560 réponses à ce sujet

[German Soldier]

Fair enough I'm just going to take that as me being annoyed at her being forced. *shrug*

 

I never said opposing power concerns her. That said you're right about her having little reason to be in the Inquisitor's good graces (outside maybe them being more liable to trust her with the well because of it).

 

One would think Orlais would've straightened her out of such displays if nothing else.

Agree on that if Redclieffe is abandoned the villagers become undead hat later the demon use against the warden,that's just show Sten and Morrigan incompetence.

[In Exile]

This make no sense,i don't need to trust Riordan solely because he is a senior warden or because he is trustworthy,i trust him because i have evidence from the previous blight,one can say

"So that's why  Corin and Gharael died afterall with the related archdemons Zazikale and Andhoral,this make sense" and their death against the archdemons is an historical fact.

Also what reason he have to lie to you by telling to you that you would die in order to kill the archdemon and that he want to be the first one to sacrifice himslef?

What you said make no sense at all to me.

 

You don't have evidence from the previous blights. We know for a fact the popular stories about the GWs are not true. It has nothing to do with him "lying" to you, and everything to do with him having absolutely no idea. Beyond the fact that the very notion that this is something the GWs could prove is stupid beyond belief, we see at every turn in DA:O that the Wardens actively lie to their lower ranks. Recruits have no idea about the blood magic ritual that is the Joining., or their death Junior Wardens have no idea that they're supposed to obliterate themselves to end a blight. 

Riordan believes what he says to be true. Morrigan believes it too. 

[German Soldier]

 

Riordan believes what he says to be true. Morrigan believes it too. 

Riordan or the Pc warden don't have to believe anything when it comes to the US because GW can sense the archdemon spirit when this attempt to reborn into another darkspawn vessel(Archdemon Dumat codex),this is exactly how the first wardens figured out this.

Not only the GW can see the dragon in their dreams they can also sense his spirit and the senior like Riordan can even understand their speech.

The fact that gameplay wise the warden is

a)incapable to detect the darkspawns like AListair claim

b)incapable to sense the archdemon spirit like the GW can do 

is another matter.

they know because they can sense the soul of the archdemon,it is only Morrigan who need to have faith in her mothers magic

(and funnily enough Flemeth didn't told to morrigan that the soul was removable)

not Riordan who need to believe in what the GW told to him.

[Iakus]

What did Riordan do at the time to justify the degree of faith in what he says? Throughout the game we learn that Wardens blatantly and purposely lie to their recruits, and even their more senior Wardens. Riordan tells you how to supposedly kill the AD. But there's no reason to believe him anymore than Morrigan. Either way you have no way to verify what you're told.

He said a Grey Warden had to strike the killing blow, that doing so would kill the Warden as well, and that as the senior Warden present it would fall on him to make the sacrifice.

 

So yeah, he outright said he'd be willing to die to kill the archdemon, and the Warden and Alistair/Loghain were backups.  Unless killing the archdemon really meant PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER to whoever does the deed, I can't imagine a reason to lie about that.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

He said a Grey Warden had to strike the killing blow, that doing so would kill the Warden as well, and that as the senior Warden present it would fall on him to make the sacrifice.

 

So yeah, he outright said he'd be willing to die to kill the archdemon, and the Warden and Alistair/Loghain were backups.  Unless killing the archdemon really meant PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER to whoever does the deed, I can't imagine a reason to lie about that.

The only one who lied by omission was Flemeth about the OGB because she obviously didn't told to Morrigan that was possible to remove it,otherwise i'm sure morrigan would have tried to gain it for herself.....if only she knew how to do so.....

[biccs_pudding]

Agree on that if Redclieffe is abandoned the villagers become undead hat later the demon use against the warden,that's just show Sten and Morrigan incompetence.

 

Sten and Morrigan (plus the player) had no way of knowing the connection between the demon and the undead becasue not even Teagan knew it at the time, the castle was shut off to everyone outside. They didn't even know there was a demon in the first place until they were already in the castle. Teagan had little to nothing to offer other than emotional blackmail.

Disliking characters is one thing, but you can't really call them incompetent for not knowing meta info. The poor sods have no idea they're in a video game where the Mother Theresa approach is written to be the most effective each and every time by default, and there's ALWAYS a demon/nutballs-mage behind disturbing otherwordly crap.

[Ryzaki]

I don't think leaving the villagers to fend for themselves is dumb at all. Cold and ruthless, sure, but game-logic aside willingly putting yourself and your team (aka the only surviving Grey Wardens around who could possibly end the Blight and thus save countless other lives) in harm's way in a non-Blight-related issue for a single village is way too risky. Same with the Circle, actually. I think people are way too comfortable with the goody-two-shoes playthroughs in RPGs nowadays because the meta formed them to be tehnically superior to any other way, and DA is no exception (I hear that the Witcher kind of is, but I'm not too familiar with that one). They would think twice about it if a random one of your party members dies in a cutscene during the battle against the undead, which is entirely possible from a roleplaying standpoint.

 

At the point of speaking to Teagan about helping Redcliffe out no one actually knows the exact mechanics of the undead attacks. It is just described as some bloody mess that may or may not be related to the Arl's condition. "Using the villagers as meatshields" is not much an option at that moment, and again from a roleplaying standpoint why would they want to do that if they could just simply wait out the night and leave the castle when the undead already receded?

While RPGing I prefer to think big. Yes, the villagers are people, they are suffering, they are not at fault for the massacre they have to face and have no hope of fighting it alone yadda yadda. But all this is a minuscule issue compared to the Blight, which we are technically the best people to end, therefore our little team indeed holds bigger value than a village of a few hundred peasants, Teagan puppy eyes or no. I don't fault either Sten or Morrigan for what they are saying to Teagan. In that situation, in their shoes, without game meta knowledge, I would probably say the same thing and I don't think I would be evil for that. It's not what I did in my canon playthrough, I reluctantly helped, but only because of meta.

 

About Eamon's legacy and Redcliffe's rulership, yes it's a risk to ignore Redcliffe's plight and go straight for an Arl that may not be alive and risking the next-in-line's life at the same time, leaving only Connor who would indeed not be fit to oppose Loghain. But as I said risking your entire team's hide in a battle that might kill us all, Teagan included for all we know isn't objectively better at all.

Let's see the "ignore Redcliffe's plight" scenarios for a bit (this does not include later info about Connor, the Demon, the Sacred Ashes and whatnot):

We find Eamon alive, Teagan dies in battle -> we have an Arl who will most likely help us if cured, regardless of what we did with the village (we don't have to be friends for Eamon to hate Loghain)

We find Eamon dead, but Teagan survived the battle -> we have a new Arl who hates our guts, but would stand up agiainst Loghain nevertheless if he has any brains (again, we don't have to be friends for Teagan to accept the direness of the Loghain situation)

We find Eamon dead, and Teagan also dies -> we're screwed, we get no Landsmeet

 

The odds are against Teagan here. Note that alternatively the last scenario could be replaced with "our team perishes, even if there's a Landsmeet it's pointless".

 

 

 

Offering a way around death is a tempting enough offer even for a non-friend, from her point of view. I don't think she even calculates with the possibility of the Warden willingly choosing the US (which is regardless of a friends-with-her state btw), for she doesn't understand the concept of sacrifice due to her upbringing (which again, I don't count as stupidity, just naiveté and inexperience with the world). She also couldn't calculate with Loghain, as in someone who the Warden would happily toss to the AD and he would even love it. I don't think it could have been foreseen by anyone. As for Alistair, he does whatever the Warden tells him to do and Morrigan knows this since Lothering, pretty much. His grievances don't matter for a second.

As you can see in this thread among many others no doubt, she wasn't entirely off the bat.

 

It's not ruthless whatsoever because you're TOLD the dead add to the undead army. And you need Teagan because you need someone with enough influence to counter Loghain. You know this from the beginning. Leaving that force to only get stronger is stupid. There's no trying to make this choice a wise one. It's just not. I want to slap Sten here too but he at least sees the wisdom in having everyone fight. If companions die due to defending with Redcliffe MORE should die if you're stupid enough to let the army grow even stronger.

 

Also using the villagers as meatshields is EXACTLY what I did. How are you saying that's not a choice? They tell you the undead army gets stronger with more dead being added. It's not rocket science to figure out more dead villagers = stronger army for you to fight with less resources to fight against them.

 

The odds were against Teagan yeah. And so was leaving the village and still holding the landsmeet. Every minute you leave them is more time for them both to die and completely screw you over not to mention the army that gets stronger with more dead. leaving redcliffe is honestly one of the stupider choices in the game to me regardless of my character's alignment. (Only thing worse is giving Branka the anvil).

 

As for pissing off Alistair all she did with that was lower her chances of getting the DR. Also you can fail that persuade with Alistair so the bolded is not true. If she hadn't spent the whole game pissing him off she would've had a fallback plan for if the warden rejected her. As it was she burnt her bridges like a fool. And if she had been trustworthy one might've been willing to rust her with an old god soul. As it was there was little reason for my character to allow her anywhere near it. Self preservation isn't an excuse because there's always a willing sacrifice if the PC isn't (either Alistair or Loghain are always willing to die in the PC's stead). Now if you want to save Alistair/Loghain and your PC you run into issues but if it's just about the PC? Not so much.

 

Again my issue is someone who claims to be a master manipulator doing her best to antagonize who she needs to manipulate. Especially if the warden's a female.
 

Actually I played a manipulative POS evil male mage and wanted to romance Morrigan. Her stupidity by the end of the game had me facepalming so hard and had said character wanting to cleave an axe into her skull. I've played cold manipulative ruthless characters. Morrigan is stupid evil to the fullest in DAO.

[Ryzaki]

What did Riordan do at the time to justify the degree of faith in what he says? Throughout the game we learn that Wardens blatantly and purposely lie to their recruits, and even their more senior Wardens. Riordan tells you how to supposedly kill the AD. But there's no reason to believe him anymore than Morrigan. Either way you have no way to verify what you're told.

 

? Uh why would he lie about that. He literally gains nothing from saying "Btw one of us needs to kill archie and we're gonna die doing so." at the last minute. He didn't even say it when he could've gained something (when he's trying to convince you to recruit Loghain).

 

Yes Redeemer ending has all of DR's pros without worrying about crazy ancient elves with old god souls. Not sure what the issue is considering the hoops you have to jump through to get it with everyone (save Loghain) alive.

[Iakus]

 

Again my issue is someone who claims to be a master manipulator doing her best to antagonize who she needs to manipulate. Especially if the warden's a female.
 

I actually think it's funny.  I mean, Morrigan clearly has had little contact with other people,   It makes sense that she's not as adept at manipulating them as she thinks she is.  

 

Of course she thinks "Do as I say or I'll burn your house down!" is an effective tactic.  I'm sure she has the squirrels of the Kocari WIlds thoroughly cowed  

[German Soldier]

If she hadn't spent the whole game pissing him off she would've had a fallback plan for if the warden rejected her. As it was she burnt her bridges like a fool. And if she had been trustworthy one might've been willing to rust her with an old god soul. As it was there was little reason for my character to allow her anywhere near it. Self preservation isn't an excuse because there's always a willing sacrifice if the PC isn't (either Alistair or Loghain are always willing to die in the PC's stead). Now if you want to save Alistair/Loghain and your PC you run into issues but if it's just about the PC? Not so much.

Again my issue is someone who claims to be a master manipulator doing her best to antagonize who she needs to manipulate. Especially if the warden's a female.

This, i didn't need the DR as there was a clear way out with Loghain which was far better, but that's not even the point since to me the US was clearly a way to write a certain story for tragedy stuff, truly it isn't something that i dislike either it's a powerful ending and one of the few times in which the protagonist of a game is allowed to die.
Here i noticed too many players concerned with fictional survival of a character that is not meant to reappear anymore in-screen so the US is actually also as beautiful as the Redemption to me as book end for DAO.
People(Mostly her fanbase i guess) claim that Morrigan is clever, intelligent,cunning and someone depositary of great knowledge and yet i wonder if i played the same game these people played because i didn't really understood when she showed these qualities in DAO or DAI.
She was insane in DAO and less of a manipulator than the Mabari hound was (funny how the dog manipulate her at Lothering) she destroyed her own path by mocking Alistair or possibly pissing the male warden,
someone who is claiming to be a manipulator who did her best to ruin any possible way to be seen as trustworthy.
Someone should explain this to me:
If Morrigan suggested and approved in killing the elves for a sacrifice and was also happy to kill all the children mages into the tower (obviously with nothing to gain because she was objectively stupid evil there) and didn't want to tell me why she wanted a child with the soul of the archdemon then why my warden should have trusted her with an OGB? Why Bioware? Why DR runners!!?
For all i know she just wanted to sacrifice the child later to gain the soul for herself (Ironically not so far from what Flemeth did in DAI) and become a god.
Her intelligence is still a matter of debate 10 years later when she did splash mode on the well of sorrow and got enslaved to an unknown entity.... and some people say that she is a manipulator and she is clever?
A good manipulator a Master manipulator worthy of this title wouldn't be detectable and also would never tell to it's targets that s/he is a manipulator in the first place.....so facepalm Morrigan....really...
If Morrigan according to the opinion of these players is clever, competent (sure not in elven history for me since she gained a big F from professor Solas), intelligent and a manipulator too than what Flemeth is then?
Since in the worldstate of all the DR runners she gained what she wanted without not even rising her ass from that hut and never bother to kill a darkspawn aside from the few she killed to help Hawke and in doing so herself.

[In Exile]

? Uh why would he lie about that. He literally gains nothing from saying "Btw one of us needs to kill archie and we're gonna die doing so." at the last minute. He didn't even say it when he could've gained something (when he's trying to convince you to recruit Loghain).

 

Yes Redeemer ending has all of DR's pros without worrying about crazy ancient elves with old god souls. Not sure what the issue is considering the hoops you have to jump through to get it with everyone (save Loghain) alive.

 

It's not that he'd purposely lie to you. But someone could very easily have lied to him. Much like how Duncan actively lies to us, or otherwise withholds the truth. Much like how the Warden order lies, generally. 

 

More to the point, you do have to worry about old god souls. It's pure speculation that destroying it is good. 

[biccs_pudding]

It's not ruthless whatsoever because you're TOLD the dead add to the undead army.

 

Teagan says the army always attacks at night, and that's indeed what they do. In the relatively open field of the village they can use their advantage in numbers far more efficiently.

In the castle however, not only the team has the initiative over them by kicking the door in during their not-organized-attack time, the enclosed space and narrow corridors also work for them. Adding a few (relatively weak) extra walking dead doesn't quite pose the same threat as being exposed in an open battle against dozens of them surrounding you at any given time. The last time our merry Wardens had to do something like that was at the battle of Ostagar and we know how well that went, so do the companions no doubt.

Throwing in some meta, the number of undead you face in the battle is close to a hundred. I didn't do an exact count about the ones you encounter in the castle but I recall it wasn't nearly as many.

 

 

And you need Teagan because you need someone with enough influence to counter Loghain. You know this from the beginning.

 

As I said, there's always Eamon, and even if he's already dead and Teagan somehow survives after you abandoned him he'd have to be pretty dense not to at least try to counter Loghain even if he hates the Warden. Having a dead Eamon and later a dead Teagan has about the same chance as having an alive Eamon and a dead Warden.

 

 

Also using the villagers as meatshields is EXACTLY what I did. How are you saying that's not a choice? They tell you the undead army gets stronger with more dead being added. It's not rocket science to figure out more dead villagers = stronger army for you to fight with less resources to fight against them.

 

I'm not saying it wasn't something you could do later as a player. I was saying that from the characters' point of view they only have a Bann before them who knows literally nothing about the nature of the situation and simply assaults the Warden with a "Yes or No" question about shielding their poor naked butts against an allegedly deadly force. To which they say "Ehm, no", and that is somehow wrong, which I don't think it is at that time or even later.

 

 

Also you can fail that persuade with Alistair so the bolded is not true.

 

 

 

You're right about that. Even a high approval Alistair could refuse it if you pick the bad dialogue options, which means that the same goes for Morrigan if she attempted to befriend him. That requires a ton of effort for something that is not ensured even that way. Alistair has a fixed personality as opposed to the player character. Morrigan would have to uphold an act that the direct opposite of her real personality, of which she is incapable of doing since she can't grasp the concepts and ideals Alistair holds in high regard, same could be said about the Warden if he is similar to Alistair in personality. The act would be blown all too soon, risking the plan, so she just doesn't bother with it.

 

Even if she would be capable of appearing as the nicest angel on the planet, it's still entirely possible that the Warden wouldn't be into that type of person even if Alistair is, since the Warden is a variable character. Alistair doesn't even have a "persuade perk" over the Warden to begin with, so appealing to Alistair only (considering how much of a risky effort that would be) doesn't make a bit of sense. She'd either have to appeal for both, or the Warden only (which does have a better chance of success because of the Warden's influence over Alistair).

 

What you would require her to do for maximum efficiency is basically acting towards Alistair in a very specific angelic way, while acting towards the Warden in a potentially highly different way at the same time. Aside from that being a programming nightmare, how would that be not suspicious? It would only work if the Warden is the same kind of goody-two-shoes as Alistair, which doesn't have all that high odds at all.

Considering that she made quite many players to do the DR as she were (50% at the minimun), she must have done some things right. I guess she could have aimed at being a bit more neutral and raise that chance even higher, but that chance would never be a guaranteed 100%. Plus it would make her boring, but that's just me.

 

 

I actually think it's funny.  I mean, Morrigan clearly has had little contact with other people,   It makes sense that she's not as adept at manipulating them as she thinks she is.  

 

Of course she thinks "Do as I say or I'll burn your house down!" is an effective tactic.  I'm sure she has the squirrels of the Kocari WIlds thoroughly cowed  

 

What he said.

[Ryzaki]

This, i didn't need the DR as there was a clear way out with Loghain which was far better, but that's not even the point since to me the US was clearly a way to write a certain story for tragedy stuff, truly it isn't something that i dislike either it's a powerful ending and one of the few times in which the protagonist of a game is allowed to die.
Here i noticed too many players concerned with fictional survival of a character that is not meant to reappear anymore in-screen so the US is actually also as beautiful as the Redemption to me as book end for DAO.
People(Mostly her fanbase i guess) claim that Morrigan is clever, intelligent,cunning and someone depositary of great knowledge and yet i wonder if i played the same game these people played because i didn't really understood when she showed these qualities in DAO or DAI.
She was insane in DAO and less of a manipulator than the Mabari hound was (funny how the dog manipulate her at Lothering) she destroyed her own path by mocking Alistair or possibly pissing the male warden,
someone who is claiming to be a manipulator who did her best to ruin any possible way to be seen as trustworthy.
Someone should explain this to me:
If Morrigan suggested and approved in killing the elves for a sacrifice and was also happy to kill all the children mages into the tower (obviously with nothing to gain because she was objectively stupid evil there) and didn't want to tell me why she wanted a child with the soul of the archdemon then why my warden should have trusted her with an OGB? Why Bioware? Why DR runners!!?
For all i know she just wanted to sacrifice the child later to gain the soul for herself (Ironically not so far from what Flemeth did in DAI) and become a god.
Her intelligence is still a matter of debate 10 years later when she did splash mode on the well of sorrow and got enslaved to an unknown entity.... and some people say that she is a manipulator and she is clever?
A good manipulator a Master manipulator worthy of this title wouldn't be detectable and also would never tell to it's targets that s/he is a manipulator in the first place.....so facepalm Morrigan....really...
If Morrigan according to the opinion of these players is clever, competent (sure not in elven history for me since she gained a big F from professor Solas), intelligent and a manipulator too than what Flemeth is then?
Since in the worldstate of all the DR runners she gained what she wanted without not even rising her ass from that hut and never bother to kill a darkspawn aside from the few she killed to help Hawke and in doing so herself.

 

Truth I'd rather my PC die in peace than be forced to act OOC off screen (or worse on screen.)

 

The weird thing about the mages is pointing out her hypocrisy. But does this lead to a revelation? Nope. 

 

Hey now. Flemeth is the God tier manipulator. (Which really makes Morrigan's fumbling so much worse. You got raised by manipulator extraordinaire and you take 10 years to understand the concept of getting more flies with honey than vinegar how does that happen?)

 

And the worst bit is Morrigan can sometimes be manipulative. She just always always fumbles the ball at the last minute by being stupid as hell. Leliana can at least keep up the act.

 

It's not that he'd purposely lie to you. But someone could very easily have lied to him. Much like how Duncan actively lies to us, or otherwise withholds the truth. Much like how the Warden order lies, generally. 

 

More to the point, you do have to worry about old god souls. It's pure speculation that destroying it is good. 

 

And exactly why would the other wardens lie about this? What gain is there in saying you have to die to kill archie cause it's a 2 for one deal. Lies only make sense when there's a benefit. Telling them they'd die killing archie is likely to make people NOT want to do it.

 

Eh powerful force is taken out of the picture. If it's that or given to someone who flat out admits they have a grudge against the current world I'd take taking it out for 100. Not to mention the OG souls have been being destroyed for centuries and them being corrupted starts blights. The risk of the soul doing that again? Not worth it.

[Ryzaki]

Teagan says the army always attacks at night, and that's indeed what they do. In the relatively open field of the village they can use their advantage in numbers far more efficiently.

In the castle however, not only the team has the initiative over them by kicking the door in during their not-organized-attack time, the enclosed space and narrow corridors also work for them. Adding a few (relatively weak) extra walking dead doesn't quite pose the same threat as being exposed in an open battle against dozens of them surrounding you at any given time. The last time our merry Wardens had to do something like that was at the battle of Ostagar and we know how well that went, so do the companions no doubt.

Throwing in some meta, the number of undead you face in the battle is close to a hundred. I didn't do an exact count about the ones you encounter in the castle but I recall it wasn't nearly as many.

 

 

 

As I said, there's always Eamon, and even if he's already dead and Teagan somehow survives after you abandoned him he'd have to be pretty dense not to at least try to counter Loghain even if he hates the Warden. Having a dead Eamon and later a dead Teagan has about the same chance as having an alive Eamon and a dead Warden.

 

 

 

I'm not saying it wasn't something you could do later as a player. I was saying that from the characters' point of view they only have a Bann before them who knows literally nothing about the nature of the situation and simply assaults the Warden with a "Yes or No" question about shielding their poor naked butts against an allegedly deadly force. To which they say "Ehm, no", and that is somehow wrong, which I don't think it is at that time or even later.

 

 

 

 

You're right about that. Even a high approval Alistair could refuse it if you pick the bad dialogue options, which means that the same goes for Morrigan if she attempted to befriend him. That requires a ton of effort for something that is not ensured even that way. Alistair has a fixed personality as opposed to the player character. Morrigan would have to uphold an act that the direct opposite of her real personality, of which she is incapable of doing since she can't grasp the concepts and ideals Alistair holds in high regard, same could be said about the Warden if he is similar to Alistair in personality. The act would be blown all too soon, risking the plan, so she just doesn't bother with it.

 

Even if she would be capable of appearing as the nicest angel on the planet, it's still entirely possible that the Warden wouldn't be into that type of person even if Alistair is, since the Warden is a variable character. Alistair doesn't even have a "persuade perk" over the Warden to begin with, so appealing to Alistair only (considering how much of a risky effort that would be) doesn't make a bit of sense. She'd either have to appeal for both, or the Warden only (which does have a better chance of success because of the Warden's influence over Alistair).

 

What you would require her to do for maximum efficiency is basically acting towards Alistair in a very specific angelic way, while acting towards the Warden in a potentially highly different way at the same time. Aside from that being a programming nightmare, how would that be not suspicious? It would only work if the Warden is the same kind of goody-two-shoes as Alistair, which doesn't have all that high odds at all.

Considering that she made quite many players to do the DR as she were (50% at the minimun), she must have done some things right. I guess she could have aimed at being a bit more neutral and raise that chance even higher, but that chance would never be a guaranteed 100%. Plus it would make her boring, but that's just me.

 

 

 

What he said.

 

"each time they come back and there's more." It's really really not hard to figure that since it's an undead army and more people are dying they're adding to said dead army. This is not something that requires a high INT. Also the castle that you can't reach without Teagan? Who might've died earlier (or been dragged into the castle?). And then you're stuck staring at a castle you can't get into? You don't know Teagan's gonna be left alive so it's still a stupid plan that you lucked out in. Also the whole point of preparation during the day is so you can funnel the undead where you want and lead them into traps. (First they come from the castle gates, and then later on they come from I suppose the back entrance once their frontal assault failed). You don't get surrounded whatsoever. The come from gates at first, then they ask you to help with the middle of the town. And not once are you flanked. (Unless you stupidly charge down into the middle of the town which I didn't yay for fireball spams) Also the only reason you face more undead in the town than in the castle is do you remember DAO"s lag in big battles? Because if you don't you should. Denerim only funneled a few at a time because the engine would've exploded otherwise. Even in the outside you were attacked in small waves. It wasn't a hundred at once.

 

Actually Eamon's chances of being alive are slim to begin with seeing as there's been no contact from the castle and the last thing you know is that he was sick (via the elf dude in the tavern) and the knight who gives you the ashes quest in Lothering. Leaving Teagan to die in that situation is absurd. Even if you do reach Eamon you already know he's sick. Especially when there's soldiers left alive that can aid in you sieging the castle. Its a stupid thing to do. And no the dead Eamon and dead teagan chances are not the same as a alive eamon and a dead warden. (Particularly not depending on who you bring.) The PC can hold a gate against a large force. His/her safety isn't really in question Eamon and Tegan's is.

 

From the character's POV they need Teagan or Eamon. Teagan is saying he'll probably die without their help. They know Eamon is sick (and probably dying already). Turning your back on him at that point is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Yes he's begging for aid. You also need him. It's a simple concept of scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

 

Are you seriously saying she shouldn't have bothered cause he might've said no? I guess she shouldn't have asked the warden either then right? The warden *might've* said no? (Hell she even makes the offer to a warden that DESPISED her and told her to leave. Someone might always not fall for your manipulation. That certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't stack the deck.) [Not to mention it's a good chance Alistair refused because he didn't trust Morrigan considering one of the fail proof ways to get him to do it is ask him if he trusts you and to do it for you if you have a good relationship with him].

 

Also no she shouldn't appeal to Alistair only and I never said she should. But if she's the master manipulator she claims to be? She should've tried to befriend both of them. Also why would she act differently towards the warden? She's friendly enough (til she falls into hostility). Her not needling and insulting Alistair cause she wanted something from him would've been the sane and manipulative thing to do. Also uh...I hate to break it to you but most players play goody two shoes characters. That actually has a high chance. (As much as it saddens me the darker choices are chosen much less than the nice guy options). Just look at the paragon vs renegade stats. (and smh at how many people cured the genophage with WREAV. WHY).

 

The choice never would've been 100% no but it defintely would've been higher if she didn't feel the need bleh.

[Nixou]

Of course she thinks "Do as I say or I'll burn your house down!" is an effective tactic.  I'm sure she has the squirrels of the Kocari WIlds thoroughly cowed 

 

 

Then again, it's not like traveling with the Warden, who by the end of the game can pretty much bully virtually everyone into submission simply by announcing their name was about to convince her otherwise  

[GoldenGail3]

DA.

[Aren]

Sten and Morrigan (plus the player) had no way of knowing the connection between the demon and the undead becasue not even Teagan knew it at the time, the castle was shut off to everyone outside. They didn't even know there was a demon in the first place until they were already in the castle. Teagan had little to nothing to offer other than emotional blackmail.

Disliking characters is one thing, but you can't really call them incompetent for not knowing meta info. The poor sods have no idea they're in a video game where the Mother Theresa approach is written to be the most effective each and every time by default, and there's ALWAYS a demon/nutballs-mage behind disturbing otherwordly crap.

While one can argue that the chivalry path is the one of whom the player benefit the most throughout the course of the game (including to save Loghain for mercy for the redemption ending) ,in the case of Redcliffe or the tower mages i don't think that the argument have sense since the player is presented with two choices which are being practical and selfless at the same time or being dumb.

One has not to be a genius to figured out that behind an undead army there is magic that was caused either by a mage or a demon (in this case both) so please a little bit of cunning is required,you can't expect that the warden need to hears always everything from everyone else to figure out something.

Morrigan and Sten were simply dumb at Redcliffe by helping those people at Redcliffe by planning and preparing the battle the warden has the subsequent obvious benefits:

-More chance to save Tegan as a substitute for Eamon

-Being owned a favor from Tegan and Eamon

-Decrement the numbers of undead and not letting them be more numerous

-Gain more reputation for the landsmeet,you will still be an hero in Redclieffe

-Having more soldiers for the final battle against the archdemon

-More chance to have a living warden because you know when things are planned 

you have less chance to die,instead to assault the castle without even knowing where all those undeads are.

 

 

 

Where are the advantages in letting Redclieffe burn unless someone whish to help the archdemon and Loghain so badly?

 

 

 

Morrigan approvals were insanity,while Sten approval were sometimes weird.

 

 

At the Dalish camp for example,what's the point in wanting werewolves in your army?

The warden know that these are creatures who brought a terrible disease who can make everyone into one of them,that they are infected and difficult to control,the lady of the forest has her difficulties in control them.

Morrigan  is the only one who approves for their recruitment.

 

 

 

It's not that he'd purposely lie to you. But someone could very easily have lied to him. Much like how Duncan actively lies to us, or otherwise withholds the truth. Much like how the Warden order lies, generally. 

 

More to the point, you do have to worry about old god souls. It's pure speculation that destroying it is good. 

Riordan or the GW have no reason to lie in regard on how the US has to be performed and what effect it has, here it seems to me that your dislike for the order flawed your thought. 

[biccs_pudding]

"each time they come back and there's more." It's really really not hard to figure that since it's an undead army and more people are dying they're adding to said dead army. This is not something that requires a high INT. Also the castle that you can't reach without Teagan? Who might've died earlier (or been dragged into the castle?). And then you're stuck staring at a castle you can't get into? You don't know Teagan's gonna be left alive so it's still a stupid plan that you lucked out in. Also the whole point of preparation during the day is so you can funnel the undead where you want and lead them into traps. (First they come from the castle gates, and then later on they come from I suppose the back entrance once their frontal assault failed). You don't get surrounded whatsoever. The come from gates at first, then they ask you to help with the middle of the town. And not once are you flanked. (Unless you stupidly charge down into the middle of the town which I didn't yay for fireball spams) Also the only reason you face more undead in the town than in the castle is do you remember DAO"s lag in big battles? Because if you don't you should. Denerim only funneled a few at a time because the engine would've exploded otherwise. Even in the outside you were attacked in small waves. It wasn't a hundred at once.

 

Actually Eamon's chances of being alive are slim to begin with seeing as there's been no contact from the castle and the last thing you know is that he was sick (via the elf dude in the tavern) and the knight who gives you the ashes quest in Lothering. Leaving Teagan to die in that situation is absurd. Even if you do reach Eamon you already know he's sick. Especially when there's soldiers left alive that can aid in you sieging the castle. Its a stupid thing to do. And no the dead Eamon and dead teagan chances are not the same as a alive eamon and a dead warden. (Particularly not depending on who you bring.) The PC can hold a gate against a large force. His/her safety isn't really in question Eamon and Tegan's is.

 

Problem is that again, much of that is based on meta info and the fact that this is a video game (like the enemies spawning against you in small numbers because of the engine etc.). Why would the Warden be able to hold the gate as easy as you say? He doesn't know he's a fiction protagonist with plot armor and respawns. For him (and for his companions) this is a non-Blight battle in which they might die. End of the road. The Fifth Blight stretched outside of Ferelden, claimed countless more lives because the two surviving Wardens decided to play Horde Mode in a zombie village and fell on their faces. You as a player don't take this into account, but they as characters simply have to. For them this is an open field battle with uknown odds of success that they don't have to participate in if they don't want to. Gaining a few peasants and the rulers of Redcliffe as allies don't worth a damn if they DIE in an unnecessary extra battle. Yes, they woud be a gain, yes, Teagan alive would be an asset, but that doesn't mean that this is automatically worth that risk. From the team's POV, they still have a whatever small chance to reach the Archdemon without a Landsmeet, but the Wardens dying is literally Game Over for everything.

 

Furthermore, they also don't know at the time of Teagan asking that they can only get into the castle with him. He flat out claims he couldn't enter either, purposefully withholding information from you about the secret passage until you agree to help and the battle is already over. As far as I know, your party doesn't have a telepath. They couldn't possibly have known. Figuring out the bigger threat behind the undead mess is also not a given. This is a fantasy setting with weird magical crap happening on every corner, often with no particular reason from the characters' POV. I'm sure they suspect that something's up, but that something can be any number of things from a possessed coffee table to an irreversible curse. Just like with the Taint itself. Sh-t just happens, but no one really knows why. Heck, even the players don't know with that one.

 

If you roleplayed a character that took all the risks, good for you. But using meta info to claim the alternatives dumb while at the same time not considering that by the same meta we also know that Eamon and Teagan never die either way, the Landsmeet happens either way, and the Warden is able to end the Blight either way is for me a bit inconsistent argument.

 

 

 

Are you seriously saying she shouldn't have bothered cause he might've said no? I guess she shouldn't have asked the warden either then right? The warden *might've* said no? (Hell she even makes the offer to a warden that DESPISED her and told her to leave. Someone might always not fall for your manipulation. That certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't stack the deck.) [Not to mention it's a good chance Alistair refused because he didn't trust Morrigan considering one of the fail proof ways to get him to do it is ask him if he trusts you and to do it for you if you have a good relationship with him].

 

What I'm saying is she can't act like a schizophrenic just to appeal to Alistair some more. The Warden is a variable. Some Wardens (like some of my own) actually became friends with her because of their common dislike of Alistair. Some Wardens genuinely enjoy her personality for all its incosistence and snarkiness. I for sure wouldn't have kept her around if she was a play-for-safe neutral goodie like some other party members already were, and I'm dead sure a lot of people would do the same. If I don't drag her around, she doesn't interact with other party members either, including Alistair (since I'm the boss who ensembles the group and not him combined with the fact that Morrigan wants to keep the biggest distance possible from everyone else while in camp). What's the difference between Alistair agreeing to comply to someone he despises but at least knows, or trusting someone who is practically a brooding stranger? I'd say not much, you might disagree.

 

 

 

Also uh...I hate to break it to you but most players play goody two shoes characters. That actually has a high chance.

 

Proof? The world doesn't revolve around BSN, it's a distorted demographic (I don't mean this in an offensive way). Aside from that, one doesn't have to be cackling evil to accept the DR, as it revolves around mostly the necessity of death and sacrifice, not black&white morals. Morrigan no doubt knows that, even if she's shortsighted in other things.

 

As for her skills for manipulation, she definitely has an inconsistent and shaky self image. She has the abilty, yes, but not the experience. Her falling flat on her face with the DR is something that I consider to be actually better to her character arc, and the Romance-Human Baby-Going through the Eluvian would be my canon playthrough if not for my fascination with the Old Gods.

[Qun00]

The only problem I see with the Dark Ritual is that it sets a terrible precedent. It will become impossible to ever explain why the Grey Wardens are necessary.

Ruler: Why should I lend you aid? My army is more than enough to defeat these dreadful darkspawn.

GW: You see... if the archdemon is slain by normal means, it will simply take over the body of a darkspawn and recover. But when it is defeated by a Grey Warden, it is lured by his tainted blood instead.

Since a Warden isn't a soul less husk like the darkspawn and one body cannot contain two souls, they die together.

Ruler: I applaud your creativity, but I should remind you that the Hero of Ferelden still lives. Curious, no?

GW: ...

[Ryzaki]

 

This crappy page keeps refreshing and I'm not in the mood to retype everything so I'll slim it down.

 

You're using metagame info of Teagan and Eamon surviving. You're also using the odd excuse of "but the warden might die!" when this applies for every single main quest in the game.  Elves? You might get infested by the werewolf virius and then what? Dwarves? Um...alone in the deep roads is all that needs to be said. Mages? Trapped in a tower filled with abominations and demons and the door's locked behind you. Risk is a non issue because it's always present. It'd be one thing if this was some sidequest but it's not. You need Teagan to even face up to Loghain considering you're considered traitors to the crown and you also need Fereldan's army to repel the darkspawn. Without this you're fighting a civil war and the darkspawn at the same time and it's simply not going to work. Teagan withholds info to get you to be more likely to help yes so does Morrigan.

 

Also I've roleplayed all kinds of characters but for the most part the risks are lower when you stand with the villagers in Redcliffe. It has nothing to do with playing a good two shoes character (most of my characters were douchebags anyway).

 

As for the more people pick nice choices there's plenty of quotes from the devs and here's a mass effect stat.

 

 

Look at that paragon percentage compared to renegade look at that kept the genophage stat look at the mordin stat. The darker choices are almost always the minority. You're right BSN isn't the example to use. We use the more questionable options far more than the general public.  You wouldn't find many BSNers who saved the genophage with Wreav in charge meanwhile 64% of people HAD Wreav and at least 50% of them cured the genophage with him involved! (Considering only 8% didn't cure it). Even the Quarian stat. The Quarians are portrayed as the aggressors and the geth as the innocents. Almost as many people let the Quarians die as save them both (the most goody option however it's prerequisites probably stop people who haven't done the previous games from getting it the Geth is the paragon option there if you can't get both seeing as 40% have the LS medal that you get from completing a previous game or ME3 twice).

 

I'm pretty sure Weekes said letting the Chargers die was a hilariously low stat as well.

 

As for Morrigan it's not schizo unless you compare it to her past game behavior which would be a non issue.

[Iakus]

 

Look at that paragon percentage compared to renegade look at that kept the genophage stat look at the mordin stat. The darker choices are almost always the minority. You're right BSN isn't the example to use. We use the more questionable options far more than the general public.  You wouldn't find many BSNers who saved the genophage with Wreav in charge meanwhile 64% of people HAD Wreav and at least 50% of them cured the genophage with him involved! (Considering only 8% didn't cure it).

 

Reminds me of an interview I saw with Telltale Games after their first Walking Dead game had been out a while.  They were surprised at the data they were receiving.  Even in a zombie apocalypse, where it might not be in their best interest, people were still trying to make sure Lee did "the right thing"  It made them re-evaluate how they presented moral choices.

[Ryzaki]

Reminds me of an interview I saw with Telltale Games after their first Walking Dead game had been out a while.  They were surprised at the data they were receiving.  Even in a zombie apocalypse, where it might not be in their best interest, people were still trying to make sure Lee did "the right thing"  It made them re-evaluate how they presented moral choices.

 

Yep people like playing the good guy. It gives warm fuzzies I don't blame em. Like even when playing douchebag Lee I can't be mean to Clementine. (and good lord trying to find a let's play with someone being a douche when a game just comes out? Ugh. Later on you usually get a few good ones but in the beginning good luck.)

[Iakus]

Yep people like playing the good guy. It gives warm fuzzies I don't blame em. Like even when playing douchebag Lee I can't be mean to Clementine. (and good lord trying to find a let's play with someone being a douche when a game just comes out? Ugh. Later on you usually get a few good ones but in the beginning good luck.)

That was actually one example cited.  In the second episode, they noted the amount of face-punching the Lees did declined dramatically after cutting the camera to show Clementine was watching him 

[Qun00]

Reminds me of an interview I saw with Telltale Games after their first Walking Dead game had been out a while.  They were surprised at the data they were receiving.  Even in a zombie apocalypse, where it might not be in their best interest, people were still trying to make sure Lee did "the right thing"  It made them re-evaluate how they presented moral choices.

Speaking of failure at presenting conflicting moral choices, I think it was a mistake to allow players to save both Amaranthine and Vigil's Keep.

[biccs_pudding]

You're using metagame info of Teagan and Eamon surviving. You're also using the odd excuse of "but the warden might die!" when this applies for every single main quest in the game.  

 

Yes, but those side quests never offered a similar chance for you to simply not participate in them if they required risking your hide and find other means because video game. RP-wise, they very well should have, and I'm sure both Sten and Morrigan would have similar stances on most of those nonexistent choices. This is especially 'gamey' in the Broken Circle quest where you even have an option to let the Templars carry out the Right of Annulment once the reinforcements arrive from Denerim... but you must clean out the Tower first and do their job for them all on your own anyways. There's no way to help them carry out the Annulment on their side or just wait for the reinforcements to arrive with some penalties to other subplots because of time loss.

On the other hand, you can strike a deal with the demon in Redcliffe instead of fighting her at all costs. That is a nice RP touch.

 

Some allies are clearly necessary though, but every potential ally is in the middle of a violent conflict (something that the characters also don't know until they reach each one on foot due to the absence of ThedasNet). I'm curious which poison they would pick if they did know about this quest design but we'll never know now.

 

This is a combat-based RPG, so the player character needs a certain minimum of XP to proceed, therefore the designers force you to participate in those battles, even if it doesn't make the most sense storywise. It's a good enough compromise for me of course, but I sure wish there were more "tricks" to avoid battles through the game, like the one with that Desire Demon.

 

 

Teagan withholds info to get you to be more likely to help yes so does Morrigan.

 

Morrigan withholding information about either her DR intentions or the Flemeth thing (that have nothing to do with the Redcliffe arc) doesn't make Teagan less of a manipulative jerk.

 

 

As for the more people pick nice choices there's plenty of quotes from the devs and here's a mass effect stat.

 

Aside from that being a Mass Effect stat, even BioWare doesn't have the entire gaming population's history in their notepads even now in the always-connected age, just a portion of them at most. Non-BSN people won't be in there, pirates won't be there, people who played offline won't be in there (which is many many players) etc. I consider myself a core gamer, played all Bioware games so far, but I sure as hell have never been asked about my choice history by the devs before the DA Keep, nor could they have possibly fished it from me through the net.

 

Now that they have the Keep, I can see them using those stats in their future character designs, even though I wish they wouldn't do so and just continue to design their creations as they see the best (I'm generally opposed to fan service and have a big issue with Telltale games as a result).

At the time of DAO, up to 2009 (alas at the time of the Morrigan-behaviour-design period), not only did they not have such a method, I doubt they would have done so even if they could.

 

Let's say you're right and about 70% of all the players of the world were goodies and 30% of them baddies. Would this justify them tweaking Morrigan's behaviour towards neutral good (or neutral whatever), even if that 30% would enjoy it a lot more otherwise? Never mind that even goodie characters could do the DR with her without moral consequences, or some goodies brought her along simply for entartainment.

 

How is it that flat out evil characters like HK-47 (or Morrigan herself to an extent) are considered fan favorites then?

 

 

As for Morrigan it's not schizo unless you compare it to her past game behavior which would be a non issue.

 

I honestly don't get what you mean here. We are still talking about her person within the same game. The Warden, Alistair and the player meet her at the same time, at which point she already acts a certain way. There is no past beyond that.