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[Ashagar]

I have wondered that my-self at times, I mean humans apparently didn't worship them first given that the human tribes that came out of the north worshiped the deity later known as the maker before starting to worship them or were animist and the humans that came out the west worshiped the same gods as the Avvar currently do.

[Jaspe84]

yes, well everything about gods and religion is explained very vaguely in the game, nothing like religions in real life where there is almost always pretty detailed historical literature to narrate the events that led to people believing said god/gods.

[Monica21]

First, I would like to say... FIRST!

 

Second, here's the theory in full, please let me know what you think, and add to this if you can:

 

Fade text

 

• WE ARE HERE
• WE HAVE WAITED
• WE HAVE SLEPT
• WE ARE SUNDERED
• WE ARE CRIPPLED
• WE ARE POLLUTED
• WE ENDURE
• WE WAIT
• WE HAVE FOUND THE DREAMS AGAIN
• WE WILL AWAKEN

 

This sounds remarkably like the codex entry for the Profane. And no, I can't even begin to guess why or what to do with that.

 

"We who are forgotten, remember,
We clawed at rock until our fingers bled,
We cried out for justice, but were unheard.
Our children wept in hunger,
And so we feasted upon the gods.
Here we wait, in aeons of silence.
We few, we profane."

 

at any rate, i do remember that yavana in one of those comics--iirc-- also alluded to the idea that the death of all the dragons would bring doom.

and then solas is quick to say that there is nothing in the lore that points to a connection between the old gods--presumbly the ones tevinter worshipped, and the elven.

 

idk, i'm getting mixed signals here. lol!

 

Yeah, Solas is a little too quick to say it, IMO. It's sounds a bit more like, "Well, but you can't prove anything."

 

Right... so are the old gods and the forgotten ones the same people?

 

No, but there are parallels between the Old Gods and the gods of the Elven Pantheon.

 

Old Gods:

• Dumat, the Dragon of Silence and the archdemon of the First Blight
• Zazikel, the Dragon of Chaos and the archdemon of the Second Blight
• Toth, the Dragon of Fire and the archdemon of the Third Blight
• Andoral, the Dragon of Slaves and the archdemon of the Fourth Blight
• Urthemiel, the Dragon of Beauty and the archdemon of the Fifth Blight
• Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery
• Lusacan, the Dragon of Night

Elven Pantheon:

• Elgar'nan, God of Vengeance
• Mythal: the Great Protector
• Falon'Din: Friend of the Dead, the Guide
• Dirthamen, Keeper of Secrets
• Sylaise, the Hearthkeeper
• June, God of the Craft
• Ghilan'nan, Mother of Halla
• Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf

The Forgotten Ones:

• Anaris
• Geldauran
• Daern'thal
• Fen'Harel

From Fen'Harel's codex entry: "Only in dreams do we hear whispered the names of Geldauran and Daern'thal and Anaris, for they are the Forgotten Ones, the gods of terror and malice, spite and pestilence. In ancient times, only Fen'Harel could walk without fear among both our gods and the Forgotten Ones, for although he is kin to the gods of the People, the Forgotten Ones knew of his cunning ways and saw him as one of their own."

 

edited because I forgot Dirthamen.

Modifié par Monica21, 31 janvier 2015 - 12:34 .

[Ahalvern]

Yeah, Solas is a little too quick to say it, IMO. It's sounds a bit more like, "Well, but you can't prove anything."

 

Adding one more voice to those who believe Solas is BS'ing when he says "Nothing in any lore connects the elven gods to the old gods who became Archdemons."

 

First, he is correct in a clever literal sense. Yep, there is nothing anyone knows of in any lore, written or otherwise that connects them both. So in that case he's right. Also he seemed very passionate when declaring this. Something is amiss, Solas doesn't lose his cool easily.

 

Also, "Solas doesn't lie" is a belief that is not correct. He withholds information yes, but there are cases where he blatantly lies. The intro for example, when you hear Corypheus' voice while descending down to the breach, Cassandra asks who we are hearing and Solas replies "At a guess? The person who created the breach."

 

"At a guess" my ass Solas. You know who created the breach. And I don't believe the theory that he didn't discover who had his orb until all of us discovered as well. Flemeth clearly tells Solas he shouldn't have given his orb to Corypheus and Solas doesn't deny it or acts unknowing, he knew who was getting his orb.

 

All this to say I'm still very confused about all of the information and conflicting information we got regarding to the Ancient lore in this game. There's one thing to consider though when it comes to "Grey Wardens are wrong" theory, if you hear Solas's and Blackwall's early banters, Solas goes on about Grey Wardens' mission to kill the Archdemons as they rise, and asks Blackwall if he thinks the blights will be all over when all Archdemons are slain. Blackwall says "Right... where are you going with this?" and Solas replies, "Nowhere. I hope you are correct." He sounds very sincere throghout. Now that creates a leak in Grey Wardens are completely wrong theory.

 

I believe what freaks Solas out is that the Wardens are attempting to find and kill the Old Gods BEFORE they become Archdemons. There's no problem with slaying them after they rise as Archdemons is Solas' belief if I'm inferring correctly from that particular banter.

 

So... what does this signify? Why doesn't Solas want them found before they become corrupted? It's all very interesting and unsurprisingly mindboggling.

 

If you read all of this congrats because I didn't mean to go on for this long.

[Koneko Koji]

Well the mother was awakened by the Architect. The architect himself was confirmed to be a Magister like Cory

 

With that said, what the broodmother did say fits into the Codex. She kept on nagging about how she wanted to hear the song again.

 

Where was this confirmed?

[Monica21]

Where was this confirmed?

Pretty sure Gaider confirmed it in tumblr or Twitter, but on my phone and can't find the source. There's a thread somewhere too.

[Koneko Koji]

I believe what freaks Solas out is that the Wardens are attempting to find and kill the Old Gods BEFORE they become Archdemons. There's no problem with slaying them after they rise as Archdemons is Solas' belief if I'm inferring correctly from that particular banter.

 

So... what does this signify? Why doesn't Solas want them found before they become corrupted? It's all very interesting and unsurprisingly mindboggling.

 

If you read all of this congrats because I didn't mean to go on for this long.

 

At a guess - if the Wardens approach the Old Gods, the taint in the blood will corrupt them and create the Arch Demon; they MIGHT be able to kill it straight off - but more likely, they'd get swamped with a swarm of Darkspawn, get over run and then hey presto - another Blight!

[Ahalvern]

At a guess - if the Wardens approach the Old Gods, the taint in the blood will corrupt them and create the Arch Demon; they MIGHT be able to kill it straight off - but more likely, they'd get swamped with a swarm of Darkspawn, get over run and then hey presto - another Blight!

 

Hm... that is a possibility, but it still doesn't explain why Solas freaks out this much over it. He doesn't even mention that possibility even though it's sensible. "What if you corrupt them with the taint within you and unleash another blight"? It seems he's concerned about something else.

[Ashagar]

Pretty sure Gaider confirmed it in tumblr or Twitter, but on my phone and can't find the source. There's a thread somewhere too.

 

Found part of a interview on shadow graves between Lena Drakes and David Gaider where he said that yes the architect was the same type of character as Corypheus after being asked if he was a former Magister like Corypheus but that he wasn't around anymore if you killed him so apparently he don't have the immorality trick that Corypheus does.

[Koneko Koji]

Hm... that is a possibility, but it still doesn't explain why Solas freaks out this much over it. He doesn't even mention that possibility even though it's sensible. "What if you corrupt them with the taint within you and unleash another blight"? It seems he's concerned about something else.

 

That is true - but then, I do wonder how much of Solas is genuine, and how much is *MAN OF MYSTERY!!!* with his attitude.

Still, I have to wonder because his attitude towards Morrigan wasn't exactly sparkling, and she's trying to preserve the old ways.

 

I'm thinking that these 'people' who need him are where he sends Abalas et al to; so I'm wondering just how many ancient elves are left.

[Koneko Koji]

Found part of a interview on shadow graves between Lena Drakes and David Gaider where he said that yes the architect was the same type of character as Corypheus after being asked if he was a former Magister like Corypheus but that he wasn't around anymore if you killed him so apparently he don't have the immorality trick that Corypheus does.

 

That right there is a bit of a get out clause - "same TYPE of character" - so they could go either way with him.

[Monica21]

That is true - but then, I do wonder how much of Solas is genuine, and how much is *MAN OF MYSTERY!!!* with his attitude.
Still, I have to wonder because his attitude towards Morrigan wasn't exactly sparkling, and she's trying to preserve the old ways.

I'm thinking that these 'people' who need him are where he sends Abalas et al to; so I'm wondering just how many ancient elves are left.

I'm not convinced that Morrigan knows any more about the old ways than the Dalish do, so if I were Solas I'd be unhappy too. The Well is not hers to play with.

[Ahalvern]

Yeah I can't blame Solas for not trusting Morrigan. I mean we know from the previous games that she changed, and that she seems genuine when she states she wants to use it for good; but "good" can mean different things to different people.

 

Solas is already iffy about the well's powers and price, and he may well be right that she has her own agenda even though she cares for the Old Magic of the world as she puts it. Wanting to have power doesn't necessarily a bad person make.

[X Equestris]

The question is why are the Old Gods, called "Old"? Did they rule at a time before documented time?

For one thing, they precede widespread worship of the Maker. They are also very likely to be incredibly old chronologically.

[Kaibe]

Alright, nvm.

[Ashagar]

For one thing, they precede widespread worship of the Maker. They are also very likely to be incredibly old chronologically.

 

That would likely have something to do with it given that the maker was a ancient god worshiped only by the Tevinter people and the tribes that came before them while the old gods were the state religion of the Tevinter Imperium itself with great shrines, temples and monuments built to them all over Thadas wherever the rule of the imperium spread.

 

I am sure before andraste started preaching about him and raising her rebellion most non-tevinter humans who weren't slaves in the Tevinter heartland had likely never heard of the maker but had heard of the old gods because of their public status as the state religion.

[earymir]

OP forgot Andruil also - 9 elven gods, 7 old gods.

Some interesting theories abound in BSN. I'm a fan of 7 creators being Old Gods, 2 being "out of the loop" so to speak - Fen'Harel and one more - either Mythal or the "betrayer", whoever that is. There are motivations for a few of them, including Falon'Din and Andruil (who were both stopped by Mythal for doing crazy shiz).

I'm not sure if there's much evidence for this, but I thought of another possibility... what if the 7 magisters were the equivalent of Mythal/Flemeth? They were the high priests of the Old Gods, so maybe that power came from being connected to the Old Gods. Perhaps the Archdemons hold some of the power (formerly the dragons), some of the power is behind the eluvians, and some power was alway floating around like a "wisp" tilll they found the magisters. Perhaps when Dumat the archdemon was slain, the wisp was slain as well, hence Corypheus losing some of his power and needing the Orb.

Perhaps the Architect was the Old God equivalent of June, whichever old god that was. June seemed to be pretty reasonable from what we've seen so far. It wouldn't be totally out of character.

Wild speculation of course. There are so many loose threads and possbilities. I do think Old Gods = Creators though, and Old Gods ended up becoming Archdemons once blighted.

The Flemeth/Andraste thread has some cool ideas too!

[LaughingBanana]

I said this somewhere else before: if Solas knows what is going to happen if the Grey Warden manage to defeat all the tainted Old Gods and he deliberately elects not to share it with the order, then he has no rights whatsoever criticizing Grey Warden trying to kill all of them, since the Order does what it does with the sole intention of trying to save the world. If that intention led to the ruination of the world and Solas knows about it and keep quiet, he has no right to be fussing and act like a petulant child.

 

And don't give me the "he can't share his information because it might compromise his identity" crap; if he wants to I am sure he can impart that knowledge without the Grey Warden or the Inquisition knowing it's from him; after all, he's the one practically responsible for all the things happening in the Inquisition and yet he kept a poker face throughout--even when fighting Corypheus--and none of them, not even Corypheus himself, were none the wiser.

[Kantr]

There are hints in the game that there is an eighth old god who's name has been stricken from the record.

[MACharlie1]

Whose symbol (a serpent Dragon) tends to appear next to statues of the Dread Wolf and is part of Kirkwalls heraldry - which is the symbol of rebellion.

Have I said too much?

[LadyCass]

Some observations of my own...

 

In Andruil's codex entry, it goes on about how she hunted in the abyss, also known as the Void and the home of the Forgotten Ones. This drove her absolutely crazy and Mythal had to intervene and take away her knowledge of how to get there in order to stop her going darkside, essentially.

 

 

One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss. Yet even a god should not linger there, and each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning.

 

Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, and the other gods became fearful Andruil would hunt them in turn. So Mythal spread rumors of a monstrous creature and took the form of a great serpent, waiting for Andruil at the base of a mountain.

 

When Andruil came, Mythal sprang on the hunter. They fought for three day and nights, Andruil slashing deep gouges in the serpent's hide. But Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void. After this, the great hunter could never make her way back to the abyss, and peace returned.

 

—Translated from ancient elven found in the Arbor Wilds, source unverified

 

Interestingly, there is also a note that mentions that The Empty Ones, believed that "The Void" was the place from which the Blight originated.

 

We know that in the stories, Fen'Harel tricked the Forgotten Ones into returning to the abyss and then locked them away from the world. 

 

If we take the leap that the Old Gods are in fact the Forgotten Ones, and that the dragons which become archdemons are corrupted Old Gods... then logically the darkspawn must enter the abyss, or the Void, in order to find an Old God and raise it as an archdemon. This is the same place that entering too often drove Andruil mad.

 

I also think it's interesting that when she put on the armour made of the Void, everyone forgot her true face. This is a nice connection to the name - The Forgotten Ones. She howled things "meant to be forgotten", and the weapons of the Void became a plague on her lands.

 

Of course, while there are some interesting parallels, we are left with even more questions. What is the Void? Is it like a dark reflection of the Fade? Simply a place deep underground? Is there a connection between the Deep Roads and the Void?

 

That would explain a lot, both the Blight and the darkspawn's affinity with the Deep Roads, the thaig with red lyrium (which was blighted), the idea that the archdemons come from deep underground. Let's not forget, also, the vision we have in the first game of the archdemon clawing its way out of an enormous chasm.

[Colonelkillabee]

I would love if someone could explain what the hell the void is. It sounds like there's another realm besides the fade and crossroads that exists, and the way there is underground...

[Bad King]

Couldn't 'The Void' be the Black City? According to Corypheus it was never actually golden, and we know that the taint in humans likely derives from it (Andruil's symptoms sound rather taint-like).

[X Equestris]

Couldn't 'The Void' be the Black City? According to Corypheus it was never actually golden, and we know that the taint in humans likely derives from it (Andruil's symptoms sound rather taint-like).

No, I doubt it very much. The Creators are said to be sealed away in somewhere related to the Beyond(the Fade), and according to World of Thedas, the elves believed their gods were related to the "Eternal City". The Void is opposite. Also, the Golden City was verifiably golden before the Magisters. It may have been black on the inside, but it was definitely gold on the exterior.

[Bad King]

No, I doubt it very much. The Creators are said to be sealed away in somewhere related to the Beyond(the Fade), and according to World of Thedas, the elves believed their gods were related to the "Eternal City". The Void is opposite. Also, the Golden City was verifiably golden before the Magisters. It may have been black on the inside, but it was definitely gold on the exterior.

 

Can you give me the source for the Black City being confirmed golden before the Magisters? I don't remember seeing it in-game, so it would be an interesting read (or is it in TWoT?).