560 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

 

(1) Impossible,the outcome is the same and the two different scenes share pretty much the same dialogues conversations,due to the fact that the DR bring us to a nullification.

(2) Is not the case of an heavy handed moralizing, GW are not meant to be heroes, the Ultimate sacrifice is just a weapon to eliminate the essence of the Old God, the sacrifice is there for people who do not despise responsability as GW not for "heroes".

(3) Aside from the fact that we discover that Kieran gain little if nothing from the AD,due to the fact that they are two separate entities,Urthemiel is Urthemiel and he is just using the boy as a vessel,

he do not even thinking twice before to abandon him and reach a more powerful host,the old god never grant his power to the boy until the very end in which he travel across  the eluvian,he just share some of his knowledge.

(4) I couldn't care less of what Morrigan want.

 

 

1. I don't agree that the DR is the more interesting choice, but the DR could still lead to something meaningful. It isn't null. It's just that we don't see the end result yet.

 

2. I think Ieldra was only giving his personal impression of it.

 

3. His point was that during the time when you had to decide between the DR or not, he believed it might grant humans some ancient power. He fully recognizes that this did not pan out, that Kieran gained nothing and Flemeth took the power for herself eventually.

 

4. Well good for you then, you don't like Morrigan. Ieldra does.

[Akiza]

 

 

4. Well good for you then, you don't like Morrigan. Ieldra does.

I'm interested only to replay on the last point,because i sincerely believe that you have misunderstanded my response there.

When i say i couldn't care less of what Morrigan want, i imply that i genuinely believe that this woman do not even know what she is doing in most cases,even in DAI,this is why i don't care of what she want.

I do not follow the advice of someone who lack in wisdom like Morrigan,this was her mother plan all along and yet she is ready to complete the plan because?

She does not provide to you any substantial information during the DR not because she doesn't want to,but because she do not know more than what she has said to you,and yet she act like someone who is depositary of great knowledge when this is obviously untrue.

Have you listened to her response after the fade scene,when she talk to the Inquisitor? She say something on the line "my mother wanted the old god soul all along" now what this suppose to mean? Why she is so surprised?

Is she truly so stupid? This was the reason of why her mother has sent her in the first place with the Warden..

She talk about her son destiny,when this is destiny does not even exist,whoever is the vessel of an ancient being,is forced to do the will of that being,Flemeth is not an exception she has to seek Mythal revenge or Mythal will abandon her,Mythal grant to her her knowledge and power,and Flemeth provide a body.

This is why if you engage Flemeth in her hut in DAO she say something like "what foolish plan Morrigan has prepared?", Flemeth was already aware that due to her daughter powermongering selfish desire,her plan could have been to aquire the AD soul to try to build a child for earth shattering event on the world,sorry but this is not how it works so in the end to prevent  her daughter from doing something utterly stupid she has decided to put the soul away from the world.

This is why i love Flemeth she is wise,but she is also humble,she is not arrogant despite the fact that she is depositary of great knowledge.

Similarly Solas is depositary of great knowledge,and he is genuinely pissed by Morrigan arrogance at the temple,and he is completly right.

I utterly despise arrogant people,however when they possess vast knowledge at least i have to admit that they have a point,like Abelas or sometimes Solas, with Morrigan however is not even the case.

[Qun00]

The Old God soul isn't going to be important going forward any more than any other imported consequence has any chance of being important going forward. At most it might provide some flavor dialogue or some slight variation on a scene but no meaningfully significant narrative variation.

BioWare has proven time and time again that they don't do much with any variable consequences/world states, especially going from game to game. At this point with AAA development, I think its just way too costly to do too much of that and BioWare has never done much of it.

People are too whiny.

I'm sure you said we'd never hear about Morrigan's child ever again back when DA:O was new, but here he is.

[Dai Grepher]

 

I'm interested only to replay on the last point,because i sincerely believe that you have misunderstanded my response there.

When i say i couldn't care less of what Morrigan want, i imply that i genuinely believe that this woman do not even know what she is doing in most cases,even in DAI,this is why i don't care of what she want.

I do not follow the advice of someone who lack in wisdom like Morrigan,this was her mother plan all along and yet she is ready to complete the plan because?

 

Fair enough, but my only point is that your reasons aren't a counterargument to Ieldra's stance of doing what Morrigan wants. I think a better rebuttal to that would be, "did you do everything else in the game that Morrigan wanted as well?"

[Secret Rare]

People are too whiny.

I'm sure you said we'd never hear about Morrigan's child ever again back when DA:O was new, but here he is.

quite difficult since i was not even into the BSN at the time.

[LOLandStuff]

Being dead made it difficult to brag about killing an Archdemon.

And I really like living. Like a lot.

[Akiza]

Fair enough, but my only point is that your reasons aren't a counterargument to Ieldra's stance of doing what Morrigan wants. I think a better rebuttal to that would be, "did you do everything else in the game that Morrigan wanted as well?"

In that specific case i cannot make any opposite argument,because it is simply a personal preference leaded by subjective perception on the character in the case of Leldra response.

While my n4 point actually is not guided simply by personal dislike of the character more likely to the fact that i do not trust Morrigan's wisdom,this is why i cannot count on her on important matters, like an AD soul or a well of sorrow,or important analysis in difficult situations.

I mean in those situations her judgment was often if not always too harsh and with complete lack of understanding of the situations,like the mages into the circle or the elves in the alienage or the Dalish elves,i'm simply incapable to follow her advices because they are too often colored with bitterness.

 

And I really like living. Like a lot.

As am I,but Morrigan is not needed for that,and the benefit is too prevent anything from Solas or Flemeth/Mythal.

this is why i love Loghain redemption is justice as far as I'm concerned,and given the fact that i strongly prefer mage as a class  i don't care about the Ferelden throne.

[Qun00]

quite difficult since i was not even into the BSN at the time.

Oh, not in BSN at all.

The thought alone is enough, wherever it may be voiced.

Such gloom! My choices! Never to see the light!

[Aren]

Being dead made it difficult to brag about killing an Archdemon.

 

For my Warden redemption is more valuable than self glorification.

[Qun00]

The other problem is that you indirectly become Flemeth's pawn.

This was Morrigan's mission from the beginning: To convince a grey warden to lay with her and perform the ritual.

But while she believed it to be her own goal, it merely was Flemeth's bidding.

Morrigan was manipulated into pursuing this, as Flemeth rubs it in her face during their reunion in DA:I.

[Akiza]

Have sex or die... Yeah, really bad risk/reward ratio there . And how in Andraste's name does it help the archedemon? It's dead. Or is the actual old god's soul that isn't even guilty of anything other than getting corrupted by an evil force against its will that you want dead too? That's foolish and horrible. I already don't like you much as a poster, and this post only fueled that opinion.

Have sex or die,typical childish way of thinking,sorry is not even the case with the redemption.

I find foolish and horrible as well as disgusting to force a non consenting child with blood magic to be the host of another being just  for Morrigan self centered ego(but then again i think very poorly of this character,is a total mess)

His behaviour is altered,his mind is altered,and also there are still so many points of failure with both Solas and Flemeth.

Yes bad risk/reward especially after the event of DAI where if you haven't noticed yet the poor child was used twice by both Morrigan and FLemeth

(in another blood magic ritual,after which he have felt lonely),and i find this incredibly disgusting especially because is all Morrigan's fault.

if i would have been in kieran shoes,when i would grow up i would be extremely upset and disappointed with my own mother.

Yes the life of a GW is worth well spent if is meant to shut the mouth of an old god,Thedas don't need them.

and yes i completly agree with Qun00 the warden who perform the DR become somehow FLemeth pawn,is not my fault if Morrigan was stupid enough to believe that was possible to outsmart her mother,then again i wish to make an huge thank you to Loghain.

[Ieldra]

1. I don't agree that the DR is the more interesting choice, but the DR could still lead to something meaningful. It isn't null. It's just that we don't see the end result yet.

 

2. I think Ieldra was only giving his personal impression of it.

 

3. His point was that during the time when you had to decide between the DR or not, he believed it might grant humans some ancient power. He fully recognizes that this did not pan out, that Kieran gained nothing and Flemeth took the power for herself eventually.

 

4. Well good for you then, you don't like Morrigan. Ieldra does.

You summed up my viewpoint almost perfectly.

 

My main in-world motivation to follow Morrigans advice was indeed the possibility that there was some secret power and/or knowledge to be gained, not necessarily for my Warden since Morrigan's son would have it, but in the long term, for humans (as opposed to spirits or gods) in general. I passionately believe in "stealing power from the gods", meaning acquiring powers that enable us to change our natures should we so desire. That didn't work out, which isn't at all surprising given the conservative attitude of Bioware's stories towards such things, but in-world my Warden couldn't know that, and acted according to the philosophy I infused into him.

 

My main out-of-world motivation is twofold: first, I don't like heroic sacrifices, and I find that the DR is the more interesting outcome.

 

And lastly, I see no reason to not take Morrigan at face value. Why would I reject her just because what she wants has some benefits for her as well as me? It would've been much more suspicious had she (or anyone else) claimed to get no benefit out of their suggested plans. I don't think people are proactively altruistic as a rule.    

 

Edit:

While the term "old god soul" suggests something different, if you continue to ask Morrigan about specifics of the ritual you will come to know that it's not a case of possession. Her child will be a human child with some strange aspects, not an Old God in a human body. Which turns out to be perfectly true.

[Aren]

You summed up my viewpoint almost perfectly.

 

My main in-world motivation to follow Morrigans advice was indeed the possibility that there was some secret power and/or knowledge to be gained, not necessarily for my Warden since Morrigan's son would have it, but in the long term, for humans (as opposed to spirits or gods) in general. I passionately believe in "stealing power from the gods", meaning acquiring powers that enable us to change our natures should we so desire. That didn't work out, which isn't at all surprising given the conservative attitude of Bioware's stories towards such things, but in-world my Warden couldn't know that, and acted according to the philosophy I infused into him.

 

My main out-of-world motivation is twofold: first, I don't like heroic sacrifices, and I find that the DR is the more interesting outcome.

 

And lastly, I see no reason to not take Morrigan at face value. Why would I reject her just because what she wants has some benefits for her as well as me? It would've been much more suspicious had she (or anyone else) claimed to get no benefit out of their suggested plans. I don't think people are proactively altruistic as a rule.    

 

Edit:

While the term "old god soul" suggests something different, if you continue to ask Morrigan about specifics of the ritual you will come to know that it's not a case of possession. Her child will be a human child with some strange aspects, not an Old God in a human body. Which turns out to be perfectly true.

Morrigan clearly stated that the child would have been born with the soul of the old god,it was already clear to me that the will of the ancient being would have been preserved with his power as well,so is very close to a case of possession,is power at the cost of freedom on an unborn innocent that can't say no.

 

I for one never did see the Dark Ritual and the creation of the OGB as good. 

[Aren]

Yes, never mind that all the old gods being destroyed could have (strongly hinted) unforeseen consequences. Let's just do that and hope nothing bad happens due to your extremely idiotic shortsightedness in thinking that every ancient god dying can't POSSIBLY result in anything bad, there's absolutely NO WAY that could bite you in the ass.

 

Ugh... I'm done responding to your posts. They annoy me and have too much ignorance to be worth the effort in typing a reply to them .

Thank you for the ignorant, your lordship.

 

ps 

Aveline way of thinking doesn't work with the Loghain redemption,o you tell me you were concerned about Loghain's life? I'm sure that in your world state he never get  that far

[Ash Wind]

All the way with the DR... you get to get another night with Morri in a freaky, kinky ritual and get an odd talking little tyke to boot. The US.... seriously... you die for next to nothing... take a bow, you save the world from an odd talking little boy that has less relevence to the big picture than Idle Dwarf (the dude in Dust Town who gets you Leliana's Nug). Yes, I know, you want to pretend it had a higher meaning...  but seriously, you literally die for nothing... DR Wardens who go through the Eluvian get a Family. Love/Family >>> Pointless... oh wait I am a total hero... But I am totally dead... aka don't you dare bring the Warden back, because I died, this must be recognized....

[Cz-99]

I picked DR so that I could do Awakening and WH with my original Warden and not an Orlesian scumbag Warden.

[sandoval]

First time my warden died. Later playthroughs Loghain took the blow.

 

The dark ritual is totally out of the question. Absolutely positively not going to happen. No never. All my grey wardens knew was: old god + darkspawn = blight. Grey wardens don't gamble with the lives of millions. Not after all this. Archdemon needs to die. Dead, gone, extinguished for ever.

 

I can't even understand how someone can justify a grey warden choosing the dark ritual (without meta-gaming). It's so absurd.

[Ieldra]

I can't even understand how someone can justify a grey warden choosing the dark ritual (without meta-gaming). It's so absurd.

Old God != Archdemon, that's the core of it. Morrigan says the old god's soul will be untainted by the Blight, and that this is worth preserving. If you're a gullible Andrastian you may believe the Old Gods were all evil even before the Blights, then of course you'll kill them regardless, but if you have doubts about the Chantry-approved version of history you have reason enough to do otherwise. At least, believing Morrigan isn't less reasonable than believing the doctrine of the dominant faith. It may be more reasonable, actually, since Morrigan doesn't have an ideological axe to grind with the Old Gods. 

 

Also, may I remind you that you didn't have a choice about becoming a Grey Warden. How much you identify with their goals and methods is a matter of preference. I'd say nobody sane would want another Blight, but that's where the common cause ends.

[sandoval]

But based on the information the grey warden had at the time, there was no reason to believe that darkspawn would not hunt this reborn old god, turn him into an archdemon and start another blight. And there was also the risk that Morrigan was wrong or lying, or that something goes wrong and whatnot. And given the disastrous consequences of the blight, this risk is inacceptable. Even the most unwilling Grey Warden would see this.  

 

When Morrigan made this offer, I could only shake my head in disbelief. It's not even an option.

Edit: tbh, I find it weak that the game doesn't give us more compelling reasons to accept the ritual.

 

 

 

 

(I admit, I don't like Morrigan)

[Qun00]

Old God != Archdemon, that's the core of it. Morrigan says the old god's soul will be untainted by the Blight, and that this is worth preserving. If you're a gullible Andrastian you may believe the Old Gods were all evil even before the Blights, then of course you'll kill them regardless, but if you have doubts about the Chantry-approved version of history you have reason enough to do otherwise. At least, believing Morrigan isn't less reasonable than believing the doctrine of the dominant faith. It may be more reasonable, actually, since Morrigan doesn't have an ideological axe to grind with the Old Gods.

Also, may I remind you that you didn't have a choice about becoming a Grey Warden. How much you identify with their goals and methods is a matter of preference. I'd say nobody sane would want another Blight, but that's where the common cause ends.

To be fair, they WERE evil before the Blights.

Do you remember who first taught Tevinter magisters how to do their sacrifice rituals and blood magic in general?

The Old Gods also encouraged them to nurture the same kind of mindset the Venatori have today. That is, to pursue godhood.

[Aren]

But based on the information the grey warden had at the time, there was no reason to believe that darkspawn would not hunt this reborn old god, turn him into an archdemon and start another blight. And there was also the risk that Morrigan was wrong or lying, or that something goes wrong and whatnot. And given the disastrous consequences of the blight, this risk is inacceptable. Even the most unwilling Grey Warden would see this.  

 

When Morrigan made this offer, I could only shake my head in disbelief. It's not even an option.

Edit: tbh, I find it weak that the game doesn't give us more compelling reasons to accept the ritual.

 

 

 

 

(I admit, I don't like Morrigan)

This is exactly what i believe,and could we please stop to use the Andrastianism as an esplicable reason to want the Old God dead,who cares about the Andrastianism we are referring to Thedas security which has priority especially when thousand of people are already dead because of this old god ,and let someone like Morriganwho blabb about "change on the world",or " the ritual is a means to an end" something that she has deliberately hidden in Redclieffe have this power?

one day i will make ONE male Cousland warden stupid enough to go with her through the mirror

Yes the old gods (all of them) such as Andhoral "the god of the chains and the slaves" or Zazikale "the old god of chaos" are nothing but a trouble.

 

edit i agree terribly unbalanced save 1 single warden for 1 old god  not worth it, i wish to gain something, my life is something that i already possess.

 you save the world from an odd talking little boy that has less relevence to the big picture than Idle Dwarf 

I don't understand on why people focus their attention on Kieran,he was just a vessel for the Old god,he does not possess the soul anymore,he was nothing but an instrument for the terrible overpowering of Flemeth and Solas.

Flemeth absorb both power and soul of the Old god with another blood magic ritual in a scene in which fountains of blood are involved.

Not worth it,save one life(Loghain) to become Flemeth's pawn is not an option,when i can easily solve everything at Denerim.

Underestimate Flemeth,and completely forget about her Mythal dark side?  

"revenge at any cost" 

Under her jokes  i'm sure that she hide a great anger,to the point to use both her daughter and nephew to accomplish this.

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[Ieldra]

To be fair, they WERE evil before the Blights.

Do you remember who first taught Tevinter magisters how to do their sacrifice rituals and blood magic in general?

The Old Gods also encouraged them to nurture the same kind of mindset the Venatori have today. That is, to pursue godhood.

That's what the Chantry's mythology says. Nobody really knows who came up with the idea of blood magic first, that's even acknowledged in World of Thedas. I think it's quite possible someone figured this out on their own. After all, it is a rather plausible and straightforward idea in a world like Thedas. And lastly, I can only repeat that while human sacrifice is evil, blood magic per se is not.

About the Seven, we don't know how they got the idea of going to the black city, and I contend that aspiring to god-like powers is not evil per se as well. Corypheus appeared to believe that it was Dumat speaking to him, but if I believed everyone who claimed a god was speaking to them my world would look rather strange.

This all comes down to the fact that I don't believe anything rooted in religion without independent evidence. Religion regularly twists and falsifies historical facts in order to promote itself and make itself look good (not that it's unqiue in that, but people appear to be way more gullible if it's done by a religion). Once I didn't believe that a group of Tevinter magisters caused the Blights after going to the Golden/Black city, but after DA2:Legacy and DAI it would be unreasonable to deny that they existed, attempted what the story says and there's a connection between the Seven and the Blight. However, nothing about the nature of the Old Gods has been revealed yet in a similar way, and of course I also don't believe that an entity called The Maker was in any way involved. IMO the Seven just found something in the city that took hold in them, maybe they accepted it willingly into themselves believing they'd get god-like powers. Not unreasonably btw - the setup appears to me like an attempt to infect the world with something that would enable you to control it.

[Qun00]

Not just the Chantry. Tevinter believes in the same thing, though they would use a different choice of words.

As in the wiki: "Honorary Archon, Thalsian accredited his discovery of blood magic in -1595 Ancient to the Old God Dumat and established the first temples dedicated to the Old Gods to show his gratitude".

You're making this all about the Chantry when it doesn't need to be. The Maker was never even part of the discussion.

[Ieldra]

Not just the Chantry. Tevinter believes in the same thing, though they would use a different choice of words.

Have you ever come across a certain Claw of Dumat in the Fade?

Tevinter believes it for similar reasons. The fact remains that people believe this without having any idea about what really happened. And the Fade reflects what people believe, so why wouldn't we see a "Claw of Dumat" there.

Take the elven myths, for instance. The Dalish believed the valasslin were sacred, now we know they're slave markings. That's how radically history can be different from what people believe.

[SgtSteel91]

I did Dark Ritual with a romanced Morrigan. I thought it was interesting, I liked in Inquisition the three of them were happy together and Morrigan's scene with Flemeth. I thought that scene was a good character moment for her and showed how much she had changed since Origins. Also I'm interested in seeing where the Old God's soul comes into play; if it went to Solas or if it got sent through the Eluvian by Flemeth. I also don't like stories where the Hero dies and I liked Loghain's role in Inquisition (whether he dies or leads the Wardens). All in all, I liked where things lined up at the end of Origins, except pissing off Alistair by making him marry Anora and sparing Loghain.