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[Ranadiel Marius]

Since folks are mentioning the Old Gods being created, I should note that there was an old Gaider quote about the Old Gods being neither created or creators. I wish I could find the exact line again, but googling just gets me paraphrases.

But the implication to me was that they were an ancient, outside force independent of the Elven Creators or the Maker. *shrug*

I vaguely recall reading that quote, but I recall it being in the context of Tevinter mythology and not absolute fact. I could be horribly wrong on my recollection though.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Could be -- we rarely get objective fact from DG, usually it's "This is what the Chantry thinks" or "this is what the history books say." It's entirely possible that's a Tevinter only POV.

[Kadra82]

Could be -- we rarely get objective fact from DG, usually it's "This is what the Chantry thinks" or "this is what the history books say." It's entirely possible that's a Tevinter only POV.

"The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

As for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete. The whole truth was lost along with Arlathan and their immortality -- much of their lore was kept by a tradition of apprenticeship, handed down from the knowledgeable to the young, and this relied on the fact that the knowledgeable were eternal. Slaves also had less opportunity to spread their lore, so the sudden aging of the knowledgeable meant that much of this information was simply gone after several generations. This, of course, is their belief: the ancient Imperium maintained that the elves were never immortal to begin with, and that their lore was lost simply because the Imperium forbade its teaching.

Even so, the ancient elves did write things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual. For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods by a long time. Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would think elven gods were worth worshipping. Consider also that it was the Old Gods that taught humanity its magic and encouraged them to destroy Arlathan -- why would elven gods do this? One could point to the Forgotten Ones (look at the codex entry on Fen'Harel for their mention) and suggest that they had reason for vengeance, though that would probably be against Fen'Harel and their good brethren and not against the elven people themselves, no? Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete.

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

The modern Chantry, however, does say that all these other gods are false. It doesn't say they never existed (though the elven legends are dismissed as just that, for the most part, but that's a carry-over of Imperial belief), but merely suggests that the Maker was long ago forgotten and that He is the only god that is worthy of true worship. The fact that His creations turned away from Him is shameful, and it is only by proving our worth to Him once again that the world will become the paradise He intended.

All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith -- though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome.  "

 

This is copied from a post in 2009 from DG

[MACharlie1]

And as we know, based on DAI, indeed. Why would the Old Gods (who might be the elven ones) encourage Tevinter to destroy Arlathan? Because Tevinter never did: the elved destroyed it themselves. Take what DG with a grain of salt it seems...

[Ranadiel Marius]

Whoo, I was remembering the quote correctly.

And as we know, based on DAI, indeed. Why would the Old Gods (who might be the elven ones) encourage Tevinter to destroy Arlathan? Because Tevinter never did: the elved destroyed it themselves. Take what DG with a grain of salt it seems...

Well he does do his best to accurately represent the lore that is currently known. You just have to recognize he is speaking legalese so there is infinite room for things to be different than they appear while still being true. Have to wonder if he has ever messed up and given lore spoilers without realizing it was unknown when he said.

[Eliastion]

And as we know, based on DAI, indeed. Why would the Old Gods (who might be the elven ones) encourage Tevinter to destroy Arlathan? Because Tevinter never did: the elved destroyed it themselves. Take what DG with a grain of salt it seems...

Matters get more complicated when you consider the fact that "elves destroyed themselves" and "Tevinter destroyed Arlathan" aren't as mutually exclusive as it might seem. Think about following chain of events (that's just an idea, I don't argue it necessarily went like this):

1. There is the great Elvhenan with magic far beyond human reach; and then there is the fledgling human country of Tevinter, inferior militarily, culturally and in terms of magical ability

2. A civil war erupts in Elvhenan and escalates quickly, many powerful mages get killed, artifacts lost, whole castles end up in ruins, Eluvian network is possibly incomplete and can't operate to its full potential which makes logistics problematic. Military is weakened after years of civil war, there are large groups of rebels, possibly separatists, unity is a thing of the past... but Tevinter is still not considered a real threat.

3. Tevinter sees an opportunity and launches an invasion. Weakened Elvhenan can't put up proper fight with compromised Eluvian network, army scattered across the whole empire, unable to unite even as the existance of the empire itself is threatened (but those living far from where the war takes place don't believe that, it must be somebody's trick, after all those are only humans, they couldn't -and wouldn't dare - attack Elvhenan!)

4. Tevinter is victorious.

 

In context like this, the sentence "We destroyed ourselves" from an ancient elf is perfectly understandable - Elvhenan WAS in ruins before Tevinter came and the latter could never win if not for the civil war. The destruction WAS elven fault and a jaded ancient elf, one born and raised in Greatest Empire On Earth TM is unlikely to give any credit to humans...

But is he right? Think about it, the sentence "Tevinter destroyed Elvhenan" isn't false either - they did come, they did wage a war and they were the ones to deal the final blow even if their enemy was terribly weakened. If not for them, perhaps Elvhenan could raise from its ow ashes - but they found (perhaps with old gods' help) the moment when Elvhenan was at its weakest, when victory was perfectly possible - and they jumped at this chance and brought Elvhenan to its knees.

 

What I mean to say is that the destruction of Arlathan, or Elvhenan (anyone but the elves seems to be using the former for the elven empire as well as capital) can be, and most likely is, a combination of internal problems and external attack - and depending on the speaker it's absolutely possible for the credit to be given to one or the other category.