78 respuestas en este tema

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

Most people are wrong when they say ME3 was good for 99% then the ending sucked. The writing started sucking back in ME2 but lets not go that far.

 

The whole point of the first game was to stop Sovereign from reaching the Citadel and opening it as a relay to dark space where all the other reapers where here they explain that they could shut down all the relays and cripple the organics war effort. Well why didn't star child just do it? Another plot hole the size of Lisa Ann's birth canal.

 

But back to ME3. If the reapers just attack the Citadel first they could have shut down all the relays cutting off any way for anyone to move around the galaxy and thus winning the war. IT MAKES NO SENSE. I would like to sit down with Mr. Walters and ask these questions because I have lots.

See now it made a little bit more sense if they stuck to Drew Karpyshyn original plot of the reapers needing to find a way to stop the spread of dark energy by going to earth and making a human reaper because they were running out of time, and they believe humans were the way to stop it.

Still sucks the big one but it made sense why they would needed to go to earth before doing anything.

[Linkenski]

Sovereign's plan was to take the citadel so the reapers could enter the galaxy. Without him, they had to slowly get out of dark space but once they did, there was no longer an immediate importance to taking the citadel.

As is seen in ME3, first they obliterate and cripple the homeworlds, then they bring the citadel to each homeworld to process the species into new reapers.

They built the citadel and apparently they can control it, and given the fact that they didn't seem to control the citadel in ME1 I'll assume it requires many reapers in close proximity in order to manipulate the motion of the citadel.

So they didn't attack the citadel, because that's where they need to process everyone. Much smarter to wait for all species to evacuate from their respective homeworlds and collect the majority of them on the citadel. Speeds up the reaperifying process.

Other factors. The reapers aren't used to being beat. They don't care about turning relays off because they're arrogant.

Also Drew Karpyshyn's dark energy plot would contradict Sovereign's speech "we are beyond your comprehension"

If we can understand the Reapers in their actions and motives then that premise is broken.

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

Sovereign's plan was to take the citadel so the reapers could enter the galaxy. Without him, they had to slowly get out of dark space but once they did, there was no longer an immediate importance to taking the citadel.

As is seen in ME3, first they obliterate and cripple the homeworlds, then they bring the citadel to each homeworld to process the species into new reapers.

They built the citadel and apparently they can control it, and given the fact that they didn't seem to control the citadel in ME1 I'll assume it requires many reapers in close proximity in order to manipulate the motion of the citadel.

So they didn't attack the citadel, because that's where they need to process everyone. Much smarter to wait for all species to evacuate from their respective homeworlds and collect the majority of them on the citadel. Speeds up the reaperifying process.

1) According to Vigil the Citadel is the perfect trap it is the seat of the government for all of organic life, the Reapers come in from dark space and shut down all the relays. So there was an importance to taking the Citadel, to cripple the government of organics and shutting down all the other relays.

2) They would still have time to obliterate and cripple the homeworlds if all the relays were shut down. With them shut down organics wouldn't be able to move around the galaxy.

 

3) Having to assume is a sign of horrible writing.

4) It still doesn't make sense. Because A) they could go to the citadel shut off all they relays cripple the governements of the organics. (You know the whole point of ME1)

 B ) then take the citadel with them from planet to planet reaperifying the species one by one all with the entire Reaper fleet. They have all the time in the galaxy to waste, they didn't need to spread out their numbers on all the home worlds. I just do not understand it at all

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

Other factors. The reapers aren't used to being beat. They don't care about turning relays off because they're arrogant.

Also Drew Karpyshyn's dark energy plot would contradict Sovereign's speech "we are beyond your comprehension"

If we can understand the Reapers in their actions and motives then that premise is broken.

Really? Because this new plot doesn't contradict anything.

Arrogance  .................ok if thats what they are then they are also stupid, just like the whole story in the third game.

But we do understand their actions and motives, they were built by some sea creates to preserve life and they misinterpreted their programming (like that has never been done before an AI misinterpreting its program) and makes organic life into reapers to "Preserve" them.

[Linkenski]

The writing flaws started in ME1. There was a lot of assuming back then too once you start looking as deep as you're doing right now. Yeah, sure arguably ME2 took the most fatal turns for the overarching plot in the wrong way, but simultaneously it established key characters and world building that paved way for arguably the best moments of ME3.

People are only right when they say ME3 was 99% good because it's not before the last 10 minutes that the actual narrative coherence is lost. There are numerous errors along the way, even in ME1, where Saren contradicts Sovereign by saying that reapers need organics, or the fact that Saren needed to open the control panel on the citadel, so why find the conduit when he already was a spectre before he started shooting himself in the foot? The only answer you can come up with there, will need some assumptions as well.

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

The writing flaws started in ME1. There was a lot of assuming back then too once you start looking as deep as you're doing right now. Yeah, sure arguably ME2 took the most fatal turns for the overarching plot in the wrong way, but simultaneously it established key characters and world building that paved way for arguably the best moments of ME3.

People are only right when they say ME3 was 99% good because it's not before the last 10 minutes that the actual narrative coherence is lost. There are numerous errors along the way, even in ME1, where Saren contradicts Sovereign by saying that reapers need organics, or the fact that Saren needed to open the control panel on the citadel, so why find the conduit when he already was a spectre before he started shooting himself in the foot? The only answer you can come up with there, will need some assumptions as well.

Saren is being indoctrinated so he thinks the Reapers need organics because thats how Sovereign gets him to help him. Saren and Sovereign couldn't storm the Citadel by themselves or they would be killed. They needed the geth as an army to help Sovereign open the Citadels mass relay to dark space. Saren needed the conduit to use it as a back door into the citadel so he could close the citadel around Sovereign while the Reaper begins opening the mass relay

And I am not looking that deep. Its pretty damn obvious

[MrFob]

Hey, cool subsection, never saw it before. Is it new?

 

On topic: My explanation goes like this:

 

Usually the reapers would use the keepers to open the citadel relay and jump in. At this point, they take everyone by surprise and immediately take over the citadel. All is good for the reapers.

 

However, this time, they had to come into the galaxy from the outside. They still tried to get directly and surprisingly to the citadel through the alpha relay but that plan was messed up by Shep in Arrival.

 

So now, they would have to go there the normal route, at which point the citadel would have some advanced warning of an attack and could close the Citadel arms. Even when Sovereign conducted a surprise attack in ME1, he barely made t inside, the reapers in ME3 must figure that none of them coul make it in there in time.

 

Since - once closed - the citadel is impenetrable (quantum shielded) the reapers are screwed. Even they can't overcome this obstacle. Also, Citadel or no, they do have overwhelming force one way or another, so they do go for the home-worlds of the Citadel races instead. At the same time, they rather try to get someone on the inside. First attempt is the Cerberus coup (although it is unclear if this was actually initiated by the reapers themselves, I doubt it or it would have made sense for them to attack at that point, so it was likely TIM's/Udina's own initiative). That fails as well. Second attempt is to get TIM there while the alliance is busy attacking Cerberus HQ. This time it works and they do take over.

 

This is he only way, it makes sense to me that the reapers are not going after the Citadel. Basically, they are afraid that the organics will close it and fortify it, which would cause them more problems than just ignoring it for the time being. Of course, all this is sort of dependent on the fat that star kid for whatever reason doesn't have control over the Citadel, except for his little elevator to heaven (but let's not go to the ending for now).

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

Hey, cool subsection, never saw it before. Is it new?

 

On topic: My explanation goes like this:

 

Usually the reapers would use the keepers to open the citadel relay and jump in. At this point, they take everyone by surprise and immediately take over the citadel. All is good for the reapers.

 

However, this time, they had to come into the galaxy from the outside. They still tried to get directly and surprisingly to the citadel through the alpha relay but that plan was messed up by Shep in Arrival.

 

So now, they would have to go there the normal route, at which point the citadel would have some advanced warning of an attack and could close the Citadel arms. Even when Sovereign conducted a surprise attack in ME1, he barely made t inside, the reapers in ME3 must figure that none of them coul make it in there in time.

 

Since - once closed - the citadel is impenetrable (quantum shielded) the reapers are screwed. Even they can't overcome this obstacle. Also, Citadel or no, they do have overwhelming force one way or another, so they do go for the home-worlds of the Citadel races instead. At the same time, they rather try to get someone on the inside. First attempt is the Cerberus coup (although it is unclear if this was actually initiated by the reapers themselves, I doubt it or it would have made sense for them to attack at that point, so it was likely TIM's/Udina's own initiative). That fails as well. Second attempt is to get TIM there while the alliance is busy attacking Cerberus HQ. This time it works and they do take over.

 

This is he only way, it makes sense to me that the reapers are not going after the Citadel. Basically, they are afraid that the organics will close it and fortify it, which would cause them more problems than just ignoring it for the time being. Of course, all this is sort of dependent on the fat that star kid for whatever reason doesn't have control over the Citadel, except for his little elevator to heaven (but let's not go to the ending for now).

That makes a little more sense but I frankly do not buy it. With all the combined reapers I think they could get to the Citadel and open it, they built the damn thing, plus star kid is there why doesn't he just keep it open until the reapers get inside and start closing relays down? As you said lets not get into that. And I do no think it is imprenetrable, that was what organics thought with their current technology, not with the much more advanced Reaper tech.

[capn233]

I agree.  Why didn't the Reapers just take the eagles to the Citadel?

 

Also you could potentially count the Cerberus Coup as their first attempt in ME3 to take it.

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

I agree.  Why didn't the Reapers just take the eagles to the Citadel?

 

Also you could potentially count the Cerberus Coup as their first attempt in ME3 to take it.

Because the Emperor has a shield generator on the moon of Endor's surface duh

[themikefest]

ME3 is the third game and its the game to start playing the trilogy. ME1 and ME2 never existed. They don't matter.

 

Had they taken the Citadel at the beginning, the game would be about 15 minutes long and most of that would be showing the credits.

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

ME3 is the third game and its the game to start playing the trilogy. ME1 and ME2 never existed. They don't matter.

 

Had they taken the Citadel at the beginning, the game would be about 15 minutes long and most of that would be showing the credits.

That would have been a better plot.

But there are ways that could have worked if they reapers did take the citadel and shut down the relays. Like the cipher that is in Shepards head. It was prothean and it could have the answers to unlocking relays considering the fact that the protheans built a relay. So as the game went on Shepard would unlock more of the cipher, thus unlocking more relays!

[Valmar]

First general lore discussion topic and its focused on ME3. Interesting.

 

Most people are wrong when they say ME3 was good for 99% then the ending sucked. The writing started sucking back in ME2 but lets not go that far.

 

"Sucking" is purely subjective. Therefore no one can really be wrong. They just have different opinions than you.

 

 

The whole point of the first game was to stop Sovereign from reaching the Citadel and opening it as a relay to dark space where all the other reapers where here they explain that they could shut down all the relays and cripple the organics war effort. Well why didn't star child just do it? Another plot hole the size of Lisa Ann's birth canal.

 

Indeed why did the star child not do that. Though this is a problem of the ending specifically.

 

 

But back to ME3. If the reapers just attack the Citadel first they could have shut down all the relays cutting off any way for anyone to move around the galaxy and thus winning the war. IT MAKES NO SENSE. I would like to sit down with Mr. Walters and ask these questions because I have lots.

 

 

The real answer is very simple and not something you'd like. The reason the reapers don't attack the citadel immediately is because its a video game and if the game was really over the moment the intro began... well, thats no fun. Certain liberties are to be expected. To have a more in-lore explanation one of the best ones I can come up with is the fact that the reapers are patient and gradually making their way to the Citadel. We see them slowly closing in towards it during the course of the game.

 

Another thing to consider is that the species currently controlling the Citadel do not realize its significance. Oh sure, Shepard knows, but lets face it... the council hasn't been paying attention to any of it. If the Council manages to predict the reapers rushing in they might be able to close the arms before the reapers can 'dock'. Sovereign barely made it. If they don't get in before the arms close then the reapers are in a bit of a pickle. 

 

Attacking their homeworlds causes them to divert focus to protecting their planets, underestimating the worth of the citadel. Everyone's more focus to protecting their own homeworlds than they protecting some space station. So with all the governments striving to protect their worlds their security on the citadel lessens and the reapers are given a chance to swoop in and take it before they have a chance to act since they're more focused on their worlds.

 

Also consider the reapers tried taking the Citadel without risking themselves by working through Cerberus.

 

 

See now it made a little bit more sense if they stuck to Drew Karpyshyn original plot of the reapers needing to find a way to stop the spread of dark energy by going to earth and making a human reaper because they were running out of time, and they believe humans were the way to stop it.

Still sucks the big one but it made sense why they would needed to go to earth before doing anything.

 

I completely disagree. I do not see, in anyway, why the reapers avoiding the citadel would make any more sense with that ending over the current one. If they took the Citadel they could trap humans in their system and be able to harvest them at their leisure.

 

 

 

Sovereign's plan was to take the citadel so the reapers could enter the galaxy. Without him, they had to slowly get out of dark space but once they did, there was no longer an immediate importance to taking the citadel.

 

 

The reaper's plan of attack for all the cycles up until now, to the best of our knowledge, hinged on them taking the citadel and trapping us in our own systems. They attacked us system-by-system, one by one. We are stranded and left at their mercy. Personally I still view it significant enough to be called "immediate importance" in that context.

 

That being said... time is an illusion. The reaper war didn't even last a year. It lasted for a couple months. This is a species that transcends time. To them perhaps a few months IS immediate. They don't have the same standard of measurement of time significance that we do. They've been doing this for a billion years, afterall. In relation to that I imagine a couple months is just a blink of the eye.

 

So they didn't attack the citadel, because that's where they need to process everyone. Much smarter to wait for all species to evacuate from their respective homeworlds and collect the majority of them on the citadel. Speeds up the reaperifying process.

 

I don't understand your argument. All of the species to evacuate their homeworlds? The majority going to the citadel? Just how many organics do you think exist in the cycle that the 'majority' could actually be held on the Citadel? The Citadel couldn't come anyway even remotely close to holding our species. Statistically I believe more humans are born every day than there is room on the citadel to hold, even if quarian-conditions. Our entire species could evacuate but theres no way they could all turn to the citadel to house them. Just isn't enough room.

 

Also Drew Karpyshyn's dark energy plot would contradict Sovereign's speech "we are beyond your comprehension"

If we can understand the Reapers in their actions and motives then that premise is broken.

 

Proud to say I broke the premise then.
 

 

Anyway that is as far as I'm reading into the topic so some other posts might have addressed these things.

 

[Googlesaurus]

That would have been a better plot.

But there are ways that could have worked if they reapers did take the citadel and shut down the relays. Like the cipher that is in Shepards head. It was prothean and it could have the answers to unlocking relays considering the fact that the protheans built a relay. So as the game went on Shepard would unlock more of the cipher, thus unlocking more relays!

 

The Cipher did not implant any significant technical knowledge. It allowed him to interpret Prothean culture, memories, and language by transmitting something akin to a cultural matrix into his brain. It would have not granted him the sufficient scientific knowledge to unlock or create a relay of his own.

[Valmar]

The Cipher did not implant any significant technical knowledge. It allowed him to interpret Prothean culture, memories, and language by transmitting something akin to a cultural matrix into his brain. It would have not granted him the sufficient scientific knowledge to unlock or create a relay of his own.

 

True, it didn't. That doesn't mean it couldn't have done so, though. That kind of premise already exists in the lore.

[Googlesaurus]

True, it didn't. That doesn't mean it couldn't have done so, though. That kind of premise already exists in the lore.

 

A Prothean beacon could transmit the necessary information into Shepard's mind. However, even with the Cipher it would be a stretch for him to understand it. It's not like the Protheans turned each other into scientists simply by touching beacons. They still had to acquire the immense domain knowledge and the comprehension independently through standard means.  

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

A Prothean beacon could transmit the necessary information into Shepard's mind. However, even with the Cipher it would be a stretch for him to understand it. It's not like the Protheans turned each other into scientists simply by touching beacons. They still had to acquire the immense domain knowledge and the comprehension independently through standard means.  

He doesn't need to understand it. Thats what Javik is for.

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

First general lore discussion topic and its focused on ME3. Interesting.

 

 

"Sucking" is purely subjective. Therefore no one can really be wrong. They just have different opinions than you.

 

 

 

Indeed why did the star child not do that. Though this is a problem of the ending specifically.

 

 

 

The real answer is very simple and not something you'd like. The reason the reapers don't attack the citadel immediately is because its a video game and if the game was really over the moment the intro began... well, thats no fun. Certain liberties are to be expected. To have a more in-lore explanation one of the best ones I can come up with is the fact that the reapers are patient and gradually making their way to the Citadel. We see them slowly closing in towards it during the course of the game.

 

Another thing to consider is that the species currently controlling the Citadel do not realize its significance. Oh sure, Shepard knows, but lets face it... the council hasn't been paying attention to any of it. If the Council manages to predict the reapers rushing in they might be able to close the arms before the reapers can 'dock'. Sovereign barely made it. If they don't get in before the arms close then the reapers are in a bit of a pickle. 

 

Attacking their homeworlds causes them to divert focus to protecting their planets, underestimating the worth of the citadel. Everyone's more focus to protecting their own homeworlds than they protecting some space station. So with all the governments striving to protect their worlds their security on the citadel lessens and the reapers are given a chance to swoop in and take it before they have a chance to act since they're more focused on their worlds.

 

Also consider the reapers tried taking the Citadel without risking themselves by working through Cerberus.

 

 

 

I completely disagree. I do not see, in anyway, why the reapers avoiding the citadel would make any more sense with that ending over the current one. If they took the Citadel they could trap humans in their system and be able to harvest them at their leisure.

 

 

 

 

The reaper's plan of attack for all the cycles up until now, to the best of our knowledge, hinged on them taking the citadel and trapping us in our own systems. They attacked us system-by-system, one by one. We are stranded and left at their mercy. Personally I still view it significant enough to be called "immediate importance" in that context.

 

That being said... time is an illusion. The reaper war didn't even last a year. It lasted for a couple months. This is a species that transcends time. To them perhaps a few months IS immediate. They don't have the same standard of measurement of time significance that we do. They've been doing this for a billion years, afterall. In relation to that I imagine a couple months is just a blink of the eye.

 

 

I don't understand your argument. All of the species to evacuate their homeworlds? The majority going to the citadel? Just how many organics do you think exist in the cycle that the 'majority' could actually be held on the Citadel? The Citadel couldn't come anyway even remotely close to holding our species. Statistically I believe more humans are born every day than there is room on the citadel to hold, even if quarian-conditions. Our entire species could evacuate but theres no way they could all turn to the citadel to house them. Just isn't enough room.

 

 

Proud to say I broke the premise then.
 

 

Anyway that is as far as I'm reading into the topic so some other posts might have addressed these things.

 

Most of these things I have adressed. I think

[themikefest]

He doesn't need to understand it. Thats what Javik is for.

What if he's not recruited?

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

What if he's not recruited?

Then you could write in that Liara found the information in the Mars bunker!  

They pulled that crap out of no where too. Its a little too convenient that after decades and decades of humans going through the Mars bunker information that they would never find mention of the crucible.

Or you could, you know, had it to where he had to be in the squad, just like James the boy from jersey shore

[john181818]

My story, and I am sticking to it, was that it was a damn fine game to play and I am not going to worry about any inconsistencies that some folks perceive.

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

My story, and I am sticking to it, was that it was a damn fine game to play and I am not going to worry about any inconsistencies that some folks perceive.

Thats fine with me. Its just this is the first game series where I cared about what was really going on in its universe. And to have it be mishandled, at least in my mind, is sad to me. I understand that they were probably rushed and have dead lines and didn't have the ability to do everything they wanted to with the game. But when they sat down way back in 2005 or 2006, whatever year it was they came up with this series I am sure they had a very rough outline as to what the story was. And to not stick with it doesn't make sense to me.

EDIT

 

I guess I do not know for sure that they changed it from the beginning but they did change it from what Drew's idea was

[Googlesaurus]

He doesn't need to understand it. Thats what Javik is for.

 

Javik would not know it. He was raised as a warrior, not a scientist. Giving him that knowledge would require compromising his character for the sake of plot. The later ME installations had a little too much of that stuff going on already. 

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

Javik would not know it. He was raised as a warrior, not a scientist. Giving him that knowledge would require compromising his character for the sake of plot. The later ME installations had a little too much of that stuff going on already. 

He would understand what the protheans where trying say in the cipher and he could give that information to scientists.

Or he could not be a warrior but a scientist, I am just throwing things out there.

I am not trying to say I have all the answers, I am just saying that having the Reapers not go to citadel and shut down all the relays first is stupid. Then when you find out that the star child was there all along and could have done this to begin with it becomes even more stupid

[Googlesaurus]

He would understand what the protheans where trying say in the cipher and he could give that information to scientists.

Or he could not be a warrior but a scientist, I am just throwing things out there.

I am not trying to say I have all the answers, I am just saying that having the Reapers not go to citadel and shut down all the relays first is stupid. Then when you find out that the star child was there all along and could have done this to begin with it becomes even more stupid

 

That's more a combination of throwing Cthulhu-esque entities together with a non-relevant plot (ME2). If the Reapers went for the optimal approach straight off the bat, the game would've ended 5 minutes in.