That's more a combination of throwing Cthulhu-esque entities together with a non-relevant plot (ME2). If the Reapers went for the optimal approach straight off the bat, the game would've ended 5 minutes in.
Did we just come full circle? Isn't that exactly what themikefest said already, to which I started talking about the cipher?
Maybe its not what you mean, all of this makes my head hurt. I just think the third game was rushed and poorly written
That makes a little more sense but I frankly do not buy it. With all the combined reapers I think they could get to the Citadel and open it, they built the damn thing, plus star kid is there why doesn't he just keep it open until the reapers get inside and start closing relays down? As you said lets not get into that. And I do no think it is imprenetrable, that was what organics thought with their current technology, not with the much more advanced Reaper tech.
Well, that comes down to the argument of "my headcannon is better than yours". I personally prefer the ones that solve problems, rather than creating them but to each their own.
Well, that comes down to the argument of "my headcannon is better than yours". I am pretty contempt with mine. You go ahead and tear your hair out about the issue though. Have fun.
It is fun! 
I really didn't mean it as a personal shot to you. Some people are fine with the way it is. Thats fine with me. I am just rambling on about a 3 (almost) year old game that I still think was badly written. Isn't that what these boards are for?
Did we just come full circle? Isn't that exactly what themikefest said already, to which I started talking about the cipher?
Maybe its not what you mean, all of this makes my head hurt. I just think the third game was rushed and poorly written
That's what he said. I'm pointing out that the writers had little choice in the matter. You had zero power in ME2 to inform the Council (who were made obstinate for the sake of obstinance), the Salarian STG, other Spectres. Alliance command, or anyone else besides Cerberus. Any plot that had the Reapers head immediately for the Citadel would have to end in their victory; no galactic races besides the Rachni and the geth accepted the Reapers' existence, and they wouldn't have been in position to do squat about it. Many of the plotting issues in ME3 were directly caused by bad judgments in ME2's storyline.
That's what he said. I'm pointing out that the writers had little choice in the matter. You had zero power in ME2 to inform the Council (who were made obstinate for the sake of obstinance), the Salarian STG, other Spectres. Alliance command, or anyone else besides Cerberus. Any plot that had the Reapers head immediately for the Citadel would have to end in their victory; no galactic races besides the Rachni and the geth accepted the Reapers' existence, and they wouldn't have been in position to do squat about it. Many of the plotting issues in ME3 were directly caused by bad judgments in ME2's storyline.
You are probably right, but I feel they could have found a work around that problem, but they probably didn't have the time or effort to care about such a thing. And I agree ME2 is the beginning of the bad writing like I said in my first post
But can you at least see where I am coming from? That from inside of the ME universe without stepping outside the forth wall with the writters that it didn't make sense to not go for the Citadel first?
A Prothean beacon could transmit the necessary information into Shepard's mind. However, even with the Cipher it would be a stretch for him to understand it. It's not like the Protheans turned each other into scientists simply by touching beacons.
Actually... they probably could. Javik tells us that memories, knowledge and experience are all biological markers that can be shared. Complex ideas can be shared with a single touch. They created technology that takes advantage of this. They can store memories and experiences on hardware and transfer it into your mind with just a touch. So yeah, its totally within the lore parameters for such an event to take place. Hell even the reapers are a respective collection of all the knowledge of past cycles that have been harvested.
Most of these things I have adressed. I think
Okay. /thread
My story, and I am sticking to it, was that it was a damn fine game to play and I am not going to worry about any inconsistencies that some folks perceive.
I agree with the overall sentiment but will point out that its disingenuous to word it as if its just inconsistency some folks perceive. Many of the inconsistencies are objectively, factually accurate.
I guess I do not know for sure that they changed it from the beginning but they did change it from what Drew's idea was
I think its important to remember to take these things into context. Infact I believe Drew himself even tried to make that point clear. The Dark Energy ending was just /one/ idea. Not THE idea. It was just one possible idea that Drew himself mentions was vague and not actually fleshed out anywhere beyond a general idea.
Maybe its not what you mean, all of this makes my head hurt. I just think the third game was rushed and poorly written
Well if we really want to nitpick the details, the writing had problems throughout the entire trilogy. ME3's overall story wasn't any worse than the story writing done in ME2, for example. We suspend belief on a lot of things. The ending itself WAS rushed and poorly written (by one guy without any oversight or peer-review) but it was so poorly written in comparison to everything else that it stands out, which is why it usually takes the blunt of the complaints.... though misunderstanding and misconceptions of the ending also plays a big part in it, unfortunately.
My explanation is based on what 'shutting down the relays' means. Does it mean switching them all off, or locking them down so only the Reapers can use them? The second answer makes more sense to me, but they accomplish that by using their IFFs to gain access to the relays. Once organics got their hands on an IFF (which Reaper arrogance never considered possible), the cat was out of the bag and there was no way of locking down the relays. Therefore, there was no need to hit the Citadel first to issue a lockdown command.
I have to imagine that they locked out all systems rather than make it exclusive to the reapers. While making it only accept reapers would make sense it doesn't fit well in the story so far, imo. The protheans were stranded in their individual systems. If it was a matter of just smacking a reaper IFF in your ship I have to believe the protheans would had figured it out and accomplished it at some point, yet we never hear about that.
That being said look what happens in the end. The reapers take over the relay network, if we are to believe the galaxy map, and lock out all relay links except for those that lead to earth. One could assume this is so the reapers not in the Sol system can still get there. A door that only works in one direction, essentially. Though I don't know how well this would actually work in practice since relays are not direct paths and, depending on location, you have to take multiple relays to reach Sol. So it's possible that was just a gameplay choice to make sure the player focuses on earth. Kind of like an invisible wall for the galaxy map.
1) According to Vigil the Citadel is the perfect trap it is the seat of the government for all of organic life, the Reapers come in from dark space and shut down all the relays. So there was an importance to taking the Citadel, to cripple the government of organics and shutting down all the other relays.
2) They would still have time to obliterate and cripple the homeworlds if all the relays were shut down. With them shut down organics wouldn't be able to move around the galaxy.
3) Having to assume is a sign of horrible writing.
4) It still doesn't make sense. Because A) they could go to the citadel shut off all they relays cripple the governements of the organics. (You know the whole point of ME1)
B ) then take the citadel with them from planet to planet reaperifying the species one by one all with the entire Reaper fleet. They have all the time in the galaxy to waste, they didn't need to spread out their numbers on all the home worlds. I just do not understand it at all
The horrible writing started long before ME3.
It is fun!
I really didn't mean it as a personal shot to you. Some people are fine with the way it is. Thats fine with me. I am just rambling on about a 3 (almost) year old game that I still think was badly written. Isn't that what these boards are for?
Haha, nah, it's ok. I am sorry actually. I read through my own post after writing and realized I came off a bit douche-y, so I edited my post right after writing it. You quoted me too fast though. 
As I said, to each their own.
That being said look what happens in the end. The reapers take over the relay network, if we are to believe the galaxy map, and lock out all relay links except for those that lead to earth. One could assume this is so the reapers not in the Sol system can still get there. A door that only works in one direction, essentially.
The galaxy map is really more of a gameplay element than something I'd rely on to give accurate information. Especially since clusters randomly opening (or closing as in this case) happens numerous times before, for no apparent reason.
The Idea that the IFF is responsible for the (or rather a very limited) free Ship-travel is something I actually expected to see in ME3, but sadly there is no indication of that (quite the opposite actually, with pretty much every ship still having the capabilities to traverse the mass relays)
Yes - The Star Child really messed with the whole Conduit plot. IT is my ego defense mechanism from that.
I don't really think ME2 had a weird or bad plot, unless I'm just completely missing something. It may not have been super galaxy-changing (well, except for delaying the reapers and setting up all the important characters), but it was a solid set of personal stories which fleshed out the ME universe far more than ME 1 did. I was lucky enough to play all three in a row without delays, and I cannot tell you how refreshing it was to get out of semi-generic space bioware land (aka first half of ME1) and really get into a unique universe.
If the reapers have 20 000 ships, which I don't believe they do, all they had to do was post about 100 at each relay preventing organics ships from leaving or entering the system and a have 100 hundred surrounding the Citadel preventing ships from entering or leaving while the rest harvest the planets.
Enough to blacken the sky of every world!
And here's another falsehood presented in the game. During wartime, especially wars for survival, no one worries about economies. Only victors worry about collecting the spoils of war. That projection about economic collapse after 1 year was completely bogus. They would just print money and deficit spend, build ships and more ships until they could build them anymore and worry about the costs after it was over. Then with the mass relays damaged, try to collect. Rebuilding afterward for survival would also be massive deficit spending. Then there would be a resolution passed by the Council forgiving debt incurred during wartime. Debt of hundreds of trillions of credits would be too much for any government or people to bear.
The bad writing occurs because if the reapers weren't made into a bunch of dumb asses, i.e. dumber than Shepard and the Council, it would have been a very short game.
Defense Ministry: The reapers are past the moon.
Blah blah blah.
Anderson: You must get to the Council and get help.
Shepard: Will do, Sir.
Joker: Uh, we can't ma'am. The reapers have the mass relay interdicted.
Shepard: Damn! We'll have to use our FTL drive.
Joker: We don't have enough fuel and EDI says it will take several years, and there is a high probability that we might not find suitable planets to discharge or refuel.
Shepard: Damn! We're screwed. Looks like the fight's here, Anderson.
Anderson: I was born in London, you know.
Hackett: Shepard, Liara is on Mars... garble garble garble. She says she might have found plans to defeat the reapers. *big explosion* *screams* Get it. I'm trapped in this system.
Shepard: lol. At least there's some blue nookie before I die. Joker, set a course for Mars.
* Game Over *
Actually... they probably could. Javik tells us that memories, knowledge and experience are all biological markers that can be shared. Complex ideas can be shared with a single touch. They created technology that takes advantage of this. They can store memories and experiences on hardware and transfer it into your mind with just a touch. So yeah, its totally within the lore parameters for such an event to take place. Hell even the reapers are a respective collection of all the knowledge of past cycles that have been harvested.
"Complex ideas" is a common placeholder to avoid the unpredictable scaling of domain knowledge. Sometimes new concepts have little effect on the overall body, other times they fundamentally change the understanding of the domain. It's one thing to transmit a comprehensive understanding of Prothean honor, it's another to do the same with extremely complex procedures that require knowing lots and lots of other things to do correctly. And even if the knowledge was successfully sent through, it doesn't mean the receiver can figure out an iota of it. Prothean technology doesn't imbue skill sets like abstract thinking. Shepard could have had all knowledge pertaining to Alcubierre drives (which is basically what FTL travel is in ME) send into his brain, and it would be useless to him.
Also, if the Protheans were capable of transmitting that much information without decay, ME1's plot is a waste of time.
Let's not even get into how Javik's claim is the equivalent of "a wizard did it".
Yes - The Star Child really messed with the whole Conduit plot. IT is my ego defense mechanism from that.
I don't really think ME2 had a weird or bad plot, unless I'm just completely missing something. It may not have been super galaxy-changing (well, except for delaying the reapers and setting up all the important characters), but it was a solid set of personal stories which fleshed out the ME universe far more than ME 1 did. I was lucky enough to play all three in a row without delays, and I cannot tell you how refreshing it was to get out of semi-generic space bioware land (aka first half of ME1) and really get into a unique universe.
That was the problem. It was a vignette of personal stories attached to a plot-line which was, at best, tangential to the Reapers. In isolation I would contend it was the best game of the trilogy, but it was disastrous in terms of moving the main plot forward.
"Complex ideas" is a common placeholder to avoid the unpredictable scaling of domain knowledge. Sometimes new concepts have little effect on the overall body, other times they fundamentally change the understanding of the domain. It's one thing to transmit a comprehensive understanding of Prothean honor, it's another to do the same with extremely complex procedures that require knowing lots and lots of other things to do correctly. And even if the knowledge was successfully sent through, it doesn't mean the receiver can figure out an iota of it. Prothean technology doesn't imbue skill sets like abstract thinking. Shepard could have had all knowledge pertaining to Alcubierre drives (which is basically what FTL travel is in ME) send into his brain, and it would be useless to him.
Also, if the Protheans were capable of transmitting that much information without decay, ME1's plot is a waste of time.
Let's not even get into how Javik's claim is the equivalent of "a wizard did it".
Wizard or not, it's possible in the MEVerse. You're applying a bit too much scrutiny to this, I feel. Coincidentally, our language isn't exactly easy and he can learn that by a touch. Whereas Shepard gets memories in return from Javik. Shepard was even able to learn the prothean language from the beacon in the first game.
"Imparting experience through touch. Complicated ideas could be absorbed in seconds. We evolved as hunters; reading a thousand details in our environment ensured our survival. Later, we developed technology to harness our ability. Information could be stored in certain objects through touch. Memory has its own bio-marker, its own chemistry. As does knowledge and skills. The beacons could remember these things."
Plus, again, look at the reapers themselves. They are able to harvest and preserve all the collective intelligence and knowledge of organics. Each reaper is a billion organic minds linked together. The virtual aliens, the asari, the rachni, the thorian... all these have elements of this ability to extract knowledge from the minds of others. So having someone become a scientist by having information and understanding implanted into their head by a beacon is not unheard of. Indeed I'd say in the MEVerse its absolutely possible.
As for ME1's plot being a waste of time... the catalyst did enough damage to it already, don't you think? At anyrate, if Shepard and the other races were prothean then sure, baddabing baddaboom. The reason Shepard didn't fully grasp everything the beacon was trying to tell him isn't because the beacon cannot send that type of information but rather because Shepard is human and the beacon was designed specifically to work with protheans. Who are quite different from us, needless to say.
Note that Javik is even appalled that humans didn't do more with the warnings because of it but Shepard explained that no one could make sense of them. This isn't because complex ideas cannot be transfer but rather because the hardware was programmed to work for protheans, not humans. A prothean would have had no trouble receiving all that data coherently.
I think the Reapers didn't attack the Citadel first, because the Citadel can still be locked up before the Reapers could reach it. Forcing them to destroy it and their creator in order to get inside. If you can't use the Citadel to win the war, and risk destroying your creator in the process, then there's no point in attaching it first. Better to attach everyone's homeworld, to make the fleets separate and less focused.
I think the only thing that stopped that situation was when TIM went to the Citadel before the Reapers took over. He might've done something to stop the Citadel from closing its doors. Once TIM tipped the Reapers on the Citadel being the key, they were only forced to take it back when they learned the connection the crucible had with it.
That, or they're just stupid.
As for the Citadel not being attacked right away. There are of course plot reasons to consider but also this: After the events of Mass Effect 1 Security on the inside and outside was tightened, which you can easily rectify by speaking to Captain Bailey during the Assasins loyalty mission ( me and names, ugh ), where he goes on to tell us that a human fleet was guarding the citadel for months and in essence still is. While he doesn´t say anything about the turian fleet and the asari one, we can assume at least a token force. We do know that the Destiny Ascension is or was on a victory cruise through the systems in ME2. Attacking the citadel right away was not the safest course of action. Vigil on Ilos also states that the Reapers are not known for being careless or impatient. Strategically its far more sound to go after the homeworlds first and draw forces away from the citadel.
And as to the catalyst: One possible explanation for it not being active: Again, Reapers are not known for being careless. That trait most likely applies to the catalyst as well. A malevolent active AI is bound to be found sooner or later. Instead its highly likely that the reaper sending the signal to the keepers to activate the relay also wakes up the catalyst (the keepers do that, not the reaper). When the cycle is over and the citadels relay is closed the catalyst enters into a hibernating state again. In my head I even went as far as having the catalyst disassemble its code after a cycle and reassembling it on activation of the citadel to even further hinder the likelihood of detection.
Just my 2c. Eurocents btw.
So, why should he control the Citadel. He's just the AI that created the Reapers. The Citadel is part of him, just like my Hair is part of my body. Do I control when my hair does & does not grow? No, I don't. Sure, I get it, it does seem strange & seems like a plot hole. But c'mon this is all science fiction/fantasy. Yeah, they could've taken more time & come up with something that makes a little more sense. But just think of the Catalyst as being the AI that created the Reapers & embodies the collective intelligence of all Reapers. The Citadel is part of him, but to maintain his secrecy he needs to give up that level of direct control. He can't risk detection just to have control over the station. & why would he need it when he has a fleet of possibly 20,000 Reapers (1 billion divided by 50k. But the cycle wasn't always 50,00 years. & we don't know how long exactly they've been around. But it is at least 1 Billion years, thanks to the Leviathan of Dis) that can do his handy work for him. If the Catalyst can control everything on the Citadel, then the Reapers plan B is unnecessary also. Why send Saren if the Catalyst can just open it up himself? Odds are He's dormant until the Citadel is 'activated' by the Reapers. It could also keep him hidden. 50,000 is a long time for races to go snooping & accidentally discover things they shouldn't. So it's not hard to imagine the Catalyst is very deeply hidden between cycles. He is still a machine after all.
The hair analogy isn't really suitable for the context. Hair is a natural component for us, we had no say in its creation. The Citadel is a reaper creation. The Catalyst existed before the Citadel. It built the Citadel and then stored itself there. Which is reasonable in of itself since its one of the most protected constructs in the galaxy. The catalyst is software, the citadel is hardware. Why wouldn't it have access to citadel controls? Why would it need physical interaction to do anything? The Catalyst is integrated into the Citadel, it is the software in control of everything.
The catalyst actually IS the AI that created all reapers and embodies the collective intelligence of all reapers. If you're implying that is an assumption one should come up with, I mean. This is actually precisely what they say it is in the lore, no speculation there.
The reapers themselves have been around for at least a billion years. The catalyst has been around longer than that. Deep time at its finest.
Sure, the catalyst could had just been dormant the entire time. Infact this the only explanation that one can really use for it. That doesn't mean its a good explanation. It's an AI, it doesn't need to sleep or rest. It doesn't need to conserve energy, its built on a giant space station that powers itself indefinitely. Boredom isn't something an AI needs to worry about. Time is an illusion. 50k years is meaningless to an immortal construct that isn't hindered by time. It makes sense for it to use the keepers for physical maintenance but when it comes to activating the Citadel's relay... this is a software issue. Sovereign was going to override the systems and take control, yet its clear he wasn't doing so with his tentacles manipulating a console. Its not like he had to tweak knobs and turn dials. He just had to establish a connection and the rest is done through software.
Infact how does Shepard open the arms of the Citadel? By using a program Vigil provided. Access with hardware means sure but its still all software ultimately in control. Think of it this way. We use mice and keyboards to interact with our computers. I cannot type without a keyboard, I cannot launch programs with a mouse (don't take me too literally) yet the mouse and keyboard are not REALLY what is control of it. The OS handles everything. The software is the real power. The hardware we use just lets us wield it. We can install voice programs that telegraph our speech to make the keyboard unnecessary. The software has control.
Look at the Geth. They're nothing but software. They may store themselves on servers but they themselves are purely software. They can upload themselves into ships and control the ship. They can upload themselves into mobile platforms and control those. Software has power over hardware. The Catalyst is software. The Citadel is hardware it invented and conjoined with. It doesn't make any sense that it doesn't or wouldn't have any control over such basic functions like toggling a relay network on or off.
Really? Because this new plot doesn't contradict anything.
Arrogance.................ok if thats what they are then they are also stupid, just like the whole story in the third game.
But we do understand their actions and motives, they were built by some sea creates to preserve life and they misinterpreted their programming (like that has never been done before an AI misinterpreting its program) and makes organic life into reapers to "Preserve" them.
yes arrogance is the key here. All superpower are arrogant and don't expect defeat by primitives. The Romans never tought of defeat by barbarians. The British never thought of defeat by a rag-tag militia. The North didn't expect a rout at Antietam, they expected the war to finish right there. The Americans expected a quick victory in Iraq, it turned otherwise.
So yes, it is logical that a superpower's arrogance is close to stupidity and ends up costing them a battle/war. It has happenned before, it will happen again. When people are so confident of their superiority they tend to understimate their adversery.
It happens in history, it happens in fiction (Babylon 5, with the Shadows' modus operandi being very similar to the Reapers'), and it will happen again in humanity's history and fiction work
Now, we understand their actions and motives because the Leviathan told us. Sovereign probably did not imagine that there were Leviathans still living out there, or simply didn't think they would make contact with Shepard and/or even pose a threat to their plan.
Now, just like the British of the 18th century, the Reapers are confident that they are the superior force, yet they ain't reckless either by risking all their forces in one big open battle with all the races at once when they are outnumbered 1000:1. One wasp ain't much, but a thousand of them could kill you even if you are superior to them in every way. So they act in the shadows, dividing the races, taking them one by one, undermining their effort to form a cohesive resistance force. Also, they may be extremely intelligent machines, but they are just that: machines. Machines have trouble with non-logical assumptions.
And the "star child", being the visual representation of the AI controlling the reaper isn't there to exterminate all the races, he's just there to reap the advanced ones, leaving the other ones to evolve "peacefully" until they reach a critical point in their evolution, that is, when they build intelligent synthetics that begin to rebel against their masters. That also isn't a novel idea in fiction.
I never understood the anger over ME3's ending and the need to spell it out for everyone. I found it ok as it was the first time, without the extra dialogues needed to precise why the Yak weren't invaded and what was the Star Child. The only thing really nice with the extended cut imho, is to explain why Joker was in hyperspace when the mass relays detonated. The fact about hyperspace travel being possible, albeit slower, without mass relays was explained in the first game.
1)Sure, the catalyst could had just been dormant the entire time. Infact this the only explanation that one can really use for it. That doesn't mean its a good explanation. It's an AI, it doesn't need to sleep or rest. It doesn't need to conserve energy, its built on a giant space station that powers itself indefinitely. Boredom isn't something an AI needs to worry about. Time is an illusion. 50k years is meaningless to an immortal construct that isn't hindered by time. It makes sense for it to use the keepers for physical maintenance but when it comes to activating the Citadel's relay... this is a software issue. Sovereign was going to override the systems and take control, yet its clear he wasn't doing so with his tentacles manipulating a console. Its not like he had to tweak knobs and turn dials. He just had to establish a connection and the rest is done through software.
2)
Look at the Geth. They're nothing but software. They may store themselves on servers but they themselves are purely software. They can upload themselves into ships and control the ship. They can upload themselves into mobile platforms and control those. Software has power over hardware. The Catalyst is software. The Citadel is hardware it invented and conjoined with. It doesn't make any sense that it doesn't or wouldn't have any control over such basic functions like toggling a relay network on or off.
1) The Catalyst needs to be dormant so it will not be detected by the Citadel races. They need to believe the Citadel is a "gift" from a previous species that abandonned it for the plan to work (Babylon 5: Babylon Squared, but with a twist 
). It relies on the Keepers to wake it at the proper time, that system as worked before, it would be illogical to change it. Usually, by the time a race discovers the true purpose of the keepers, it's too late for them.
2) The Catalyst was created by the Leviathans who may not have wanted to give it that much control over the Citadel, and it is most likely incapable of going beyond its original programming by itself, otherwise it would have done so and found a better way to deal with the synthetic problem, by taking charge over the entire galaxy and preventing the rise of machines in the first place.
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