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[Patchwork]

Mythal joining with Andraste to get Dumat's soul for her personal power is a theory I can sort of get behind. It's still putting too much weight on one character but if it's all done to enact her vengeance (if the Creators/elves come from spirits then Mythal is definitely Anders/Kristoff/Justice/Vengeance writ large) okay maybe.

 

 

I'm a firm believer in Creators=Old Gods, working from that assumption and that the Creators are the ones who killed/betrayed Mythal then Andrasthal is Mythal's first go at revenge. It's tearing down what was left of them, ruining their empire and replacing belief in the dragon gods with Andrastianism. Andraste dies, Mythal watches as twisted versions of her enemies rise and are struck down but it's not enough she wants them to pay more. She hears Flemeth's call for justice, they merge and Flemythal suit each other in a way Andrasthal never did and together they will have VENGEANCE!

[MACharlie1]

Of course June is the wild card...

 

[earymir]

Mythal joining with Andraste to get Dumat's soul for her personal power is a theory I can sort of get behind. It's still putting too much weight on one character but if it's all done to enact her vengeance (if the Creators/elves come from spirits then Mythal is definitely Anders/Kristoff/Justice/Vengeance writ large) okay maybe.

 

 

I'm a firm believer in Creators=Old Gods, working from that assumption and that the Creators are the ones who killed/betrayed Mythal then Andrasthal is Mythal's first go at revenge. It's tearing down what was left of them, ruining their empire and replacing belief in the dragon gods with Andrastianism. Andraste dies, Mythal watches as twisted versions of her enemies rise and are struck down but it's not enough she wants them to pay more. She hears Flemeth's call for justice, they merge and Flemythal suit each other in a way Andrasthal never did and together they will have VENGEANCE!

 

Okay I deleted everything I wrote because I somehow missed like half the conversation on this thread and actually like it better than what I had, mostly.  

 

7 old gods = 9 elven pantheon gods MINUS Mythal and Fen'Harel. Or minus Fen'Harel and someone else?  I don't know who the other would be though.   

 

Mythal might be that interesting "Old God" Draconis, or the like.  The Dumat theory makes sense timeline wise, but as far as Mythal's betrayal, it doesn't make that much sense to me that she would become an Old God after being betrayed by someone connected to the elves (creators, I assumed).  

 

Fen'harel I think is separate.  He's only *sort* of part of the Elven Pantheon / Creators.  

 

I think there's lots of good evidence that Andraste = Mythal.  In Dragon Age Origins they made no attempt to depict them as similar, but they also didn't have an "iconic" look for Flemeth.  In DA:I, the imagery is everywhere.  There's concept art showing "Flemeth's" face in a tree, but tagged as an old Elven god, etc.  

 

The creators as old gods, excluding Mythal, could also explain (my original post before) why Fen'Harel and Mythal disagree on the blight, seemingly.  Flemeth has actively fought against it, and doesn't seem at all opposed to the wardens existing.  Fen'Harel HATES the Grey Wardens and hates that they go after the Old Gods.  If the Creators/Old Gods are the ones that betrayed Flemeth, it would make complete sense for her to go after them, while Fen'Harel wants to protect them, or at least cure them.  

[earymir]

I believe Abelas said that about the invaders on my pro-mage run as well, though I would need to confirm it before I was certain.

And what?? Tyrdda Bright-Axe and Mythal? Please share, if you can!

 

 

Also, I delved into some of the astrarirums' codex, and here's the one for the constellation Silentir: 

Spoiler

http://dragonage.wik...ation:_Silentir

I believe this adds towards the Mythal = Dumat theory. 

 

And adding some onto my previous posts. This phrase in particular caught my eye:

Spoiler

http://dragonage.wik...d_Wicked_Hearts

The First of My children, lost to night. Night? This could be a reference to Lusacan the God of Night. And, is apparently the last God expected to awaken. So, this could be a possible reference towards direct conflict between the Maker and Lusacan. Where the Maker some how lost the other Old Gods to Lusacan. 

 

Or, if you believe that the Maker may have been an ideal based off of Mythal, then there is also this codex, making the connection between Lusacan and Falon'Din:

Spoiler

http://dragonage.wik...tion:_Tenebrium

By this, could Falon'Din have been the betrayer of Mythal? We know he amassed wars for adulation, until Mythal finally stopped him, by Solas's explanation in the Temple of Mythal:

Spoiler

However, the word betrayal indicates that the attack was by someone unexpected. Who is extremely close to Falon'Din and would likely betray his mother for him? Dirthamen. 

 

Now that I have read the astrarium's, I think I can better match up the Old Gods to the Pantheon, if this theory is true:

 

Dumat (Silence) - Mythal

Lusacan (Night) - Falon'Din

Zazikel (Chaos) - Likely Elgar'nan, given that it wouldn't be Falon'Din. And also was the archdemon of the second Blight. 

Toth (Fire) - Sylaise

 

Razikale (Mystery) - Andruil. I would have never made this connection myself. But here is the codex entry for Razikale's constellation:

Spoiler

http://dragonage.wik...llation:_Eluvia

Who else do we know to be a Goddess of Sacrifice? Solas's Temple of Mythal banter:

Spoiler

Also, this constellation is represented by a women, making it less likely to be one of the male Gods.

So, due to this association, I believe that Andruil is the most likely candidate. Also placing her as the sixth Old God, yet to be awakened.

 

Urthemiel (Beauty) - Ghilan'nain. Urthemiel's constellation also depicts a woman, described as 'The Maiden.'

Spoiler

http://dragonage.wik...ion:_Bellitanus

It would then make sense that Urthemiel would correlate to a female Goddess. And, Ghilan'nain's codex entry makes a point of described her as beautiful:

Spoiler

http://dragonage.wik...er_of_the_Halla

 

Andoral (Slaves) - It could be either June or Dirthamen. June's codex does not give much away(unsuprisingly, he is apprently the wild card.) But, you may perhaps  make a loose association with this in the entry:

Spoiler

http://dragonage.wik...od_of_the_Craft

And the People were no longer cold and hungry. It sounds as though perhaps the elves were homeless, and June was able to provide for them (maybe by making them slaves?) It reminded me of the conversation with Dorian, where he relates the general attitude towards slavery as a good thing, or at least better than letting the poor starve and become homeless. A bit of a weak connection either way, but like I said, we just do not have enough information on June yet. 

 

So, who is the outlier? Dirthamen. And I believe that this has some reason to do with him being the betrayer of Mythal. I do not believe he is dead, as we know that Mythal has yet to fulfill her vengeance. But where he would be, or what he is up to, is unknown. 

 

Ah, that would help with the Mythal thing.  So do we think the Creators were turned into Old Gods unwillingly, perhaps by Fen'Harel, so that they would not be able to wreak such havoc on their followers?   Clearly the Old Gods were not as powerful as the Creators.  

 

Of course, then we need to know how they all became tainted.  

 

 

-Not to take this off topic re: Andraste.  But, the evidence for Sera and Andruil being the same seems pretty good so far, which makes me think perhaps Razikale is not Andruil?  -  Andruil seems like she would have been some kind of OGB (based on our theory for Mythal and Andraste then Flemeth) if she is now Sera.  Or there's some other mechanism for creators/old gods (perhaps a split in their spirits or something).  The direct connection between old gods and creators is difficult!

[Ranadiel Marius]

Ah, that would help with the Mythal thing. So do we think the Creators were turned into Old Gods unwillingly, perhaps by Fen'Harel, so that they would not be able to wreak such havoc on their followers? Clearly the Old Gods were not as powerful as the Creators.

I think there is a good chance that the Old Gods were created by the Creators intentionally. We know that people were sealed away by Sola's in mirrors. All things considered, this is most likely the Creators sealed in Eluvians, possibly in the Black City. But then what would that make the Old Gods if the creators themselves were separate entities? Cory gives us the answer.

Cory puts a portion of his soul in a dragon. Morrigan, if she drinks of the well, says he is most likely imitating the Old Gods. One way to interpret this is that the Old Gods were dragons with fragments of the souls of the Creators in them. So the creators had their souls in two bodies at once. One of their bodies was sealed in a mirror, the other sealed in the Earth.

This idea would be consistent with Flemeth's line about a whisper of Mythal's soul making in through the ages to her. Mythal's main body was killed by her betrayer leaving only the whisper of her soul in her bound dragon. I suspect Solas didn't have a dragon, or if he did it isn't one of the old gods. That does however leave one of the Creators unaccounted for, which would probably be the betrayer.

[earymir]

Maybe intentionally but only out of desperation? Like a last resort before being put behind the Eluvians.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Maybe intentionally but only out of desperation? Like a last resort before being put behind the Eluvians.

If my theory is right, I doubt it was done out of desperation. Dragons ruled the skies prior to the Veil, which is when I place the Elven gods for various reasons. It is also implied that dragons were sacred beasts for ancient Elvhan, and their form was limited to the gods and maybe their closest followers. So it would follow that the Elvhan gods put a portion of their souls into dragons as a show of power and to solidify their divine status.

[earymir]

I think I need to look at my World of Dragon Age book when I get home, I am mixing up my timeline a little bit I think!

So, Old Gods are part of the creators, but presumably before they were cast under the earth and before the creators were cast behind eluvians. They would just be dragons with god-sparks or whatever. Seems reasonable. Probably alll the creators had this? And yes, I agree the Veil did not happen until later. Especially based on Solas' talk about it.

Supposedly by the time the Tevinters were worshipping the Old Gods, it was when they were already underground. And hence they had to call to the Tevinters to give them magic / communicate from afar through prayer etc.

So something happened in between here - I assume the Betrayal of Mythal, and the creation of the Veil (perhaps by Fen'Harel, maybe to hold back a world-destroying war between the creators?). This forced 7 of them behind the Eluvians or whatever, and their Dragon forms were forced underground.

I wonder then how the Blight part of this works. How did they go from being Old Gods to Archdemons I wonder. How did the magisters become the first Darkspawn (which still seems like a semi-reasonable story given what we know of Corypheus and the Architect)? Were they holding (a la Mythal) a part of the Old God's souls, thereby making both the magisters and Old Gods corrupted at the same time? Such mystery.

[Aravasia]

Ah, that would help with the Mythal thing.  So do we think the Creators were turned into Old Gods unwillingly, perhaps by Fen'Harel, so that they would not be able to wreak such havoc on their followers?   Clearly the Old Gods were not as powerful as the Creators.  

 

Of course, then we need to know how they all became tainted.  

 

 

-Not to take this off topic re: Andraste.  But, the evidence for Sera and Andruil being the same seems pretty good so far, which makes me think perhaps Razikale is not Andruil?  -  Andruil seems like she would have been some kind of OGB (based on our theory for Mythal and Andraste then Flemeth) if she is now Sera.  Or there's some other mechanism for creators/old gods (perhaps a split in their spirits or something).  The direct connection between old gods and creators is difficult!

 

I don't necessarily believe they were turned into Old Gods per say. I believe they were shapeshifters, able to take the form of a dragon, much in the way Flemeth is. Perhaps being a dragon is even their normal form, and they just shapeshift into elves. I do believe that the Old Gods/Creators are something unique, as in, not just mages, or just spirits, or just dragons. They are likely, as Solas said 'something we've never even seen.' If you are talking about how they became imprisoned under ground though, then I would say, yes, that was likely Solas. Solas's Temple of Mythal banter reveals to us that Mythal came into direct conflict with two of the Gods: Andruil and Falon'Din. Falon'Din, for his adulation wars, and Andruil for her pleasure trips to the Void. I am guessing that the timeline of their imprisonment was something like this:

 

civil war > Mythal's murder > Solas traps them all away

 

Also, something I posted in another thread, that may be of note here. It is about the Mosiacs located in Mythal's Temple:

Spoiler

Okay, so this is all just light speculation. But, it is always possible that Bioware may have been hinting at something.

 

In the Temple of Mythal, while most of Elven Pantheon's mosiacs are located inside with the section where Abelas is, there are four mosiacs located in the section where you complete the rituals. First, is the location of Falon'Din's and Andruil's:

Spoiler

On the left side of the front door are two mosiacs of Falon'Din:

Spoiler

 

Then, two mosiacs of Andruil on the right:

Spoiler

These two are the only mosiacs that are placed as such. It should also be noted that they are as well the only two that Solas comments on.

 

Next, are the other two Mosiacs that are located in the ritual section of the temple, though these are in different locations. They are June's:

Spoiler

And of course, Fen'Harel:

Spoiler

So, what could this mean? Probably nothing. I do believe it is notable, however, that Solas only comments on Andruil and Falon'Din, along with their mosiacs having a bit more prominent display than any of the others. We know that both Andruil and Falon'Din came into direct conflict with Mythal. If there was a some type of team up between the Gods, I am thinking it would be Mythal, June, Fen'Harel vs. Adruil, Falon'Din, Dirthamen. And if the theory about the last two Gods, Razikale = Andruil or Dirthamen, and Lusacan = Falon'Din or both Falon'Din and Dirthamen, I'd say that Mythal is finally about to have her revenge. 

 

If the creators are Old Gods, I'm not 100% certain that Andruil would be Razikale. I based this mostly on that Razikale's constellation is a depiction of a sacrifice, and Andruil, being a Goddess of sacrifice, would fit. Along with it being the only constellation to feature a female form, other than Urthemiel (whom I presume would be Ghilan'nain.) But, many people have speculated that Razikale would be Dirthamen, because mystery is somewhat similar to secrets and knowledge. Or, that Dirthamen and Falon'Din share the same body, well, dragon-body, and are therefore, one Old God, presumably Lusacan. The only Creators whose Old Gods version I would be mostly certain on, that is if they are even Old Gods at all, is that Lusacan would be Falon'Din, and Sylaise would be Toth. The former, because Lusacan's astrarium is the most direct in drawing their connection. And the later is them both being the Gods of Fire. Presumably, by the Silentir astraium and other gathered information, Mythal would be Dumat, but even this has been debatable. If DAI showed us anything, it is that even the established lore of the world is very open to speculation. 

 

I admit, I haven't really heard out the Sera = Andruil theory. Mostly just because I believe that that reveal would have come out in game, and that would be a pretty major role to put on an optional companion. I also believe that it is unlikely that Bioware would give us two hidden God companions. But then, I never thought they would have given us even the one. And I have not been able to find any information that would be able to directly combat the theory. So, I will most definitely leave it in the realm of possibilities. 

[Aravasia]

I think there is a good chance that the Old Gods were created by the Creators intentionally. We know that people were sealed away by Sola's in mirrors. All things considered, this is most likely the Creators sealed in Eluvians, possibly in the Black City. But then what would that make the Old Gods if the creators themselves were separate entities? Cory gives us the answer.

Cory puts a portion of his soul in a dragon. Morrigan, if she drinks of the well, says he is most likely imitating the Old Gods. One way to interpret this is that the Old Gods were dragons with fragments of the souls of the Creators in them. So the creators had their souls in two bodies at once. One of their bodies was sealed in a mirror, the other sealed in the Earth.

This idea would be consistent with Flemeth's line about a whisper of Mythal's soul making in through the ages to her. Mythal's main body was killed by her betrayer leaving only the whisper of her soul in her bound dragon. I suspect Solas didn't have a dragon, or if he did it isn't one of the old gods. That does however leave one of the Creators unaccounted for, which would probably be the betrayer.

 

I find this theory really interesting. We also know that the Creators are perfectly able to seperate their souls into different fragments, ala Flemeth. Something else that may be of note, remember when Cole says to Solas 'you're different, you exist in both places,' I presume that this means that Solas has both a spirit self and physical self. And we know that Eluvians can link to the fade. Is it possible, that while the Creator's physical selves are trapped in their Old God Forms underground, that their spirit selves are trapped in the fade somewhere, behind an Eluvian? This would also fit with Cole's other dialogue to Solas 'They sleep, masked behind a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them..' *Solas blocks him out before he finishes* The phrase 'they sleep' sounds eerily familar to how the Old Gods sleep, before they are awakened by the Darkspawn. And as for them being masked behind a mirror (presumably an Eluvian) perhaps that Eluvian is just a portal to where their spirit selves are, while their physical selves are the dragons underground. 

[earymir]

I don't necessarily believe they were turned into Old Gods per say. I believe they were shapeshifters, able to take the form of a dragon, much in the way Flemeth is. Perhaps being a dragon is even their normal form, and they just shapeshift into elves. I do believe that the Old Gods/Creators are something unique, as in, not just mages, or just spirits, or just dragons. They are likely, as Solas said 'something we've never even seen.' If you are talking about how they became imprisoned under ground though, then I would say, yes, that was likely Solas. Solas's Temple of Mythal banter reveals to us that Mythal came into direct conflict with two of the Gods: Andruil and Falon'Din. Falon'Din, for his adulation wars, and Andruil for her pleasure trips to the Void. I am guessing that the timeline of their imprisonment was something like this:
 
civil war > Mythal's murder > Solas traps them all away
 
Also, something I posted in another thread, that may be of note here. It is about the Mosiacs located in Mythal's Temple:

Spoiler

Okay, so this is all just light speculation. But, it is always possible that Bioware may have been hinting at something.
 
In the Temple of Mythal, while most of Elven Pantheon's mosiacs are located inside with the section where Abelas is, there are four mosiacs located in the section where you complete the rituals. First, is the location of Falon'Din's and Andruil's:

Spoiler

On the left side of the front door are two mosiacs of Falon'Din:

Spoiler

 
Then, two mosiacs of Andruil on the right:

Spoiler

These two are the only mosiacs that are placed as such. It should also be noted that they are as well the only two that Solas comments on.
 
Next, are the other two Mosiacs that are located in the ritual section of the temple, though these are in different locations. They are June's:

Spoiler

And of course, Fen'Harel:

Spoiler

So, what could this mean? Probably nothing. I do believe it is notable, however, that Solas only comments on Andruil and Falon'Din, along with their mosiacs having a bit more prominent display than any of the others. We know that both Andruil and Falon'Din came into direct conflict with Mythal. If there was a some type of team up between the Gods, I am thinking it would be Mythal, June, Fen'Harel vs. Adruil, Falon'Din, Dirthamen. And if the theory about the last two Gods, Razikale = Andruil or Dirthamen, and Lusacan = Falon'Din or both Falon'Din and Dirthamen, I'd say that Mythal is finally about to have her revenge. 

 
If the creators are Old Gods, I'm not 100% certain that Andruil would be Razikale. I based this mostly on that Razikale's constellation is a depiction of a sacrifice, and Andruil, being a Goddess of sacrifice, would fit. Along with it being the only constellation to feature a female form, other than Urthemiel (whom I presume would be Ghilan'nain.) But, many people have speculated that Razikale would be Dirthamen, because mystery is somewhat similar to secrets and knowledge. Or, that Dirthamen and Falon'Din share the same body, well, dragon-body, and are therefore, one Old God, presumably Lusacan. The only Creators whose Old Gods version I would be mostly certain on, that is if they are even Old Gods at all, is that Lusacan would be Falon'Din, and Sylaise would be Toth. The former, because Lusacan's astrarium is the most direct in drawing their connection. And the later is them both being the Gods of Fire. Presumably, by the Silentir astraium and other gathered information, Mythal would be Dumat, but even this has been debatable. If DAI showed us anything, it is that even the established lore of the world is very open to speculation. 
 
I admit, I haven't really heard out the Sera = Andruil theory. Mostly just because I believe that that reveal would have come out in game, and that would be a pretty major role to put on an optional companion. I also believe that it is unlikely that Bioware would give us two hidden God companions. But then, I never thought they would have given us even the one. And I have not been able to find any information that would be able to directly combat the theory. So, I will most definitely leave it in the realm of possibilities.

Sorry doing this on iPad so can't snip easily! What I meant by changed into Old Gods was just that somehow they lost part of themselves before becoming Old Gods to the Tevinter. I think they are essentially the same beings, but far less powerful - perhaps split at the time of the betrayal, or the like. I agree they probably could easily have shapeshifted etc all the time. I just think they by the time Tevinters were worshipping them, they were much lesser beings, trapped underground and calling out for help basically. I am willing to think it's even possible that the magisters were all but sent to the fade by the old gods to retreive their souls (although I don't think they knew this directly), or some such thing, but were stopped by whatever caused the blight in the first place.

The Sera / Andruil idea I thought was a bit silly at first, but the argument laid out was pretty interesting. Don't have the exact forum post anywhere, but it's in the DAI Spoilers section somewhere. The gist of it is:

1) her tarot card and Andruil's symbol are VERY similar
2) She's a total nutjob / hunter / somewhat anti-elf -in other words similar to Andruil
3) She is afraid of "The Nothing" in the fade (possibly, The Void - similar to Andruil being both afraid of and intrigued by the void and its creatures)
4) Solas' conversations with her are REALLY interesting. First he talks to her in ancient elven and at first assumes she'll understand it (giving some BS explanation that elves sometimes have an intuition for it without knowing it). He also seems to have a connection with her regarding her treatment of the little people, slaves, etc.

Altogether it is pretty compelling that she has a fragment of Andruil in her but doesn't know it. I agree it'd be weird to have her be a creator and an optional character - BUT there's no reason to believe it actually matters. In other words, whether they have a DLC or another game which explores the Andruil idea, she could start as a companion, or simply be introduced for a second time (with relevant recognition or not of Inquisitor).

[Aravasia]

Sorry doing this on iPad so can't snip easily! What I meant by changed into Old Gods was just that somehow they lost part of themselves before becoming Old Gods to the Tevinter. I think they are essentially the same beings, but far less powerful - perhaps split at the time of the betrayal, or the like. I agree they probably could easily have shapeshifted etc all the time. I just think they by the time Tevinters were worshipping them, they were much lesser beings, trapped underground and calling out for help basically. I am willing to think it's even possible that the magisters were all but sent to the fade by the old gods to retreive their souls (although I don't think they knew this directly), or some such thing, but were stopped by whatever caused the blight in the first place.

The Sera / Andruil idea I thought was a bit silly at first, but the argument laid out was pretty interesting. Don't have the exact forum post anywhere, but it's in the DAI Spoilers section somewhere. The gist of it is:

1) her tarot card and Andruil's symbol are VERY similar
2) She's a total nutjob / hunter / somewhat anti-elf -in other words similar to Andruil
3) She is afraid of "The Nothing" in the fade (possibly, The Void - similar to Andruil being both afraid of and intrigued by the void and its creatures)
4) Solas' conversations with her are REALLY interesting. First he talks to her in ancient elven and at first assumes she'll understand it (giving some BS explanation that elves sometimes have an intuition for it without knowing it). He also seems to have a connection with her regarding her treatment of the little people, slaves, etc.

Altogether it is pretty compelling that she has a fragment of Andruil in her but doesn't know it. I agree it'd be weird to have her be a creator and an optional character - BUT there's no reason to believe it actually matters. In other words, whether they have a DLC or another game which explores the Andruil idea, she could start as a companion, or simply be introduced for a second time (with relevant recognition or not of Inquisitor).

Oh, yeah, I agree that something must have happened to make them less powerful by the time they became Gods to the Tevinters. As for what it was, perhaps it was just their imprisonment itself? We know that the Old Gods are able to at least speak to other dreamers, as they called to the Magisters. The idea that the Old Gods' souls are trapped in the Black City and that is why they called out is really compelling. Part of me wonders whether or not they would have known the consequences, however. Corypheus suggests that the Black City had already been black before they entered, and, despite mother Giselle's hand-waving, I am inclined to believe him. So why would they want a Blight to start? Perhaps they know that by beginning a Blight and becoming an Old God Baby is the only way to save them. Though, looking through the timeline, no other historical figures have been born right after any of the Blights, apart from Andraste, making me inclined to believe that they didn't become Old God Babies. 

 

One thing that might conflict with the whole Dumat = Mythal theory, is that Mythal was, well, murdered. So, while her 'soul' clearly remained, I imagine that her body would not have survived to become an archdemon. Something that crossed my mind, is that Abelas may have not been referring to Mythal being murdered before the Pantheon were locked away, but rather, when Andraste had been betrayed and murdered. The only thing conflicting with this is that Flemeth seems to act as though her betrayer still lives, and anyone from that time is likely long dead. Of course, perhaps she has it out for more than just who murdered her, perhaps she seeks vengeance on all who ever wronged her, namely the other Gods.  

 

It should also be noted that Mythal seems to be on good terms with Urthemiel, so whomever Urthemiel was, either a forgotten one, Ghilan'nain, some other creator, or just an Old God, Urthemiel was presumably the only Old God so far that Mythal wished to save. 

[Suledin]

Morrigan is Flemeth's daughter yet she managed to have a son which would be impossible for someone descended from Andraste. 

Morrigan was raised by Flemeth. That was said in DA: 2 by her. She didn't give birth to Morrigan. 

[Brockololly]

Morrigan was raised by Flemeth. That was said in DA: 2 by her. She didn't give birth to Morrigan.

I don't think Flemeth states she didn't give birth to Morrigan either. Its questioned by Morrigan in Origins whether she is Flemeth's biological daughter but she doesn't know.

I don't know, the whole thing with Flemeth and Morrigan sharing those distinct yellow eyes makes me think they're biologically related.

[Suledin]

I don't think Flemeth states she didn't give birth to Morrigan either. Its questioned by Morrigan in Origins whether she is Flemeth's biological daughter but she doesn't know.

I don't know, the whole thing with Flemeth and Morrigan sharing those distinct yellow eyes makes me think they're biologically related.

When Hawke says 'I don't know if she's your daughter or enemy' Flemeth says 'Neither is she'. 

Anyway I'm not sure either about that whole thing between her and Flemeth. Especially when she drunk from the Well. 

[X Equestris]

When Hawke says 'I don't know if she's your daughter or enemy' Flemeth says 'Neither is she'. 
Anyway I'm not sure either about that whole thing between her and Flemeth. Especially when she drunk from the Well.

Hawke says "I'm not sure if...".

[earymir]

Oh, yeah, I agree that something must have happened to make them less powerful by the time they became Gods to the Tevinters. As for what it was, perhaps it was just their imprisonment itself? We know that the Old Gods are able to at least speak to other dreamers, as they called to the Magisters. The idea that the Old Gods' souls are trapped in the Black City and that is why they called out is really compelling. Part of me wonders whether or not they would have known the consequences, however. Corypheus suggests that the Black City had already been black before they entered, and, despite mother Giselle's hand-waving, I am inclined to believe him. So why would they want a Blight to start? Perhaps they know that by beginning a Blight and becoming an Old God Baby is the only way to save them. Though, looking through the timeline, no other historical figures have been born right after any of the Blights, apart from Andraste, making me inclined to believe that they didn't become Old God Babies. 
 
One thing that might conflict with the whole Dumat = Mythal theory, is that Mythal was, well, murdered. So, while her 'soul' clearly remained, I imagine that her body would not have survived to become an archdemon. Something that crossed my mind, is that Abelas may have not been referring to Mythal being murdered before the Pantheon were locked away, but rather, when Andraste had been betrayed and murdered. The only thing conflicting with this is that Flemeth seems to act as though her betrayer still lives, and anyone from that time is likely long dead. Of course, perhaps she has it out for more than just who murdered her, perhaps she seeks vengeance on all who ever wronged her, namely the other Gods.  
 
It should also be noted that Mythal seems to be on good terms with Urthemiel, so whomever Urthemiel was, either a forgotten one, Ghilan'nain, some other creator, or just an Old God, Urthemiel was presumably the only Old God so far that Mythal wished to save.

Do you think perhaps Flemeth/Mythal isn't necessarily trying to get in good with the Old Gods, but rather to take their power? I don't know, just a thought that would be more consistent with the theory she doesn't like the Old Gods but Fen'Harel maybe does. New DLC please!

[Heimdall]

I still don't like the Old Gods = Creators idea. I prefer Old Gods = Forgotten Ones because that way they remain their own distinct entities.

[Suledin]

Hawke says "I'm not sure if...".

Thanks. It was long ago. But it doesn't matter in the end

[X Equestris]

I still don't like the Old Gods = Creators idea. I prefer Old Gods = Forgotten Ones because that way they remain their own distinct entities.

That's what I'm thinking. It makes the most sense to me. Especially with the hints about the void they live in being the root of the taint.

[Rekkampum]

The betrayal also repeats in Mythal's story: "She was betrayed as I was betrayed, as the world was betrayed".

 

Mythal actually lived though and later died, and judging by what we learn re: Solas, it's probably highly unlikely the similarities Andraste and Flemeth have are anything more than that.

[Aravasia]

Do you think perhaps Flemeth/Mythal isn't necessarily trying to get in good with the Old Gods, but rather to take their power? I don't know, just a thought that would be more consistent with the theory she doesn't like the Old Gods but Fen'Harel maybe does. New DLC please!

 

This is a possibility as well. I do not think she was particularly hostile towards Urthemiel, represented by her interaction with Keiran, but she may have just wanted to save the soul in order to gain power from it. However, Flemeth did know that Solas was coming for her, and while not explicitly stated, I imagine that she had known for some time. So, would she have wanted the power just to give to Solas, because she knew it would accomplish her plans? Or perhaps, like Mythal's soul, she intends to pass it on to Morrigan. Though, if that were the case, I imagine she would have just left the soul with Keiran. Unless, she purposely took it and then stored it somewhere, in order to prevent Solas from getting it. 

 

In one of Cole's banters with Solas, Cole states, "you didn't do it to be right, you did it to save them," referring to what I imagine to be his imprisonment of the Gods. This could mean two things, depending on who the 'them' is that Cole is referring to. If Cole is referring to the elves, than that would fit in with the theory that Solas locked the Gods away because they were basically horrible rulers. Another possibility, is that Solas locked the Gods away to protect them from the Blight, which either may have worked so far, or, if they are the Old Gods, he woke up a thousand years later to find out all but two had been transformed into Archdemons and slain. This would also explain his rather peeved attitude towards the Warden's plan to slay the Old Gods and their order in general. 

[Koneko Koji]

Mythal actually lived though and later died, and judging by what we learn re: Solas, it's probably highly unlikely the similarities Andraste and Flemeth have are anything more than that.

 

Don't forget though that Abalas says she died - in so much as a Goddess can; so it may not have been a full death (which we know it wasn't - it was  a split between mind and body).

 

In one of Cole's banters with Solas, Cole states, "you didn't do it to be right, you did it to save them," referring to what I imagine to be his imprisonment of the Gods. This could mean two things, depending on who the 'them' is that Cole is referring to. If Cole is referring to the elves, than that would fit in with the theory that Solas locked the Gods away because they were basically horrible rulers. Another possibility, is that Solas locked the Gods away to protect them from the Blight, which either may have worked so far, or, if they are the Old Gods, he woke up a thousand years later to find out all but two had been transformed into Archdemons and slain. This would also explain his rather peeved attitude towards the Warden's plan to slay the Old Gods and their order in general. 

 

When Solas is at the Temple of Mythal, he tells Abalas that there is a place for him to go - I'm pretty sure this is after Abalas mentions the long sleep. I took this to mean that when Cole speaks of "saving them" that he was the one who put the last of the ancient elves to sleep in this way, but I suppose it could easily mean the Elvhen Gods; so I see it more that they are sealed away in the sleep pod thingies described in the books - somewhere in the Eluvian temples / paths.

[Kantr]

Mythal joining with Andraste to get Dumat's soul for her personal power is a theory I can sort of get behind. It's still putting too much weight on one character but if it's all done to enact her vengeance (if the Creators/elves come from spirits then Mythal is definitely Anders/Kristoff/Justice/Vengeance writ large) okay maybe.

 

 

I'm a firm believer in Creators=Old Gods, working from that assumption and that the Creators are the ones who killed/betrayed Mythal then Andrasthal is Mythal's first go at revenge. It's tearing down what was left of them, ruining their empire and replacing belief in the dragon gods with Andrastianism. Andraste dies, Mythal watches as twisted versions of her enemies rise and are struck down but it's not enough she wants them to pay more. She hears Flemeth's call for justice, they merge and Flemythal suit each other in a way Andrasthal never did and together they will have VENGEANCE!

Mythal can't team with Andraste to get Dumat's soul as she was born in Denerim after he died. Unless you mean she was also an OGB

[Emperor Iaius I]

Since folks are mentioning the Old Gods being created, I should note that there was an old Gaider quote about the Old Gods being neither created or creators. I wish I could find the exact line again, but googling just gets me paraphrases.

But the implication to me was that they were an ancient, outside force independent of the Elven Creators or the Maker. *shrug*