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[Aren]

...

Again old god is gone and again now you are talking about Urthemiel if your dog transformed into cat you don't say you killed a dog only cat if your dog name was fluffy you can argue about that you have killed fluffy. 

 

No , it isn't by simple fact that OGB was solely under morrigan watch and she didn't do anything bad with it nor she planed to.

Im not defending morrigan in first place because in first place i will say she was pretty much dumb but it seems in first place judging by that part of the post that you have no idea what the im talking about.

In first place it is all about trusting morrigan when you make decision in that matter if you do trust her there is no reason to not take that option if you do , if you don't then simple you think it will end badly.

Second part that you are making stuff up because i never said inquisitor was up to blame... what i said that using well was necessary either you or morrigan have to use it and in the end it doesn't matter who drinks because flemeth finds OGB.Morrigan of course failed to protect OGB from flemeth but in the end result was harmless as flemeth dies leaving power to morrigan ,nor that end result would matter because again it is matter of trust when you are making decision about DR,i just pointed that end result was harmless and Dai showed that morrigan didn't had bad intentions with OGB.  

1) dog? cats? ahh   i guess that she(secret rare) have this point

2)yep Morrigan failed in her duty to protect the OGB ,i wasn't arguing on what she planned to do(i don't care) i was arguing of the fact that she wasn't qualified to protect an old god which is true.

In the end she failed and you don't know what FLemeth will do but this still remains your GW responsability,you have freed Urthemiel instead of finish him, and if he is in FLemeth hands it is because of your actions

[TheKomandorShepard]

1) dog? cats? ahh   i guess that she(secret rare) have this point

2)yep Morrigan failed in her duty to protect the OGB ,i wasn't arguing on what she planned to do(i don't care) i was arguing of the fact that she wasn't qualified to protect an old god (which is true in the end she failed)

1)Not rly, again if 3 is Changed into 8 and then you remove it you don't remove 3 only 8.

2)And i was arguing that trusting morrigan with it is matter of opinion and that the warden could have trusted her.She was qualified, in first place she did it for 10-11 years with good results .even such character like flemeth couldn't find them ,that you eventually failed doesn't mean you weren't qualified otherwise pretty much unless you were perfect being that never fails no one would be qualified ,and even when she failed pretty much results were harmless so in meta terms nothing bad came from it.

[Secret Rare]

...

1)what i said that using well was necessary either you or morrigan have to use it

2)Morrigan failed protect OGB from flemeth but in the end result was harmless as flemeth dies leaving power to morrigan ,

Komandor you wish to sink with your ship in this lonely night i see...

1)Another badly executed quest. You could have destroyed the Well, or at least let Abelas do it -

 

2)False read Gaider if you're reffering to Mythal essence,if you're reffering to just the power of the well,again false even if Flemeth is dead (not sure) Mythal is still alive and Morrigan is her slave for the eternity

http://forum.bioware...derstood/page-3

[TheKomandorShepard]

Komandor you wish to sink with your ship in this lonely night i see...

1)Another badly executed quest. Solas states that he believes the Well must be preserved but that he doesn't want Morrigan to do it. But then he flatly refuses you when you ask him to do it - without any explanation why and despite him clearly being the most qualified, regardless of what Morrigan claims. Nobody thinks this reaction odd, considering he makes out like you have suggested something obscene and insulting to him, to the point where he will take genuine offence if you ask again. Its ridiculous, as is the fact that despite being Elven and interested in history, he apparently can only translate certain bits and pieces of the writings, and never mentions any of the stuff that Morrigan claims to have read and left out.

 

You could have destroyed the Well, or at least let Abelas do it - it is even stated that the Well is powering the Eluvian, or rather that its the key to operating it. So you've solving both problems at once. Corypheus arriving is no issue - the scene takes place right before the final showdown when your party is easily a match for him. His army is losing badly because his forces have been so depleted, and your yours have swelled to immense size. Your advisors are brimming with confidence before this mission, because the tide has so heavily turned in your favour.

 

People will always make the 'The Ends justify the means' argument, but the game doesn't support there being any such need at this point. You have beaten Corypheus  this adventure to the Wilds has cost him the last of his forces, and if he hung around the Dragon would likely be slain (you do have all your forces here after all), leaving him vulnerable even if your characters are unaware of that. With the Venatori quitting the field and Grey Wardens lost to him, he is running short of (what are effectively) respawn points in the region. There is simply no need to accept Morrigan's outrageously suspicious arguments and accept this 'But thou Must; logic for an artifact you know nothing about and which you didn't even know existed half an hour ago.

 

Not to mention the less than commendable work ethic of Abelas and his men, who eternally guard the well... until someone powerful is nearly at the thing, when he just says 'Forget this, I'm off to Vegas - you handle the well, person I've just met'..

 

2)False read Gaider

http://forum.bioware...derstood/page-3

 

1.It was necessary ,again because includes knowledge how to kill Corypheus ,without it inquisitor doesn't know how to kill him. So pretty much without this knowledge this would be inquisitor vs immortal extremely powerful darkspawn.

 

2.Oh thanks, i didn't even know about that  , but it doesn't deny thing i said about flemeth dying ,DG said it may or not be true so we are stuck at simple maybe. 

[Secret Rare]

1.It was necessary ,again because includes knowledge how to kill Corypheus ,without it inquisitor doesn't know how to kill him. So pretty much without this knowledge this would be inquisitor vs immortal extremely powerful darkspawn.

 

2.Oh thanks, i didn't even know about that  , but it doesn't deny thing i said about flemeth dying ,DG said it may or not be true so we are stuck at simple maybe. 

1.that post was simply to say that the quest is badly executed,at that point the well of sorrow is useless,you could have simply ask to Abelas or Solas on how to kill Corypheus,they already knew this,Abelas because he already possess the same knowledge of the well,Solas because is Solas,there is no need of the knowledge of the well.

 

2 yes the theory is just a maybe,Flemeth is dead but Mythal isn't,Morrigan is bounded to Mythal not to Flemeth.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1.that post was simply to say that the quest is badly executed,at that point the well of sorrow is useless,you could have simply ask to Abelas or Solas on how to kill Corypheus,they already knew this,Abelas because he already possess the same knowledge of the well,Solas because is Solas,there is no need of the knowledge of the well.

 

2 yes the theory is just a maybe,Flemeth is dead but Mythal isn't,Morrigan is bounded to Mythal not to Flemeth.

1.Sure if you say so, but i belive it wasn't anywhere stated that Abelas had information and that he has the same knowledge voices provided you with or Morrigan ,either way if you will tell him that well may help you defeat Corypheus he says he doesn't care about corypheus.As for Solas even if he knows how to kill Corypheus, you don't know who Solas is and that he knows that ,nor he was keen on sharing information about way of killing Corypheus with you.

 

2.As far we don't know much or even if Mythal is alive after solas absorbed Flemeth ,but wheter is Morrigan bound to Mythal depends on player choice.  

[Secret Rare]

 

.......

Anyway i have another question.

Do you consider Morrigan's action as betrayal during Flemeth quest?

When she isn't honest with the Warden and she doesn't reveal the reason of why she was sent under the specific question,but still put in danger the Warden's life against her mother for her own interest?(she only reveal her suspicion about her mother).

Sure the warden have the option to refuse to help her,but at that point the warden doesnt know that she is deceiving him/her,and the warden doesn't have the full picture to decide,so his/her life is in danger because she/he was half decieved.

(no,no trap this time  )

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Anyway i have another question.

Do you consider Morrigan's action as betrayal during Flemeth quest?

When she isn't honest with the Warden and she doesn't reveal the reason of why she was sent under the specific question,but still put in danger the Warden's life against her mother for her own interest?(she only reveal her suspicion about her mother).

Sure the warden have the option to refuse to help her,but at that point the warden doesnt know that she is deceiving him/her,and the warden doesn't have the full picture to decide,so his/her life is in danger because she/he was half decieved.

(no,no trap this time  )

 

I would say no in that case, because she was party member and flemeth was threat to her or at least morrigan legitimately thought that flemeth wanted to possess her and in the end decision to fight flemeth was up to player.

[Secret Rare]

I would say no in that case, because she was party member and flemeth was threat to her or at least morrigan legitimately thought that flemeth wanted to possess her and in the end decision to fight flemeth was up to player.

Well as i said the warden is not in the position to know (without metagaming) that Morrigan is using him/her also for her own interest,she put the warden life in danger without even bother to reveal the truth.

The lie is there,the life of the protagonist is put even in danger because of her,to me this is even more betrayal than the Redcliffe case,at least in Redcliffe she is honest,here she isn't

May i remind you that if you refuse to help her, she leave(unless you  lie to her,but my warden is always honest),just like Redcliffe.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well as i said the warden is not in the position to know (without metagaming) that Morrigan is using him/her also for her own interest,she put the warden life in danger without even bother to reveal the truth.

The lie is there,the life of the protagonist is put even in danger because of her,to me this is even more betrayal than the Redcliffe case,at least in Redcliffe she is honest,here she isn't

May i remind you that if you refuse to help her, she leave(unless you do not complete the quest or lie to her,but my warden is always honest),just like Redcliffe.

 

Well you know why you are going after flemeth, it is because morrigan thinks flemeth wants to possess her and it was real reason why she asked you for help with her.What morrigan decives you about is her goal dark ritual in that case ,what doesn't conflict with group goal to stop blight as you can do both.

 

If she leaves you i think it definitely can be seen as betrayal of the group she joined.

 

[Secret Rare]

 

If she leaves you i think it definitely can be seen as betrayal of the group she joined.

 

Maybe,i believe that at Redclieffe is more defined,because at camp you're just the leader of the group,at redclieffe(after landsmeet) you're  promoted as a General of the army,so i will consider the one of Redclieffe a betrayal from a militaristic point of view,in the army you're not allowed to disobey to a General.

[Aren]

 

2)And i was arguing that trusting morrigan with it is matter of opinion and that the warden could have trusted her.She was qualified, in first place she did it for 10-11 years with good results .even such character like flemeth couldn't find them ,that you eventually failed doesn't mean you weren't qualified otherwise pretty much unless you were perfect being that never fails no one would be qualified ,and even when she failed pretty much results were harmless so in meta terms nothing bad came from it.

After that i have thought this for a while i believe that the achievement name is not an accident "Dark promise".

I sincerely believe that Morrigan tried to fought a war that was already lost,she tried to protect Kieran from Flemeth,when the very thing inside of her own son,the old god was one of Mythal allies.

The old god Urthemiel was an ally of Mythal in DAI,Kieran wanted to leave her mother because was influenced by the old god,if souls cannot be forced like Flemeth claim,then the only explanation for what as happened is that the Old god willing decided to go to Flemeth.

Morrigan's Plan was an epic fail since the beginning

 because with the ritual she saved one of her mother allies 

(pretty much a stupid thing to do if you're against her).

If the Warden refuse the ritual he/she is doing a great favor to Morrigan at personal risk.

Morrigan is basically like Merril in this case,because she tried (or try to) to save a being of which she was completely ignorant about,a friend of her mother who influenced her son for 10 years.

well done...

[TheKomandorShepard]

Maybe,i believe that at Redclieffe is more defined,because at camp you're just the leader of the group,at redclieffe(after landsmeet) you're  promoted as a General of the army,so i will consider the one of Redclieffe a betrayal from a militaristic point of view,in the army you're not allowed to disobey to a General.

Problem with that view point would be that morrigan never joined military , but she joined your party fully knowing that that party goal was.

 

 

 

After that i have thought this for a while i believe that the achievement name is not an accident "Dark promise".

I sincerely believe that Morrigan tried to fought a war that was already lost,she tried to protect Kieran from Flemeth,when the very thing inside of her own son,the old god was one of Mythal allies.

The old god Urthemiel was an ally of Mythal in DAI,Kieran wanted to leave her mother because was influenced by the old god,if souls cannot be forced like Flemeth claim,then the only explanation for what as happened is that the Old god willing decided to go to Flemeth.

Morrigan's Plan was an epic fail since the beginning

 because with the ritual she saved one of her mother allies 

(pretty much a stupid thing to do if you're against her).

If the Warden refuse the ritual he/she is doing a great favor to Morrigan at personal risk.

Morrigan is basically like Merril in this case,because she tried (or try to) to save a being of which she was completely ignorant about,a friend of her mother who influenced her son for 10 years.

well done...

 

She didn't fought war she already lost, as i said she was able successfully keep child from flemeth and stay of her radar for 10-11 years (perhaps even more depending on dai timeline) problem was that morrigan tripped, more specifically well of sorrows that was reason why flemeth found them, if she never joined inquisition or inquisitor decided to destroy well, flemeth wouldn't be able to find them then. So in the end what screwd morrigan was bad luck because regardless of that who drinks from well, flemeth is able to locate her thanks to that. 

 

From what i remember flemeth said that soul can't be forced upon unwilling pretty much refering to ritual morrigan found in dao.

[SgtSteel91]

Why does everyone assume that you actually want to fulfill your responsability as a warden? You are essentially forced into being a Warden against your will in practically all the origins. For instance, why would a Dalish Warden who only became one because they became tainted by so happy to have their soul annihilated? Not everyone plays a Warden who actually wanted to be a Warden.

 

I really think these kinds of Wardens, those who never wanted to be one and possibly doesn't like being one, are the ones who fit well in their cameo in Inquisition cause they are definitely the kind of people who would want to find a cure for the Calling.

 

 

edit: vvvvvvvvvv

 

True

[Nixou]

these kinds of Wardens, those who never wanted to be one and possibly doesn't like being one, are the ones who fit well in their cameo in Inquisition

 

 

I'd say that both kind of Wardens have reasons for their quests: A dutiful Warden is seeking a way to makes its order more efficient, a reluctant Warden is seeking to get out of a shitty deal they never wanted to make in the first place.

[TheKomandorShepard]

There is already Avernus method to do so, well pointless. 

[SgtSteel91]

There is already Avernus method to do so, well pointless. 

 

But that methods looks like it requires you to be a Mage.

[TheKomandorShepard]

But that methods looks like it requires you to be a Mage.

Not necessarily ,it requires magic for certain to conduct avernus experiments but results of them could be taken by non-mage warden as well.You can always find a mage to help you out.

[Nixou]

But that methods looks like it requires you to be a Mage.

 

 

It doesn't require the beneficiary to be a mage, but it is heavily implied that his method requires killing a lot of people to work

[German Soldier]

There is already Avernus method to do so, well pointless. 

He is completly right

[German Soldier]

Sacrifice, and Morrigan had 0 to do with it.

Holy sky, holy words!

Archdemons and Old gods are not Morrigan's business,unless she wish to become an enemy of the order,whoever will interfere into the battle between the GW and the AD will be considered as such.

[German Soldier]

Problem with that view point would be that morrigan never joined military , but she joined your party fully knowing that that party goal was.

 

 

 

Yes it make sense you made a great point there bravo!

[Akiza]

 

From what i remember flemeth said that soul can't be forced upon unwilling pretty much refering to ritual morrigan found in dao.

This work for every soul i think,the old god decided to go to FLemeth,it was his decision to abandon Kieran,it was not stolen from Flemeth.

[dragonflight288]

No it is not, because it lead exactly to the same outcome

 

It's not the outcome that appeals to many Bioware fans. It's the journey.

[Akiza]

It's not the outcome that appeals to many Bioware fans. It's the journey.

If only more players would follow the same approach,instead they are obsessed with choices and outcome,that is why i never took that ritual,the battle of Denerim was more engaging and fun to me.