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Sacrifice or Dark Ritual?


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#451
Ryzaki

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*snip*

 

...really? You're really trying to cling to the danger argument? You end up going back to Redcliffe later anyway. So that's not even a decent excuse.

 

In the broken circle quest they flat out say they can't help you til reinforcements arrive. You decide well screw it you'll do their job for them cause you need them now. You were kind of in a rush during the game you know?

 

And Teagan is one of those necessary allies. I'm not sure why you you're under the impression that the dwarven king sending you on fetch quests to do his dirty work (especially with those thugs in lowtown) are a more valuable risk of the warden's life than Redcliffe. (Heck the Orzammar king sends you on three different fetch quests to get him on the throne each on getting progressively more dangerous). If your PC was so risk adverse he/she would've went to Orlais and cut their losses. Seeing as that's not an option and each main quest has you risking your life...

 

The desire demon is restricted to mages. (It's pretty meh that you'd go all that way and let her go tho. You've already done 99% of the work. That said at least there's the GTFO option with her nice touch for my mage. He wasn't interested in bloodmagic (too interested in political power to allow a noose like that around his neck) and getting her to run off with her tail between her legs was amusing.

 

He's a manipulative jerk because he won't let you get what you want and leave him and his men to die? How dare he! [/s] Seriously? Just seriously?

 

Come on now. Admit it most people pick the good options. Unless you think for some baffling reason the stats would flip on their head for the people that opt out (remember you have to opt OUT something most people don't even do to start with). And as Iakus JUST said this isn't a Mass Effect thing. It goes through genres. Trying to cling to people mostly doing the dark options is just do you have any proof of that?

 

I'm not talking about tweaking her for the players. I'm talking about tweaking her so her bleating about being manipulative and savvy actually make sense.

 

She is snarky for about 2 minutes. She could easily handwave that off as her having a bad day (but seeing as she knows what she needs Alistair (particularly if the warden is female) for from the beginning of the game yeah there's no little for her to that antagonist from the jump and to even worse increase it as time goes on).

 

Also my favorite types of villains show empathy and kindness. Being pleasant doesn't make you less of a vile person (in some cases it can make it even worse).

 

Also HK-47 and Wrex are fan favorites because of their player interaction. If Morrigan treated the player the way she treated Alistair no she wouldn't be as popular. She is actually extremely flattering towards the player to begin with and only gets snippy when you're low in approval. (Also she's the EASIEST companion to bribe with gifts so even goody two shoes characters can have her maxed very early.)


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#452
Ryzaki

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That was actually one example cited.  In the second episode, they noted the amount of face-punching the Lees did declined dramatically after cutting the camera to show Clementine was watching him  :D

 

LOL I'm not surprised. I don't wanna corrupt my poor Clementine. <3

 

Oh god I wanted to use that pitchfork so bad. But Clem...I didn't want her to see that. :unsure:



#453
Qun00

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It is Arl Eamon's support that we need. Teagan merely is the middle man. If there is a necessary detour from darkspawn slaying, that is the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

#454
German Soldier

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The only problem I see with the Dark Ritual is that it sets a terrible precedent. It will become impossible to ever explain why the Grey Wardens are necessary.

Ruler: Why should I lend you aid? My army is more than enough to defeat these dreadful darkspawn.

GW: You see... if the archdemon is slain by normal means, it will simply take over the body of a darkspawn and recover. But when it is defeated by a Grey Warden, it is lured by his tainted blood instead.

Since a Warden isn't a soul less husk like the darkspawn and one body cannot contain two souls, they die together.

Ruler: I applaud your creativity, but I should remind you that the Hero of Ferelden still lives. Curious, no?

GW: ...

I disagree with the argument since beings like Corypheus or possibly the Architect (who started a semi blight) whom are similar to the archdemons are unaffected to the ultimate sacrifice.
Also my issue with the DR are far from being the secrecy of it,but more likely toy with an unknown being and give it for no reason to an Evanuris that's is the problem and the issue.


#455
Nixou

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Also I've roleplayed all kinds of characters but for the most part the risks are lower when you stand with the villagers in Redcliffe. It has nothing to do with playing a good two shoes character (most of my characters were douchebags anyway).

 

 

Which is a recurring problem in Bioware's game: the "goodie two shoes" choices almost always bring the greatest benefits, which means that even if you want to make your character an unrepentant bully, unless you want to roleplay an imbecile, s/he's going to make essentially the same choices as a lawful good character.

 

And that's also why I appreciate the inclusion of the Dark Ritual in Origins: it's one of the few cases where the selfish choice actually benefit the player character the most, instead of immediately backfiring, which for once creates a genuine moral dilemma. (Unless you've made your protagonist a selfish me-firster from the star, in which case there's no dilemma and only roleplaying involved)

 

***

 

Speaking of failure at presenting conflicting moral choices, I think it was a mistake to allow players to save both Amaranthine and Vigil's Keep. 

 

 

I disagree: the possibility to save both location was a reward to completionist players, and I for one like it when a game reward completionists with more than "the main story will be ridiculously easy since doing all the sidequests turned your team into a crew of unstoppable munchkins" (looking at you, Xenoblade).

 

Besides, like the Dark Ritual, it was an occasion to define the Warden's personality: see, I envisioned my main Warden as a very cocksure yet obsessively perfectionist individual: the opportunity to have my character

  1. Do everything in her power to turn Vigil's Keep into an impregnable fortress to the point of micromanaging several aspects of the rebuilding.
  2. Express extreme confidence that all her effort paid off.
  3. Be vindicated by the results

felt like the game was -for-once- acknowledging the characterization I had chosen.



#456
Aren

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Yep people like playing the good guy. It gives warm fuzzies I don't blame em. 

Yup,while playing a douchebag in order to gain immediate gain from quests often doesn't make sense for people because it's a game anyway.
Helping Redcliffe? Sure why not, i paid for this game and i want to enjoy this main quest rather than skipping it because i'm worried of  fictional survival.

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#457
Aren

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Speaking of failure at presenting conflicting moral choices, I think it was a mistake to allow players to save both Amaranthine and Vigil's Keep.

I don't think so given the fact that you have to spend resources and money to protect the keep "Cough cough while the improvement on skyhold are useless",also it is a good way to not pampering the player ego which in DAO is very much pampered,to tell to the player,

"see they protected themselves in the keep without your warden"



#458
Gaia300

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And that's also why I appreciate the inclusion of the Dark Ritual in Origins: it's one of the few cases where the selfish choice actually benefit the player character the most, instead of immediately backfiring, which for once creates a genuine moral dilemma. (Unless you've made your protagonist a selfish me-firster from the star, in which case there's no dilemma and only roleplaying involved)

 

 

It depends on the scenario of Redcliffe,those who roleplayed a complete paragon chevalier saved Loghain for mercy (Not even Alistair is capable of such compassion) yet with the redemption ending they gained the same benefit of the ritual without any uncertainty for the future in regard of the archdemon soul.

The warden who kill himself/herself with Loghain in the party just doesn't makes sense(unless it is done on purpose for tragedy stuff) ,since you know that he will be exiled from ferelden regardless



#459
Ryzaki

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Yup,while playing a douchebag in order to gain immediate gain from quests often doesn't make sense for people because it's a game anyway.
Helping Redcliffe? Sure why not, i paid for this game and i want to enjoy this main quest rather than skipping it because i'm worried of  fictional survival.

 

 

well my issue isn't with that as much as most of the time the evil choices are stupid, psychotic and would get most people lynched. I like low key evil not herp derp I'm so bad evil. (Granted the latter has it's charms but it takes me out of the story because why would so many people follow and trust said person?)


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#460
Ryzaki

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Which is a recurring problem in Bioware's game: the "goodie two shoes" choices almost always bring the greatest benefits, which means that even if you want to make your character an unrepentant bully, unless you want to roleplay an imbecile, s/he's going to make essentially the same choices as a lawful good character.

 

And that's also why I appreciate the inclusion of the Dark Ritual in Origins: it's one of the few cases where the selfish choice actually benefit the player character the most, instead of immediately backfiring, which for once creates a genuine moral dilemma. (Unless you've made your protagonist a selfish me-firster from the star, in which case there's no dilemma and only roleplaying involved)

 

Yeah being sensible evil always comes across as villian with good publicity (which works for me might not work for others). That said ME actually was pretty good with the choices not completely being lopsided. There was some bits that were clearly better than others but for the most part most of the punishing came if you tried to mix paragon and renegade. If you stayed consistent you were better off.

 

That said I was so glad for the inclusion of the Redeemer ending. Bullet dodged. Yes it takes a lot of work and some character tweaking for me to have it work but eh it works.


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#461
straykat

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I went with sacrifice my first playthrough.. and ended my last that way. I've done everything else, but that's what I settled on, I guess. And in retrospect, it's the most coherent.. simply because it's over. You never have to deal with it again. Sad if you romanced Leliana like I did.. but she makes some sense this way. Although it's not necessary. Justinia is enough to cause her grief. Or Wynne.


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#462
Qun00

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I disagree with the argument since beings like Corypheus or possibly the Architect (who started a semi blight) whom are similar to the archdemons are unaffected to the ultimate sacrifice.
Also my issue with the DR are far from being the secrecy of it,but more likely toy with an unknown being and give it for no reason to an Evanuris that's is the problem and the issue.


Why wouldn't the US work on Coryphenis?

#463
biccs_pudding

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...really? You're really trying to cling to the danger argument? You end up going back to Redcliffe later anyway. So that's not even a decent excuse.

 

Meta, meta and meta again. I know that we get back to Redcliffe, I played this game a dozen times. My characters didn't. No need for the patronizing tone, it gains you nothing and is unpleasant to read. I do realize I'm on BSN but still.

 

 

In the broken circle quest they flat out say they can't help you til reinforcements arrive. You decide well screw it you'll do their job for them cause you need them now. You were kind of in a rush during the game you know?

 

The game's campaign spans about a whole year. Lake Calenhad isn't exactly the North Pole, those reinforcements should arrive in a week tops. If the team has the time to go be disaster tourists back at Ostagar, then they surely have time for this. I also said that the decision shouldn't be without its penalties. First Enchanter Irving dying is a given in this case, which means entering the Fade in Redcliffe has to come with a sacrifice. On top of that, the situation in the Brecilian Forest could escalate beyond the point that Zathrian could not be convinced to parley anymore because of the extra days that passed. Avoid a boss fight, get stuck with another. A lot of depth can be added by just tinkering a bit with the design, it isn't rocket science. The Right of Annulment could very well have been a valid alternative instead of a cackling evil afterthought.

 

 

And Teagan is one of those necessary allies. I'm not sure why you you're under the impression that the dwarven king sending you on fetch quests to do his dirty work (especially with those thugs in lowtown) are a more valuable risk of the warden's life than Redcliffe. (Heck the Orzammar king sends you on three different fetch quests to get him on the throne each on getting progressively more dangerous). If your PC was so risk adverse he/she would've went to Orlais and cut their losses. Seeing as that's not an option and each main quest has you risking your life...

 

Yes, he could have done that, but that wouldn make for an awfully exciting video game *shrugs*. As I said, I'm okay with compromises, which the game doesn't offer much of. The Orzammar fetch quest is again a compulsory XP gathering fest that cannot be avoided (which I didn't even bring up so far, not sure why you felt the need for making the assumption), there isn't any approach around it. I could spend all day rewriting the subplots but it's not my job, nor do I feel that it's all that big of an issue. But it doesn't stop being a problem that's there.

 

 

The desire demon is restricted to mages. (It's pretty meh that you'd go all that way and let her go tho. You've already done 99% of the work.

 

At least it's there, and it was a nice enough addition I appreciated but didn't get enough in other parts of the game. In DAI, the "picking your own battles" thing is what I feel they have done better, partly because of the different design of an open world but not only because of it. Plenty of opportunities for a low-risk Inquisitor to choose. The deal with Imshael in Emprise du Lion was my favorite Deal with a Demon so far in DA. Granted, a low-risk Inquisitor shouldn't even set foot into that fortress (and wouldn't really lose anything), but even a cocksure Inqy thinks twice about getting into a boss fight of unknown nature after they already battled themselves through Giants, horrors and whatnot.

 

 

He's a manipulative jerk because he won't let you get what you want and leave him and his men to die? How dare he! [/s] Seriously? Just seriously?

 

Yes, he's pretty stupid at that point for a person of his rank who supposedly knows a thing or two about risks and politics. Just because a Warden refuses to give into his blackmail and won't participate in a battle he has nothing to do with he shouldn't just give him the finger and not let him progress to end the freaking Blight. He knowingly endangers the lives of the only two people in Ferelden who could physically kill the Archdemon for the sake of his own village. The stakes don't measure, he as a politician should understand that and not act like a kindergartener with a grudge. The Warden could be the biggest a-hole in the world, but at the time of the Blight he is de facto more important than that entire village combined. Teagan has to be pretty damn shortsighted not to accept that and swallow the bitter pill.

 

 

Come on now. Admit it most people pick the good options. Unless you think for some baffling reason the stats would flip on their head for the people that opt out (remember you have to opt OUT something most people don't even do to start with). And as Iakus JUST said this isn't a Mass Effect thing. It goes through genres. Trying to cling to people mostly doing the dark options is just do you have any proof of that?

 

Why would I need to prove anything? I didn't present anything as "Ah, hate to break it to you" facts or distorted stats. I can only speak for myself and the players I know, not more, not less. I don't actually care for percentages, this is not a presidential election. It just saddens me that game companies are now more prone to turn into that populist direction. I'm one of those weirdos who would have been exalted at the chance to control the Inquisition as a brutal Andraste-wannabe and just bully everyone into submission. I don't see evil playthroughs slowly disappearing entirely as a good thing.

 

 

She is snarky for about 2 minutes. She could easily handwave that off as her having a bad day (but seeing as she knows what she needs Alistair (particularly if the warden is female) for from the beginning of the game yeah there's no little for her to that antagonist from the jump and to even worse increase it as time goes on).

 

I doubt she knew what she would jump into from that first time she's seen you even before Ostagar. The one who antagonizes her right off the bat is actually Alistair himself, while Morrigan focuses a lot more on the Warden from the beginning. To build on that later is I think an actually reasonable tactic. As I said before, the very reason some players kept her around more was their famous back-and-forth with Alistair. Whether the trade for better familiarity with those kind of Wardens is worth not bothering with Alistair altogether, I cannot say. But I wouldn't jump to conclusions about the opposite based only on speculation and assumed meta knowledge of the world's player base.

If all the negatives you're presenting would be as significant as you say, hardly any Alistair romancers/sympathizers would have gone through the DR. I doubt this would be the case.

 

 

Also HK-47 and Wrex are fan favorites because of their player interaction. If Morrigan treated the player the way she treated Alistair no she wouldn't be as popular. She is actually extremely flattering towards the player to begin with and only gets snippy when you're low in approval. (Also she's the EASIEST companion to bribe with gifts so even goody two shoes characters can have her maxed very early.)

 

So.... what's the problem with the attitude again?



#464
Ryzaki

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So.... what's the problem with the attitude again?

 

*sigh* at this point you're right I can't be bothered. I'm getting snippy too. *shrug*

 

Also the last bit tells me you're clearly not reading what I'm saying. Nevermind I can't be bothered slamming my head into a wall anymore.



#465
Aren

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Why wouldn't the US work on Coryphenis?

Honestly it's still unknown, but we know that the US is useless against Cory since he managed to survive inside Janeka or Larius.
Corypheus is very much immortal more than an Archdemon but his mistake was to create his dragon pet.

#466
Iakus

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Which is a recurring problem in Bioware's game: the "goodie two shoes" choices almost always bring the greatest benefits, which means that even if you want to make your character an unrepentant bully, unless you want to roleplay an imbecile, s/he's going to make essentially the same choices as a lawful good character.

 

 

 

Usually, yes.  But you can also team up with the Crows in DAO.  Something a goody-two shoes Warden isn't likely to do (What?  Work for assassins!?  Are you mad!?)  And yet it ends up working to the Warden's benefit.  ANd heck, you can even betray Ignacio and kill him afterwards!



#467
Iakus

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Why wouldn't the US work on Coryphenis?

Because Corypheus has proven himself capable of possessing any tainted creature, darkspawn or Warden.

 

Plus, his control of the taint is so strong he can actually control Wardens that get too close to him.  Grey Wardens can't attack him even if they want to.  THus why he was imprisoned after the First Blight, not killed.  It's the best they could do.

 

This is stuff even an archdemon can't manage.



#468
Aren

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In regard of the Dark ritual i always thought the same thing:
the Old god Urthemiel must die until i will be given reason to do otherwise for a plausible logic that is better than just
"Ancient magic must be preserved regardless of the danger"
Morrigan explained her reasons to the Inquisitor as for why ancient magic should be preserved regardless of the danger,in the temple of Mythal and soon after that the Old god was taken by Flemeth,and well i think that her explanation was idiotic to say the least , she doesn't provide any logic behind her actions but just a belief system.
She just follow her belief system and she doesn't care whatever that magic will kill others people.
 


#469
Tidus

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Aren, I also save Redcliff, its the right thing to do if one needs support-winning of the heart and mind in military speak. Tidus will do the DR or Camine will con Alistair into doing the DR for the reasons I mention before. As far as killing those that help Tidus and the one he loves and cherishes  above all.. Nope be like killing your own platoon after they pulled you out of the fire. 

 

The idea of killing your comrades and allowing that asp Loghain to live is stupid at best.



#470
Aren

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Aren, I also save Redcliff, its the right thing to do if one needs support-winning of the heart and mind in military speak. Tidus will do the DR or Camine will con Alistair into doing the DR for the reasons I mention before. As far as killing those that help Tidus and the one he loves and cherishes  above all.. Nope be like killing your own platoon after they pulled you out of the fire. 

 

The idea of killing your comrades and allowing that asp Loghain to live is stupid at best.

Loghain's joining   was suggested by Riordan and it was smart and worthwhile for me since he was really helpful and managed to save my warden life a smart move.
 
 
as for the DR choice Abelas already summarized everything of my thought when it comes to Morrigan.
"To keep it from you grasping fingers!Better it be lost than bestowed to the undeserving!"


#471
Tidus

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Aren, I think you may recall why that asp of a man Loghain is killed my games.. He will never be pardon and set free.

 

Either one of my wardens knows dying for nothing means nothing and won't improve the human/Elf relations so, both decides the DR is the better part of valor. 



#472
Qun00

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Loghain's joining   was suggested by Riordan and it was smart and worthwhile for me since he was really helpful and managed to save my warden life a smart move.
 
 

as for the DR choice Abelas already summarized everything of my thought when it comes to Morrigan.
"To keep it from you grasping fingers!Better it be lost than bestowed to the undeserving!"


But isn't it nice that Morrigan is punished for her greed this time around? It is better to let her get her what she wants and immediately regret it.

#473
Tidus

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Qun00, I'm not fond of Morrigan but, I know dying for nothing means nothing and nothing will be gain by dying a valuable lesson learned in the days of my youth. For those that died all they got for dying was their name being placed on a black wall. 

 

Even if the HOF dies striking the last blow he/she will gain very little and the city Elves will continue to suffer under the human nobles. Nothing will be gain for the brands in Dust Town either.

 

The only one that gains by Pup Cousland's death is his brother since he will be appointed  Arl of Highever.

 

If the player plays his cards right the Dalish will get land of their own granted by King Alistair and if the player doesn't go that route then they get nothing.



#474
Donquijote and 59 others

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Nah it's not misguided it's straight up stupidity. Redcliffe is a prime example. You gain nothing by leaving everyone to fend for themselves. (It just makes your job harder) the smartest (if a bit cold) thing to do in that situation would be to use the redcliffe villagers as meatshields. Not allow them to be used against you.

 

Then she spends the whole game antagonizing who she needs for the DR (especially facepalm worthy if your pc is a female). But prides herself on manipulation? Her ridiculousness in DAO continues to baffle me.

Its seems writers have to put one "evil" character in to the story, just because. But instead of evil, it comes across stupid.


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#475
Jedi Comedian

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Sacrifice, not because of GW honor but because I do not want to survive at the cost of giving away a son of mine.
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