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[Ieldra]

What i have come to realize is that this thread of 2015 is too flawed with the metagaming perspective,if i wish to see more genuine opinions i must go back to old topics about the DR of the 2009,and apparently after reading some of them i have just realize that people are too willing to change their horses based on what they see.

Standard method of rhetorics: if someone disagrees with you, say their opinion has been formed from an invalid perspective, or that they're inconsistent. What is it that makes you unable to accept that performing the DR is a valid choice?

BTW, the DR has always been my canonical choice, right from the first time my Wardens talked about it with Morrigan, way back in 2009.

[Qun00]

If Origins were a stand alone game, I wouldn't think twice and have a heroic death. Dying like a true Grey Warden.

But on the long run, the DR is a more interesting choice even if not the wisest at the time you do it.

I did DR because I thought it was worth a shot preserving the OG soul, but mostly because sacrifice is not giving your life ( or the other GW´s), but your soul. And that´s not something I accept as long as there´s an alternative (if there´s really a Maker it´s also a middle finger to him, a plus). If the OG causes trouble in the future then it´ll be dealt with for good, although without metagaming I expected the GW to be the one to do it, not some unrelated PC who stumbles upon it while dealing with other troubles. At least DAII failure likely means it won´t be some upstart human cardboard everybody adores despite being a total failure.

Well, you know what they say.

In peace, vigilance. In war, victory...

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Dark Ritual. Because as a male Warden, you get to kill two birds with one stone. With the Dark Ritual, you get to save your life and reproduce.

[Nixou]

On one hand, I find it hard for my character to fully support Morrigans ritual

 

 

It really depends on what kind of character your Warden is.

Mine is a manipulative, ambitious, self-serving brutish mage whose borderline sociopathy is barely kept in check by her circle education and with a mean, hypocritical streak: the kind of person who'll try the diplomatic approach first, but will always hope, deep down, that parleys will fail and she'll have an excuse to flex her magical muscle.

 

And to tell the truth, I find this type of personality fit rather elegantly with the way the series' story unfolds: given who mentored him and how she functioned Anders' descent into madness and suicidal extremism doesn't look like a character derailment but like a tragic yet logical development while I never cease to be amused every time NPCs display deference toward the "Hero of Ferelden", treating the unrepentant bully from my Origins & Awakening's playthrough as a gallant champion of the people.

 

So back to the topic at hand, the dark ritual doesn't feel counterintuitive in my Warden's case, in fact, it seems like the most logical choice given my Warden's personality:

 

She and Morrigan have rather similar personalities (Warden's more polite than Morrigan and also a tad more benevolent toward people who aren't trained killers), and became friends rather quickly despite a few disagreement here and there. And when Morrigan asked her to kill her mother, confirming that she was indeed a very powerful sorceress, well, my Warden didn't even care whether Morrigan was telling the truth, lying, or ensnared in a paranoid delusion of her own making: she fought Flemeth for the sheer atavistic joy of defeating a strong opponent and proving her own superiority.  

 

My Warden being self-serving, she clearly valued her own survival (another thing which fits nicely with the way the story unfolds after Origins: leaving Amaranthine and her duties as Warden-commander in order to find a cure for the taint -and therefore a way to increase her own lifespan? Of course she'd make that choice in a heartbeat) and the dark ritual provided an added guarantee.

 

 

Being manipulative and ambitious, she of course took full advantage of Alistair's clumsy hints of affection, since he's the less strong-willed of the potential paramours, and had convinced him to take the throne; so now she wasn't willing to lose the perks of having a puppy-eyed royal bedmate. Hey! she had pushed him on a throne he didn't want, in a political marriage he wasn't enthusiastic about, and then in a menage-a-trois he clearly had moral qualms about, so pushing him in Morrigan's bed didn't elicit much scruple: to kill a Archdemon, and to be the first to live to tell the tale was most certainly worth it.

[Gaia300]

I did DR because I thought it was worth a shot preserving the OG soul, but mostly because sacrifice is not giving your life ( or the other GW´s), but your soul. And that´s not something I accept as long as there´s an alternative (if there´s really a Maker it´s also a middle finger to him, a plus). If the OG causes trouble in the future then it´ll be dealt with for good, although without metagaming I expected the GW to be the one to do it, not some unrelated PC who stumbles upon it while dealing with other troubles. At least DAII failure likely means it won´t be some upstart human cardboard everybody adores despite being a total failure.

I just find amusing that people wish to give the middle finger to the Maker, ah he doesn't even care, provided that he exist of course.

The GW sacrifice is basically oblivion,and so what? I don't believe in after life so i'm not concerned about Alistair's fate,it was the best option,instead to risk a potential 6th blight or whatever stupid thing Solas or Flemeth will do for their love towards "the people".

In DA there are worse fate than the oblivion,like the elf guy into the Brecilian forest,live for the eternity with only a wisp of your soul trapped in a gem, he has begged me for the oblivion.

[Aren]

 

 

In DA there are worse fate than the oblivion,like the elf guy into the Brecilian forest,live for the eternity with only a wisp of your soul trapped in a gem, he has begged me for the oblivion.

 

Completely forgot about that guy,basically he was there alone since the time of Arlathan in an half life,

The horror....the horror

 

 

 

[Ieldra]

The less gods into the world the better,i dislike gods i just don't find a valid reason to make an exception for elven ones

I agree with that sentiment. However, I do it in a different way than you: a god is a god purely because of being regarded as one. There is no intrinsic attribute that makes something or someone a god. Thus, what I would like to see is for people to cease to create gods, i.e. regard other beings - whether they exist or not - as existentially relevant to their own lives, and having existential primacy.

Meanwhile, I appreciate that those powers exist, and do not want to kill them. We may have something to learn from them even if we don't worship them. As for the dangers of preserving it, we don't preserve the archdemon that causes the Blight, but the non-infected god-soul that existed before.
 

If redeem Loghain is a selfish and low thing to do (hey the warden and Alistair even survive in the process  ), but subject an unborn child to interfere with his essence and let him possessed and merged by the will of a lizard

Morrigan says the child will not be harmed. I've always taken that to mean it will not be possessed as well. You may not believe her and reject the DR for that reason, but that's what we're told. There is no evidence of possession.
 
 

I have just pointed out that in the other topic that i have read yesterday to make a sort of comparison
(the one of the 2009 ,a time in which i wasn't present in the forum) there wasn't the metagaming component,which is highly present in this one and that the DR was not apparently so popular or obvious choice evar!.
It was a time in which players were mostly concerned about the soul of the boy (especially it he was the Warden son), Flemeth which many have considered to be a demon not an elven goddess,and most important there was no WH,so basically Morrigan stayed true to the witches legends,that they were capable to "steal children" well, she is the mother but basically she run away with the Warden son without reveal her goal,which is from RP perspective a no,no for me.

I was mostly active in the ME section back then, so I don't recall what the prevalent mood was regarding the DR, but I've never thougt Flemeth was a demon, but more like a very powerful mage. She only only acquired the touch of the transcendent with DA2. As for Morrigan's goals, she wanted a child with a "god-soul", that was clear enough, and my main Warden agreed with her. He always thought he would meet her again (at that point, Witch Hunt wasn't out but the possibility for a re-union was clear because of the ring). I don't know what others were thinking back then, but I've always seen the DR as going off into unfamiliar territory, something that might look evil at first glance but was rather revealed as more of a jump into the unknown if you examined things more closely.
 

Personally the DR to me is valid just like the US both are extreme for my tastes many decided to take that route mostly because they arrived unprepared at the ending
(wish to kill the old god? You need to die, or wish to survive but you are forced to make a deal with Morrigan and be with her, togheter to be Flemeth's pawn and risk another blight,inacceptable),
but less valid for me than the Redemption ending,basically because this ending have the same benefit (your own survival) without any cost (give this power to Flemeth).

At that point, it was not clear how much of a stake Flemeth had in this, and how much you'd play into her hands if you did the DR. Also, you could kill her, and that you actually didn't wasn't clear until Witch Hunt. There was no risk of a new Blight since the god-soul would not be infected.

I agree that you can avoid the risks inherent in the DR and stay alive as well by making a companion kill the archdemon, and that's perfectly valid of course. However, my main Warden was not particularly risk-averse about these things, and he agreed with Morrigan's rationale.
 

Oh yes you can easly argue that spare Loghain is also metagaming,no actually it is not for my perspective,for the fact that riordan is standing in eamon's house all that time during the denerim quests and never bothers to mention that very important bit about killing the archdemon and dying. Sort of a tie in to the dark ritual.
All of the heated debate about loghain could be avoided for the most part if the game didn't insist on either or and if it gave you a persuade option to chill alistair and convince him that we can throw him at the archdemon....

It actually IS metagaming if you spare him for that reason, since when you make the decision about Loghain, you don't know yet that the Warden who strikes the killing blow will die. In the game where I did this, I did it on the rationale that I didn't want to kill Loghain for Anora's sake and the Wardens could use another warrior after the decimation Loghain caused. That this revealed Alistair as an immature twit was irrelevant, and that it made Loghain's redemption possible is a lucky twist. Of course, we all make decisions for the outcomes now and then if we know what they are. We can't avoid that knowledge influencing our decisions, but for me an in-world rationale is nonetheless necessary.

For the sake of avoiding the dilemma "DR or US", it was only important that there is another Warden who could strike the killing blow. If Alistair is present, that being him would follow Warden traditions, so I wouldn't have a problem making him do it. If Loghain is present, it's his redemption so that's ok, too. In the end, however, I prefer it if nobody dies. That's one reason why I tend to favor the DR.

[Aren]

Meanwhile, I appreciate that those powers exist, and do not want to kill them. We may have something to learn from them even if we don't worship them. As for the dangers of preserving it, we don't preserve the archdemon that causes the Blight, but the non-infected god-soul that existed before.
 
Morrigan says the child will not be harmed. I've always taken that to mean it will not be possessed as well. You may not believe her and reject the DR for that reason, but that's what we're told. There is no evidence of possession.
 
 

The non infected soul,is capable to issue a song that force the darkspawn to look over it,who do i know that this child would have not been hunted again?

Or worse that the old god would have helped somehow the other siblings in their prison?

The song is just a precondition of a sleeping old god not of one that is awake who can control this (i know this thanks to Corypheus in DAII but it is too late to go back)

The fact that  she say that the child will not be harmed can mean many thing,afterall harm someone who doesn't exist yet is pretty difficult,but still the DR is meant to alter his behaviour in the long run (two will, one body) not just to grant to him some power,actually in fact i believe that Kieran was never in control of this power in such a young age.

Morrigan was clueless that the soul was removable,with another blood ritual that Flemeth has never taught to her of course 

Also i do not approve in preserving powers that do not have a counterforce,for examples in the DA setting, there is a sort of  balance that was developed over time: 

For an old god/elven god you have basically nothing,and i'm sure that they would not be so kind to share with you their knowledge

(especially stupid bald elves ,who continue to jabber on how important are the old gods for the world without provide  reason).

Also i do believe that things happen most of the time for a reason,for certain i'm not willing to believe that suddendly 7/8 big dragons for pure accident get trapped underground,just as i do believe that an entity called the Maker was never involved,i don't find a valid reason to release them into the world.

So far the only one who has done something good for the world among these ancient being is the wisp of Mythal.

[Nerevar-as]

There are no reasons, because nature doesn't care for them. Pointless looking for a high guiding power outside the player's reach.

[Vorathrad]

Meanwhile, I appreciate that those powers exist, and do not want to kill them. We may have something to learn from them even if we don't worship them. As for the dangers of preserving it, we don't preserve the archdemon that causes the Blight, but the non-infected god-soul that existed before.

 

If there had been a way of preserving the OGS without handing it over to Morrigan, I'd have certainly considered doing the Dark Ritual. For all I detest her character, I agree when she says in DAI that wonders are not so common in this world that they should be destroyed without thinking; but she doesn't want to just preserve these wonders, she wants to use them for her and acquire their power to further her own goals that she never discloses. So giving her a child with the soul of an Old God, fully within her power and influence for being the mother of its vessel, and that moreover she takes away to nobody knows where to do nobody knows what? Nope.

[diaspora2k5]

Don't do the ritual and sacrifice Loghain while making Alistair king. Both Alistair and I get to survive, I get to kill Loghain, and all without a surviving Old God.

[Ieldra]

Don't do the ritual and sacrifice Loghain while making Alistair king. Both Alistair and I get to survive, I get to kill Loghain, and all without a surviving Old God.

If you recruit Loghain, Alistair leaves and can't become king. At least I've never heard of a way through the Landsmeet where Alistair stays if you recruit Loghain.

[Aren]

If you recruit Loghain, Alistair leaves and can't become king. At least I've never heard of a way through the Landsmeet where Alistair stays if you recruit Loghain.

Alistair don't need to be in your party to become a king,Loghain can be recruited and Alistair can be forced to become a king but he need to be hardened,he will still be there at Denerim but "off screen" ,and at the post coronation after the redemption ending

(unless you was referring specifically to the possibility to have them both at the same time into the party,which is impossible without cheating))

Spoiler

[Secret Rare]

If there had been a way of preserving the OGS without handing it over to Morrigan, I'd have certainly considered doing the Dark Ritual. For all I detest her character, I agree when she says in DAI that wonders are not so common in this world that they should be destroyed without thinking; but she doesn't want to just preserve these wonders, she wants to use them for her and acquire their power to further her own goals that she never discloses. So giving her a child with the soul of an Old God, fully within her power and influence for being the mother of its vessel, and that moreover she takes away to nobody knows where to do nobody knows what? Nope.

After the events of DAI i have come to realize that Flemeth purpose was the AD soul,not to kidnap or possess the child who was just a vessel.

Flemeth managed to teach this ritual to Morrigan i believe in few days (not sure)

 (or maybe one day).

During the event of Ostagar,or more likely when the GW were unconsciousness in her hut, afterall she may be a goddess but she can't predict that our wardens would have been on the top of that tower,she teach this to Morrigan when she capture at least one or two suitable wardens,otherwise it wouldn't make sense to me.

Too bad that she have decided to not to teach me this ritual personally,afterall i believe that the ritual can work at reversal(but i'm unsure) as well with a female GW and a non-GW male (Fiona child is not a darkspawn... )

(Zevran my romance interest,the OGB would have been awesome with his hair)

With my as the mother and Zevran the father of the OGB? Of course it would have been the DR  for my canon,a must,the run away to Antiva  not that cold place that is Orlais.

ah too bad it will always be a dream......

[Ieldra]

Alistair don't need to be in your party to become a king,Loghain can be recruited and Alistair can be forced to become a king but he need to be hardened,he will still be there at Denerim but "off screen" ,and at the post coronation after the redemption ending

(unless you was referring specifically to the possibility to have them both at the same time into the party,which is impossible without cheating))

Spoiler

Interesting. I didn't know that - I always got the "wandering drunk" outcome in the two games where I recruited Loghain. Odd, that - I tend to harden Alistair, I must've failed that or by accident, these were also the games where I decided not to do it. Or are there other prerequisites for this outcome?

 

So yeah....for those who do the DR only to survive and otherwise don't care for it, this is a perfect alternative. From a storytelling point of view, Loghain's redemption by killing the Archdemon is perhaps the most dramatically appealing outcome. Not for me though, since I do the DR for more than just surviving.

[Akiza]

 

 

(Zevran my romance interest,the OGB would have been awesome with his hair)

With my as the mother and Zevran the father of the OGB? Of course it would have been the DR  for my canon,a must,the run away to Antiva  not that cold place that is Orlais.

ah too bad it will always be a dream......

 

It would have been awesome i think for a female Warden to strike the final blow and even absorb the essence without perish,but Flemeth would have come back to hunt your warden.

also i do not know if the ritual work with female Warden

[Vorathrad]

 

After the events of DAI i have come to realize that Flemeth purpose was the AD soul,not to kidnap or possess the child who was just a vessel.

 

I didn't mention Flemeth or possession Actually if it was Flemeth the one to keep the OGS (as she does in the end), I'd be much more willing to do the DR, what I would never do is put it in Morrigan's hands. Not only because I don't like her character, but because I'm under the impression that half the time she thinks she knows so much what she's doing when actually she doesn't have a clue. And because she's so greedy for power, specially power that no one else has. I don't think she'd possess Kieran, but him being her son and being raised almost only by her, she has great control over him.

 

Given that the canon ending in Bioware's timeline is the US, I don't think Flemeth's purpose was getting the OGS.

[riverbanks]

From a storytelling point of view, Loghain's redemption by killing the Archdemon is perhaps the most dramatically appealing outcome.

 

Said it on page one, will say it again: Alistair marries Anora and they rule together, uniting the lines that liberated Ferelden to lead it forward; the Warden gives their life killing the archdemon to save the world without dooming it to an uncertain fate, becoming immortalized in their sacrifice as a true hero; and finally Loghain dies in the Fade to save Hawke and the Inquisitor ten years later, after having earned his redemption. Most dramatically appealing narrative progression for all characters involved.

[SgtSteel91]

Said it on page one, will say it again: Alistair marries Anora and they rule together, uniting the lines that liberated Ferelden to lead it forward; the Warden gives their life killing the archdemon to save the world without dooming it to an uncertain fate, becoming immortalized in their sacrifice as a true hero; and finally Loghain dies in the Fade to save Hawke and the Inquisitor ten years later, after having earned his redemption. Most dramatically appealing narrative progression for all characters involved.

 

I agree about this chain of events even when I regret pissing Alistair off, though I still prefer the DR because of that uncertainty. Like the Dragon Age got its name in the lore because beings previously thought lost, like Dragons or Elven Gods, are re-emerging so I think I'd be neat if people thought the Old God was dead when it's not. And I'm just curious to see where that story thread goes (even if it's off a cliff). I also think doing the DR when romancing Morrigan is fitting. Like you said I think it's the most dramatically appealing narrative progression for them in that context coupled with going through the Eluvian with her in Witch Hunt. And I kind of like Loghain's sacrifice in the Fade more than the Redeemer ending. But I can see the appeal of US if I wasn't doing a Morrigan romance.

[riverbanks]

I also think it's fitting to do the DR when romancing Morrigan, which happened in my main run. (...) But I can see the appeal of US if I wasn't doing a Morrigan romance.

 

Yeah, I can definitely agree that in the specific scenario where you're a male Warden and romancing Morrigan, the DR is the most appealing/only logical option. In that case, there's really no credible reason to not do it, and go head-on into the mirror with her later.

 

For me the DR was never an option because I was playing a female Warden, and both Alistair and Loghain beg you not to force them to sleep with Morrigan (actually beg you, as in "please don't make me do this" kind of beg), turning the whole situation so borderline non-con that I couldn't go through with it. It was then a very pleasant surprise that, after all is said and done now, the scenario that played out in my world state became so emotionally fulfilling for all the people involved. After reading Last Flight, I'm really satisfied with my Warden standing with the likes of Garahel, and all the Wardens who made the Ultimate Sacrifice before her. And after playing Inquisition, I'm really satisfied with how efficient and agreeable Alistair and Anora turned out as co-rulers, and with how Loghain's arc with the Wardens came full circle, from deeply resenting them in The Calling to trying to eliminate them in Origins to becoming one himself and dying in their name in the end, in Inquisition. It was honestly so good, I wouldn't change it for any other scenario now.

[diaspora2k5]

If you recruit Loghain, Alistair leaves and can't become king. At least I've never heard of a way through the Landsmeet where Alistair stays if you recruit Loghain.

Not if Alistair is hardened and is forced to be King.

 

edit: Either way, coercing Alistair/Loghain to sleep with her seemed a little messed up. I'm not sure I care to save Old Gods; I'd honestly rather see them all dead.

[SgtSteel91]

 I was playing a female Warden, and both Alistair and Loghain beg you not to force them to sleep with Morrigan (actually beg you, as in "please don't make me do this" kind of beg), , turning the whole situation so borderline non-con that I couldn't go through with it.

 

True, and, I remember right, I like that it gets turned around in the Morrigan romance where she's almost begging you to do it because she doesn't want you to die.

[Gaia300]

Loghain is a good addiction to the game at that point,mainly because after the Landsmeet AListair dialogue option are for 95% already explored.

Maybe i will change my canon from Warden commander to redemption,is all the same to me,so long as that freaking god of beauty is dead (completly dead).

[Aren]

Yeah, I can definitely agree that in the specific scenario where you're a male Warden and romancing Morrigan, the DR is the most appealing/only logical option. In that case, there's really no credible reason to not do it, and go head-on into the mirror with her later.

 

 

I played with a male warden,but honestly romance or not  my warden was not tempted,Morrigan offer was inacceptable,especially in a romance.

just because i'm in a romance with her this doesn't mean that i must be her pawn,and i utterly dislike being used like an Enabler/tool.

RP

Using child birth as currency,lose a son, mess with his soul,risk with Flemeth,gamble the world.

Metagaming

procure nightmares to your son,put him in danger against Flemeth,he is deprived from it and he feel lonely,give the soul potentially to Solas

All this elements give to me a significant pause

A good warden father isn't supposed to play with his own son,like Morrigan do all the time,she seem to threat the OGB like a sort of doll or trophy,always jabber about his destiny(especially in WH),that is really annoying

I'm perfectly fine with Human Kieran who do not see all of these things,and is more charming than the OGB.plus Solas and Flemeth can say Sayonara to the AD soul

win-win especially for Kieran.

[diaspora2k5]

 

I played with a male warden,but honestly romance or not  my warden was not tempted,Morrigan offer was inacceptable,especially in a romance.

just because i'm in a romance with her this doesn't mean that i must be her pawn,and i utterly dislike being used like an Enabler/tool.

RP

Using child birth as currency,lose a son, mess with his soul,risk with Flemeth,gamble the world.

Metagaming

procure nightmares to your son,put him in danger against Flemeth,he is deprived from it and he feel lonely,give the soul potentially to Solas

All this elements give to me a significant pause

A good warden father isn't supposed to play with his own son,like Morrigan do all the time,she seem to threat the OGB like a sort of doll or trophy,always jabber about his destiny(especially in WH),that is really annoying

I'm perfectly fine with Human Kieran who do not see all of these things,and is more charming than the OGB.plus Solas and Flemeth can say Sayonara to the AD soul

win-win especially for Kieran.

 

Besides all that, I'm leery on allowing an Old God to survive. These things cause Blights, so I'm not clear as to what the value is in letting Urthemiel live.