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[Eliastion]

Can you give me the source for the Black City being confirmed golden before the Magisters? I don't remember seeing it in-game, so it would be an interesting read (or is it in TWoT?).

Perhaps there are better sources - but if Cory was shocked that it was not golden, that would mean that they actually expected it to be golden. Which implies that it WAS golden from the outside, but then they go in and... wooops, nope, all-black, sorry.

Why would they expect it to be golden if it always looked black from the Fade?

[MACharlie1]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this but...remember how Solas says nothing connects his people to the Old Gods? Found another constellation (in addition to the serpent, 8th Old God) that might connect it.

 

You see, after looking at Skyhold I noticed that the place is LITTERED with Owls. I remember there being an Owl constellation. Tenebrium - who is represented in Old Gods as Lusacan - an Old God that has yet to be awakened. 

The constellation also mentions that Falon'Din is associated with an Owl. Skyhold = temple to Falon'Din? Falon'Din = Lusacan? Solas = doesn't want to murder Mythal's son? 

[Bad King]

Perhaps there are better sources - but if Cory was shocked that it was not golden, that would mean that they actually expected it to be golden. Which implies that it WAS golden from the outside, but then they go in and... wooops, nope, all-black, sorry.

Why would they expect it to be golden if it always looked black from the Fade?

 

Good point - didn't think of that. In that case, perhaps red lyrium is an earlier source of the taint and not the Golden City which might link 'The Void' and the Forgotten Ones to red lyrium. Perhaps Andruil's void armour was akin to Samson's red lyrium armour, and his insanity came from the red lyrium?

[DontWakeTheBear]

OP forgot Andruil also - 9 elven gods, 7 old gods.

Some interesting theories abound in BSN. I'm a fan of 7 creators being Old Gods, 2 being "out of the loop" so to speak - Fen'Harel and one more - either Mythal or the "betrayer", whoever that is. There are motivations for a few of them, including Falon'Din and Andruil (who were both stopped by Mythal for doing crazy shiz).

I'm not sure if there's much evidence for this, but I thought of another possibility... what if the 7 magisters were the equivalent of Mythal/Flemeth? They were the high priests of the Old Gods, so maybe that power came from being connected to the Old Gods. Perhaps the Archdemons hold some of the power (formerly the dragons), some of the power is behind the eluvians, and some power was alway floating around like a "wisp" tilll they found the magisters. Perhaps when Dumat the archdemon was slain, the wisp was slain as well, hence Corypheus losing some of his power and needing the Orb.

Perhaps the Architect was the Old God equivalent of June, whichever old god that was. June seemed to be pretty reasonable from what we've seen so far. It wouldn't be totally out of character.

Wild speculation of course. There are so many loose threads and possbilities. I do think Old Gods = Creators though, and Old Gods ended up becoming Archdemons once blighted.

The Flemeth/Andraste thread has some cool ideas too!

With the 7/9 it's easy to explain: We know the location's of two of the nine as Fen'harel is Solas and Mythal was killed before the fall of Arlathan and her essence wandered the land until it found Flemeth (as told by Flemeth). Which meant that 7 were unaccounted for, the same number as the Old Gods. My personal theory is:

Elgar'nan-Dumat

Falon'Din-Lusacan

Dirthamen-Razikale

Andruil-Andoral (notice the similar names? and read the entry on Andruil)

Sylaise-Toth

June-Urthemiel

Ghilan'nan- Zazikel

[Richiesdisplayname]

Found part of a interview on shadow graves between Lena Drakes and David Gaider where he said that yes the architect was the same type of character as Corypheus after being asked if he was a former Magister like Corypheus but that he wasn't around anymore if you killed him so apparently he don't have the immorality trick that Corypheus does.

Actually, I always assumed Cory's immortality was like that of an arch demon. If this is the case, then Archie would have it too. Remember, Archie was killed by a Grey Warden. Cory was not.

[Caddius]

Perhaps there are better sources - but if Cory was shocked that it was not golden, that would mean that they actually expected it to be golden. Which implies that it WAS golden from the outside, but then they go in and... wooops, nope, all-black, sorry.

Why would they expect it to be golden if it always looked black from the Fade?

I believe Word of Gaider confirmed that the Golden City looked golden before the Magisters went in. Maybe they broke the illusion spell? Maybe they cracked the prison enough that it covered the city completely?

[Koneko Koji]

I believe Word of Gaider confirmed that the Golden City looked golden before the Magisters went in. Maybe they broke the illusion spell? Maybe they cracked the prison enough that it covered the city completely?

 

Or maybe things in the Fade look as people expect and are manipulated in dreams - but the reality is much different; something we know from the surprise by Inky and co. after Adamant when they step into the Fade and exclaim how different it all looks!

[Caddius]

Or maybe things in the Fade look as people expect and are manipulated in dreams - but the reality is much different; something we know from the surprise by Inky and co. after Adamant when they step into the Fade and exclaim how different it all looks!

Interesting idea.

That would then beg the question as to why everyone was picturing the Golden City as Golden beforehand. Or whether there was once a glorious city reflected in the Fade (*cough*Arlathan*cough*) that got enough of the good mojo to keep shining pretty even when the Taint was shoved inside it for containment, until the Magisters made the Taint oh so very popular.

I'm also curious as to how people knew about the ritual and the Magisters. You'd think they'd keep that kind of thing quiet to prevent other Magisters from messing up the ritual. I mean, all of the Magisters kept their identities secret from one another and used cool code names, for Pete's sake.

[Eliastion]

(...)

I'm also curious as to how people knew about the ritual and the Magisters. You'd think they'd keep that kind of thing quiet to prevent other Magisters from messing up the ritual. I mean, all of the Magisters kept their identities secret from one another and used cool code names, for Pete's sake.

This is somewhat muddy as sometimes we are told that the ritual was a secret and at other times it was apparently a culmination of great national effort, something comparable to moon landing perhaps...

[Vuko]

Regarding Creators=Old Gods theory, while it's really interesting and pretty logical, in historical context it loses a lot of credibility. Time inconsistency is the biggest issue here.

 

Old Gods ruled Thedas prior to the Veil creation, Myth of Falon'Din and Dirthamen contradicts hypothesis that the Veil was created along with entrapment of elven pantheon. Also ancient elves practiced Uthenera, which would be impossible without physical world and the fade being separated.

 

Other than that Dumat contacted Thalsian around 600 years before Tevinter Declared war on elves. From what i've understood elven deities were still around by that time. This would imply that Creators started their adequate cults among humans, using different names and domains than among elves. This doesn't make any sense.

 

Old Gods were able to communicate with human mages despite being imprisoned, if they are in fact elven deities why didn't they contacted elves instead? They had fanatically dedicated subjects on their disposal, yet picked humans over them. Not much sense either.

[Ranadiel Marius]

This is somewhat muddy as sometimes we are told that the ritual was a secret and at other times it was apparently a culmination of great national effort, something comparable to moon landing perhaps...

The few contemporary accounts we have on the matter are the ones that put it as being a big secret. So I am inclined to believe it was a secret.....then somehow people figured it out and it became a celebrated point of pride. Considering the details in one of the codexes, I am inclined to believe that one of the Magisters made it back and spilled his guts in TI. No idea of what happened to that Magister afterwards though.

[Urizen]

Regarding Creators=Old Gods theory, while it's really interesting and pretty logical, in historical context it loses a lot of credibility. Time inconsistency is the biggest issue here.

 

Old Gods ruled Thedas prior to the Veil creation, Myth of Falon'Din and Dirthamen contradicts hypothesis that the Veil was created along with entrapment of elven pantheon. Also ancient elves practiced Uthenera, which would be impossible without physical world and the fade being separated.

 

Other than that Dumat contacted Thalsian around 600 years before Tevinter Declared war on elves. From what i've understood elven deities were still around by that time. This would imply that Creators started their adequate cults among humans, using different names and domains than among elves. This doesn't make any sense.

 

Old Gods were able to communicate with human mages despite being imprisoned, if they are in fact elven deities why didn't they contacted elves instead? They had fanatically dedicated subjects on their disposal, yet picked humans over them. Not much sense either.

 

Regarding Uthenera: It is actually a presumption that the elves of old retreated to the beyond for their endless sleep, because that is what the dalish believe. The dalish state more than once that a lot of the old lore is lost. It is actually also quite possible that they retreated into the same realm the eluvians link to.

 

Again, a lot of the elven history of old is lost. Maybe the creators at the time were no longer worshipped by the numbers they were used to and looked to others for that purpose. And seeing as how Flemeth/Mythal is able to turn into a dragon at will, maybe that´s exactly what the creators did, revealing themselves as dragons to the humans and taking on new domains. Flemeth/Mythal always talks about betrayal and the more I think of it, the more I believe she is referring to the betrayal of her fellow creators.

 

It actually makes sense if we assume the first paragraph to be true. But only then.

[Koneko Koji]

Flemeth/Mythal always talks about betrayal and the more I think of it, the more I believe she is referring to the betrayal of her fellow creators.

 

 

 

I used to think that until Abalas revealed that she'd been murdered - I'm pretty sure now that her mentioned "betrayal" is by whoever killed her.

[Vuko]

Regarding Uthenera: It is actually a presumption that the elves of old retreated to the beyond for their endless sleep, because that is what the dalish believe. The dalish state more than once that a lot of the old lore is lost. It is actually also quite possible that they retreated into the same realm the eluvians link to.

 

Again, a lot of the elven history of old is lost. Maybe the creators at the time were no longer worshipped by the numbers they were used to and looked to others for that purpose. And seeing as how Flemeth/Mythal is able to turn into a dragon at will, maybe that´s exactly what the creators did, revealing themselves as dragons to the humans and taking on new domains. Flemeth/Mythal always talks about betrayal and the more I think of it, the more I believe she is referring to the betrayal of her fellow creators.

 

Endless sleep in realm different than the Fade? Ummm, on what presumption? The Fade and Uthenera mesh together perfectly, Fade - Dreamers - Endless Sleep. Solas spent at least thousand years in Uthenera, he's a Dreamer and expert on the Fade. Falon'Din was guiding the "dead" through the Fade, except ancient elves didn't die, they were Dreamers who went into Uthenera and there's much more of it. If everything is just misinterpretation we may as well assume that everything we know is false.

 

Creators trying to extend their cults crossed my mind, after all they waged wars between each other for believers [Falon'Din's case]. But no matter how much i try, i cannot wrap my head around it.

 

-If Creators were desperate enough to fight each other for followers, it would be logical to keep their intentions of converting humans in secret from each other, right? That explains not using their elven names or domains. Problem here is that cult of the Old Gods started relatively at the same time, so secrecy is pointless.

-First one to contact humans was Dumat, it's pure speculation but Silentir links Dumat with Mythal. Ok, number is not a big deal, Dirthamen and Falon'Din could be one entity, if we assume one refers to physical body and other to his Fade-ego. Bigger problem is the fact that Mythal was murdered, which i assume is the event that pushed Fen'Harel to imprisoning other gods. 

-As i mentioned, Old Gods were still able to communicate with humans but not with elves, given how devoted were ancient elves (Abelas for example) i find it hard to believe they chose humans to do their bidding, beside how did they do it despite being dead/imprisoned?

[Koneko Koji]

Endless sleep in realm different than the Fade? Ummm, on what presumption? The Fade and Uthenera mesh together perfectly, Fade - Dreamers - Endless Sleep. Solas spent at least thousand years in Uthenera, he's a Dreamer and expert on the Fade. Falon'Din was guiding the "dead" through the Fade, except ancient elves didn't die, they were Dreamers who went into Uthenera and there's much more of it. If everything is just misinterpretation we may as well assume that everything we know is false.

 

Creators trying to extend their cults crossed my mind, after all they waged wars between each other for believers [Falon'Din's case]. But no matter how much i try, i cannot wrap my head around it.

 

-If Creators were desperate enough to fight each other for followers, it would be logical to keep their intentions of converting humans in secret from each other, right? That explains not using their elven names or domains. Problem here is that cult of the Old Gods started relatively at the same time, so secrecy is pointless.

-First one to contact humans was Dumat, it's pure speculation but Silentir links Dumat with Mythal. Ok, number is not a big deal, Dirthamen and Falon'Din could be one entity, if we assume one refers to physical body and other to his Fade-ego. Bigger problem is the fact that Mythal was murdered, which i assume is the event that pushed Fen'Harel to imprisoning other gods. 

-As i mentioned, Old Gods were still able to communicate with humans but not with elves, given how devoted were ancient elves (Abelas for example) i find it hard to believe they chose humans to do their bidding, beside how did they do it despite being dead/imprisoned?

 

Abalas says that the elves were destroyed from within - so basically a civil war, which would jive with the idea that some of the deities were reaching out to the humans, and the others wanted to stop them; this would also make sense with the idea of Dumat and Mythal being linked, because if Mythal was on the side of those reaching out - it's understandable that she would be a prime target for the other group.