Let me break it down: most people are saying Tactic A works most reliably, while you say Tactic B is preferable. Okay, fine. You then give examples of teams failing with Tactic A. That's okay, too, except you have to ask the question, "Would these same teams have instead succeeded using Tactic B?" Similarly, you give examples of teams using Tactic B succeeding, but you don't ask, "Would these same teams have instead failed using Tactic A?"

 

For your claim to have weight, the answer ought to be "Yes" for both. This is the only way you could reasonably claim B > A. It certainly doesn't have to be 100% of the time, but at least a substantial portion of the cases you're citing should apply.

[Altruismo]

I think the title of the thread answers itself.

Good/Experienced players camp 5/5 because they are good, and experienced.

It is the most likely tactic to succeed, it's more likely to succeed with a poor team than running around the map, and it's still going to succeed with a great team.

Sure, if your team is super-tight you can run around and clear the level slightly quicker (the enemies you're not currently chasing still have to come to where you are) but that team will still clear the level risk free by camping to door.

[Sidney]

Well I personally have had a very similar experience, so don't feel crazy. More often than not, when the entire group camps the room, someone dies to the boss. I imagine it's for different and varying reasons (such as tunnel vision on the chokepoint, unfamiliarity with the boss mechanics, or general inexperience) but it inevitably results in a snowball effect until we wipe.
 
What I have found to work well (on Routing/Threatening with PUGs) is to go out into the open myself where I can perform one of two functions:
 
1) Let the boss go into the room while I kill or kite as many enemies as possible outside. This allows the remaining three to relatively safely handle the boss in addition to the few stragglers who get in, then come out and work on cleanup.
 
2) Kite the boss around outside, killing a handful of enemies in the process where I can, and allow the other three to use the chokepoint to kill the majority of enemies.
 
There are also those times where I will be joined out in the open by the rest of the group. This mostly happens when at least one or two other people have both good enough gear to feel confident, and the understanding to recognize the shift in strategy. In these cases what generally works best is melee tanking/kiting the boss with ranged each covering their own seperate directions, and always focusing on killing ranged enemies as the priority. With two strong ranged DPS you can thin the herd remarkably well before they pose any real threat to the group. This strategy does fall pretty flat when attempted with a melee heavy group, but it can still be done.
 
When done well, I find these runs much faster and safer then waiting for all the enemies to reach the camping room and risking a wipe.

The kite the boss around the map, when I have a ranged character, had become my go to answer to the problems of the entry room and I found it worked rather well. the success rate, especially vs the RTC, went way up for me.

[poloboyz93]

It's like asking why we camped the box in me3mp fire base rio. So we can all die together thinking we had a "pro" plan

[Sidney]

It's like asking why we camped the box in me3mp fire base rio. So we can all die together thinking we had a "pro" plan

That was stupid beyond all reason and I never once felt bad leaving people who wanted to camp there to their fates. It sounds like plenty of good players think camping the room is a good idea.

[Miracle_Machine]

Because it makes it really easy to spam meteors as an Elementalist.