560 réponses à ce sujet

[Aren]

I call it being smart rather than selfish after all why commit pointless suicide unless you want to die or don't trust morrigan. I compare it to killing your enemy instead jumping with him from the cliff.     

My Warden killed the Old god and survived (Loghain redemption) the same,it's selfish not smart,you risk to start another Blight,you risk with Flemeth,you risk with Morrigan.

(don't even try to use metagame because it will be worse for your argument)

The Ultimate sacrifice is there for players who wish to kill their warden on purpose for story sake.

I call that stupid if is taken only for survival,if the Warden wish to survive you can try and succeed without a personal sacrifice and without allowng Morrigan to possess that power,the DR was there for story sake not for survival,but in the end they decided to remove

the implications of the choice somehow,so when players say that they are happy that nothing is happened i'm incapable to understand them

(those kind of players don't care about the story or player agency they care only about an off-screen happy ending),is simply Bioware who decided to remove one of their personal choice to follow their default Mhariel,there is nothing to be happy about it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

False,my Warden killed the Old god and survived (Loghain redemption) the same,it's selfish not smart,you risk to start another Blight,you risk with Flemeth,you risk with Morrigan.

(don't even try to use metagame because it will be worse for your argument)

The Ultimate sacrifice is there for players who wish to kill their warden on purpose for story sake.

I call that stupid,if the Warden wish to survive you can try and succeed without a personal sacrifice and without allowng Morrigan to possess that power.

 

False of course, but on your part , someone has to commit suicide if you won't do ritual also there is nothing about starting another blight null of that ,you only preserve untained soul in child nothing more.

 

Again ritual isn't there only to spare your life but also to prevent anyone from dying ,in fact you can volunteer as person that will strike archdemon and still do dark ritual as it would prevent pointless sacrifice.

 

In the end it is far more complex that you and others try to make it and there can be many motivations for every choice.   

[Secret Rare]

False of course, but on your part , someone has to commit suicide if you won't do ritual also there is nothing about starting another blight null of that ,you only preserve untained soul in child nothing more.

 

Again ritual isn't there only to spare your life but also to prevent anyone from dying ,in fact you can volunteer as person that will strike archdemon and still do dark ritual as it would prevent pointless sacrifice.

 

In the end it is far more complex that you and others try to make it and there can be many motivations for every choice.   

NO old god soul= No blight it's a simple equation,

you can argue that Morrigan/Flemeth will keep that soul save from the taint but you decided willingly to avoid responsibility and take a risk(just for 1 single life) instead to finish the Old god with the AD.

Morrigan and Flemeth never reveal to you their plans and Flemeth never reveal to you what she intend to do

(nothing as Riverbanks pointed out it was just swept under the carpet from Bioware but this has nothing to do with the argument that i try to make),you basically rely on faith in the witches.

The Warden is simply blind in this decision,you cannot be smart if you don't know what you're doing(in fact most player use metagaming).

as for volunteer argument,you basically have

(or the game allow you to have) a man that is basically finished,a man that most people kill in an useless way into the landsmeet instead to use him better

(mainly for the Alistair romance)

The sacrifice is not pointless its effect is to kill the old god not just the AD,it is completely different than the DR,it's the final solution to deal with them,this is why i used it to remove that power from the face of Thedas,you're sure that they will not come back.

Give this to Morrigan or Flemeth or risk another blight or the awakening of an ancient god just to save Loghain?

I find that weak that the game doesn't provide to me compelling reason to accept all of these risks(aside from the romances of Morrigan and AListair but as i said i don't care about romances),i have nothing to gain from the DR,is just a favor(madness) that you do for Morrigan or the Old god if you're interested in them or to have different content but in no way Morrigan is doing a favor to your Warden quite the contrary.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

NO old god soul= No blight it's a simple equation,

you can argue that Morrigan/Flemeth will keep that soul save from the taint but you decided willingly to avoid responsibility and take a risk(just for 1 single life) instead to finish the Old god with the AD.

Morrigan and Flemeth never reveal to you their plans and Flemeth never reveal to you what she intend to do

(nothing as Riverbanks pointed out it was just swept under the carpet from Bioware but this has nothing to do with the argument that i try to make),you basically rely on faith in the witches.

The Warden is simply blind in this decision,you cannot be smart if you don't know what you're doing(in fact most player use metagaming).

as for volunteer argument,you basically have

(or the game allow you to have) a man that is basically finished,a man that most people kill in an useless way into the landsmeet instead to use him better

(mainly for the Alistair romance)

The sacrifice is not pointless its effect is to kill the old god not just the AD,it is completely different than the DR,it's the final solution to deal with them,this is why i used it to remove that power from the face of Thedas,you're sure that they will not come back.

Give this to Morrigan or Flemeth or risk another blight or the awakening of an ancient god just to save Loghain?

I find that weak that the game doesn't provide to me compelling reason to accept all of these risks(aside from the romances of Morrigan and AListair but as i said i don't care about romances),i have nothing to gain from the DR,is just a favor(madness) that you do for Morrigan or the Old god if you're interested in them or to have different content but in no way Morrigan is doing a favor to your Warden quite the contrary.

 

In first place you aren't saving archdemon ,you aren't even saving old god you are preserving old god soul.

For blight you need an archdemon to have archdemon you need an old god and darkspawn so they can taint old god.Ritural doesn't provide any of these it provides old god soul so there is no old god for darkspawn to taint in first place.  

 

And? I already said that if you don't trust morrigan you may see ritual as bad thing so i don't know what you tried to prove here.

It is explained what you are doing ,so no you aren't blind when you are making this decision only factor here is whether you trust morrigan or not.

It is pointless for people that trust morrigan i explained that already.In first place you are wrong here as pretty much neither we nor the warden knows if "killing" and archdemons will solve anything outside stoping blight for now ,we already have characters that suggest it may not be good solution.

 

There are many reasons for every choice ,morrigan even used more than one reason including even Li.   

[Illegitimus]

I do agree that this is the true Grey Warden's path. Choosing the DR means your character isn't willing to pay any price to end the Blight.
 

 

I do agree it's the true Grey Warden's path.  But then I have little desire to be a true Grey Warden because the Grey Wardens have a lot of institutional stupidity.  

[Vorathrad]

Not trusting Morrigan isn't the only reason to choose US. You're a Grey Warden and if you don't die killing the archdemon, in a few years you will have to go to the Deep Roads and die killing as many darkspawn as you can. So even if you trust Morrigan, you may decide that those few years extra aren't worth the risk of preserving an old god soul, a risk that not even Morrigan completely understands and whose consequences are unknown even if they are nulified ingame. But you don't know that at the moment of making the decision. You may think that Loghain doesn't deserve redemption and don't want Alistair to take the blow, so you fully assume the responsibility of what you comitted to by joining the Grey Wardens.

And let's not forget that all the info about the Wardens questionable decisions came after Origins; inside the game they were basically these great forgotten heroes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Following that logic no one would care about dying because some day they will die...

 

If you trust morrigan you will belive she won't do anything bad with it what is only unknown when you are making decision ,rest is explained by her.If you want to kill loghain it is your call but you also may not to want send loghain or alistair to die.

 

 

Im not sure what you are talking about here.

[Vorathrad]

You not caring about dying and thus you being willing to sacrifice yourself to kill the archdemon seems the perfect logic for a Grey Warden.

Morrigan barely explais anything, and even though you trust her, you can decide that she doesn't know enough about the old god soul to preserve it without taking great risks.

That is what I'm talking about.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You not caring about dying and thus you being willing to sacrifice yourself to kill the archdemon seems the perfect logic for a Grey Warden.

Morrigan barely explais anything, and even though you trust her, you can decide that she doesn't know enough about the old god soul to preserve it without taking great risks.

That is what I'm talking about.

Rarther for fanatic that kills himself for no reason what at the same time may fit for some grey wardens.

 

Morrigan explains almost everything to you with an exception of her future plans and for rest of this what pretty much means you don't trust morrgian with it... 

 

I meant your last sentence in your previous post.

[Secret Rare]

 

 

Morrigan explains almost everything to you with an exception of her future plans and for rest of this what pretty much means you don't trust morrgian with it... 

 

 

Exactly this,you cannot be trustworthy if you tell lies by omission about your intentions.

I will use metagaming now,basically Morrigan in Redcliffe never reveal to you or say to you that

"the ritual is a means to an end" or "that she intend to prepare the child for what is to come" or that "freedom is what they need most"

(kinda like Anders here)

the only thing she say if the Warden insist is that she will rise the child and teach him to respect from which he came not that she intend to use him for a purpose,i call these lies by omission,because my warden asked to her on what she intended to do.

AT the time reject her was the intelligent thing to do for my Warden.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Exactly this,you cannot be trustworthy if you tell lies by omission about your intentions.

I will use metagaming now,basically Morrigan in Redcliffe never reveal to you or say to you that

"the ritual is a means to an end" or "that she intend to prepare the child for what is to come" or that "freedom is what they need most"

(kinda like Anders here)

the only thing she say if the Warden insist is that she will rise the child and teach him to respect from which he came not that she intend to use him for a purpose,i call these lies by omission,because my warden asked to her on what she intended to do.

AT the time reject her was the intelligent thing to do for my Warden.

 

You rly don't know what to argue about so you argue about random stuff.If you think you can't trust morrigan it is your call and personal opinion.

Also not telling you what she intended isn't lie so i sense strong bias ,anders outright lied to you about whole why he wanted those ingredients when morrigan told you she won't tell you what her further plans were.

[Secret Rare]

 

Also not telling you what she intended isn't lie 

Random stuff? Those words are inherent to the DR and to the Redcliffe events you're falling in a hole here, i only use events that concern the DR.

Nope this argument can only be made in Flemeth case,Flemeth never tell to you why she aided you,but she never lie to you simply because you never ask

(is reasonable the Warden know nothing of this in the beginning).

In Morrigan case, yes they are called lies by omission,because you ask(you have the option to do it) but she deceive you by telling you one thing instead of the truth about the specific question which was

"What do you intend to do with this child i insist!?"

and she respond "I will rise the child apart from the society and teach him to respect from which he came"

while she reveal the truth only when the DR is completed in WH

"the ritual is a means to an end,she will try to develop some destiny for the child,she will prepare him for something or some event"

this means that she do not intend just to rise the child to preserve that sort of power apart from the society,which was what she claimed,she intended to use him somehow .

To make a comparision, there are others cases in which she lied by omission about the DR affair

during her personal quest for example,when she ask to the Warden to kill her mother the game allow to the player to ask this very specific question which was a smart one

"If your mother intend to possess your body,why she sent you with me?"

She respond: "I do not know,maybe she have confidence about my ability,maybe she wish to prepare the ritual that will allow her to possess me"

the last part which is pure speculation from Morrigan part may be true,still she lie to the specific question,whom correct answer should have been

"My mother sent me with you for this Ritual"

I do not understand on why you try to deny Morrigan's lies,while the evidence speak the contrary.

May i remember you that in WH the Warden may formulate  the specific accusation to Morrigan

"you lied/deceived  me, all along"

 and she  confess 

"this true i deceived you"

Also she deceived the Warden at Redcliffe because she changed her previous intention/agreement with the Warden that was just to preserve the soul and not develop any plan, or more likely she lied about them when the question was asked,in this case we fall into the lies by omission.

(attention if the DR is performed there is the possibility to talk of betrayal that happen in WH,because the agreement between her and The Warden to just preserve the soul without using it as a means to an end is broken by Morrigan into the Dlc)

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes random stuff because it pretty much had very little to do with thing i was discussing.

Again she didn't lie by any mean she ourtright refused to tell you information not made up false one what isn't lie by any mean.

Refusing to tell something somone isn't lie again.

 

 

In first place quotes you provided don't contradict each other in any way... you are making stuff up, first quote is how she will raise him away from society what she intended to do and did ,while second is about preparing child to something that will come what doesn't contradict first statement .

 

Second example is only legitimate that can be seen as lie but doesn't rly matter here as it was long before ritual nor it was concerning the ritual only flemeth intentions..

[Secret Rare]

 

 

In first place quotes you provided don't contradict each other in any way

Anyway i wish to make only a question for you before to go to sleep (my puppy bear awaits   ) and i wish as an answer a yes or a no.

DO you consider Morrigan's actions in DAO  as a betrayal?

From what you said until now the logical answer would be no,because if there are no lies there can't be a betrayal.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Anyway i wish to make only a question for you before to go to sleep (my puppy bear awaits:wub: ) and i wish as an answer a yes or a no.

DO you consider Morrigan's actions in DAO can be perceived as a betrayal?

From what you said until now the logical answer would be no.

 

 

No, in scenario where she stays to fulfill group main mission, yes in scenario where she leaves mission because you refused to do ritual.

Of course im looking on that from perspective of the group she was part , then we can talk from perspective of friend or lover.   

[Secret Rare]

No, in scenario where she stays to fulfill group main mission, yes in scenario where she leaves mission because you refused to do ritual.

Of course im looking on that from perspective of the group she was part , then we can talk from perspective of friend or lover.   

Yep, same for me even if she claimed the contrary it was a betrayal from the group perspective

(im my game as i said she abandoned the group),clever Komandor you're not fallen into my trap(   )

Do you know that i read this forum carefully yes? Of course you know little boy   and that i was willing to capture you with your own words,yes i admit it was (little,little,evil from my part ) but you passed the test

http://forum.bioware...lling-morrigan/

only difference between us is that i believe that she lied as well

[Secret Rare]

To you all,Morrigan betrayed me in my canon and i'm not willing to hear any justification for this,it was a betrayal and that is final.

Being tired to hear heavy defence for her desertion,like

"Oh look you're moron because she didn't promises something to you,she didn't signed this paper in front of Vladimir Putin" .

Abandon a friend or a lover as well as the entire group because of something that was popped at the last moment still remains heavy betrayal.

Others companions can leave but their behaviour is predictable

Leliana,AListair,Wynne,Shale each of them reveal to you in which they believe and if the Warden cannot predict them, is only because is a big moron, still i consider each of them as a traitors(like AListair said for himself in DAII if he leave) if they leave,which didn't happen in my game because they asked nothing noteworthy to my Warden,unlike Morrigan,who decided to go against my goal that was kill the soul of the old god.

So now i'm not willing to listen to whichever will tell to me that she didn't betray me, and that my attack in the DLC was made because my Warden was a psychopath or a monster,nope she was perfectly sane,and she betrayed me.

Also Morrigan didn't die because she was protected by plot armor,The eluvian in WH was still functional,but against my will my Warden decided to not cross the mirror to finish her.

Did you see the Warden in my avatar? Is my HoF,whom friends and father were in danger into the alinage,what Morrigan suggested to do with them,first to sell them all,then to sacrifice them all,after all these things people still wonder on why my warden despise  that monster?

But no, look you are wrong because killing a bunch of defenseless people and allow that miserable worm of a magister to escape  is not evil is grey.

Grey a color that is popped always into the forum a fashion lately, to defend Morrigan even from the most evil things,frankly is quite boring as an excuse,

"oh look..... she was raised,...... in this.... way,.....this...,that,    tttttwas, she is so nice in the fade scene......"

the hell i don't care,my father is more important than Kieren,Kieran need to be saved he is  so  cute...... but my father need to die ,really really?

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Yep, same for me even if she claimed the contrary it was a betrayal from the group perspective

(im my game as i said she abandoned the group),clever Komandor you're not fallen into my trap(   )

Do you know that i read this forum carefully yes? Of course you know little boy   and that i was willing to capture you with your own words,yes i admit it was (little,little,evil from my part ) but you passed the test

http://forum.bioware...lling-morrigan/

only difference between us is that i believe that she lied as well

 

Nah i have great skill when it comes to disarming traps.

[Vorathrad]

Rarther for fanatic that kills himself for no reason what at the same time may fit for some grey wardens.

 

Morrigan explains almost everything to you with an exception of her future plans and for rest of this what pretty much means you don't trust morrgian with it... 

 

I meant your last sentence in your previous post.

 

Wardens don't kill themselves for no reason, they do it to stop the blight. From the moment they do the joining ritual, they give their lives to stop the blight: either they'll die killing darkspawn, or killing the archdemon, or in a few years in the Deep Roads. To say it bluntly, they are basically disposable tools designed to kill darkspawn and the archdemon. And the drastic consequences of the joining are very convenient to their cause: it's far easier to be willing to sacrifice yourself to kill the archdemon if you are going to die in a few years anyway, than if you have the option of a future sitting on your backyard watching your greatkids play (which is what some people seem to think the ritual does) So yes, I think the "you shouldn't care about living because you are going to die in a few years" fits the Wardens and their mission perfectly.

 

Morrigan explains little because she knows little (and because she doesn't want to say what she will do with the child, but I will stick to the DR here) I remembered that she learned it from Flemeth's grimoire, but I watched the video and she simply says she learned about it from Flemeth. So she knows little and only what Flemeth wanted her to know. My PC didn't trust her, but I can see how others that did refused the ritual as a way to prevent a friend from dabbling with forces way above her and that she knows little about.

 

With my Grey Wardens comment I meant that some people are saying they do the ritual because of GW questionable decisions; but that is metagaming, as we only learn about those decisions later, in Origins they are these great heroes that sacrifice themselves to stop the blight and you have no reasons in game to question the sacrifices they make.

[Ieldra]

With my Grey Wardens comment I meant that some people are saying they do the ritual because of GW questionable decisions; but that is metagaming, as we only learn about those decisions later, in Origins they are these great heroes that sacrifice themselves to stop the blight and you have no reasons in game to question the sacrifices they make.

I don't know. For me, the luster came right off when Duncan killed Jory and with the revelations about the Joining, and a little later, the Calling. The Grey Wardens are not the type of heroes you'd want to be if you knew what it entailed and you had a choice. If you're lucky, you die killing an archdemon, and if you're not, you die fighting darkspawn hordes after half of a normal lifespan. It may be a necessity, but it's a pretty sh*tty deal regardless.

 

The DR gives you the opportuntiy to tweak the supposed rules. Reason enough for me, even if you don't add that it saves your life in the process. As for Morrigan, her reason - to preserve some of the magic of old - is enough for me as well. She explains it in more detail in DAI, and I agree with her, and that some of that magic gets bound to a human is the icing on the cake. Too bad it ends up with Flemeth again, it would've been interesting to see what comes of it.

[Vorathrad]

I don't know. For me, the luster came right off when Duncan killed Jory and with the revelations about the Joining, and a little later, the Calling. The Grey Wardens are not the type of heroes you'd want to be if you knew what it entailed and you had a choice. If you're lucky, you die killing an archdemon, and if you're not, you die fighting darkspawn hordes after half of a normal lifespan. It may be a necessity, but it's a pretty sh*tty deal regardless.

 

The DR gives you the opportuntiy to tweak the supposed rules. Reason enough for me, even if you don't add that it saves your life in the process. As for Morrigan, her reason - to preserve some of the magic of old - is enough for me as well. She explains it in more detail in DAI, and I agree with her, and that some of that magic gets bound to a human is the icing on the cake. Too bad it ends up with Flemeth again, it would've been interesting to see what comes of it.

 

One of the main themes in DAO was that Grey Wardens were these forgotten heroes of old, and the blight reminding people why they are viewed as heroes and why Thedas needs them. The views on them of course differ from player to player, but I think most people including myself felt that they were part of something bigger than themselves, not the shady organization with questionable management that GW are painted as in DA2 and Inquisition. 

 

It's a sh*tty deal, certainly  But to me, it serves as a measure of how big a threat the blight is, that the only way to stop it is for some people to take such a path. GW are not the typical heroes with incredible powers that you get at no cost and end up riding into the sunset after a glorious victory; and that's why I liked the concept so much.

 

The DR is a way around the very poor life choices for Wardens, but you are taking a great risk in it. You don't even have enough information about it to properly consider the cons.

 

As I said before, for me Morrigan's desire to preserve the old magic would be reason enough if 1. She really knew what she was doing and had enough information of the possible consequences and 2. She would preserve it instead of using it for her own and forever undisclosed goals. I can see, however, how her reasons may be enough for other people.

 

I'm glad that the OGS goes back to Flemeth; difficult playing implementation aside, I think she has far more knowledge than her daughter and is much more capable of handling such a power. And I don't like that humans are always the most powerful and speshul, so I'd rather don't have a human having that power.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wardens don't kill themselves for no reason, they do it to stop the blight. From the moment they do the joining ritual, they give their lives to stop the blight: either they'll die killing darkspawn, or killing the archdemon, or in a few years in the Deep Roads. To say it bluntly, they are basically disposable tools designed to kill darkspawn and the archdemon. And the drastic consequences of the joining are very convenient to their cause: it's far easier to be willing to sacrifice yourself to kill the archdemon if you are going to die in a few years anyway, than if you have the option of a future sitting on your backyard watching your greatkids play (which is what some people seem to think the ritual does) So yes, I think the "you shouldn't care about living because you are going to die in a few years" fits the Wardens and their mission perfectly.

 

Morrigan explains little because she knows little (and because she doesn't want to say what she will do with the child, but I will stick to the DR here) I remembered that she learned it from Flemeth's grimoire, but I watched the video and she simply says she learned about it from Flemeth. So she knows little and only what Flemeth wanted her to know. My PC didn't trust her, but I can see how others that did refused the ritual as a way to prevent a friend from dabbling with forces way above her and that she knows little about.

 

With my Grey Wardens comment I meant that some people are saying they do the ritual because of GW questionable decisions; but that is metagaming, as we only learn about those decisions later, in Origins they are these great heroes that sacrifice themselves to stop the blight and you have no reasons in game to question the sacrifices they make.

 

Again if you trust morrigan you are killing yourself for no reason because again you do stop archdemon and blight just without sacrificing someone.Also it isn't just few years but even up to 30 years of live what is a lot , another thing you pretty much depending on the choices have access to knowledge that prelonged someone life to 2 centuries so you can live far longer than normal human.

 

That simple isn't true morrigan explains to us a lot including how ritual works and what will be effects of it ,you can question her on that for a reason.And reason is still pretty much not trusting her with it.   

 

Hardly game from get go game paints them as anti-heroes only naive folks and bedtime stories from wynne try paint them as ones. 

[Vorathrad]

Again if you trust morrigan you are killing yourself for no reason because again you do stop archdemon and blight just without sacrificing someone.Also it isn't just few years but even up to 30 years of live what is a lot , another thing you pretty much depending on the choices have access to knowledge that prelonged someone life to 2 centuries so you can live far longer than normal human.

 

That simple isn't true morrigan explains to us a lot including how ritual works and what will be effects of it ,you can question her on that for a reason.And reason is still pretty much not trusting her with it.   

 

Hardly game from get go game paints them as anti-heroes only naive folks and bedtime stories from wynne try paint them as ones. 

 

It seems we reached a dead end here  We simply don't see it in the same way; I watched the video this morning and though Morrigan tells you what she knows (but not what she intends to do with it), to me it's very little. It's basically "this ritual is done like this and it will achieve that". For you it's more than enough, but that doesn't make it true or false. It's a matter of opinion. And I don't see not thinking Morrigan has enough info as not trusting her but you do. A matter of opinion again. So we have to agree to disagree, but it was a very nice debate, made me think a lot.

[Aren]

And I don't like that humans are always the most powerful and speshul, so I'd rather don't have a human having that power.

Elven powers should belong to elves.

These Humans are all thieves.