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[Aravasia]

Taken from The World of Thedas:

-203 Ancient: Coordinating a massive army from Thedas, the Grey Wardens defeat the Archdemon Dumat at the Battle of the Silent Plains, ending the First Blight.

-203 Ancient: The prophet Andraste is born in Ferelden.

 

It may just be a huge coincidence, but it is rather compelling towards Andraste being an Old God Baby. Then there was the codex you mentioned about Andraste having only daughters. It is possible that the Old God soul has been passed on from daughter to daughter until reaching Flemeth.

Spoiler

Whom now intends for the soul to be passed on to Morrigan, according to the mined developer notes.

Also meaning that Mythal is Dumat, and likely that each of the rest of the Elven Pantheon corresponds to an Old God, perhaps with the exception of Solas, since he is the one who 'sealed them away'. 

 

Additionally, there is some similar iconography associated with the two figures:

Spoiler

-notice the headpiece. Though, Meredith wears the same thing. I am guessing her motivation was to mirror Andraste, but why Flemeth wears it may just be another small, well tiny perhaps, hint of the relationship between the two. 

 

Then there's also this:

Spoiler

Taken in the final battle from a user on Reddit: http://www.reddit.co...f_sacred_ashes/

 

Mythal's mosiac in the Temple of Sacred Ashes, as in, where Andraste's ashes were, and the only mosiac in the entire temple. I honestly can't think of a rational explanation to this, other than there being some type of relationship between the two.

 

Edit: Adding this so no one has to trudge through my other posts to find this. The astrarium codex entry linking Mythal and Dumat:

Spoiler

Referred to as "Silence" in the common parlance, the constellation Silentir is historically attributed to Dumat, the Old God of Silence and leader of the ancient Tevinter pantheon. The depiction of the constellation, however, is often debated. Some depict a dragon in flight, while others (also the most common modern depictions) show a man carrying a horn and a wand. Some scholars believe these represented scales, which would point to this constellation being a supplantation of the elven Mythal, but nothing indicates this to be more than speculation.

 

--From A Study of Thedosian Astronomy by Sister Oran Petrarchius

http://dragonage.wik...ation:_Silentir

[Avejajed]

Taken from The World of Thedas:
-203 Ancient: Coordinating a massive army from Thedas, the Grey Wardens defeat the Archdemon Dumat at the Battle of the Silent Plains, ending the First Blight.
-203 Ancient: The prophet Andraste is born in Ferelden.

It may just be a huge coincidence, but it is rather compelling towards Andraste being an Old God Baby. Then there was the codex you mentioned about Andraste having only daughters. It is possible that the Old God soul has been passed on from daughter to daughter until reaching Flemeth.

Spoiler

Whom now intends for the soul to be passed on to Morrigan, according to the mined developer notes.

Also meaning that Mythal is Dumat, and likely that each of the rest of the Elven Pantheon corresponds to an Old God, perhaps with the exception of Solas, since he is the one who 'sealed them away'.

Additionally, there is some similar iconography associated with the two figures:

Spoiler

-notice the headpiece. Though, Meredith wears the same thing. I am guessing her motivation was to mirror Andraste, but why Flemeth wears it may just be another small, well tiny perhaps, hint of the relationship between the two.

Then there's also this:

Spoiler

Taken in the final battle from a user on Reddit: http://www.reddit.co...f_sacred_ashes/

Mythal's mosiac in the Temple of Sacred Ashes, as in, where Andraste's ashes were, and the only mosiac in the entire temple. I honestly can't think of a rational explanation to this, other than there being some type of relationship between the two.

I was already generally on board this theory train but you raised points that even more firmly solidify the connection for me.

Thats ignoring, for now, the Solas as Shartan theory, which has interesting points as well.

I am also on board with the old gods and the Pantheon being..connected. The astrariums point to this in any case, even if that's not super solid proof.

Though I think Fen'Harel is one of them and Gilain'ain is the who is not.

[Aravasia]

I was already generally on board this theory train but you raised points that even more firmly solidify the connection for me.

Thats ignoring, for now, the Solas as Shartan theory, which has interesting points as well.

I am also on board with the old gods and the Pantheon being..connected. The astrariums point to this in any case, even if that's not super solid proof.

Though I think Fen'Harel is one of them and Gilain'ain is the who is not.

Yes, come over to the dark side.

 

I think it's pretty compelling so far. We don't have enough evidence to solidify the theory yet, but it is certainly a possibility. There is definitely less evidence yet towards the other members of the Pantheon being Old Gods, I mostly made the connection just based off a Mythal being one, and as you mentioned, the astrariums. And, interesting theory about Fen'Harel and Ghilain'ain. I had thought her to be Urthemiel before, but which Old God do you believe Solas is? 

 

Also, Solas as Shartan? Where is that History channel guy meme when I need it. 

 

Edit: Ah, found it.

[Avejajed]

Dumat-Mythal
Lusacan- Falon'Din
Toth-Sylaise
Razikale-Dirthamen
Zazikel-(Chaos)
Urthemeil-(Beauty)
Andoral-(Slaves)

Possible 8th unknown god- "Draconis"-

Now we have left June, Elgar'nan, Andruil, Fen'harel and Gilain'ain.

June=Craft
Elgar'nan=Vengeance
Andruil=Hunt (Sacrifice)
Fen'Harel=Rebellion
Gilain'ain=Halla

I think we can leave Gilain'ain off the list because she is not original. She was made. I also personally think she was insane and may have created the Qunari out of dragons and elven slaves but that's another theory.

I'm less sure of the others. A case could be made for either Andruil or Fen'Harel to be Andoral. She liked slaves, he (may have) led a rebellion of them.

June could be Urthemeil, if you connect crafting to beauty, I suppose.

I think you could even make an argument that Dumat is Elgar'nan and the 8th, Draconis, is Mythal, given her dragon form.

I don't know!

We could leave Fen'Harel off, make Zazikel = Elgar'nan, Andruil = Andoral and June = Urthemeil.

Still...

[Ranadiel Marius]

 

 

Then there's also this:

Spoiler

Taken in the final battle from a user on Reddit: http://www.reddit.co...f_sacred_ashes/

 

Mythal's mosiac in the Temple of Sacred Ashes, as in, where Andraste's ashes were, and the only mosiac in the entire temple. I honestly can't think of a rational explanation to this, other than there being some type of relationship between the two.

If you note, the mosaic is hidden underneath the stone tiling and is only visible because the stones have been broken off right above it. That to me implies that the Temple of Sacred Ashes is just like Skyhold. It is an ancient elven temple that was remodeled by humans that came afterwards hiding its true origin underneath the new walls and paint. That doesn't mean that there has to be a connection between Mythal and Andraste (mind you I am open to the possibility, I just don't think that this is strong evidence towards it). Keep in mind that the temple was used to house her supposed ashes (which we have no way of confirming as hers or not). That means that the temple was given its purpose after her death, so unless this was her hidden hide out, Andraste should not have been able to give the location to the people who hid her ashes. 

 

Now then if we assume that Shartan is Soals (which I am going to be honest I don't care for as it messes up another theory of mine, or at least makes the timing weird), then I suppose that it would make sense for him to provide the location of a hidden elvish temple....although I'm not sure why he would give a location to house her ashes since I can't imagine he has a strong attachment to them since this would be Mythal's second or third body...

[Aravasia]

Dumat-Mythal
Lusacan- Falon'Din
Toth-Sylaise
Razikale-Dirthamen
Zazikel-(Chaos)
Urthemeil-(Beauty)
Andoral-(Slaves)

Possible 8th unknown god- "Draconis"-

Now we have left June, Elgar'nan, Andruil, Fen'harel and Gilain'ain.

June=Craft
Elgar'nan=Vengeance
Andruil=Hunt (Sacrifice)
Fen'Harel=Rebellion
Gilain'ain=Halla

I think we can leave Gilain'ain off the list because she is not original. She was made. I also personally think she was insane and may have created the Qunari out of dragons and elven slaves but that's another theory.

I'm less sure of the others. A case could be made for either Andruil or Fen'Harel to be Andoral. She liked slaves, he (may have) led a rebellion of them.

June could be Urthemeil, if you connect crafting to beauty, I suppose.

I think you could even make an argument that Dumat is Elgar'nan and the 8th, Draconis, is Mythal, given her dragon form.

I don't know!

We could leave Fen'Harel off, make Zazikel = Elgar'nan, Andruil = Andoral and June = Urthemeil.

Still...

I definitely agree about Toth = Sylaise, both are associated with fire, so this would be the most simple connection. I have also considered Lusacan = Falon'Din, as night is the time you dream, and is somewhat related to death or the fade, though, this is a more loose connection. Another possibility is that Lusacan = Elgar'nan, because of the association with night, and how, in his legend, Elgar'nan 'defeated the sun and cast a shadow over the land', aka it was always night, until Mythal convinced him to make a truce.

 

I think it is less likely for Fen'Harel to be Zazikel or Andoral, as they were slayed in the second and fourth blights, and (so far as we know) were not made into Old God Babies, so likely perished. What I think is more likely is that Zazikel is a possibility for Elgar'nan as well. He's known to have quite a temper, and for being a little unstable, so chaos would fit. This would also have made him rise secondly after Mythal, fitting for an all-father. Other possibilities are Falon'Din, Ghilan'nain, or Andruil. Falon'Din for the wars he caused, Ghilan'nain because of the terror her creatures apparently brought, and Andruil for the codex we got about her descents into madness. We know so little about June, so I suppose he could fit as well. 

 

Andoral I believe would best fit either Andruil, June, or Falon'Din as well. Andruil because she supposedly sacrificed her people (maybe blood magic?) I'm guessing this would require slaves. There was also a codex entry for her in the Temple of Mythal of her people pleading to her, much in the way slaves would, (or something like that, I can't quite remember.) Plus, the similarity in the name, I suppose. Falon'Din, again for the wars he began to gather more worshipers, so maybe worshipers = slaves? And again, June, because we know so little. Poor June.

 

And Urthemiel, I believe could either be June or Ghilan'nain. June, for the reason you stated, or Ghilan'nain for that Hallas are often described as beautiful creatures, and I believe her legend states her as especially beautiful, but I am not sure on that. 

 

If it wasn't for the association between Mythal and Dumat, I would have thought that Dirthamen would be the God of Silence, relating to secrets fairly well. Though, this would have made him the head of the Gods, and I agree that that position is better reserved for Mythal. So, I believe that Dirthamen = Razikale is the next most likely connection. Something else that crossed my mind, is that perhaps Dirthamen and Falon'din are one Old God, instead of two. The two are described as brothers, but closer than any label that could be attached, not lovers, but also referred to as 'twin souls.' This could mean that they are the same being, or perhaps they are one Old God soul, split into two forms when they are elves, but turn into one Dragon. It could also be that one is the body vessel for another. In the same way that Flemeth is a vessel for Mythal, but both beings are present as somewhat separate entities from each other, and share a form. 

 

Another possibility (and sorry for all of these) is that Falon'Din is, I guess you would say, 'possessing' Dirthamen in some way. Think of the possession cases we've had in the game so far, such as Connor. He and the demon were one entity on the physical side of the world, but when the player enters the fade, we can see both Connor and the demon as separate entities. So perhaps Falon'Din is able to exist separately from Dirthamen while in the fade, but 'possesses' Dirthamen in the physical world, where they become only one Dragon.

 

If these two do somehow make up one God, with any of these theories, then, if you include the 'scraped from record' eighth god, there are enough gods for each of the Pantheon to correspond to one. I'd like to believe that any of these solutions are possible. And then, of course, there is the possibility that they are just two separate Old Gods, and that one of the Pantheon is not an Old God (likely Solas or Ghilan'nain, as you said, as they are the outliers.) 

 

So, with this, I would say:

 

Dumat (Silence)- Mythal

Toth (Fire) - Sylaise

Lusacan (Night) - Falon'Din or Elgar'nan

Razikale (Mystery) - Dirthamen or both Dirthamen and Falon'Din

Zazikel (Chaos) - Elgar'nan, June, Falon'Din, Ghilan'nain or Andruil

Andoral (Slaves) - Andruil, June, or Falon' Din

Urthemiel (Beauty) - Ghilan'nain or June

 

And lastly, is the eighth 'unkown' God, I think this God is most likely to be Fen'Harel. Or perhaps Elgar'nan, struck from the record for a possible betrayal of Mythal (husband betraying wife seems to be a common theme with this game.) Like you said, it may even be Mythal, but then this would throw the whole Dumat = Mythal theory. But, I think most likely it is Fen'Harel. I'm going to load up my game and re-read that astrarium's Codex, as I cant quite remember what it was. And then I shall craft a wonderfully long tin foil-hat theory that none shall bother to read. (Again, really sorry for the long post, I do hope someone reads this though, and can either add to or challenge some of these theories.) Mostly, this is all just pure speculation, nothing is certain until game-confirmed, after all, but I love any and all theory crafting either way, and really hope this thread isn't lost. 

[Avejajed]

I definitely agree about Toth = Sylaise, both are associated with fire, so this would be the most simple connection. I have also considered Lusacan = Falon'Din, as night is the time you dream, and is somewhat related to death or the fade, though, this is a more loose connection. Another possibility is that Lusacan = Elgar'nan, because of the association with night, and how, in his legend, Elgar'nan 'defeated the sun and cast a shadow over the land', aka it was always night, until Mythal convinced him to make a truce.

It think it is less likely for Fen'Harel to be Zazikel or Andoral, as they were slayed in the second and fourth blights, and (so far as we know) weren't made into Old God Babies, so likely perished. What I think is more likely is that Zazikel is a possibility for Elgar'nan as well. He's known to have quite a temper and for being a little unstable, so chaos would fit. This would also have made him rise secondly after Mythal, fitting for an all-father. Other possibilities are Falon'Din, Ghilan'nain, or Andruil. Falon'Din for the wars he supposedly caused, Gilan'nain because of the terror her creatures apparently brought, and Andruil for the codex we got about her descents into madness. We know so little about June, so I suppose he could fit as well.

Andoral I believe would best fit either Andruil, June, or Falon'din as well. Andruil because she supposedly sacrificed her people (maybe blood magic?) I'm guessing this would require slaves. There was also a codex entry for her in the Temple of Mythal of her people pleading to her, much in the way slaves would, (or something like that, I can't quite remember.) Plus the similarity in the name, I suppose. Falon'Din, again for the wars he began to gather more worshipers, so maybe worshipers = slaves? And again, June, because we know so little. Poor June.

And Urthemiel I believe could either be June or Ghilan'nain. June, for the reason you stated, or Ghilan'nain for that Hallas are often described as beautiful creatures, and I believe her legend states her as especially beautiful, but I am not sure on that.

If it wasn't for the association between Mythal and Dumat, I would have thought that Dirthamen would be the God of Silence, relating to Secrets fairly well. Though, this would have made him the head of the Gods, and I agree that that position is better reserved for Mythal. So, I believe that Dirthamen = Razikale is the next most likely connection. Something else that crossed my mind is that perhaps Dirthamen and Falon'din are one Old God instead of two. The two are described as brothers, but closer than any label that could attached, not lovers, but also referred to as 'twin souls,' This could mean that they are the same being, or perhaps they are one Old God soul split into two forms when they are elves, but turn into one Dragon. It could also be that one is the body vessel for another. In the same way that Flemeth is a vessel for Mythal, but both beings are present as both the same and separate entities from each other and only form one dragon when she shape-shifts.

Another possibility (and sorry for all of these) is that Falon'din is, I guess you would say, 'possessing' Dirthamen in some way. Think of the possession cases we've had in the game so far, such as Connor. He and the demon acted as one entity on the physical side of the world, but when the player enters the fade, we can see both Connor and the demon as separate entities. So perhaps Falon'din is able to exist separately from Dirthamen while in the fade, but 'possesses' Dirthamen in the physical world, where they become only one Dragon.

If these two do somehow make up one God with any of these theories, then, if you include the 'scraped from record' 8th god, there are enough gods for each of the Pantheon to correspond to one. I'd like to believe that all of these solutions are possible, and then of course there is the possibility that they are just two separate Old Gods, and that one of the Pantheon is not an Old God (likely Solas or Ghilan'nain as you said, as they are the outliers.)

So, with this, I would say:

Dumat (Silence)- Mythal
Toth (Fire) - Sylaise
Lusacan (Night) - Falon'Din or Elgar'nan
Razikale (Mystery) - Dirthamen or both Dirthamen and Falon'Din
Zazikel (Chaos) - Elgar'nan, June, Falon'Din, Ghilan'nain or Andruil
Andoral (Slaves) - Andruil, June, or Falon' Din
Urthemiel (Beauty) - Ghilan'nain or June

And lastly, is the 8th 'unkown' God, I think this God is most likely to be Fen'Harel. Or perhaps Elgar'nan, struck from the record for a possible betrayal of Mythal (husband betraying wife seems to be a common theme with this game.) Like you said, it may even be Mythal, but then this would throw the whole Dumat = Mythal theory. But, I think most likely Fen'Harel. I'm going to load up my game and re-read that astrarium's Codex, as I cant quite remember what it was. And then I shall craft a wonderfully long tin foil-hat theory that none shall bother to read. (Again, really sorry for the long post, I do hope someone reads this though, and can either add to or challenge some of these theories.) Mostly this is all just pure speculation, nothing is certain until game-confirmed, after all, but I love any and all theory crafting either way.

+1 to everything you said, and the only reason I would not consider Fen'Harel for the Draconis constellation is that he already has a constellation in Fenrir.

Of course that could mean less than nothing. Lol.

I also have a theory that perhaps this 8th unknown god is not a part of the Pantheon at all, but is a darker entity entirely. I thought perhaps if the "maker" is all goodness and light, perhaps this unknown god is an unspeakably evil mirror...the "satan" of the story.

After all, there has to be a really big bad for the final game, right? Lol.

Also, please stop by the Solas thread. We are all obsessed with theories so much we started a theory wiki. Come by, I promise it's not all smut and fangirling .

[Aravasia]

If you note, the mosaic is hidden underneath the stone tiling and is only visible because the stones have been broken off right above it. That to me implies that the Temple of Sacred Ashes is just like Skyhold. It is an ancient elven temple that was remodeled by humans that came afterwards hiding its true origin underneath the new walls and paint. That doesn't mean that there has to be a connection between Mythal and Andraste (mind you I am open to the possibility, I just don't think that this is strong evidence towards it). Keep in mind that the temple was used to house her supposed ashes (which we have no way of confirming as hers or not). That means that the temple was given its purpose after her death, so unless this was her hidden hide out, Andraste should not have been able to give the location to the people who hid her ashes. 

 

Now then if we assume that Shartan is Soals (which I am going to be honest I don't care for as it messes up another theory of mine, or at least makes the timing weird), then I suppose that it would make sense for him to provide the location of a hidden elvish temple....although I'm not sure why he would give a location to house her ashes since I can't imagine he has a strong attachment to them since this would be Mythal's second or third body...

 

A possibility, as well. I didn't mean to state my theories as concrete. I really love when someone is able to disprove them and change my view. And you do raise a good point. The temple could just have been re-built over some other elven ruins. I do agree that this alone isn't compelling evidence, but, combined with everything else that has been gathered, I believe it makes a fairly compelling case. I wonder what the original purpose of the building would have been though? It does contain the Mythal mosiac, so it may have been some type of place of worship for her. There is also the matter of whether the building had already been there, or if they re-built it to hold Andraste's ashes, and whether they knew the original purpose of the building. I am inclined to believe that they were indeed Andraste's Ashes, due to the quest in DAO, along with the Guardian more or less confirming it, (but I suppose he could have been lying for one reason or another, who knows?) There is also the matter that this is the place that Corypheus chose to open the breach, not once, but twice. In the beginning, I believed it was because he needed the Divine as a sacrifice specifically, but then, he returns at the end to re-open it. So, I believe that there may have been a deeper purpose of him choosing that location.

[X Equestris]

A possibility, as well. I didn't mean to state my theories as concrete. I really love when someone is able to disprove them and change my view. And you do raise a good point. The temple could just have been re-built over some other elven ruins. I do agree that this alone isn't compelling evidence, but, combined with everything else that has been gathered, I believe it makes a fairly compelling case. I wonder what the original purpose of the building would have been though? It does contain the Mythal mosiac, so it may have been some type of place of worship for her. There is also the matter of whether the building had already been there, or if they re-built it to hold Andraste's ashes, and whether they knew the original purpose of the building. I am inclined to believe that they were indeed Andraste's Ashes, due to the quest in DAO, along with the Guardian more or less confirming it, (but I suppose he could have been lying for one reason or another, who knows?) There is also the matter that this is the place that Corypheus chose to open the breach, not once, but twice. In the beginning, I believed it was because he needed the Divine as a sacrifice specifically, but then, he returns at the end to re-open it. So, I believe that there may have been a deeper purpose of him choosing that location.

Oghren will tell you that the Temple is built on a mountain of lyrium. It's possible that is why he did it there. Another possibility is him simply wanting to make a statement by killing the Divine, and the Conclave was the best opportunity to do that. As for the reopening of the Breach, it's probably because the Veil was already weakened there from the first Breach, making it easier to open it back up.

[Aravasia]

+1 to everything you said, and the only reason I would not consider Fen'Harel for the Draconis constellation is that he already has a constellation in Fenrir.

Of course that could mean less than nothing. Lol.

I also have a theory that perhaps this 8th unknown god is not a part of the Pantheon at all, but is a darker entity entirely. I thought perhaps if the "maker" is all goodness and light, perhaps this unknown god is an unspeakably evil mirror...the "satan" of the story.

After all, there has to be a really big bad for the final game, right? Lol.

Also, please stop by the Solas thread. We are all obsessed with theories so much we started a theory wiki. Come by, I promise it's not all smut and fangirling .

 

More incoming, I loaded up my game and I think I found something(!!!) 

 

So, here I am, going back to the Draconis astrarium, and I finish with a pretty little symbol:

Spoiler

And I thought, hey, I know that symbol! I am in the midst of my current DA2 playthrough, and that symbol is painted on every little nook and cranny of Kirkwall:

Spoiler

Spoiler

So, I scour the wiki in a quest of answers. And I stumble upon this little jewel in the entry for Kirkwall's symbol:

 

 

This stylized knot work representation of a dragon evolved from a symbol of rebellion etched into countless walls during the time when Kirkwall was a center for the Tevinter slave trade. It was an image that catalyzed the slaves who overthrew the ruling magisters, and while the symbol has changed, its meaning has not: Kirkwall is a city unto itself, beholden to no one.

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Kirkwall

 

A dragon evolved from a symbol of rebellion. And the codex entry for Fen'Harel as the God of Rebellion in Mythal's Temple:

http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Rebel_God

 

Well, I can guess why he was struck from the records, the magisters and other gods must have hated him. 

That red symbol is painted over the standard Kirkwall symbol only in the lower parts of the city (Lowtown and Darktown.) Also, recall that Kirkwall had a slave rebellion before it officially became Kirkwall. I can just imagine the implications if slaves rose up in Fen'Harel's name, whether he was leading them or not. I believe that would be enough for them to strike him from record. Either way, I believe this may be more slight evidence towards the Old Gods being the Pantheon, and which God Draconis is. 

 

So, thoughts? Is it true? Am I mad crafting theorist going off of nothing? 

 

Also, I will most definitely stop by later for theory crafting, so long as I am not imposing! I do not want to drive their thread off topic, especially if it's unwelcome, but I do love Solas as a character. He and Morrigan are my favorites of the series.

[Aravasia]

Oghren will tell you that the Temple is built on a mountain of lyrium. It's possible that is why he did it there. Another possibility is him simply wanting to make a statement by killing the Divine, and the Conclave was the best opportunity to do that. As for the reopening of the Breach, it's probably because the Veil was already weakened there from the first Breach, making it easier to open it back up.

These are all excellent points. Before, I had thought that he chose the Divine because he needed some type of 'holy sacrifice.' But, the thought that it makes a statement, as well as caused chaos, is far more likely. The re-opening of the breach there due to the weakened veil makes sense as well. I wonder if Corypheus knew what the temple had originally been? He does call out to Dumat during the last battle, he does this in Legacy as well, though, this was all before he learned that Dumat had been slain. By the time of Inquisition, I imagine he has learned of everything that had happened. It may have just been a desperate attempt, which I think is likely. Even if the theory of Dumat is true, I do not believe Corypheus would have known Dumat still existed. 

[Avejajed]

More incoming, I loaded up my game and I think I found something(!!!) 

 

So, here I am, going back to the Draconis astrarium, and I finish with a pretty little symbol:

Spoiler

And I thought, hey, I know that symbol! I am in the midst of my current DA2 playthrough, and that symbol is painted on every little nook and cranny of Kirkwall:

Spoiler

Spoiler

So, I scour the wiki in a quest of answers. And I stumble upon this little jewel in the entry for Kirkwall's symbol:

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Kirkwall

 

A dragon evolved from a symbol of rebellion. And the codex entry for Fen'Harel as the God of Rebellion in Mythal's Temple:

http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Rebel_God

 

Well, I can guess why he was struck from the records, the magisters and other gods must have hated him. 

That red symbol is painted over the standard Kirkwall symbol only in the lower parts of the city (Lowtown and Darktown.) Also, recall that Kirkwall had a slave rebellion before it officially became Kirkwall. I can just imagine the implications if slaves rose up in Fen'Harel's name, whether he was leading them or not. I believe that would be enough for them to strike him from record. Either way, I believe this may be more slight evidence towards the Old Gods being the Pantheon, and which God Draconis is. 

 

So, thoughts? Is it true? Am I mad crafting theorist going off of nothing? 

 

Also, I will most definitely stop by later for theory crafting, so long as I am not imposing! I do not want to drive their thread off topic, especially if it's unwelcome, but I do love Solas as a character. He and Morrigan are my favorites of the series.

 

And there's more!

 

 

What's that tile look like?

 

[Koneko Koji]

I also have a theory that perhaps this 8th unknown god is not a part of the Pantheon at all, but is a darker entity entirely. I thought perhaps if the "maker" is all goodness and light, perhaps this unknown god is an unspeakably evil mirror...the "satan" of the story.
 

 

This is of course assuming that the Maker IS a God of goodness and light - personally I don't see him that way at ALL!

Takes a married woman as his consort, abandons all his creations because he's disappointed in them - and the doctrine of the Chant says that it has to be spread across the entire world, obliterating all other religions etc - with the Exalted Marches caused by such religious fevor, the Andrastian religion is certainly more aggressive than something like the Qun which teaches patience and togetherness.

The Andrastian way teaches segregation and arrogance (no men allowed in positions of power, Elves and Dwarves have fallen further so are sub-classes etc); the fact that this religion has been so influencial in Fereldan and Orlesian society is the WHOLE reason why the two countries are on the verge of collapse with the Mage and Templar war.

[Aravasia]

And there's more!

 

 

What's that tile look like?

 

 

!!!

Okay, so either Fen'Harel = Draconis, or Bioware is masterfully trolling. DA2 really makes a point of hitting you over the head with that symbol, it is honestly everywhere. Seeing references like this in past game gives me hope that Bioware does have grand over-all plot that they intend to carry out. 

 

Though, admittedly, I do really like that idea of Draconis being some anti-maker big-bad satanic figure.  

[Aravasia]

This is of course assuming that the Maker IS a God of goodness and light - personally I don't see him that way at ALL!

Takes a married woman as his consort, abandons all his creations because he's disappointed in them - and the doctrine of the Chant says that it has to be spread across the entire world, obliterating all other religions etc - with the Exalted Marches caused by such religious fevor, the Andrastian religion is certainly more aggressive than something like the Qun which teaches patience and togetherness.

The Andrastian way teaches segregation and arrogance (no men allowed in positions of power, Elves and Dwarves have fallen further so are sub-classes etc); the fact that this religion has been so influencial in Fereldan and Orlesian society is the WHOLE reason why the two countries are on the verge of collapse with the Mage and Templar war.

 

I feel like much of this may have been the Chantry, rather than Andraste or the Maker. I am kind of in the mind that the Maker didn't exist, given some of Inqusition's revelations. But, I doubt the Chantry just made it all up. (I actually don't really like the Maker either.) Perhaps Andraste preached of the Maker in the same way that the Inquisition claimed their herald was divinely touched. Of course, we learn that isn't true. Perhaps the Maker is just some idea Mythal, he does seem very justice oriented, or one of the other existing gods. Tevinter believed that Andraste was a mage. We have only heard the Southern version of both Andraste and the Maker so far, and if DAI has tought us anything, it is how Thedasian's like to re-write history. Tevinter may actually have a far more accurate depiction of the Maker, though I am certain even that has been skewered through time. 

[Ashagar]

Given that the maker was a ancient Neromenian/Tevinter creator deity there likely more ancient knowledge about the pre-Andrastian beliefs around him in Tevinter from, perhaps even ancient shrines and temples. Its certain that both the old and new Imperial chantry had and have different beliefs than the Orlaisian chantry does including making use of male priests and allowing them to marry.

[Koneko Koji]

Given that the maker was a ancient Neromenian/Tevinter creator deity there likely more ancient knowledge about the pre-Andrastian beliefs around him in Tevinter from, perhaps even ancient shrines and temples. Its certain that both the old and new Imperial chantry had and have different beliefs than the Orlaisian chantry does including making use of male priests and allowing them to marry.

 

I thought the Maker was Almarri in origin given that Andraste was the one who started preaching about him?

[Ashagar]

Nope, he was a deity known to the Northern Neromenian tribes and the later Tevinter Imperium but remember Andraste might have been Almarri but she was a escaped tevinter slave who had fled the Imperium which is where she likely heard of him in the first place.

 

She might have put her own spin on the deity as did the chantry about both her and the maker but he was already known to the Tevinter before she launched her Holy War.

[Kantr]

There are quite a few parallels between them. Except for the daughters thing since Morrigan has a son in some world states. However if Flemeth turned out to be Mythal AND Andraste it'd probably demean their respective tales. But I do think Mythal may have nudged Andraste in some way, probably when she heard the voice of the 'maker' in the fade, though I'm more inclined to believe that was Dumat.

 

Ultimately though, I just think Bioware just has a thing for ladies getting betrayed by men. And singing. There's a lot of emphasis on song. Andraste charming the maker with her voice, lyrium, old gods/archdemons. To quote Flemythal "So long as the music plays, we dance."

 

Why would it be dumat? He was killed when Andraste was born

Loghain's seed is strong. *wink wink*  (I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself.)

Except Loghain's first born was a girl.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

Additionally, there is some similar iconography associated with the two figures:

-notice the headpiece. Though, Meredith wears the same thing. I am guessing her motivation was to mirror Andraste, but why Flemeth wears it may just be another small, well tiny perhaps, hint of the relationship between the two. 

 

.....Why did I not see this from before?

[leaguer of one]

And there's more!

 

 

What's that tile look like?

 

The game is called dragon age for a reason.

[Avejajed]

The game is called dragon age for a reason.

EXACTLY.


I think you've solved it!

[Aravasia]

I am reading through Andraste's Sermons and I believe I found some more to speculate on. 

 

First is the codex entry for Here Lies the Abyss:

Spoiler

Andraste 14 

Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls.

From these emerald waters doth life begin anew.

Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you.

In my arms lies Eternity.

 

-Andraste 14:11

 

Chantry sisters have long since debated this section of the Chant of Light. It is tempting to assume that the "well of all souls" is a literal well, but such imagery appears nowhere in Andraste's other works. An examination from Threnodies 1:4 yields cues:

 

From the waters of the Fade you made the world. As the Fade had been fluid, so was the world fixed.

It is possible – even likely – that the "emerald waters" Andraste refers to are the substance of the Fade, which began as an "ocean of dreams" (Threnodies 1:1) and was reduced to a well – bottomless but limited in scope – by the Maker's creation of our world.

Is Andraste urging the listener to come to the Fade? Should we take "From these emerald waters doth life begin anew," as literal evidence of reincarnation – or even of life after death, as the Cult of Spirits suggests – or as a figurative benediction indicating that the Maker is the source of all life, and in finding His embrace for Eternity, we will only be returning our souls from whence they came?

 

– An excerpt from Reflections on Divinty, by Revered Mother Juliette

http://dragonage.wik..._Lies_the_Abyss

I believed that this might be a possible reference to Well of Sorrows. Googling this, and I come upon an exerpt from The Calling: 

 

In it, Maric and Fiona stumble upon an underground lake, and Maric quotes the lines from Andraste's Sermons. Now, here is the good part:

Spoiler

"Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls. From these emerald waters doth life begin anew." He raised an eyebrow when he saw she didn't recognize the quote. "It's from the Chant of Light."...

"Oh. It's where Andraste goes to speak to the Maker for the first time. It's where she convinces him to forgive mankind. It was supposed to be this beautiful temple deep under the earth surrounded by emerald waters."

Of course, Maric and Fiona are in the deep roads in this portion, so it is highly unlikely that they came upon the Temple itself, but rather just that this place reminded him of it. But, this does tell us that the Well of all Souls not only was a temple, but is where Andraste spoke to the Maker. Also, surrounded by emerald waters.

 

Here is concept art from Inquisition, depicting what I believe to be the Temple of Mythal: 

Spoiler

This image shows part of the temple as being underground as well. Could it be that the Well of all Souls was the Well of Sorrows? And this is where Andraste apparently spoke to the Maker. So, possibly the maker actually was just some idea based off of Mythal. 

 

And more speculation, from the codex of Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts:

Spoiler

The Old Gods will call to you, 

From their Ancient Prisons they will sing. 

Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts, 

On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight, 

The First of My children, lost to night.

 

– Canticle of Silence 3:6

http://dragonage.wik...d_Wicked_Hearts

The fact that the Maker refers to the Old Gods as his children is very important. We know that Mythal is the all-mother to the other Gods. This excerpt describes that, not only were the Old Gods the Maker's children, but were his first children. In all of the other sermons from the chantry, the Maker's first children are described as the fade spirits. This sermon, however, would indicate that the Old Gods were the first, or perhaps the spirits he first created just included the Old Gods. Either way, we know now that the Maker is the one who created them.

 

Alone, these details are insignificant, but combined with what else has been speculated, and I believe that there is a real possibility of a connection between Andraste, Mythal, the Maker, and the Old Gods.  

[Caddius]

That's actually my biggest problem with the Andraste=Mythal theory why would Mythal care enough to join with Andraste and go on a campaign to defeat Tevinter? 

 

She seems very wrapped up in her own revenge scheme. 

Abelas comments that Mythal was slain by those similar to those invading the Temple at the moment in a Pro-Templar run.

Venatori. Tevinter.

One of my many half-formed theories is that the Neromenian Dreamers that Dorian mentions having foci like the Orb assassinated Mythal during a high point in Creator tensions. While the Creators argued and fought for power and became corrupt, Tevinter went on the rise. By the time they were sealed away, the Magisters of Tevinter had been able to amass enough magical know-how and firepower to take down the remnants of the Elvhen.

There's an analysis of Tyrdda Bright-Axe that points to Mythal having been Tyrdda's lover, and the Avvar split from the Alamarri when a Dreamer, Thelm, tried to turn them into a weapon against the city of Arlathan. There's a connection between Thelm and ravens, pointing to Dirthamen. Maferath was an Avvar chieftain.

I can't help but think of Mythal hitching a ride with Andraste and uniting the tribes of Ferelden into a dagger aimed at Tevinter's heart in return for her betrayal.

Of course, there's a lot of holes in this. Like the aforementioned 'Whence came the Maker into these shenanigans?' But I've seen more eloquent people than I describe the Andraste=A Vessel of Mythal/Descendant of Tyrdda Bright-Axe.

EDIT: People like Aravasia above me, actually.   

[Aravasia]

I believe Abelas said that about the invaders on my pro-mage run as well, though I would need to confirm it before I was certain.

And what?? Tyrdda Bright-Axe and Mythal? Please share, if you can!

 

 

Also, I delved into some of the astrarirums' codex, and here's the one for the constellation Silentir: 

Spoiler

Referred to as "Silence" in the common parlance, the constellation Silentir is historically attributed to Dumat, the Old God of Silence and leader of the ancient Tevinter pantheon. The depiction of the constellation, however, is often debated. Some depict a dragon in flight, while others (also the most common modern depictions) show a man carrying a horn and a wand. Some scholars believe these represented scales, which would point to this constellation being a supplantation of the elven Mythal, but nothing indicates this to be more than speculation.

 

--From A Study of Thedosian Astronomy by Sister Oran Petrarchius

http://dragonage.wik...ation:_Silentir

I believe this adds towards the Mythal = Dumat theory. 

 

And adding some onto my previous posts. This phrase in particular caught my eye:

Spoiler

On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight, 

The First of My children, lost to night.

http://dragonage.wik...d_Wicked_Hearts

The First of My children, lost to night. Night? This could be a reference to Lusacan the God of Night. And, is apparently the last God expected to awaken. So, this could be a possible reference towards direct conflict between the Maker and Lusacan. Where the Maker some how lost the other Old Gods to Lusacan. 

 

Or, if you believe that the Maker may have been an ideal based off of Mythal, then there is also this codex, making the connection between Lusacan and Falon'Din:

Spoiler

Called "Shadow" in the common parlance, likely due to the ancient association of the constellation Tenebrium with Lusacan, the Old God of darkness and the night. It is odd, however, that the depiction for this constellation has always been an owl and not a dragon, even in the Tevinter texts. This lends credence to the widely-held belief that Tenebrium was a name meant to supplant an older, elven association - perhaps with the elven god Falon'Din, sometimes represented in tales as a giant owl. There is, of course, another explanation: owls are nocturnal hunters, and among earlier people, were considered terrifying omens of loss.

 

--From A Study of Thedosian Astronomy by Sister Oran Petrarchius

http://dragonage.wik...tion:_Tenebrium

By this, could Falon'Din have been the betrayer of Mythal? We know he amassed wars for adulation, until Mythal finally stopped him, by Solas's explanation in the Temple of Mythal:

Spoiler

However, the word betrayal indicates that the attack was by someone unexpected. Who is extremely close to Falon'Din and would likely betray his mother for him? Dirthamen. 

 

Now that I have read the astrarium's, I think I can better match up the Old Gods to the Pantheon, if this theory is true:

 

Dumat (Silence) - Mythal

Lusacan (Night) - Falon'Din

Zazikel (Chaos) - Likely Elgar'nan, given that it wouldn't be Falon'Din. And also was the archdemon of the second Blight. 

Toth (Fire) - Sylaise

 

Razikale (Mystery) - Andruil. I would have never made this connection myself. But here is the codex entry for Razikale's constellation:

Spoiler

Owing primarily to the popular Orlesian tale of the same name, the constellation Eluvia is commonly referred to as "Sacrifice." During the Glory Age, folklore told of a young woman saved from a lustful mage by being sent into the sky by her father - after which the mage killed him (hence the sacrifice). The daughter became the constellation, depicted as a seated woman with her head in the clouds. Prior to this tale, Eluvia was though to represent Razikale, the Tevinter Old God of mystery, and the constellation was the source of many superstitions involving the granting of wishes.

 

 

--From A Study of Thedosian Astronomy by Sister Oran Petrarchius

http://dragonage.wik...llation:_Eluvia

Who else do we know to be a Goddess of Sacrifice? Solas's Temple of Mythal banter:

Spoiler

Also, this constellation is represented by a women, making it less likely to be one of the male Gods.

So, due to this association, I believe that Andruil is the most likely candidate. Also placing her as the sixth Old God, yet to be awakened.

 

Urthemiel (Beauty) - Ghilan'nain. Urthemiel's constellation also depicts a woman, described as 'The Maiden.'

Spoiler

Referred to as "the Maiden" in common parlance, depictions of the constellation Bellitanus vary from one Age to the next. It has always been considered fashionable for prominent women of the day to be declared the Maiden's personification: Queen Madrigal in the Exalted Age, for instance, and Queen Asha before her. None of these women would likely appreciate the fact that Bellitanus is believed to have originally referred to Urthemiel, the Old God of Beauty.

 

--From A Study of Thedosian Astronomy by Sister Oran Petrarchius

http://dragonage.wik...ion:_Bellitanus

It would then make sense that Urthemiel would correlate to a female Goddess. And, Ghilan'nain's codex entry makes a point of described her as beautiful:

Spoiler

They say Ghilan'nain was one of the People, in the days before Arlathan, and the chosen of Andruil the Huntress. She was very beautiful—with hair of snowy white—and as graceful as a gazelle. She kept always to Andruil's Ways, and Andruil favored her above all others.

http://dragonage.wik...er_of_the_Halla

 

Andoral (Slaves) - It could be either June or Dirthamen. June's codex does not give much away(unsuprisingly, he is apprently the wild card.) But, you may perhaps  make a loose association with this in the entry:

Spoiler

When the People were young, we wandered the forests without purpose. We drank from streams and ate the berries and nuts that we could find. We did not hunt, for we had no bows. We wore nothing, for we had no knowledge of spinning or needlecraft. We shivered in the cold nights, and went hungry though the winters, when all the world was covered in ice and snow....

 

We learned to cook the flesh of the creatures we hunted over Sylaise's fire, and we learned to clothe ourselves in their furs and skins. And the People were no longer cold and hungry.

http://dragonage.wik...od_of_the_Craft

And the People were no longer cold and hungry. It sounds as though perhaps the elves were homeless, and June was able to provide for them (maybe by making them slaves?) It reminded me of the conversation with Dorian, where he relates the general attitude towards slavery as a good thing, or at least better than letting the poor starve and become homeless. A bit of a weak connection either way, but like I said, we just do not have enough information on June yet. 

 

So, who is the outlier? Dirthamen. And I believe that this has some reason to do with him being the betrayer of Mythal. I do not believe he is dead, as we know that Mythal has yet to fulfill her vengeance. But where he would be, or what he is up to, is unknown.