32 réponses à ce sujet

[AgeofDragon]

Blood Magic is of course painted in a very dark streak due to Tevinter and the fact it calls for blood or lives. However, there seems to be also be some uses of blood magic to protect and save people?

 

For starters, while it called for Isolde's life, blood magic allowed for a Warden to free Connor from a demon (though it is true that it could be avoided with more mages and lyrium).

 

It is obvious from Merrill that blood magic can be used to purify and she does not participate in wide spread murder to fuel her blood magic, only sacrificing her own blood on will.

 

Also in Inquisition, there is a particular codex. The codex does do like most of the blood mage lore and paint blood mage in bad light, but the end paragraph does offer an interesting insight into blood magic. That blood magic can in fact cure terminal illness, of course with a cost. The mage managing to cure his lovers wasting disease (most likely tuberculosis) at the cost of his own life

 

Responsible Blood Magic

 

You quote the example of the lovers Crescens and Seraphinian. Yes Seraphinian offered his own blood to cure Crescens of her wasting disease, and Crescens lived a long life. But if the noblest use of blood magic still calls for the death of a good man, is that not enough reason to reconsider?

 

—Letter from Magister Aesthia to her apprentice, 7:71 Storm

 

So the question has always been, does the cost of blood magic outweight the good it can do or the other way around? Especially when actually getting to look at the cons and pros of blood magic.

[RawToast]

Personally, i don't see blood magic as inherently evil. It's a tool. A tool that is most often used by the power hungry and desperate. Which isn't a good match.

 

I feel the cost and the benefits don't out weigh each other. It's pretty equal. Except when facing a demon. Then your screwed since the demon already knows all your tricks.

 

Honestly, the biggest problem with blood magic is that there is little information on it. Most who practice it learnt it from a demon, and that method of gaining the skill involves a demon shoving the knowledge into the receivers brain. They don't necessarily understand the skill, they just do it. Not to mention the active condemnation and fear surrounding it stops people from studying it. 

[Ashagar]

It likely doesn't help that to learn blood magic you have to learn you apparently have to bargain with demons which is bad. The early tevinter bargained with the forbidden ones and the old gods, even Merril bargained a demon she if she insisted it was a spirit not a demon.

 

The other issue is that blood magic in itself is apparently corruptive on those who use it, those who tend to use it often don't stop with using just their blood and also more violent the pain or death more powerful the blood magic, not to mention the ability to mentally enslave others that can only be countered by the litany of Adralla or by seekers who are immune to blood magic's mind control.

[Winged Silver]

I'd like to see more objective views on blood magic from the people in game - in particular views that might help enlighten us about how it works. Like Ashagar said, it seems you have to learn it from a demon, which is a little suspicious, but when one says 'demon' is it actually a demon or a spirit of the Fade? Since we know now that there's a difference between, say, a Pride Demon and a Spirit of Wisdom. Theoretically, wouldn't both be able to teach you?

 

I also see blood magic as more of a tool. Certainly, those that would sacrifice others are morally in the wrong, but looking at Merrill, she seemed to fuel her use of blood magic with her own power, rather than that of others. 

 

I'd like to meet an NPC in game who practices blood magic, and is otherwise an average person. With Merrill, her naivety could stand in the way occasionally when she did say something serious and worth consideration. With characters like Morrigan, it could be very ambiguous how they're using the magic. 

 

But overall, I'd say it's not inherently evil. I'd love to see it being used in a positive light.

[Eliastion]

I personally don't think blood magic is naturally corruptive... it just tends to end up this way in practice. But that ties to my idea of schools of magic (as presented in DA:O) being more than just a way of classifying spells - but also philosophies of using magical power. As we know, a mage has limited resources, so he must study magic to optimize his use of power and focus he has. And the four basic ways mages in Thedas do it are as follows*:

1. Spirit magic: Spellcasting is about drawing energy from the Fade and shaping it with your mind; therefore you must study Fade and learn how mind works - those are your strenghts (this school specializes in Fade- and spirit-related stuff as well as with invisible "pure" magical force; anti- and metamagic goes there too)

2. Primal: Physical world has its own powers, it's best to make use of them rather than work against them. You must study those forces and learn how to make them act, they'll do the rest like an avalanche brought down by a single pebble (this school favors elemental powers but often lacks control since magic is more of a "trigger" and unleashed energies are hardly controlled)

3. Creation magic studies physical objects, and living things, empowering, changing and shaping, sometimes even creating by just filling pattern with substance. It's more concerned with material patterns than energy itself.

4. Entropy resembles Creation a lot, but when Creation is interested with Whole and gently filling up cracks and/or making things as they should be, the entropy is about analyzing patterns, finding weak spots and throwing in some pebbles (your magic) in carefully chosen places of complicated machinery of existance to make it jam/weaken/fall apart

 

Those are the four schools, but there is a fifth one, opposed to all three in the basic concept - while they are about doing what best you can within your limits, perhaps extending them with practice, Blood Magic is different. It doesn't ask "how do I best utilize what little power I have", it asks "how do I get more power, reach beyond my limits". It can do things no other school can, it lets you draw power normally impossible to obtain save with significant quantities of toxic lyrium... But it has a price. And, as Dorian says - there is no harm with using your blood or that of willing participant... but what if you want more?

And wanting, needing and reaching for more power is in the very philosophical core of Blood Magic. When you start studying it - when do you stop? What if you get really desperate, suddenly?

Blood magic isn't evil, it's just a tool, but a poisoned dagger isn't evil either. There certainly are people who could use BM responsibly without succumbing to darkness - the problem is, however that those are people who don't feel that they really need power. People who are willing to say stop at some point and accept the limit, regardless of consequences of not being powerful enough. The only problem is that those are precisely not the people who would seek out BM, especially when it is forbiden and especially especially if they would need to make a deal with a demon to learn it.

Therefore BM tends to end up in hands of power-hungry and desperate, which translates to: people who should never have ability to sacrifice lives for their power. And that's where BM's bad reputation comes from: it's most attractive for exactly the king of people who should never learn it as they are pretty much guaranteed to get corrupted... not by Blood Magic itself, but by their own desire for power.

And then there ae all those terrible things you can actually do with BM - things you don't really want to see in hands of power-hungry or truly desperate, now do you...

 

*All this is my personal head-canonish speculation, it doesn't come directly from any official soutrce

[RawToast]

I personally don't think blood magic is naturally corruptive... it just tends to end up this way in practice. But that ties to my idea of schools of magic (as presented in DA:O) being more than just a way of classifying spells - but also philosophies of using magical power. As we know, a mage has limited resources, so he must study magic to optimize his use of power and focus he has. And the four basic ways mages in Thedas do it are as follows*:

1. Spirit magic: Spellcasting is about drawing energy from the Fade and shaping it with your mind; therefore you must study Fade and learn how mind works - those are your strenghts (this school specializes in Fade- and spirit-related stuff as well as with invisible "pure" magical force; anti- and metamagic goes there too)

2. Primal: Physical world has its own powers, it's best to make use of them rather than work against them. You must study those forces and learn how to make them act, they'll do the rest like an avalanche brought down by a single pebble (this school favors elemental powers but often lacks control since magic is more of a "trigger" and unleashed energies are hardly controlled)

3. Creation magic studies physical objects, and living things, empowering, changing and shaping, sometimes even creating by just filling pattern with substance. It's more concerned with material patterns than energy itself.

4. Entropy resembles Creation a lot, but when Creation is interested with Whole and gently filling up cracks and/or making things as they should be, the entropy is about analyzing patterns, finding weak spots and throwing in some pebbles (your magic) in carefully chosen places of complicated machinery of existance to make it jam/weaken/fall apart

 

Those are the four schools, but there is a fifth one, opposed to all three in the basic concept - while they are about doing what best you can within your limits, perhaps extending them with practice, Blood Magic is different. It doesn't ask "how do I best utilize what little power I have", it asks "how do I get more power, reach beyond my limits". It can do things no other school can, it lets you draw power normally impossible to obtain save with significant quantities of toxic lyrium... But it has a price. And, as Dorian says - there is no harm with using your blood or that of willing participant... but what if you want more?

And wanting, needing and reaching for more power is in the very philosophical core of Blood Magic. When you start studying it - when do you stop? What if you get really desperate, suddenly?

Blood magic isn't evil, it's just a tool, but a poisoned dagger isn't evil either. There certainly are people who could use BM responsibly without succumbing to darkness - the problem is, however that those are people who don't feel that they really need power. People who are willing to say stop at some point and accept the limit, regardless of consequences of not being powerful enough. The only problem is that those are precisely not the people who would seek out BM, especially when it is forbiden and especially especially if they would need to make a deal with a demon to learn it.

Therefore BM tends to end up in hands of power-hungry and desperate, which translates to: people who should never have ability to sacrifice lives for their power. And that's where BM's bad reputation comes from: it's most attractive for exactly the king of people who should never learn it as they are pretty much guaranteed to get corrupted... not by Blood Magic itself, but by their own desire for power.

And then there ae all those terrible things you can actually do with BM - things you don't really want to see in hands of power-hungry or truly desperate, now do you...

 

*All this is my personal head-canonish speculation, it doesn't come directly from any official soutrce

 

Outta likes. Have a gif.

 

[Koneko Koji]

I feel that blood magic is a hypocritical subject in Thedas.

They all say it's wrong, yet the Wardens use it for the Joining (this can perhaps be overlooked since the Order straight up says they will do whatever it takes), but then The CIRCLES use it to create their handy-dandy mage tracking jobbies.

 

I think there is a point when its said that because it's taboo, that it's used in the worst possible cases and irresponsibly.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

blood magic has always been neutral

 

the ways of learning however have not necessarily always been the best. 

 

 

consider this:
if you taught the safety/dangers of blood magic more such as possession/demon summing/vulnerability/demon spirit binding 

 

maybe we would have more people use it responsibility 

 

you know

make blood magic the sex ed in schools.

 

instead of NO ITS FORBIDDEN or ABSTINENCE

you give them practical fears and uses and experience to... stay safe. 

[Ashagar]

Neutral? magical that draws its power from pain and death and allows the user to enslave people and bind demons to their bidding is hardly neutral. Even when it is used to help it still leaves suffering and often death in its wake. Even if it can at times be put to good use its still dark magic with all the dangers that implies.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

Neutral? magical that draws its power from pain and death and allows the user to enslave people and bind demons to their bidding is hardly neutral. Even when it is used to help it still leaves suffering and often death in its wake. Even if it can at times be put to good use its still dark magic with all the dangers that implies.

 

Blood is a component. Blood magic can be used to draw on those/produce those things but blood is just a competent. 

 

Think about it, you could stop heart failure / heart attack / bleeding out with blood magic. you could potentially save someone's life with blood magic.

Like reroute the blood through veins/arteries to not broken/cut arteries/veins 

I would love to see a blood magic healer party member and good examples of blood magic. 

On top of which you can even use the wounds of friendly party members to heal them via magic!

 

Blood magic is neutral, it's implications are not so much and demons are attracted to it because people who resort to blood magic are possibly  paniced and need a way out and well if you want to live you might make a deal with blood you don't understand 

[X Equestris]

The thing with blood magic is that even with the best of intentions, it doesn't take much for everything to go horribly wrong. We see this in Last Flight. Then there's the whole "Just a little more power" thing, and the fact that demons are attracted to it.

[Raiil]

The problem with blood magic is the same problem with, say, heroin. In and of itself it's not bad, since it's just a thing- blood magic has no opinions or moral outlooks, it's just a way of doing things.

I think the problem itself is manifold. It can be used to control another person, taking away free will. It turns people into fuel, something we tend to be squeamish about. Blood is a source and icon for life; you are mastering a skill that gives you insane, possibly permanent control of others.

One mage with a strong frost spell and a grudge is a psychopath. One mage controlling a king is master.

Even if it can be used for good, the potential for absolute anarchy passes a much higher threshold. Throw in the guilt by association with the magisters who.stormed the heavens and it's hard to believe that people will use it wisely. The road to hell and all that.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Sure you can use Blood Magic responsibly. How? By having a task force of Templars/Seekers around while studying it at a faraway location who's job it is kill you the moment demons start showing up. I think that's pretty far, right? At least you get to study this form of magic. 

[Uccio]

I'd like to see more objective views on blood magic from the people in game - in particular views that might help enlighten us about how it works. Like Ashagar said, it seems you have to learn it from a demon, which is a little suspicious, but when one says 'demon' is it actually a demon or a spirit of the Fade? Since we know now that there's a difference between, say, a Pride Demon and a Spirit of Wisdom. Theoretically, wouldn't both be able to teach you?

 

I also see blood magic as more of a tool. Certainly, those that would sacrifice others are morally in the wrong, but looking at Merrill, she seemed to fuel her use of blood magic with her own power, rather than that of others. 

 

I'd like to meet an NPC in game who practices blood magic, and is otherwise an average person. With Merrill, her naivety could stand in the way occasionally when she did say something serious and worth consideration. With characters like Morrigan, it could be very ambiguous how they're using the magic. 

 

But overall, I'd say it's not inherently evil. I'd love to see it being used in a positive light.

 

You don´t need to strike a deal with demon to learn blood magic though. Jowain just read some books in the circle. So if the information is handled with care then learning about it cannot bring any harm.

[Koneko Koji]

They did touch on it briefly when Dorian descibes what Tevinter consider blood magic, and when Solas speaks about how being taboo makes it more dangerous - and they both had good points.

[Winged Silver]

You don´t need to strike a deal with demon to learn blood magic though. Jowain just read some books in the circle. So if the information is handled with care then learning about it cannot bring any harm.

 

Oh that's true, I hadn't thought of that. I understand why the Inquisitor couldn't really use or be around people with blood magic affiliations...hope that changes a bit in the future. Whether with a new PC who's chill with it, or allowing the Inquisitor to determine the path of the Inquisition, for good or ill.

[xJLxKing]

Doesn't matter how you look at it, the use of blood magic tends to result in just bad stuff. Blood Magic users by nature tend to be more psychologically disturbed. Blood Magic also tends to be the strongest and most potent magic in the lore.

 

One last thing to mention is the treatment of mages. They are in some way treated much like a second class society that need to be regulated from a young age. Even with the removal of the circle of magic, the templar, the people of Thedas look at magic user much different. You don't say, YES! There is a 6 year old kid next door who just learn to bend time and space to his will; you say OH $H!T let me get the F out of here before he blows the block.

 

 

Because of this, Blood Magic in general tends to be led by emotionally, psychologically, or mentally disturbed individuals who likely got experienced some trauma at young age.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The problem with blood magic is that the only ones who are responsible enough to handle it tend to be responsible enough not to use it. I could plausibly see it as a high-level school taught with many precautions but outside of people without access to lyrium, it's not needed.

And even that adds an element of desperation to it.

[Eliastion]

While I agree that blood magic tends to draw attention of desperate or power-hungry (as I already mentioned in this thread) I must disagree with the "nobody needs blood magic". That's the thing - while it often serves as a shortcut, it does offer power that simply wouldn't be possible otherwise. Joining was created by blood magic, the same blood magic seems to be (at least potentially) capable of cleansing the Taint. Depending on how you interpret the concept of Lyrium being alive, it could be argued that using it IS in fact blood magic of sorts.

Blood magic allows manipulation of living things to extent that seems impossible for Creation magic. The thing is, however, that it's a lot of power coming at greater than usual price. And a mortal mage, with his normal power so very limited, is all too likely to eventually reach the point where he needs more power and starts considering any price to be acceptable for his goals...

It's just much easier to start than to stop. And there's always some important, perhaps even unquestionably noble goal demanding sacrifices. You start using your own blood, then you use blood of someone willing to help you, and then there's that villain who you would probably kill anyway, and then... Of course, it's not guaranteed that a blood mage will turn out this way, but it's much easier to draw a line at "not learning blood magic" level rather than somewhere between ethical and unethical use

[Innsmouth Dweller]

blood magic is used mostly by weak-minded mages 

mechanics-wise blood mages don't need to boost willpower to expand mana pool, they don't need it, willpower is basically resistance to magic attacks (demonic possesion included?). that's all there is to it

 

i don't see the difference between lyrium and blood. unless you thinking of sacrificing hundreds of people, that's usually not good thing to do, whether it's blood magic or pacifying the alienage. the biggest issue andrastians have with it seems to be 'mind control' - a spell that could work for a limited time. just how is that even remotely close to permanent and Chantry-approved rite of tranquility?

[AgeofDragon]

There are in fact several things that reference blood magic to being more than just "it swapping out lyrium for blood." Yes, blood mages can use blood instead of lyrium, like Jowan and Merrill do, but that isn't all blood magic is. For instance, in the codex I referenced above--

Yes Seraphinian offered his own blood to cure Crescens of her wasting disease, and Crescens lived a long life.

 

If curing a wasting disease could be easily done with a large amount of lyrium, then normal, Spirit Healers would be able to do this. However, from the codex it is inferred that Seraphinian did something otherwise unheard of and many wasting/terminal sicknesses still exist in Thedas, despite the presence of Spirit Healers. Queen Rowan, Maric's wife actually died of such a disease and if a Circle mage had been capable of healing her, it would have been done rather than letting her die.

 

There is more to blood magic than the use of blood, so that isn't really the strongest argument. From what I've collected from here, I can say that blood magic should be restricted to the few mages who can use it for good and preferable to help others (mostly for medical reasons).

[Ashagar]

It was also part of a piece by a magister reminding that blood magic isn't always worth the cost. In that case Seraphinian died from what he did leaving Crescens to live on without her beloved and how another was how blood mage wreaked a qunari fleet but in the end its effect on the war was that it made the Qunari fight on harder than before.