560 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

Again they don't kill old god because it isn't old god anymore only archdemon so they can't kill something that doesn't exist anymore.Old god became archdemon and if you did DR archdemon is gone but old god is restored or rather his soul.

That's like saying a Grey Warden is no longer human because he's tainted.

Moreover, nonexistence is absolute. If the Archdemon didn't have its soul, Morrigan would have to literally create it anew.

No i give up with the Komandor

Fandom fueled debates are seldom constructive.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's like saying a Grey Warden is no longer human because he's tainted.

Moreover, nonexistence is absolute. If the Archdemon didn't have its soul, Morrigan would have to literally create it anew.

It isn't the same in first place ,grey warden stays the same while old god becomes new being twisting what it was before.

If something comparison to ghoul would be more fitting but im not sure even if that would fit.

 

Not necessarily she would need to restore to what it was before it was corrupted.

[Qun00]

Ice still is water.

Killing Darth Vader still accomplishes the goal of killing Anakin Skywalker.

Morrigan couldn't possibly heal what was never there, as a different state doesn't deny existence.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ice still is water.

Killing Darth Vader still accomplishes the goal of killing Anakin Skywalker.

 

Morrigan couldn't possibly heal what was never there, as a different state doesn't deny existence.

 

 

Ice was water but it isn't water now it is ice.Pretty much you don't tell somone that you want water if you want ice and vice versa.

 

Not if DV and Anakin were 2 different beings.

 

You can turn ice into water and water into ice.

[Aren]

 

 

No they don't solve problems permanently they have no idea in first place what will happen with darkspawn when they will kill every archdemon what pretty much some characters with great knowledge suggested may be bad idea. 

 

 

 

Bad idea?

Solas has no idea of what a bad idea is.....

I wait for a Dlc in which i will have this possibility with Solas

[Qun00]

Ice was water but it isn't water now it is ice.Pretty much you don't tell somone that you want water if you want ice and vice versa.

Not if DV and Anakin were 2 different beings.

You can turn ice into water and water into ice.

And they certainly aren't two beings, just like the Archdemon is just corrupted Urthemiel.

Exactly. You can infect an Old God with the taint and turn it into an Archdemon. And then you can separate it from the taint with the DR.

Water becomes ice, ice becomes water.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Bad idea?

Solas has no idea of what a bad idea is.....

I wait for a Dlc in which i will have this possibility with Solas

 

I have to admit it was pretty funny but i would prefer caesar's legion punishment.

However, considering that solas is older than blight and was "god" quite good chances that he may know far more about situation and blight than pretty much almost everyone.

 

 

 

And they certainly aren't two beings, just like the Archdemon is just corrupted Urthemiel.

Exactly. You can infect an Old God with the taint and turn it into an Archdemon. And then you can separate it from the taint with the DR.

Water becomes ice, ice becomes water.

 

They are , yes Archdemon was Old God but when he becomes archdemon and he stops being A and becomes B.

 

Thus without melting we deal with ice not water ,or water not ice without freezing.  

[German Soldier]

Ice was water but it isn't water now it is ice

O no we don't know the basic of physics i see..

Ice is not water?I didn't realize that the physics laws were changed yesterday.....

albeit i confess that this topic is become contrived and i will go to the mass effect section

[Qun00]

Thus without melting we deal with ice not water ,or water not ice without freezing.

But my target wil be the same when I make it disappear with a flamethrower.

Such is the concept of different states, something I try to make you understand to no avail.

Or would it be that the Warden cannot kill Danyla because she is a werewolf now?

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

O no we don't know the basic of physics i see..

Ice is not water?I didn't realize that the physics laws were changed yesterday.....

albeit i confess that this topic is become contrived and i will go to the mass effect section

 

It isn't ,at best you can say it is frozen water because ice is created by freezing water.

 

 

 

But my target will remain the same when I make it disappear with a flamethrower.

Such is the concept of different states, something I try to make you understand to no avail.

Or would it be that the Warden can't kill Danyla because she is a werewolf now?

Your target won't remain the same ,your target will change into something different.

 

If you will break ice cube you won't break water only ice cube.

 

Better example would be that the warden can't kill elf only werewolf.

[German Soldier]

It isn't ,at best you can say it is frozen water because ice is created by freezing water.

 

 

 

 

In nature nothing is created everything is transformed. Lavoisier,

in Germany they do teach those things at the age of 5 just like in every other modern country,still i fail to see what all of this have to do with the topic,you're just ruining the topic with yours incorrect hyperbole.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

In nature nothing is created everything is transformed. Lavoisier,

in Germany they do teach those things at the age of 5 just like in every other modern country,still i fail to see what all of this have to do with the topic,you're just ruining the topic with yours incorrect hyperbole.

 

Now you are nitpicking that i used word created instead transformed.

Transformed or created doesn't change fact that water becomes ice.

 

Not much, but you are one who keeps going about it , i was talking on topic of dark ritual then it went on old god and archdemon now you are talking about ice.

[German Soldier]

i was talking on topic of dark ritual then it went on old god and archdemon now you are talking about ice.

Yes and to return to the topic and also add my last comment of the discussion,i already said why i did it (the sacrifice path),those things,the old gods can cause blights so i do not see the value on letting Urthemiel(or whichever was his name) live,just for the sake of the Morrigan/Flemeth telenovelas or to save one single miserable Warden ? I don't care.

[Qun00]

Your target won't remain the same ,your target will change into something different.

If you will break ice cube you won't break water only ice cube.

Better example would be that the warden can't kill elf only werewolf.

As far as results are concerned, the state of an object is irrelevant. If you destroy it, it will be gone forever.

If the ultimate sacrifice is completed, Morrigan will have nothing to save.

We could sit here all day arguing over what should be called what, and the fact will remain that Urthemiel did become an archdemon.

It didn't go somewhere while an ugly dragon mysteriously showed up, and so it won't survive the process described by Riordan.

I'm not sure why you are waging this war, though. People who oppose the DR aren't necessarily bashing Morrigan.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Everyone should be aware that Komandor is a huge Morrigan fan. Not long ago s/he was talking about how s/he hates it when people criticize the DR choice.

S/He isn't here to debate, but specifically to defend the character's views. You won't quench that passion with arguments.


As far as results are concerned, the state of an object is irrelevant. If you destroy it, it will be gone.

If the ultimate sacrifice is completed, Morrigan will have nothing to save.

 

Actually not rly, personally i don't trust morrigan neither i did trust her with ritual however, whether other player or what is important pc trust her is another matter.

If fact i never discussed my personal opinion on morrigan or DR here only pc/player possible opinion on it.

 

Hm? I never said that ,if i recall closest would be that i simple dislike how some people are trying throw pc that made DR into same sack while it is more complex than that.

 

And? I never claimed it wouldn't be gone.

 

Hmm? never claimed that morrigan had anything to save in that scenario. 

[Qun00]

Actually not rly, personally i don't trust morrigan neither i did trust her with ritual however, whether other player or what is important pc trust her is another matter.
If fact i never discussed my personal opinion on morrigan or DR here only pc/player possible opinion on it.

Hm? I never said that ,if i recall closest would be that i simple dislike how some people are trying throw pc that made DR into same sack while it is more complex than that.

And? I never claimed it wouldn't be gone.

Hmm? never claimed that morrigan had anything to save in that scenario.

Well... if we do agree that the Old God soul cannot survive the ultimate sacrifice, why were you arguing that the Grey Wardens can't kill it permanently?

Riordan's explanation on how it works doesn't leave a lot of room for doubt.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well... if we do agree that the Old God soul cannot survive the ultimate sacrifice, why were you arguing that the Grey Wardens can't kill it permanently?

Riordan's account on why it works is pretty detailed.

I didn't agree on that ,what i agreed with it is that morrigan can't "save" old god soul if you did US because in first place you destroy an archdemon essence that becomes old god soul if DR is done.Grey warden didn't killed an old god because to begin with there was no old god only archdemon to kill.

 

 

[robertthebard]

Sacrifice, and Morrigan had 0 to do with it. If you want to "blame" someone, you can blame Alistair for crapping all over my female DE Warden, who then kept Loghain, killed Alistair, and went on to end the Archdemon out of pure spite.

Only after the funeral did I start to realize how fitting it all was, and how ultimately satisfying. So sorry, if you were looking for debate about OGB, but to DR or not to DR had nothing to do with Morrigan, in my case.

[Qun00]

I didn't agree on that ,what i agreed with it is that morrigan can't "save" old god soul if you did US because in first place you destroy an archdemon essence that becomes old god soul if DR is done.Grey warden didn't killed an old god because to begin with there was no old god only archdemon to kill.

Ahh, so this is about names.

I thought you were questioning the results. If the remaining Old Gods become archdemons and then the Grey Wardens slay them through US, their kind will be essentially extinct.

How many are left, one? Two if we include Urthemiel?

[Aren]

Grey warden didn't killed an old god because to begin with there was no old god only archdemon to kill.

 

 

GW killed the old gods,when the last AD will die they will be extinct,it doesnt matter in what state,form or aggregate they kill them after the Ultimate sacrifice they ceases to exist for the eternity,it can't be so difficult...

Also i do not have any bias toward Morrigan,i simply believe that she is very unwise in both DAO with most of her advices that were often unproductive

(sorry but being practical and being "dark" are two different things,the two often don't match), and DAI as well.

 for my Warden  trust her with an Old god, it was like trust an average person without competence about nuclear with a nuclear bomb

(i hope that you take the comparision "which mean that she knew nothing of the old gods),trusting Flemeth was a yes,but there wasn't Flemeth in Reclieffe...

if the soul of the old god is with Flemeth is safe,if ti is with Morrigan to me it isn't,yes Flemeth take the soul but it would be massive metagaming for me to do the DR just becuase FLemeth will come 10  years  later,give to me the crystal ball and i will do it..

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

GW killed the old gods,when the last AD will die they will be extinct,it doesnt matter in what state,form or aggregate they kill them after the Ultimate sacrifice they ceases to exist for the eternity,it can't be so difficult...

Also i do not have any bias toward Morrigan,i simply believe that she is very unwise in both DAO with most of her advices that were often unproductive

(sorry but being practical and being "dark" are two different things,the two often don't match), and DAI as well.

 for my Warden  trust her with an Old god, it was like trust an average person without competence about nuclear with a nuclear bomb

(i hope that you take the comparision "which mean that she knew nothing of the old gods),trusting Flemeth was a yes,but there wasn't Flemeth in Reclieffe...

if the soul of the old god is with Flemeth is safe,if ti is with Morrigan to me it isn't,yes Flemeth take the soul but it would be massive metagaming for me to do the DR just becuase FLemeth will come 10  years  later,give to me the crystal ball and i will do it..

 

I see i have to repeat myself 5000 times there is no old god there is an archdemon... what you kill is an archdemon and that is what you kill you can't kill something doesn't exist anymore.

What you belive is your own call ,again it is entirely possible for player or warden to trust morrigan with it and in the end she proved didn't do anything bad with child.

[Aren]

I see i have to repeat myself 5000 times there is no old god there is an archdemon... what you kill is an archdemon and that is what you kill you can't kill something doesn't exist anymore.

What you belive is your own call ,again it is entirely possible for player or warden to trust morrigan with it and in the end she proved didn't do anything bad with child.

1) It doesn't matter, Urthemiel die as well with the AD

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

1) It doesn't matter, Urthemiel die as well with the AD, alias the Warden killed the old god as well,you're just kidding yourself with stupid technicalities,Urthemiel is dead it doesn't matter what the old god was,in what form,his intimate essence is destroyed with the sacrifice,you're just saying that ice and water are different while they are the same thing in different state.

The wardens kill the old gods in the form of Archdemons but in the end the Old gods die as well.

2)Flemeth prevented everything from Morrigan this is why she doesn't do something,the girl was stupid enough to bind herself with another will,if that well of sorrow for hypothesis it would have lead her to bind herself not with her mother,but with an hostile entity,that entity would have controlled Morrigan and the OGB as well,the well of sorrow is just the proof on how naive she is when it comes to precautions.

She got lucky with Mythal,if her mother would had bad intent (for revenge) Morrigan would have been finished with the old god.

 

1.It does matter Old god is gone when it transforms into Archdemon so you don't kill Old god at best you can argue you have killed Urthemiel but he ain't old god anymore.Ice and water aren't the same thing in first place that is why ice is ice not water and vice versa. 

2.Pretty much false in first place flemeth couldn't locate them until Dai ,OGB was solely in morrigan hands (unless warden went through the mirror) she did good job with OGB , that she let herself bind to mythal is another matter what doesn't matter here as again she did good job with OGB and in fact either you or her had to do it in order to defeat corypheus.  

[Secret Rare]

1.It does matter Old god is gone when it transforms into Archdemon so you don't kill Old god at best you can argue you have killed Urthemiel but he ain't old god anymore.Ice and water aren't the same thing in first place that is why ice is ice not water and vice versa. 

2.Pretty much false in first place flemeth couldn't locate them until Dai ,OGB was solely in morrigan hands (unless warden went through the mirror) she did good job with OGB , that she let herself bind to mythal is another matter what doesn't matter here as again she did good job with OGB and in fact either you or her had to do it in order to defeat corypheus.  

Ah i see that you are still having gripes about the matter.........    

 

1)You have to use the word "gone" with more precautions,the word is not a synonym of dead.

When the Old god become an AD ,the pure form of the old god is gone like you claim, but gone doesn't mean that he is dead, he is transformed, not killed,there is still something of Urthemiel inside that body.

If you play the Dlc darkspawn chronicles,you will notice that Mr. Archdemon is capable to speak,even if he is heavily tainted he still retain part of his intelligence,part of his consciousness,but he is mad because of the taint.

But the point is that after the sacrifice Urthemiel cannot return anymore,you remove every possibility for his salvation,alias you killed him.

 

btb this will be the last time  for me to revisit this point

 

2)Pretty much is true

You're just defending Morrigan here without proving solid construct (i wish something more solid from you ,you used the timeline).

The point is,it doesn't matter when Flemeth come,if the DR is performed (basically if the Warden trusted Morrigan) then it's Morrigan responsibility to protect the OGB and not allow to anyone to steal his power

If Kieran lose the old god soul it is because of her mother's fault 

(nope The Inquisitor have no fault in this put the inq aside from the equation he/she doesn't even know about the old god at that point and it is not even he/she responsibility)

the warden delegated to Morrigan the old god soul,not to Flemeth,but Morrigan failed in her duty and now Kieran's destiny it is in Flemeth hands,due to Morrigan mistakes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Ah i see that you are still having gripes about the matter.........    

 

1)You have to use the word "gone" with more precautions,the word is not a synonym of dead.

When the Old god become an AD ,the pure form of the old god is gone like you claim, but gone doesn't mean that he is dead, he is transformed, not killed,there is still something of Urthemiel inside that body.

If you play the Dlc darkspawn chronicles,you will notice that Mr. Archdemon is capable to speak,even if he is heavily tainted he still retain part of his intelligence,part of his consciousness,but he is mad because of the taint.

But the point is that after the sacrifice Urthemiel cannot return anymore,you remove every possibility for his salvation,alias you killed him.

 

btb this will be the last time  for me to revisit this point

 

2)Pretty much is true

You're just defending Morrigan here without proving solid construct (i wish something more solid from you ,you used the timeline).

The point is,it doesn't matter when Flemeth come,if the DR is performed (basically if the Warden trusted Morrigan) then it's Morrigan responsibility to protect the OGB and not allow to anyone to steal his power

If Kieran lose the old god soul it is because of her mother's fault 

(nope The Inquisitor have no fault in this put the inq aside from the equation he/she doesn't even know about the old god at that point and it is not even he/she responsibility)

the warden delegated to Morrigan the old god soul,not to Flemeth,but Morrigan failed in her duty and now Kieran's destiny it is in Flemeth hands,due to Morrigan mistakes.

 

...

Again old god is gone and again now you are talking about Urthemiel if your dog transformed into cat you don't say you killed a dog only cat if your dog name was fluffy you can argue about that you have killed fluffy. 

 

No , it isn't by simple fact that OGB was solely under morrigan watch and she didn't do anything bad with it nor she planed to.

Im not defending morrigan in first place because in first place i will say she was pretty much dumb but it seems in first place judging by that part of the post that you have no idea what the im talking about.

In first place it is all about trusting morrigan when you make decision in that matter if you do trust her there is no reason to not take that option if you do , if you don't then simple you think it will end badly.

Second part that you are making stuff up because i never said inquisitor was up to blame... what i said that using well was necessary either you or morrigan have to use it and in the end it doesn't matter who drinks because flemeth finds OGB.Morrigan of course failed to protect OGB from flemeth but in the end result was harmless as flemeth dies leaving power to morrigan ,nor that end result would matter because again it is matter of trust when you are making decision about DR,i just pointed that end result was harmless and Dai showed that morrigan didn't had bad intentions with OGB.